bueno
In a class by himself
And only AIU could make Fennis give me aOnly AIU could make me agree with Fennis.
on the more 
on the dumping nuclear waste into the ocean
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Meltdown in Japan's Reactors (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter David Dodds
- Start date
⚡DEADHEAD⚡
Footballguy
Come on bueno. You don't know the boundaries of your knowledge. You google reactor, read words like "core catcher" and throw it out there to capture come credibility. Then, it backfires. You don't have to know it all. We know you don't.
bueno
In a class by himself
The Mid-Atlantic Ridge is a spreading center. Magma rises up at the ridge, pushing the sides of the ridge away from each other. It has active volcanoes, black smokers, hot springs and lots of circulation of hot water. The Marianas Trench on the other hand....
bueno
In a class by himself
Nice try. Not where that came from though.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sorry, I still don't know what this means. I don't know if you're trying to be mysterious, or if you think I know more than I do. Either way, I'm still confused. Can you just answer my question? (Bolded.)
bueno
In a class by himself
I'm really frustrated. Not enough information from anyone to know exactly what is going on. So it is not me trying to be mysterious. It is just that not knowing where the breach is, how much fuel we are talking about, what the water table is like beneath the plant, what direction the wind is blowing, etc. You are asking a question that I can't answer fairly.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
If Japan has to entomb the thing, it's a big blow to nuclear power IMO.
bueno
In a class by himself
It is already that.
PIK95
Footballguy
David Dodds
Administrator
Wikipedia doing a good job keeping track of everything:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents
more on the 400mSV in this document:
The morning JST on 15 March 2011,Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano announced that according to the Fukushima prefectural government, the hourly radiation from the reactor unit 3 reached 400 mSv (400,000μSv) per hour
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukushima_I_nuclear_accidents
more on the 400mSV in this document:
The morning JST on 15 March 2011,Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano announced that according to the Fukushima prefectural government, the hourly radiation from the reactor unit 3 reached 400 mSv (400,000μSv) per hour
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David Dodds
Administrator
Nikkei Flash Crash - Index is down 12%. Nasdaq, Dow, S&P all predicted to be down 2-3% right now in the morning.
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dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Based on what I've read, the consensus seems to be that the worst-case meltdown scenario for the Fukushima nuclear plant would be somewhat worse than Three Mile Island (where minimal radiation was released and no ill-effects recorded for humans or the environment) and much less than what resulted from Chernobyl.
Here's a good summary from a CNN article online:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/03/14/japan.radiation.sickness/index.html?hpt=T1
Here's a good summary from a CNN article online:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/03/14/japan.radiation.sickness/index.html?hpt=T1
bueno
In a class by himself
Nice find. I'm still reading through the article and some of the citations, but for Tim, this link shows a cross section of the reactor. The wetwell tarus is equivalent to a core catcher, though I have never heard that term for it before.What they call the suppression pool later in that article is also a core catcher of a type.
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JbizzleMan
Footballguy
This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
bueno
In a class by himself
Excluding Chernobyl, more people die annually in coal mines than have ever died in nuclear power plant accidents.This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
unfortunately that won't be the message everyone gets from this, no matter what the conclusion is. Certainly it's distressing and heartbreaking for the people of Japan but this is pretty much the absolute worst case scenario for a reactor to go through. But it's a gigantic smoking gun for politicians (with $ funnels from oil companies) to point to and destroy any movement towards nuclear energy in our near future. Oil companies must be walking around with giant hardons right now.Excluding Chernobyl, more people die annually in coal mines than have ever died in nuclear power plant accidents.This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
bueno
In a class by himself
Solar and wind companies even more so - and their "corporate welfare" is a much larger percentage of their revenues than oil companies get. Not to hijack the link, but I'm betting the cause and effect we will see for other green energies will be larger than for oil.unfortunately that won't be the message everyone gets from this, no matter what the conclusion is. Certainly it's distressing and heartbreaking for the people of Japan but this is pretty much the absolute worst case scenario for a reactor to go through. But it's a gigantic smoking gun for politicians (with $ funnels from oil companies) to point to and destroy any movement towards nuclear energy in our near future. Oil companies must be walking around with giant hardons right now.Excluding Chernobyl, more people die annually in coal mines than have ever died in nuclear power plant accidents.This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Bueno, it's not the death toll, its the destruction of the environment. I think that's why a nuclear catastrophe is so poignant for humans. It's the biological destruction a portion of the earth for 10s of thousands of year solely due to our own folly. Sure there are other situations that are similar, but none that takes an "invisible" toll on the biology of the area.
timschochet
Footballguy
Can you be more specific about this? What toll are you referring to? And can it possibly be as damaging, long term, as coal and oil have been to the environment and biodiversity?
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I agree w/ bueno here. The biggest net benefactor (economically) is carbon neutral, sustainable energy technology. Money will be diverted from nuke to "green".
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I would hope for that to be the case, but solar and wind don't have the money to steer legislation that oil does. And that's a vast understatement.Solar and wind companies even more so - and their "corporate welfare" is a much larger percentage of their revenues than oil companies get. Not to hijack the link, but I'm betting the cause and effect we will see for other green energies will be larger than for oil.unfortunately that won't be the message everyone gets from this, no matter what the conclusion is. Certainly it's distressing and heartbreaking for the people of Japan but this is pretty much the absolute worst case scenario for a reactor to go through. But it's a gigantic smoking gun for politicians (with $ funnels from oil companies) to point to and destroy any movement towards nuclear energy in our near future. Oil companies must be walking around with giant hardons right now.Excluding Chernobyl, more people die annually in coal mines than have ever died in nuclear power plant accidents.This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
What's the destruction to the environment? At this point it's all conjecture.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I'm talking about a Chernobyl type situation, where there is a largish section of earth where no humans are allowed to visit due to radiation effects. Have coal and oil wreaked more havoc overall? Yes. But that that's a cumulative thing. A nuclear catastrophe is a singular event which transforms the earth for a long* time.*probably forever in terms of human civilization
bueno
In a class by himself
Sorry the death toll is less important to you, but seriously, nuclear is nowhere near the kind of environmental destruction that coal is - especially if you believe in AGW.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Oh no doubt. I'm thinking worst case scenario where the core gets spewed into the atmosphere or over the ground.
bueno
In a class by himself
But they do have the political clout and a motivated following.I would hope for that to be the case, but solar and wind don't have the money to steer legislation that oil does. And that's a vast understatement.Solar and wind companies even more so - and their "corporate welfare" is a much larger percentage of their revenues than oil companies get. Not to hijack the link, but I'm betting the cause and effect we will see for other green energies will be larger than for oil.unfortunately that won't be the message everyone gets from this, no matter what the conclusion is. Certainly it's distressing and heartbreaking for the people of Japan but this is pretty much the absolute worst case scenario for a reactor to go through. But it's a gigantic smoking gun for politicians (with $ funnels from oil companies) to point to and destroy any movement towards nuclear energy in our near future. Oil companies must be walking around with giant hardons right now.Excluding Chernobyl, more people die annually in coal mines than have ever died in nuclear power plant accidents.This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I'm not arguing that a nuclear catastrophe is "worse" for humans or the earth than usage of fossil fuels. Rather, I'm discussing the psychologial implications of a nuclear catastrophe on the scale of Chernobyl. Will the Fukushima disaster be on this scale? Unlikely, but it will still have a deep psychological impact on humans.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
I'm not a nuclear expert but every single nuclear expert I've ever heard/read has stated Chernobyl should in no way, shape, or form be used to judge nuclear power.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
That's a pretty awful argument. We shouldn't use something that is better than the alternative simply because the mostly unfounded fears might give us nightmares?
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Honestly, I never thought that something on the magnitude of this disaster could ever happen in Japan. I would have bet money on Japan's nuclear expertise winning this battle at the outset. I think we all would have.
bueno
In a class by himself
Hyperbole. First, it is very unlikely that this will result in that kind of accident. Second, that has not even happened at Hiroshima.
timschochet
Footballguy
Don't forget natural gas.Solar and wind companies even more so - and their "corporate welfare" is a much larger percentage of their revenues than oil companies get. Not to hijack the link, but I'm betting the cause and effect we will see for other green energies will be larger than for oil.unfortunately that won't be the message everyone gets from this, no matter what the conclusion is. Certainly it's distressing and heartbreaking for the people of Japan but this is pretty much the absolute worst case scenario for a reactor to go through. But it's a gigantic smoking gun for politicians (with $ funnels from oil companies) to point to and destroy any movement towards nuclear energy in our near future. Oil companies must be walking around with giant hardons right now.Excluding Chernobyl, more people die annually in coal mines than have ever died in nuclear power plant accidents.This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I would love to be wrong, but I don't see it getting past the Great Wall of Oil Money anytime soon.But they do have the political clout and a motivated following.I would hope for that to be the case, but solar and wind don't have the money to steer legislation that oil does. And that's a vast understatement.Solar and wind companies even more so - and their "corporate welfare" is a much larger percentage of their revenues than oil companies get. Not to hijack the link, but I'm betting the cause and effect we will see for other green energies will be larger than for oil.unfortunately that won't be the message everyone gets from this, no matter what the conclusion is. Certainly it's distressing and heartbreaking for the people of Japan but this is pretty much the absolute worst case scenario for a reactor to go through. But it's a gigantic smoking gun for politicians (with $ funnels from oil companies) to point to and destroy any movement towards nuclear energy in our near future. Oil companies must be walking around with giant hardons right now.Excluding Chernobyl, more people die annually in coal mines than have ever died in nuclear power plant accidents.This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I'm not advocating a position here. You guys want to pin that on me, and that's not at all what I'm saying.I was merely making a point on the psychology of the disaster and what it means for the future of energy.
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
What has been the magnitude of this disaster?
bueno
In a class by himself
I will agree with the psychological impact this will have, but don't ask me to believe that it is rational behavior.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I never said it was rational. When confronted with this sort of thing, humans are rarely rational.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I don't know, and I don't think we will know for a while.
bueno
In a class by himself
I think they would have if they had fuel, water, unfettered access, undamaged equipment, etc. They didn't have a chance.
timschochet
Footballguy
fixed
Dr. Awesome
Footballguy
bueno
In a class by himself
I think natural gas is our best bet, but because it is a fossil fuel it won't get the support in some quarters, even though it burns cleaner than gasoline.Don't forget natural gas.Solar and wind companies even more so - and their "corporate welfare" is a much larger percentage of their revenues than oil companies get. Not to hijack the link, but I'm betting the cause and effect we will see for other green energies will be larger than for oil.unfortunately that won't be the message everyone gets from this, no matter what the conclusion is. Certainly it's distressing and heartbreaking for the people of Japan but this is pretty much the absolute worst case scenario for a reactor to go through. But it's a gigantic smoking gun for politicians (with $ funnels from oil companies) to point to and destroy any movement towards nuclear energy in our near future. Oil companies must be walking around with giant hardons right now.Excluding Chernobyl, more people die annually in coal mines than have ever died in nuclear power plant accidents.This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Your saying that at the outset of this, you'd see multiple containment buildings ruptured and the likely meltdown of multiple cores? I didn't.
bueno
In a class by himself
The governor will pay me 10 times the cost of electrical power if I generate solar power and the feds will pay me 30% of my capital costs to build a wind farm. That's a lot of clout.I would love to be wrong, but I don't see it getting past the Great Wall of Oil Money anytime soon.But they do have the political clout and a motivated following.I would hope for that to be the case, but solar and wind don't have the money to steer legislation that oil does. And that's a vast understatement.Solar and wind companies even more so - and their "corporate welfare" is a much larger percentage of their revenues than oil companies get. Not to hijack the link, but I'm betting the cause and effect we will see for other green energies will be larger than for oil.unfortunately that won't be the message everyone gets from this, no matter what the conclusion is. Certainly it's distressing and heartbreaking for the people of Japan but this is pretty much the absolute worst case scenario for a reactor to go through. But it's a gigantic smoking gun for politicians (with $ funnels from oil companies) to point to and destroy any movement towards nuclear energy in our near future. Oil companies must be walking around with giant hardons right now.Excluding Chernobyl, more people die annually in coal mines than have ever died in nuclear power plant accidents.This is why nuclear power scares me. When something goes wrong, it really goes wrong.
bueno
In a class by himself
Even so, if the equipment hadn't been destroyed I think they would have been okay. What they are facing is like trying to put out a wildfire by drinking Bud and pissing on it.
Fennis
Footballguy
sounds like poor planning
bueno
In a class by himself
If something like this hit LA would you criticize the medical community for being unprepared?
bueno
In a class by himself
No.
