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Meltdown in Japan's Reactors

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per cnn: Japan has restricted sales of vegetables from the prefecture surrounding the earthquake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant following a ban on the sale of raw milk from the same region, the country's Health Ministry announced late Sunday.

Edited by Fennis

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Really have to go looking for Japan news on the major news websites now. I can only trust the media and assume that there is no longer any significant danger.

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Really have to go looking for Japan news on the major news websites now. I can only trust the media and assume that there is no longer any significant danger.

I'm not sure there ever was.

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Really have to go looking for Japan news on the major news websites now. I can only trust the media and assume that there is no longer any significant danger.

I'm not sure there ever was.
there was and still is (though news of getting power to some of the reactors is huge)...but it was never to the point of "there's huge leaks, radiation clouds, we're all gonna die"

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Japan's defense minister says the surface temperatures of all 6 reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant are lower than 100 degrees Celsius.

In a news conference on Sunday, Toshimi Kitazawa quoted an expert from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency as saying the data are very valuable because temperatures below 100 degrees confirm the existence of water in spent fuel rod storage pools.

Kitazawa said Self-Defense Forces officials measured the temperatures from a helicopter using an infrared device on Sunday for a second consecutive day. He said the surface temperature of the Number One reactor was 58 degrees Celsius, that of Number 2 stood at 35 degrees, Number 3 at 62 degrees, Number 4 at 42 degrees, Number 5 at 24 degrees, and Number 6 at 25 degrees.

He said the temperatures of Number 1, Number 3 and Number 4 reactors are believed to be the surface temperatures of the spent fuel rod storage pools. The buildings housing the containers of these three reactors were damaged.

Kitazawa said he was relieved to see the temperatures stay below 100 degrees for 2 days in a row. He said the public will also feel relieved.

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

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Japan's defense minister says the surface temperatures of all 6 reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant are lower than 100 degrees Celsius.In a news conference on Sunday, Toshimi Kitazawa quoted an expert from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency as saying the data are very valuable because temperatures below 100 degrees confirm the existence of water in spent fuel rod storage pools.Kitazawa said Self-Defense Forces officials measured the temperatures from a helicopter using an infrared device on Sunday for a second consecutive day. He said the surface temperature of the Number One reactor was 58 degrees Celsius, that of Number 2 stood at 35 degrees, Number 3 at 62 degrees, Number 4 at 42 degrees, Number 5 at 24 degrees, and Number 6 at 25 degrees.He said the temperatures of Number 1, Number 3 and Number 4 reactors are believed to be the surface temperatures of the spent fuel rod storage pools. The buildings housing the containers of these three reactors were damaged.Kitazawa said he was relieved to see the temperatures stay below 100 degrees for 2 days in a row. He said the public will also feel relieved.

crisis over?

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Japan's defense minister says the surface temperatures of all 6 reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant are lower than 100 degrees Celsius.In a news conference on Sunday, Toshimi Kitazawa quoted an expert from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency as saying the data are very valuable because temperatures below 100 degrees confirm the existence of water in spent fuel rod storage pools.Kitazawa said Self-Defense Forces officials measured the temperatures from a helicopter using an infrared device on Sunday for a second consecutive day. He said the surface temperature of the Number One reactor was 58 degrees Celsius, that of Number 2 stood at 35 degrees, Number 3 at 62 degrees, Number 4 at 42 degrees, Number 5 at 24 degrees, and Number 6 at 25 degrees.He said the temperatures of Number 1, Number 3 and Number 4 reactors are believed to be the surface temperatures of the spent fuel rod storage pools. The buildings housing the containers of these three reactors were damaged.Kitazawa said he was relieved to see the temperatures stay below 100 degrees for 2 days in a row. He said the public will also feel relieved.

crisis over?
I feel relieved. :shrug:

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Japan's defense minister says the surface temperatures of all 6 reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant are lower than 100 degrees Celsius.In a news conference on Sunday, Toshimi Kitazawa quoted an expert from the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency as saying the data are very valuable because temperatures below 100 degrees confirm the existence of water in spent fuel rod storage pools.Kitazawa said Self-Defense Forces officials measured the temperatures from a helicopter using an infrared device on Sunday for a second consecutive day. He said the surface temperature of the Number One reactor was 58 degrees Celsius, that of Number 2 stood at 35 degrees, Number 3 at 62 degrees, Number 4 at 42 degrees, Number 5 at 24 degrees, and Number 6 at 25 degrees.He said the temperatures of Number 1, Number 3 and Number 4 reactors are believed to be the surface temperatures of the spent fuel rod storage pools. The buildings housing the containers of these three reactors were damaged.Kitazawa said he was relieved to see the temperatures stay below 100 degrees for 2 days in a row. He said the public will also feel relieved.

crisis over?
It's a trap!!

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?
Pathetic
  • Like 1

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?
Funny stuff, Gilbert.

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?
Funny stuff, Gilbert.
Tongue in cheek, but it's true... This is such a gigantic mess, it's going to require many lives lost to even begin to right it. It's a sad fact, but a fact indeed. The economic damage is going to exceed a trillion dollars... Not that every dollar isn't a nice gesture, but Japan's got to print its way out of this one and it'll take generations to repay. Not that someone going to Japan to lend volunteer work wouldn't be an incredibly generous gesture, but this is really, really bad despite the "its all over" sentiment and there are many who must and will die pretty horribly, and as always it's not going to be anyone responsible for the decisions but brave, noble souls from the bottom rungs. They are the ones who will help.

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?
Funny stuff, Gilbert.
Tongue in cheek, but it's true... This is such a gigantic mess, it's going to require many lives lost to even begin to right it. It's a sad fact, but a fact indeed. The economic damage is going to exceed a trillion dollars... Not that every dollar isn't a nice gesture, but Japan's got to print its way out of this one and it'll take generations to repay. Not that someone going to Japan to lend volunteer work wouldn't be an incredibly generous gesture, but this is really, really bad despite the "its all over" sentiment and there are many who must and will die pretty horribly, and as always it's not going to be anyone responsible for the decisions but brave, noble souls from the bottom rungs. They are the ones who will help.
trillions? As in 2.000000001 trillion dollars? Or is that Yuan?

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?
Funny stuff, Gilbert.
Tongue in cheek, but it's true... This is such a gigantic mess, it's going to require many lives lost to even begin to right it. It's a sad fact, but a fact indeed. The economic damage is going to exceed a trillion dollars... Not that every dollar isn't a nice gesture, but Japan's got to print its way out of this one and it'll take generations to repay. Not that someone going to Japan to lend volunteer work wouldn't be an incredibly generous gesture, but this is really, really bad despite the "its all over" sentiment and there are many who must and will die pretty horribly, and as always it's not going to be anyone responsible for the decisions but brave, noble souls from the bottom rungs. They are the ones who will help.
trillions? As in 2.000000001 trillion dollars? Or is that Yuan?
Over my head...BTW, thought I've had often during this is how we tend to glorify the selfless acts of these plant workers, when in reality the deaths many will experience will be agonizing and violent. I've heard some of the reports of how organs will be ravaged by those exposed to the core... It's not pretty. I suspect that more people will die of long-term Cancers just from being unfortunate enough to live nearby and be exposed to contamination. The sad fact is that an untold number of people will sacrifice their lives to rebuild, from those cleaning up the plant to those who simply remain in Fukashima to rebuild the economy. Sometimes something is so bad there's really no sugar coating it. This equates to a lot of people dying over a long period of time. Does anyone doubt that?

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?
Funny stuff, Gilbert.
Tongue in cheek, but it's true... This is such a gigantic mess, it's going to require many lives lost to even begin to right it. It's a sad fact, but a fact indeed. The economic damage is going to exceed a trillion dollars... Not that every dollar isn't a nice gesture, but Japan's got to print its way out of this one and it'll take generations to repay. Not that someone going to Japan to lend volunteer work wouldn't be an incredibly generous gesture, but this is really, really bad despite the "its all over" sentiment and there are many who must and will die pretty horribly, and as always it's not going to be anyone responsible for the decisions but brave, noble souls from the bottom rungs. They are the ones who will help.
trillions? As in 2.000000001 trillion dollars? Or is that Yuan?
Over my head...BTW, thought I've had often during this is how we tend to glorify the selfless acts of these plant workers, when in reality the deaths many will experience will be agonizing and violent. I've heard some of the reports of how organs will be ravaged by those exposed to the core... It's not pretty. I suspect that more people will die of long-term Cancers just from being unfortunate enough to live nearby and be exposed to contamination. The sad fact is that an untold number of people will sacrifice their lives to rebuild, from those cleaning up the plant to those who simply remain in Fukashima to rebuild the economy. Sometimes something is so bad there's really no sugar coating it. This equates to a lot of people dying over a long period of time. Does anyone doubt that?
yes.

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It might not be a trillion but it's definitely going to be in the 100's of billions. Estimate I read was $180 billion.

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?
Funny stuff, Gilbert.
Tongue in cheek, but it's true... This is such a gigantic mess, it's going to require many lives lost to even begin to right it. It's a sad fact, but a fact indeed. The economic damage is going to exceed a trillion dollars... Not that every dollar isn't a nice gesture, but Japan's got to print its way out of this one and it'll take generations to repay. Not that someone going to Japan to lend volunteer work wouldn't be an incredibly generous gesture, but this is really, really bad despite the "its all over" sentiment and there are many who must and will die pretty horribly, and as always it's not going to be anyone responsible for the decisions but brave, noble souls from the bottom rungs. They are the ones who will help.
trillions? As in 2.000000001 trillion dollars? Or is that Yuan?
Over my head...BTW, thought I've had often during this is how we tend to glorify the selfless acts of these plant workers, when in reality the deaths many will experience will be agonizing and violent. I've heard some of the reports of how organs will be ravaged by those exposed to the core... It's not pretty. I suspect that more people will die of long-term Cancers just from being unfortunate enough to live nearby and be exposed to contamination. The sad fact is that an untold number of people will sacrifice their lives to rebuild, from those cleaning up the plant to those who simply remain in Fukashima to rebuild the economy. Sometimes something is so bad there's really no sugar coating it. This equates to a lot of people dying over a long period of time. Does anyone doubt that?
yes.
:goodposting: good god, read something besides godlikeproductions.

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These workers we've been hearing about, who risked their lives: have any of them actually gotten sick yet? After so much info about these guys last week, I can't find out what happened to them...

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These workers we've been hearing about, who risked their lives: have any of them actually gotten sick yet? After so much info about these guys last week, I can't find out what happened to them...

I think there's been 3 workers that have been treated for radiation sickness.

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?
Funny stuff, Gilbert.
Tongue in cheek, but it's true... This is such a gigantic mess, it's going to require many lives lost to even begin to right it. It's a sad fact, but a fact indeed. The economic damage is going to exceed a trillion dollars... Not that every dollar isn't a nice gesture, but Japan's got to print its way out of this one and it'll take generations to repay. Not that someone going to Japan to lend volunteer work wouldn't be an incredibly generous gesture, but this is really, really bad despite the "its all over" sentiment and there are many who must and will die pretty horribly, and as always it's not going to be anyone responsible for the decisions but brave, noble souls from the bottom rungs. They are the ones who will help.
trillions? As in 2.000000001 trillion dollars? Or is that Yuan?
Over my head...BTW, thought I've had often during this is how we tend to glorify the selfless acts of these plant workers, when in reality the deaths many will experience will be agonizing and violent. I've heard some of the reports of how organs will be ravaged by those exposed to the core... It's not pretty. I suspect that more people will die of long-term Cancers just from being unfortunate enough to live nearby and be exposed to contamination. The sad fact is that an untold number of people will sacrifice their lives to rebuild, from those cleaning up the plant to those who simply remain in Fukashima to rebuild the economy. Sometimes something is so bad there's really no sugar coating it. This equates to a lot of people dying over a long period of time. Does anyone doubt that?
yes.
:goodposting: good god, read something besides godlikeproductions.
It was CNN that were saying the 50 workers were as good as lost, describing distended organs from the levels of gamma radiation exposure... If that's not the case, then paint me Shuked... I figured these guys have gotten enough exposure to kill them all within 5 years. If that's not the case, then it's certainly not the impression I got. And I've also seen reports of radioactive iodine in the water table and food supply, which I imagine would at the least lead to some thyroid and other cancers... I'm clearly no expert, but would like to see this disputed.

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Interesting and reassuring for those not in the area. Article is clear to state that the cleanup workers are in immediate danger, which was the point that led to this discussion. Also, there are likely to be deaths in the immediate surrounding area (probably more thyroid cancer, though perhaps not as many as Chernobyl.) Of course, I somewhat question Forbes' motives, since they primarily want market stability and I very much question (as is acknowledged in the article) the accuracy of reporting related to Chernobyl deaths. Of course, there is a much greater threat posed in the near-term by hygiene, disease, lack of shelter and other factors. It's still unclear what the life expectancy will be for the cleanup workers and those absorbing radioactive iodine and other heavy radioactive particles. I guess in the end, I'd put it to you... If you lived with 30 miles of Fukashima, would you feel good about remaining there? Edited by Mr. Ham

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Interesting and reassuring for those not in the area. Article is clear to state that the cleanup workers are in immediate danger, which was the point that led to this discussion. Also, there are likely to be deaths in the immediate surrounding area (probably more thyroid cancer, though perhaps not as many as Chernobyl.) Of course, I somewhat question Forbes' motives, since they primarily want market stability and I very much question (as is acknowledged in the article) the accuracy of reporting related to Chernobyl deaths. Of course, there is a much greater threat posed in the near-term by hygiene, disease, lack of shelter and other factors. It's still unclear what the life expectancy will be for the cleanup workers and those absorbing radioactive iodine and other heavy radioactive particles. I guess in the end, I'd put it to you... If you lived with 30 miles of Fukashima, would you feel good about remaining there?
My suspicion is that if I looked at actuarial tables, assuming ones existed for these variables, my life statistically might be shortened by about two months,

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Interesting and reassuring for those not in the area. Article is clear to state that the cleanup workers are in immediate danger, which was the point that led to this discussion. Also, there are likely to be deaths in the immediate surrounding area (probably more thyroid cancer, though perhaps not as many as Chernobyl.) Of course, I somewhat question Forbes' motives, since they primarily want market stability and I very much question (as is acknowledged in the article) the accuracy of reporting related to Chernobyl deaths. Of course, there is a much greater threat posed in the near-term by hygiene, disease, lack of shelter and other factors. It's still unclear what the life expectancy will be for the cleanup workers and those absorbing radioactive iodine and other heavy radioactive particles. I guess in the end, I'd put it to you... If you lived with 30 miles of Fukashima, would you feel good about remaining there?
My suspicion is that if I looked at actuarial tables, assuming ones existed for these variables, my life statistically might be shortened by about two months,
How much exposure does that equate to - and how much is that versus exposure both at Fukashima and say twenty miles away? Would be excellent if you could provide that both in that last 10 days and in the next 6 months - just as a reference's for what the population can expect? Edited by Mr. Ham

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Interesting and reassuring for those not in the area. Article is clear to state that the cleanup workers are in immediate danger, which was the point that led to this discussion. Also, there are likely to be deaths in the immediate surrounding area (probably more thyroid cancer, though perhaps not as many as Chernobyl.) Of course, I somewhat question Forbes' motives, since they primarily want market stability and I very much question (as is acknowledged in the article) the accuracy of reporting related to Chernobyl deaths. Of course, there is a much greater threat posed in the near-term by hygiene, disease, lack of shelter and other factors. It's still unclear what the life expectancy will be for the cleanup workers and those absorbing radioactive iodine and other heavy radioactive particles. I guess in the end, I'd put it to you... If you lived with 30 miles of Fukashima, would you feel good about remaining there?
My suspicion is that if I looked at actuarial tables, assuming ones existed for these variables, my life statistically might be shortened by about two months,
How much exposure does that equate to - and how much is that versus exposure both at Fukashima and say twenty miles away? Would be excellent if you could provide that both in that last 10 days and in the next 6 months - just as a reference's for what the population can expect?
I have published data on radiation exposure in this thread. Dig it out, compare it to the exposure the workers have received.

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http://xkcd.com/radiation/

You even have webcomics providing more accurate information than most major media sites. Yay internet.

And if you actually care about specific information: http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/

In other news, major media outlets back to Libya now that they can't scaremonger about Japan for the 400th day in a row. Shocking.

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It was CNN that were saying the 50 workers were as good as lost, describing distended organs from the levels of gamma radiation exposure... If that's not the case, then paint me Shuked... I figured these guys have gotten enough exposure to kill them all within 5 years. If that's not the case, then it's certainly not the impression I got. And I've also seen reports of radioactive iodine in the water table and food supply, which I imagine would at the least lead to some thyroid and other cancers... I'm clearly no expert, but would like to see this disputed.

Wow....what a kook!Read the thread and quit the fear-mongering. Yuur posts aren't even making any sense. Radioiodine has a half life of 8 days, and isn't even formed when the reactors are shutdown...so no...it's not a concern in the food chain that will kill anyone.

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It was CNN that were saying the 50 workers were as good as lost, describing distended organs from the levels of gamma radiation exposure... If that's not the case, then paint me Shuked... I figured these guys have gotten enough exposure to kill them all within 5 years. If that's not the case, then it's certainly not the impression I got. And I've also seen reports of radioactive iodine in the water table and food supply, which I imagine would at the least lead to some thyroid and other cancers... I'm clearly no expert, but would like to see this disputed.

Wow....what a kook!Read the thread and quit the fear-mongering. Yuur posts aren't even making any sense. Radioiodine has a half life of 8 days, and isn't even formed when the reactors are shutdown...so no...it's not a concern in the food chain that will kill anyone.
The radiation is potentially causing bigger storms than we've ever seen. Don't call it fear mongering when he's just asking questions nobody else has the guts to ask and trying to save a few lives.

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It was CNN that were saying the 50 workers were as good as lost, describing distended organs from the levels of gamma radiation exposure... If that's not the case, then paint me Shuked... I figured these guys have gotten enough exposure to kill them all within 5 years. If that's not the case, then it's certainly not the impression I got. And I've also seen reports of radioactive iodine in the water table and food supply, which I imagine would at the least lead to some thyroid and other cancers... I'm clearly no expert, but would like to see this disputed.

Wow....what a kook!Read the thread and quit the fear-mongering. Yuur posts aren't even making any sense. Radioiodine has a half life of 8 days, and isn't even formed when the reactors are shutdown...so no...it's not a concern in the food chain that will kill anyone.
The radiation is potentially causing bigger storms than we've ever seen. Don't call it fear mongering when he's just asking questions nobody else has the guts to ask and trying to save a few lives.
:rolleyes: Read his last 5 or 6 posts. Then realize that anyone who's paid any attention in this thread whatsoever would know that radioiodine was NOT a danger to the food supply.

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It might not be a trillion but it's definitely going to be in the 100's of billions. Estimate I read was $180 billion.

World Bank estimate is $235 billion.

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:rolleyes: Read his last 5 or 6 posts. Then realize that anyone who's paid any attention in this thread whatsoever would know that radioiodine was NOT a danger to the food supply.

Everyone reading along in this thread realizes that you so narrowly define all of your responses that the great knowledge you have to share is lost. By constantly trivializing any and all news you are losing credibility.Reports out of Japan this morning is about food being contaminated. Your reply should not be that there is no danger of this happening, but that the levels so far are still very safe - even if way above the official limits. And that you think the levels will remain safe because of ?????. Instead you keep personally attacking anyone that has expressed any kind of fear. Sure Mr Ham goes over the top, but trying to one up him in the opposite direction is not really that useful now is it. You would come off a lot better if you stop being pissed that people that know less than you are expressing their fears.

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It was CNN that were saying the 50 workers were as good as lost, describing distended organs from the levels of gamma radiation exposure... If that's not the case, then paint me Shuked... I figured these guys have gotten enough exposure to kill them all within 5 years. If that's not the case, then it's certainly not the impression I got. And I've also seen reports of radioactive iodine in the water table and food supply, which I imagine would at the least lead to some thyroid and other cancers... I'm clearly no expert, but would like to see this disputed.

Wow....what a kook!Read the thread and quit the fear-mongering. Yuur posts aren't even making any sense. Radioiodine has a half life of 8 days, and isn't even formed when the reactors are shutdown...so no...it's not a concern in the food chain that will kill anyone.
The radiation is potentially causing bigger storms than we've ever seen. Don't call it fear mongering when he's just asking questions nobody else has the guts to ask and trying to save a few lives.
:rolleyes: Read his last 5 or 6 posts. Then realize that anyone who's paid any attention in this thread whatsoever would know that radioiodine was NOT a danger to the food supply.
:whoosh:

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http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/

NEWS ADVISORY: Radioactive cesium 24.8 times higher detected in seawater near nuke plant

NEWS ADVISORY: Radioactive iodine 126.7 times higher detected in seawater near nuke plant

Cesium137 has a half life of about 30 years, Cesium 134 has a half life of 2.1 years. Both are beta emitters.

Iodine has a half life of about 8 days. That means even if not diluted by currents, etc., that in 8 days, iodine would be 63.35 times higher than average, in 16 days 31.675 times average, in 24 days, 15.8375 times average, in 32 days 7.91875 times average, in 40 days 3.959 times average, in 48 days 1.879 times average, in 54 days - less than two months, it is at background levels. The risk of iodine is short term introduction into the food chain. Maybe I wouldn't eat crops currently growing around the plant, but plow them under and replant spinach and but the time it is ready for harvest, I wouldn't have concerns about eating it. Milk is one place where iodine could be concentrated enough to cause problems when ingested, but still, after less than a month, I wouldn't be concerned at all.

Cesium 137, I'll have to look at the chemistry of that element to see how it could get into the food chain. Cesium does decay rapidly to stable (non-radioactive) barium, which is harmless. Here is the decay chain:

55Cs ---> 11 beta particle + 56 Ba (metastable) ---> 56 Ba (stable) + 662KeV Gamma Particle

t 1/2 55Cs ---> 56Ba (meta) = 30 years

t 1/2 56Ba (meta) ---> 56Ba (stable = 2.6 min.)

Cesium 137 is of concern because of that high energy gamma particle that barium emits. However, the long half-life means it has a low activity, and the relatively slow decay rate and its dilute concentrations make it substantially less dangerous than naturally occurring radon in places like northern New Hampshire.

What will drive whether the land around the plant will be used again or not will be fear and politics, not science.

ETA: Curiously enough,Cesium-137 is also used in brachytherapy to treat various types of cancer.

ETA to clean up decay equations.

Edited by bueno

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Found this for your edification.

Radiological Risk Coefficients

This table provides selected risk coefficients for inhalation and ingestion. Recommended default absorption types were used for inhalation, and dietary values were used for ingestion. The cesium-137 values include the contribution from the decay product barium-137m. Risks are for lifetime cancer mortality per unit intake (pCi), averaged over all ages and both genders (10-12 is a trillionth). Other values, including for morbidity, are also available.

Lifetime Cancer Mortality Risk Isotope Inhalation(pCi-1) Ingestion(pCi-1)

Cesium-134 1.1 × 10-11 3.5 × 10-11

Cesium-135 1.3 × 10-12 4.0 × 10-12

Cesium-137 8.1 × 10-12 2.5 × 10-11

Damn low risk coefficients here. While the governemnt does consider it a health risk, when you look at the actual risk coefficients, they appear pretty negligible.

Cesium is generally one of the less mobile radioactive metals in the environment. It preferentially adheres quite well to soil, and the concentration associated with sandy soil particles is estimated to be 280 times higher than in interstitial water (water in the pore space between soil particles); concentration ratios are much higher (about 2,000 to more than 4,000) in clay and loam soils. Thus, cesium is generally not a major contaminant in groundwater at DOE sites or other locations.

What Happens to It in the Body? Cesium can be taken into the body by eating food, drinking water, or breathing air. After being taken in, cesium behaves in a manner similar to potassium and distributes uniformly throughout the body. Gastrointestinal absorption from food or water is the principal source of internally deposited cesium in the general population. Essentially all cesium that is ingested is absorbed into the bloodstream through the intestines. Cesium tends to concentrate in muscles because of their relatively

large mass. Like potassium, cesium is excreted from the body fairly quickly. In an adult, 10% is excreted with a biological half-life of 2 days, and the rest leaves the body with a biological half-life of 110 days. Clearance from the body is somewhat quicker for children and adolescents. This means that if someone is exposed to radioactive cesium and the source of exposure is removed, much of the cesium will readily clear the body along the normal pathways for potassium excretion within several months.

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blah, blah, blah.

Really the only question that needs answering, in laymen's terms, would you eat the food, or drink the water from the areas surrounding the plant. How far away should the food source be before you would feel comfortable with the food as your main diet. DO you expect a "dead" zone in the vicinity of the plant - how big a radius - < mile, or more?

I don't care about the periodic table or half-lifes I care about the cumulative effect on the radiation that has been exposed to the environment as an airborne contaminant and/or in the food chain, or water table.

I don't think anyone is growing 3 heads here, but what is the increased risk to the health of folks living within a certain radius of the plant. Are the radiation effects cumulative - meaning they are fine for a day/week/month, but at a certain level they become problematic over an extended period of time - week/month/year.

I assume that at this point, the Japanese experts believe that the worst is behind them - otherwise I have to think they would be taking steps to bury the plant - given that the seawater has already rendered several of the reactors useless.

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Are the concrete trucks on site a new development? There are several in the ariel shots I haven't seen previously.

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Interesting and reassuring for those not in the area. Article is clear to state that the cleanup workers are in immediate danger, which was the point that led to this discussion. Also, there are likely to be deaths in the immediate surrounding area (probably more thyroid cancer, though perhaps not as many as Chernobyl.) Of course, I somewhat question Forbes' motives, since they primarily want market stability and I very much question (as is acknowledged in the article) the accuracy of reporting related to Chernobyl deaths. Of course, there is a much greater threat posed in the near-term by hygiene, disease, lack of shelter and other factors. It's still unclear what the life expectancy will be for the cleanup workers and those absorbing radioactive iodine and other heavy radioactive particles. I guess in the end, I'd put it to you... If you lived with 30 miles of Fukashima, would you feel good about remaining there?
CNN has gullible, fearful reactive peope like you tuning in because they know if they tell you "everybody's gonna die" you will watch. You posted this:

BTW, thought I've had often during this is how we tend to glorify the selfless acts of these plant workers, when in reality the deaths many will experience will be agonizing and violent. I've heard some of the reports of how organs will be ravaged by those exposed to the core... It's not pretty. I suspect that more people will die of long-term Cancers just from being unfortunate enough to live nearby and be exposed to contamination. The sad fact is that an untold number of people will sacrifice their lives to rebuild, from those cleaning up the plant to those who simply remain in Fukashima to rebuild the economy. Sometimes something is so bad there's really no sugar coating it. This equates to a lot of people dying over a long period of time. Does anyone doubt that?

I not only doubt all of this nonesne, it frankly makes me beieve you are quite nuts. CNN has blatantly misled and even lied abou this entire event since day 1. In case you haven't noticed, only the "experts" (and most of them are now experts) that have been on CNN more than once are the ones who talk about worst case scenarios in "a nuclear accident", and talk in the abstract of that vs. actually discussing the Japan events. The truthful, informed experts show up once, and when they don't predict stupid stuff like "violent deaths" they aren't invited back.

Regarding these events, CNN has become less credible than the National Enquirer. Seriously. They have outright fabricated 100% lies to keep people watching. You are the sheep they can fool.

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Interesting and reassuring for those not in the area. Article is clear to state that the cleanup workers are in immediate danger, which was the point that led to this discussion. Also, there are likely to be deaths in the immediate surrounding area (probably more thyroid cancer, though perhaps not as many as Chernobyl.) Of course, I somewhat question Forbes' motives, since they primarily want market stability and I very much question (as is acknowledged in the article) the accuracy of reporting related to Chernobyl deaths. Of course, there is a much greater threat posed in the near-term by hygiene, disease, lack of shelter and other factors. It's still unclear what the life expectancy will be for the cleanup workers and those absorbing radioactive iodine and other heavy radioactive particles. I guess in the end, I'd put it to you... If you lived with 30 miles of Fukashima, would you feel good about remaining there?

CNN has gullible, fearful reactive peope like you tuning in because they know if they tell you "everybody's gonna die" you will watch. You posted this:

BTW, thought I've had often during this is how we tend to glorify the selfless acts of these plant workers, when in reality the deaths many will experience will be agonizing and violent. I've heard some of the reports of how organs will be ravaged by those exposed to the core... It's not pretty. I suspect that more people will die of long-term Cancers just from being unfortunate enough to live nearby and be exposed to contamination. The sad fact is that an untold number of people will sacrifice their lives to rebuild, from those cleaning up the plant to those who simply remain in Fukashima to rebuild the economy. Sometimes something is so bad there's really no sugar coating it. This equates to a lot of people dying over a long period of time. Does anyone doubt that?

I not only doubt all of this nonesne, it frankly makes me beieve you are quite nuts. CNN has blatantly misled and even lied abou this entire event since day 1. In case you haven't noticed, only the "experts" (and most of them are now experts) that have been on CNN more than once are the ones who talk about worst case scenarios in "a nuclear accident", and talk in the abstract of that vs. actually discussing the Japan events. The truthful, informed experts show up once, and when they don't predict stupid stuff like "violent deaths" they aren't invited back.

Regarding these events, CNN has become less credible than the National Enquirer. Seriously. They have outright fabricated 100% lies to keep people watching. You are the sheep they can fool.

The bolded times a million.

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Interesting and reassuring for those not in the area. Article is clear to state that the cleanup workers are in immediate danger, which was the point that led to this discussion. Also, there are likely to be deaths in the immediate surrounding area (probably more thyroid cancer, though perhaps not as many as Chernobyl.) Of course, I somewhat question Forbes' motives, since they primarily want market stability and I very much question (as is acknowledged in the article) the accuracy of reporting related to Chernobyl deaths. Of course, there is a much greater threat posed in the near-term by hygiene, disease, lack of shelter and other factors. It's still unclear what the life expectancy will be for the cleanup workers and those absorbing radioactive iodine and other heavy radioactive particles. I guess in the end, I'd put it to you... If you lived with 30 miles of Fukashima, would you feel good about remaining there?

CNN has gullible, fearful reactive peope like you tuning in because they know if they tell you "everybody's gonna die" you will watch. You posted this:

BTW, thought I've had often during this is how we tend to glorify the selfless acts of these plant workers, when in reality the deaths many will experience will be agonizing and violent. I've heard some of the reports of how organs will be ravaged by those exposed to the core... It's not pretty. I suspect that more people will die of long-term Cancers just from being unfortunate enough to live nearby and be exposed to contamination. The sad fact is that an untold number of people will sacrifice their lives to rebuild, from those cleaning up the plant to those who simply remain in Fukashima to rebuild the economy. Sometimes something is so bad there's really no sugar coating it. This equates to a lot of people dying over a long period of time. Does anyone doubt that?

I not only doubt all of this nonesne, it frankly makes me beieve you are quite nuts. CNN has blatantly misled and even lied abou this entire event since day 1. In case you haven't noticed, only the "experts" (and most of them are now experts) that have been on CNN more than once are the ones who talk about worst case scenarios in "a nuclear accident", and talk in the abstract of that vs. actually discussing the Japan events. The truthful, informed experts show up once, and when they don't predict stupid stuff like "violent deaths" they aren't invited back.

Regarding these events, CNN has become less credible than the National Enquirer. Seriously. They have outright fabricated 100% lies to keep people watching. You are the sheep they can fool.

The bolded times a million.
Otis is one of the CNN sheep. At least Ham is crazy enough to watch and believe. You keep watching and crying how awful it is and questioning what kind of morons watch...then you continue to watch.

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Does anybody know of a way to go and help or is monetary the best way?

Depends. How do you feel about suicide missions in reactors?
Funny stuff, Gilbert.
Tongue in cheek, but it's true... This is such a gigantic mess, it's going to require many lives lost to even begin to right it. It's a sad fact, but a fact indeed. The economic damage is going to exceed a trillion dollars... Not that every dollar isn't a nice gesture, but Japan's got to print its way out of this one and it'll take generations to repay. Not that someone going to Japan to lend volunteer work wouldn't be an incredibly generous gesture, but this is really, really bad despite the "its all over" sentiment and there are many who must and will die pretty horribly, and as always it's not going to be anyone responsible for the decisions but brave, noble souls from the bottom rungs. They are the ones who will help.
trillions? As in 2.000000001 trillion dollars? Or is that Yuan?
Over my head...BTW, thought I've had often during this is how we tend to glorify the selfless acts of these plant workers, when in reality the deaths many will experience will be agonizing and violent. I've heard some of the reports of how organs will be ravaged by those exposed to the core... It's not pretty. I suspect that more people will die of long-term Cancers just from being unfortunate enough to live nearby and be exposed to contamination. The sad fact is that an untold number of people will sacrifice their lives to rebuild, from those cleaning up the plant to those who simply remain in Fukashima to rebuild the economy. Sometimes something is so bad there's really no sugar coating it. This equates to a lot of people dying over a long period of time. Does anyone doubt that?
I Do.

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blah, blah, blah.Really the only question that needs answering, in laymen's terms, would you eat the food, or drink the water from the areas surrounding the plant. How far away should the food source be before you would feel comfortable with the food as your main diet. DO you expect a "dead" zone in the vicinity of the plant - how big a radius - < mile, or more?I don't care about the periodic table or half-lifes I care about the cumulative effect on the radiation that has been exposed to the environment as an airborne contaminant and/or in the food chain, or water table.I don't think anyone is growing 3 heads here, but what is the increased risk to the health of folks living within a certain radius of the plant. Are the radiation effects cumulative - meaning they are fine for a day/week/month, but at a certain level they become problematic over an extended period of time - week/month/year.I assume that at this point, the Japanese experts believe that the worst is behind them - otherwise I have to think they would be taking steps to bury the plant - given that the seawater has already rendered several of the reactors useless.

I would want more concrete data before I answered that, and not from the normal media. I would suspect that you'd want to skip the LOCAL crops this year (if there are any, I'm only referring to in a 2 or 3 mile radius), but most will be OK next year.

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:rolleyes: Read his last 5 or 6 posts. Then realize that anyone who's paid any attention in this thread whatsoever would know that radioiodine was NOT a danger to the food supply.

Everyone reading along in this thread realizes that you so narrowly define all of your responses that the great knowledge you have to share is lost. By constantly trivializing any and all news you are losing credibility.Reports out of Japan this morning is about food being contaminated. Your reply should not be that there is no danger of this happening, but that the levels so far are still very safe - even if way above the official limits. And that you think the levels will remain safe because of ?????. Instead you keep personally attacking anyone that has expressed any kind of fear. Sure Mr Ham goes over the top, but trying to one up him in the opposite direction is not really that useful now is it. You would come off a lot better if you stop being pissed that people that know less than you are expressing their fears.
Mr. Ham was WELL over the top, particularly with the 50 people, organs distended stuff. That said, you are correct in that my responses of late have been...short tempered (for lack of a better phrase.) I've been quite irritated with the shoddy, fearmongering news coverage.

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blah, blah, blah.Really the only question that needs answering, in laymen's terms, would you eat the food, or drink the water from the areas surrounding the plant. How far away should the food source be before you would feel comfortable with the food as your main diet. DO you expect a "dead" zone in the vicinity of the plant - how big a radius - < mile, or more?I don't care about the periodic table or half-lifes I care about the cumulative effect on the radiation that has been exposed to the environment as an airborne contaminant and/or in the food chain, or water table.I don't think anyone is growing 3 heads here, but what is the increased risk to the health of folks living within a certain radius of the plant. Are the radiation effects cumulative - meaning they are fine for a day/week/month, but at a certain level they become problematic over an extended period of time - week/month/year.I assume that at this point, the Japanese experts believe that the worst is behind them - otherwise I have to think they would be taking steps to bury the plant - given that the seawater has already rendered several of the reactors useless.

RADIATION levels are not the real concern, as they are already low. Environmental sampling will be needed to determine what the CONTAMINATION levels are. Generally, if significant longlived stuff was not released, then all areas outside the plant will be safe within a couple weeks, if they aren't already. Contamination is a danger if it finds a way INSIDE the body. MOre information will become available I'm sure, but I would not EXPECT a "dead zone". I would expect most folks could safely return their homes in a few weeks at most.

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http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/

NEWS ADVISORY: Radioactive cesium 24.8 times higher detected in seawater near nuke plant

NEWS ADVISORY: Radioactive iodine 126.7 times higher detected in seawater near nuke plant

"Normal" is extremely low, so 25X is may not be too big a concern, depending on how/if cesium has a way to concentrate in fish. Iodine is not a real concern, although I would avoid fish in the area for a few weeks.

I've been looking for reports about other more dangerous radionuclides in sampling, and haven't seen anything. Cesium and Iodine are things I'd expect to find locally with a coolant loss...I'm talking about other things which might be found with a partial meltdown and complete loss of control.

Edited by renesauz

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All VPR NewsContact Us Radioactive Milk Only A Danger After 58,000 Glasses

Monday, 03/21/11 6:46pm

Richard Knox

.

A woman feeds her cattle at a farm in Futamata, Fukushima prefecture, March 20, 2011.The World Health Organization weighed in Monday on the risk of eating food contaminated by radiation emitted by the still-troubled Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant.

Peter Cordingley, a Manila-based WHO spokesman, told Reuters that the radioactive-food situation is "a lot more serious than anybody thought in the early days, when we thought that this kind of problem can be limited to 20 to 30 kilometers."

At Geneva headquarters, WHO spokesman Gregory Hartl told the Associated Press that Japan must act quickly to keep radioactive food out of the marketplace.

This calls for a reality check.

So I had an hour-long chat with Peter Caracappa, a health physicist at Renssealaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, N.Y. He's been running some calculations on the radioactive iodine-131 and cesium-137 levels being reported in Japanese milk, spinach and drinking water.

Before we get into the details, Caracappa's bottom line is that the risk of ingesting even the most highly contaminated Japanese foodstuffs reported so far is very, very small.

"The long and the short of it is that we're not going to be able to detect any statistically significant change in the cancer rate for anyone as a result of the events in Japan," he told Shots.

To understand why, let's look at how the amounts of radioactivity found in spinach and milk from northern Japan in the past few days relate to two metrics:

•The amount of radiation a U.S. nuclear power plant worker is allowed to get in a year: 50 milliSieverts.

•The amount of radiation it takes to increase your lifetime risk of cancer by 4 percent: 1 Sievert. (A Sievert is a measure of ionizing radiation's effect on human tissue; a milliSievert is a thousandth of a Sievert.)

The whole article...pretty good

Keep in mind also that anything recently harvested, or harvested now, can be washed to remove most contamination. And yes... I'd eat that. Radiation doesn't hurt food one bit (in fact...it's actually used on some foods as a method of killing microbes!) so if the contamination is removed...it's perfectly safe. Crops that have had the opportunity to incorporate radioactive particles in their structures may pose a different problem.

The article goes on to explain that the levels found thus far pose little or no risk. Further smapling is needed to verify.

Edited by renesauz

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Next up on CNN:

People cooking hot dogs on a beach in CA without fire. Radiation? We'll be back with more on this after the break.

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Keep in mind also that anything recently harvested, or harvested now, can be washed to remove most contamination.

BUT YOU'D BE WASHING IT WITH CONTAMINATED WATER!! :mellow:

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