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David Dodds

Meltdown in Japan's Reactors

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Pretty good article...The key assumption in all of that is the moderator rods functioning properly and stopping the primary nuclear reactions. I had read (somewhere?) that this did not happen on a couple reactors, or that they were damaged. He seemed to have a lot of info...more than I had seen elsewhereSo as long as the Japanese are not hiding anything we are ok? ;-) That's a good voice of reason though...

If the primary reactions are not stopped, then there is a more serious problem, but I have not seen that stated. I am thinking we are dealing mainly with daughter products heat.

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17 members from the Ronald Reagan flew through a "plume" from the power plant. Received a dosage equivalent to a month's of natural exposure.

1. Idiots.

2. Because they were able to wash the radiation from their bodies, it would likely be alpha radiation, which has no penetrating power. Even beta radiation is stopped by clothing. Can't remember what daughters are alpha emitters. wilked?

3. Don't see reason for concern here.

I wish that people would stop speculating and just report facts. Getting through all the lies (and there have been mis-truths reported as fact) and spin is annoying.

This can't be true.

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17 members from the Ronald Reagan flew through a "plume" from the power plant. Received a dosage equivalent to a month's of natural exposure.

1. Idiots.

2. Because they were able to wash the radiation from their bodies, it would likely be alpha radiation, which has no penetrating power. Even beta radiation is stopped by clothing. Can't remember what daughters are alpha emitters. wilked?

3. Don't see reason for concern here.

I wish that people would stop speculating and just report facts. Getting through all the lies (and there have been mis-truths reported as fact) and spin is annoying.

This can't be true.

Quoting a TV news source. I don't believe the plume part either, more likely they flew downwind of the plants.

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Power plants use feathers?

Plucky response, but that would be plumage.

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I don't watch him much at all, but Beck just had a great demonstration on what is really happening that even Dodds would get.

ETA: of course, now he's back to his normal ranting - boring.

Edited by bueno

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HamDodds - got any links to real news sources? Note that the links you were posting from your Ham account to Scientology websites do not qualify.

What parts do we disagree with?1. Multiple reactors are down and Japan is saying they are undergoing "partial" meltdowns.2. In one reactor they are destroying it in place by dumping sea water on it as a "hail mary" to cool it down.3. The steam they are creating has to be radioactive (contains cesium) and they are venting that into the air.4. 160,000+ people have been evacuated in a 12 mile radius.6. At least 4 reactors look like they will never be brought back up.7. Hydrogen explosions have happened in one and is predicted in at least a second reactor. The one explosion was so strong that it blew apart the concrete and reinforced steel casing, yet magically did not damage any of the containment facility.8. It's completely safe, but I keep seeing pictures of people from the government in full body suits.9. The energy company in control of this has had multiple violations in the past for not releasing factual info.Again I think I have the same news as everyone. These reactors are in deep trouble. I remain hopeful that they can contain the radiation. That's the best case right now and I hope it completely plays out where people will not be exposed to radiation.
What you seem to be paying attention to is the spin, and a lot of statements made by people like Amy (I think it was) that are not correct. This is not time for emotional handwringing, Are the reactors in deep trouble? Yeah, they are toast. The job now is to keep them cool while the daughter products decay. Thus the need for seawater to cool it, and frankly, the need to replace that seawater when it gets hot to the point where it is no longer cooling the reactor. It is obvious that some fuel rods are leaking. Is it dangerous? Potentially. Worst case is that the fuel melts and collects on the reactor floor (which is designed not to melt) where it will cool. Should very conservative precautions be taken? Yes.Will we have a Chernobyl "dirty bomb" or a China Syndrome? Don't see it happening. If there is a breach, will I be rushing to buy iodine tablets (I live in Washington State). Nope.The real danger here is that emotional reaction like you are exhibiting will destroy a necessary energy source. And this isn't even getting into the difference between these plants and safer, more modern ones. Nuclear is still a great alternative to a coal-fired plant. The irrational fear being generated by the media (and I'll even include Fox in that statement) is going to destroy an industry that we need if we want to wean ourselves from Arab oil.
I disagree with you on a lot of things but gotta admit when you bring it. I hope more people like you are loud enough on this topic in the months to come regarding the safety of nuclear power.

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I never thought I'd see Dodds losing his wits and Bueno in here playing the part of calm, logical guy.

Maybe the radiation is having an effect.

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I've been researching this all day. I never knew how many "nuclear experts" there were on the internet? Practically every website is full of them! It's great news to know so many of us understand nuclear energy so well!

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I've been researching this all day. I never knew how many "nuclear experts" there were on the internet? Practically every website is full of them! It's great news to know so many of us understand nuclear energy so well!

Agent 2: Homer, this is an exact replica of your work station.

Homer: [moans]

Agent 2: Now we're going to simulate a power surge in core sector eight.

Homer: What the hell are you talking about?

:homer:

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Nuclear energy has always reminded me of airplane travel. Statistically, travelling by airplane is the safest way to travel, and statistically producing energy through nuclear means is the safest way to do so. Yet in either case, every time there is an accident we pay it extraordinary attention.

In the case of nuclear energy, I blame progressives for this. One of the reasons I find myself agreeing with liberals so often these days is because they usually represent the ideology of science and reason. On such disparate issues as evolution, stem cells, abortion, climate change, and a host of others, progressives are the ones who cite scientific evidence to prove their points, while conservatives too often, at least IMO, rely on emotion and irrelevancy.

Yet when it comes to nuclear energy, it's all seemingly reversed. It's the progressives who become emotional and often ignore facts, and its conservatives that are typically calm and level-headed. Why this is I have no idea.

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Some good info here:http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/information-on-the-japanese-earthquake-and-reactors-in-that-region/

Dodds> while you're at it, please delete this guy's avatar :X

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MSNBC is really playing the fear card. The host of the 3pm show (PST) actually began by saying, "Now is the time to panic, people!" Then he bluntly stated that the attempt to cool the rods by seawater had failed and a meltdown was imminent, and that if he lived within 500 miles of one of those nuclear plants in Japan, he'd be driving away as fast as he could.

Next he had a guest on who stated firmly that California's nuclear power plants were unprepared for any major earthquake and that when the "big one" inevitably hit along the San Andreas fautline, the results would be "appalling".

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MSNBC is really playing the fear card. The host of the 3pm show (PST) actually began by saying, "Now is the time to panic, people!" Then he bluntly stated that the attempt to cool the rods by seawater had failed and a meltdown was imminent, and that if he lived within 500 miles of one of those nuclear plants in Japan, he'd be driving away as fast as he could. Next he had a guest on who stated firmly that California's nuclear power plants were unprepared for any major earthquake and that when the "big one" inevitably hit along the San Andreas fautline, the results would be "appalling".

This is what really bothers me about the anti-nuclear crowd. BTW - the rods probably are melting. Not the hoped-for scenario but still a containable scenario.

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MSNBC is really playing the fear card. The host of the 3pm show (PST) actually began by saying, "Now is the time to panic, people!" Then he bluntly stated that the attempt to cool the rods by seawater had failed and a meltdown was imminent, and that if he lived within 500 miles of one of those nuclear plants in Japan, he'd be driving away as fast as he could. Next he had a guest on who stated firmly that California's nuclear power plants were unprepared for any major earthquake and that when the "big one" inevitably hit along the San Andreas fautline, the results would be "appalling".

“You don’t ever want a crisis to go to waste; it’s an opportunity to do important things that you would otherwise avoid.” – Rahm Emanuel

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MSNBC is really playing the fear card. The host of the 3pm show (PST) actually began by saying, "Now is the time to panic, people!" Then he bluntly stated that the attempt to cool the rods by seawater had failed and a meltdown was imminent, and that if he lived within 500 miles of one of those nuclear plants in Japan, he'd be driving away as fast as he could. Next he had a guest on who stated firmly that California's nuclear power plants were unprepared for any major earthquake and that when the "big one" inevitably hit along the San Andreas fautline, the results would be "appalling".

This is what really bothers me about the anti-nuclear crowd. BTW - the rods probably are melting. Not the hoped-for scenario but still a containable scenario.
How is it contained? And what are the risks?

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MSNBC is really playing the fear card. The host of the 3pm show (PST) actually began by saying, "Now is the time to panic, people!" Then he bluntly stated that the attempt to cool the rods by seawater had failed and a meltdown was imminent, and that if he lived within 500 miles of one of those nuclear plants in Japan, he'd be driving away as fast as he could. Next he had a guest on who stated firmly that California's nuclear power plants were unprepared for any major earthquake and that when the "big one" inevitably hit along the San Andreas fautline, the results would be "appalling".

This is what really bothers me about the anti-nuclear crowd. BTW - the rods probably are melting. Not the hoped-for scenario but still a containable scenario.
How is it contained? And what are the risks?
It will melt out of the Zircaloy casing, that surrounds the individual rods, but should still be contained in what they call the "core-catcher. It is the third layer of protection and is designed to contain a complete meltdown.

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It's probably safe to say that no matter what happens in Japan, there will be so many new regulations added that it's already set back our nuclear program for years.

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

I went wine-tasting. Hit five wineries.

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

I went wine-tasting. Hit five wineries.
:thumbup: to you too!

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New explosion heard?

reactor #2

Edited by jamny

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New explosion at reactor site #2 is not good news. Possibility it might have breached the containment zone. Not good.

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watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

Edited by bueno

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

And your point is??
He has balls?

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

And your point is??
Good for him. :thumbup: I love it.

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

And your point is??
Good for him. :thumbup: I love it.
Libyan freedom fighters being routed, a major crisis in the world's third largest economy and the government headed for a possible shutdown. Now imagine it was four years ago.ETA: This is sarcasm. Edited by bueno

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

What a disgrace. He should have flown out to Japan and personally filled each nuclear plant with seawater. :thumbdown:

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The more things go along the less crazy and paranoid Dodds is becoming. I'm not sure if this means I'm buying the end of the world hype or just coming around to reality. :unsure:

:thumbup:

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

What a disgrace. He should have flown out to Japan and personally filled each nuclear plant with seawater. :thumbdown:
No, he should play two rounds and just stay out of it. :thumbup: Do nothing.

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watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

You're supposed to be the calm one. This scares me. What happens now?

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...I don't see this becoming a world issue, ...

Should I assume that replacing these source of energy will come from coal, oil, and/or gas and thus drive up these already climbing commodity prices? I'm guessing that nuclear, wind, solar, hydro either take too long to get built, cannot meet the immediate need, and/or are too variable to be near future alternatives?

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...I don't see this becoming a world issue, ...

Should I assume that replacing these source of energy will come from coal, oil, and/or gas and thus drive up these already climbing commodity prices? I'm guessing that nuclear, wind, solar, hydro either take too long to get built, cannot meet the immediate need, and/or are too variable to be near future alternatives?
I guarantee that you will see this excuse soon for rising oil prices: 'Japan using more oil in rebuilding, prices climbing.'

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When you say it's "prudent" to put things on hold in the nuclear industry "for a little bit", my only concern is that this is exactly what we did after Three Mile Island (which ended up harming no one that we know of) and "a little bit" turned out to be 30 years.

This simply did not happen this way. Runaway inflation of the '70s and the resulting cost overruns of all large projects made the prospect of nuclear with all the upfront cost ever paying for itself seem improbable. What has changed is the plants originally licensed for 20 years(?) have been relicensed for another 20 years. Suddenly these plants with rising energy costs are like "printing money" and the investors that bailed in the early '80s are taking notice.

Here is an old cato article that supports this position (and a more recent one from last year which I haven't really read yet). Note I disagree with Cato's premise on the role of government here....

I am very much under the impression that the overreaction to Three Mile Island has hurt us demonstrably in terms of our nuclear technology, our supply of energy, our economy, even foreign policy decisions. A similar overreaction will do even more unforseen damage.

The Reagan energy policy of "cheap oil" is much more the culprit. As well as the cutting of federal loan guarantees by the "small government" types.

In the end, nothing happening this weekend is a reason for me to not support including nuclear as an alternative form of energy. And that is with the assumption that they will require the same type of tax payer funds in order to be built. Funds in addition to Price Anderson Act limiting corporate liability and the eventual federal disposal of nuclear waste in a permanent repository. It also includes the assumption that things could be much worst than the "everything is under control" posts.

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

And your point is??
Good for him. :thumbup: I love it.
Libyan freedom fighters being routed, a major crisis in the world's third largest economy and the government headed for a possible shutdown. Now imagine it was four years ago.ETA: This is sarcasm.
Four years ago it wouldve happened while Bush was in Texas on another vacation. And the Righties would defend him.

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Ok they're apparently evacuating people from plant 2 where they had another explosion. Now it's getting a little scary... :unsure:

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I honestly cannot believe that this happening to a nuclear reactor in Japan. This is a country so prepared and ready for these type of emergencies that it's really unthinkable that they are relying on 3rd and 4th levels of containment here. Incredible how so many things can get messed up at the same time.

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watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

You're supposed to be the calm one. This scares me. What happens now?
There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

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Good thing Obama got in a round of golf on Saturday. :thumbup:

And your point is??
Good for him. :thumbup: I love it.
Libyan freedom fighters being routed, a major crisis in the world's third largest economy and the government headed for a possible shutdown. Now imagine it was four years ago.ETA: This is sarcasm.
Four years ago it wouldve happened while Bush was in Texas on another vacation. And the Righties would defend him.
I'm not attacking anyone. It is just my cynical sense of humor.

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...I don't see this becoming a world issue, ...

Should I assume that replacing these source of energy will come from coal, oil, and/or gas and thus drive up these already climbing commodity prices? I'm guessing that nuclear, wind, solar, hydro either take too long to get built, cannot meet the immediate need, and/or are too variable to be near future alternatives?
I guarantee that you will see this excuse soon for rising oil prices: 'Japan using more oil in rebuilding, prices climbing.'
The need to build more oil-fired plants because we won't be building nuclear plants....

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There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.

Are there any credible sources with regard to radiation levels since the last explosion? Has there be an exponential increase or not?

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watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

You're supposed to be the calm one. This scares me. What happens now?
There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.
What evidence do you have that core catchers exist at these reactors?

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watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

You're supposed to be the calm one. This scares me. What happens now?
There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.
Very good information that you have shared in this thread,thanks.Just watching the news conference they are advising all people within the 20K radius to remain indoors until they can determine the extent(if any)eadiation that may have been released or is escaping.

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watched a translated Japanese press conference. We are probably looking at a meltdown into the core catcher, but there may also be a possibility of radioactive water escaping. That would definitely be close to worst case.

You're supposed to be the calm one. This scares me. What happens now?
There seems to be concerns in the outer containment zone. There was a photo on CNBC which I have not seen yet (heard about it though) that seems to show a cylindrical explosion of darker smoke and debris. It might indicate a hydrogen explosion has ripped a hole in the top of the containment vessel. That would make it much harder (like close to impossible) to control the release of airborne radiation if they continue to pump seawater into the vessel to cool it down.Eventually all of the steam would have to be vented anyway, but this would make it difficult to vent it in a controlled manner (i.e. keeping the amount of radiation at lower levels). Still not dealing with anything even approaching Chernobyl but this makes complete meltdown more likely. The nuclear material will likely melt and get collected in the core catcher, but any steam in the building could escape.
What evidence do you have that core catchers exist at these reactors?
It's supposed to be S.O.P.

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