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BigSteelThrill

G.O.P. goes after abortion. again.

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If the GOP moved to a more libertarian stance I'd think they would attract more customers.

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If the GOP moved to a more libertarian stance I'd think they would attract more customers.

There's a divide among Libertarians on abortion, but I get the 'master of your own body' sentiment.

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Let them roll on. They are appeasing about 20ish percent of the population. That won't get it done long term especially in national elections. They are the gift that keeps giving to Obama.

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These guys could #### up a two car parade. Damn, it would be nice to have some political representation with real substance.

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These guys could #### up a two car parade.

:lmao:

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I too am opposed to subsidizing insurance companies.

these other rubes seem all for it

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I too am opposed to subsidizing insurance companies.

For the first time,this bill places restrictions on how women with private insurance can spend private dollars in purchasing health insurance,” she said. “This bill will deny tax credits for women who buy the type of health insurance that they currently have – health insurance that covers a full range of reproductive care.”

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Let them roll on. They are appeasing about 20ish percent of the population. That won't get it done long term especially in national elections. They are the gift that keeps giving to Obama.
Now that they are backing off Health Care.... apparently..... they need something rile the base.

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Let them roll on. They are appeasing about 20ish percent of the population. That won't get it done long term especially in national elections. They are the gift that keeps giving to Obama.

Now that they are backing off Health Care.... apparently..... they need something rile the base.

Yeah they know that thing is an anchor around their necks. Pawlenty and others are backing away quick. I give Bachmann credit. She was quick to see which way the wind was blowing and had backed away early.

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Let them roll on. They are appeasing about 20ish percent of the population. That won't get it done long term especially in national elections. They are the gift that keeps giving to Obama.

Now that they are backing off Health Care.... apparently..... they need something rile the base.

Yeah they know that thing is an anchor around their necks. Pawlenty and others are backing away quick. I give Bachmann credit. She was quick to see which way the wind was blowing and had backed away early.
Apparently they aren't backing off from ''health care'' because going after the mandate kills health care reform. Or so Obama has said. Now go and buy your health insurance, It Is The Law Of The Land!!!!!

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I too am opposed to subsidizing insurance companies.

For the first time,this bill places restrictions on how women with private insurance can spend private dollars in purchasing health insurance,” she said. “This bill will deny tax credits for women who buy the type of health insurance that they currently have – health insurance that covers a full range of reproductive care.”
Denying a tax credit is not the same thing as restricting how one spends one's money. Personally, I vote that we do away with all tax credits on all health insurance purchases, including employer-provided health care.

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I too am opposed to subsidizing insurance companies.

For the first time,this bill places restrictions on how women with private insurance can spend private dollars in purchasing health insurance,” she said. “This bill will deny tax credits for women who buy the type of health insurance that they currently have – health insurance that covers a full range of reproductive care.”
Denying a tax credit is not the same thing as restricting how one spends one's money. Personally, I vote that we do away with all tax credits on all health insurance purchases, including employer-provided health care.
And what is that going to accomplish exactly?

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From my vantage point the GOP should be encouraging abortion. Once they are born we are going to pay a hell of a lot more for the little unwanted buggers.

My platform:

You get two bites at the apple one with no strings attached. The second time you get spayed. Problem solved.

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I too am opposed to subsidizing insurance companies.

For the first time,this bill places restrictions on how women with private insurance can spend private dollars in purchasing health insurance,” she said. “This bill will deny tax credits for women who buy the type of health insurance that they currently have – health insurance that covers a full range of reproductive care.”
Denying a tax credit is not the same thing as restricting how one spends one's money. Personally, I vote that we do away with all tax credits on all health insurance purchases, including employer-provided health care.
And what is that going to accomplish exactly?
Kind of a hijack, but it would enable consumer choice and encourage consumer awareness of health care costs. For example, as it is, I don't really have a meaningful choice of health coverage, since my employer provided coverage is far cheaper (due to tax credits) than what I could purchase on my own. Therefore, I have little meaningful choice of what policy I end up with, what coverages I get, etc. If I could choose, I might well choose a less expensive, less comprehensive policy, and I would then care more about health care costs. As an example, if I had a policy that didn't cover the cost of purchasing a nebulizer for one night's use, I certainly wouldn't allow my doctor to talk me into it.

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From my vantage point the GOP should be encouraging abortion. Once they are born we are going to pay a hell of a lot more for the little unwanted buggers.My platform:You get two bites at the apple one with no strings attached. The second time you get spayed. Problem solved.

I've posted before that paying people to get fixed would have long term savings that most any fiscal conservative could get behind.

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These guys could #### up a two car parade. Damn, it would be nice to have some political representation with real substance.

:goodposting:

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These guys could #### up a two car parade. Damn, it would be nice to have some political representation with real substance.

I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.

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These guys could #### up a two car parade. Damn, it would be nice to have some political representation with real substance.

I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture.
I believe our stance on individual freedoms... without the governments deciding our decisions for us, defines us as a culture. Anything less is tyrannical. The moment that fetus is born and becomes a child, he is also granted those freedoms, even against his very mother. But not before, unless we are in Iran and serving Dogma and not the people.

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
:goodposting: I thought about responding to MoO's post but it's so over the top it's not worth the effort.

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Let them roll on. They are appeasing about 20ish percent of the population. That won't get it done long term especially in national elections. They are the gift that keeps giving to Obama.

Now that they are backing off Health Care.... apparently..... they need something rile the base.

Yeah they know that thing is an anchor around their necks. Pawlenty and others are backing away quick. I give Bachmann credit. She was quick to see which way the wind was blowing and had backed away early.
I don't get this. The healthcare bill is a disaster on all levels. They need to keep going after it.

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The GOP only goes after abortion when they are powerless to do anything about it. When they had every branch locked up, you didn't hear a word about abortion.

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
Careful there Timmy. Its ok to disagree with someone's viewpoint, but you should acknowledge it as a valid viewpoint - albeit from a different vantage point than your own.I don't agree that abortion is murder. I hate that is used to abdicate personal responsibility, and becomes a de facto birth control method. But, that is another issue altogether. Nonetheless, I recognize that many people rationally believe that life begins with conception, and intentionally stopping that life is morally wrong. I can't say these people are wrong, or should be ashamed of their stance, simply because it does not comport to my point of view.

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These guys could #### up a two car parade. Damn, it would be nice to have some political representation with real substance.

I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.
When did the German people of the 1930's justify the Holocaust? The German people allowed fear and pride and scapegoating justify handing away all of their rights. That is what we need to worry about, not whether or not we morally accept what people do with their freedoms that do not negatively impacts the rest of society. (Abortion is a social benefit, not cost.)

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When did the German people of the 1930's justify the Holocaust? The German people allowed fear and pride and scapegoating justify handing away all of their rights. That is what we need to worry about, not whether or not we morally accept what people do with their freedoms that do not negatively impacts the rest of society. (Abortion is a social benefit, not cost.)

Care to expound on that?

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This is why I love the growth of the Tea Party. They're not interested in this kind of crap.

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When did the German people of the 1930's justify the Holocaust? The German people allowed fear and pride and scapegoating justify handing away all of their rights. That is what we need to worry about, not whether or not we morally accept what people do with their freedoms that do not negatively impacts the rest of society. (Abortion is a social benefit, not cost.)

Care to expound on that?
Just imagine how much we'd benefit in this social setting if Bottomfeeder Sports had been.....oh nevermind.

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When did the German people of the 1930's justify the Holocaust? The German people allowed fear and pride and scapegoating justify handing away all of their rights. That is what we need to worry about, not whether or not we morally accept what people do with their freedoms that do not negatively impacts the rest of society. (Abortion is a social benefit, not cost.)

Care to expound on that?
Just imagine how much we'd benefit in this social setting if Bottomfeeder Sports had been.....oh nevermind.
If it's so beneficial, let's make it retroactive!

(Not for BFS. In general, I kinda like him.)

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Young healthy people who contribute to society are not a cost but a resource.

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Young healthy people who contribute to society are not a cost but a resource.

:blackdot: for future immigration debates.

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
Really?6 million Jews versus 3.5 million babies a year aborted. I don't know the exact number of babies killed but I bet it is at least 10x that of German Holocaust. In most cases comparing anything to Nazi Germany is pure hyperbole. But over 60 million babies killed because of abortion. That is horrific.

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Young healthy people who contribute to society are not a cost but a resource.

:blackdot: for future immigration debates.
I'll take all the legal immigrants we can get. :shrug:

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
Careful there Timmy. Its ok to disagree with someone's viewpoint, but you should acknowledge it as a valid viewpoint- albeit from a different vantage point than your own.

I don't agree that abortion is murder. I hate that is used to abdicate personal responsibility, and becomes a de facto birth control method. But, that is another issue altogether.

Nonetheless, I recognize that many people rationally believe that life begins with conception, and intentionally stopping that life is morally wrong. I can't say these people are wrong, or should be ashamed of their stance, simply because it does not comport to my point of view.

I believe being opposed to abortion is a valid viewpoint.

I believe the position that abortion is murder is a valid viewpoint.

I don't find comparing abortion to the Holocaust to be in any way valid.

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These guys could #### up a two car parade. Damn, it would be nice to have some political representation with real substance.

I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture.
I believe our stance on individual freedoms... without the governments deciding our decisions for us, defines us as a culture. Anything less is tyrannical. The moment that fetus is born and becomes a child, he is also granted those freedoms, even against his very mother. But not before, unless we are in Iran and serving Dogma and not the people.
On a moral scale please rank.1. murder2. rape3. involuntary killing4. Killing a convicted murderer on death row.5. Killing someone in war6. Individual freedoms

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
Careful there Timmy. Its ok to disagree with someone's viewpoint, but you should acknowledge it as a valid viewpoint- albeit from a different vantage point than your own.

I don't agree that abortion is murder. I hate that is used to abdicate personal responsibility, and becomes a de facto birth control method. But, that is another issue altogether.

Nonetheless, I recognize that many people rationally believe that life begins with conception, and intentionally stopping that life is morally wrong. I can't say these people are wrong, or should be ashamed of their stance, simply because it does not comport to my point of view.

I believe being opposed to abortion is a valid viewpoint.

I believe the position that abortion is murder is a valid viewpoint.

I don't find comparing abortion to the Holocaust to be in any way valid.

If you accept 1 and 2, 3 is not that much of a stretch Tim. It's a large-scale 'killing' of human beings. Granted, not for religious, or master-race reasons, and not through torture etc. But if abortion is killing humans, then it's not like an analogy to mass killings is completely crazy.

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
Really?6 million Jews versus 3.5 million babies a year aborted. I don't know the exact number of babies killed but I bet it is at least 10x that of German Holocaust. In most cases comparing anything to Nazi Germany is pure hyperbole. But over 60 million babies killed because of abortion. That is horrific.
Good point. You neglected the mention the other similarities, such as that pregnant women in this country are being forcibly shipped off to hidden-from-view death camps, where their babies are extracted from them and put in ovens, on the orders of the United States government. It's important to point this out, because without such a similarity your analogy would simply be in terms of comparing the number of Holocaust victims to the number of fetuses aborted, and that would be a morally reprehensible comparison to make.

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
If you believe that abortion is murder, more people have been killed by abortions over the years than were killed during the holocaust. Both involved killing people that were determined to be "not human enough to live". Both people were killed while people looked on disapprovingly but said nothing. If you don't believe that, name one person (ok don't name smoo) who believe we should have MORE abortions. Nobody likes abortion, we just let it happen because we like the alternative less.It's not the coolest analogy in the world, but it's not as shameful as you make it out to be.

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Good point. You neglected the mention the other similarities, such as that pregnant women in this country are being forcibly shipped off to hidden-from-view death camps, where their babies are extracted from them and put in ovens, on the orders of the United States government. It's important to point this out, because without such a similarity your analogy would simply be in terms of comparing the number of Holocaust victims to the number of fetuses aborted, and that would be a morally reprehensible comparison to make.

It's not the pregnant women that give the analogy credence. It's the babies being aborted that do.

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Young healthy people who contribute to society are not a cost but a resource.

:blackdot: for future immigration debates.
As long as they are contributing and not leeching or engaged in criminal activity, I don't have a problem with them.

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These guys could #### up a two car parade. Damn, it would be nice to have some political representation with real substance.

I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.
Fishing Tim with dynamite here.

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When did the German people of the 1930's justify the Holocaust? The German people allowed fear and pride and scapegoating justify handing away all of their rights. That is what we need to worry about, not whether or not we morally accept what people do with their freedoms that do not negatively impacts the rest of society. (Abortion is a social benefit, not cost.)

I don't know -do you really?

It seams that there had to be a significant cultural support for rounding up the Jews and putting them in concentration camps. There was some resistance, the most famous being Dietrch Bonhoeffer. So standing up against evil has a cost. In the case against abortion, it could have a political cost for some in the GOP. But leaders lead and sway public opinion. That is my guess what happened with Hitler and the reason for the holocaust. But leaders can also sway people for good rather than evil.

Abortion is not a social benefit on any standard.

1. We need the work force. We do not have to import it for Mexico.

2. It devalues life and morality. If you can justify killing a baby you can justify killing undesirables (re.tardation , physical deformities, old people, hardened criminals....) because they provide no social benefit. Do we need a czar to tell us who provides us with social benefits and who should live and die.

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
Really?6 million Jews versus 3.5 million babies a year aborted. I don't know the exact number of babies killed but I bet it is at least 10x that of German Holocaust. In most cases comparing anything to Nazi Germany is pure hyperbole. But over 60 million babies killed because of abortion. That is horrific.
Good point. You neglected the mention the other similarities, such as that pregnant women in this country are being forcibly shipped off to hidden-from-view death camps, where their babies are extracted from them and put in ovens, on the orders of the United States government. It's important to point this out, because without such a similarity your analogy would simply be in terms of comparing the number of Holocaust victims to the number of fetuses aborted, and that would be a morally reprehensible comparison to make.
I don't think you understand the concept of an "analogy." Saying that X and Y are analogous means that they're similar in at least one instructive dimension. It doesn't mean that they're identical.

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
Careful there Timmy. Its ok to disagree with someone's viewpoint, but you should acknowledge it as a valid viewpoint - albeit from a different vantage point than your own.

I don't agree that abortion is murder. I hate that is used to abdicate personal responsibility, and becomes a de facto birth control method. But, that is another issue altogether.

Nonetheless, I recognize that many people rationally believe that life begins with conception, and intentionally stopping that life is morally wrong. I can't say these people are wrong, or should be ashamed of their stance, simply because it does not comport to my point of view.

Yeah, that's where I am, I think.

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If you don't believe that, name one person (ok don't name smoo) who believe we should have MORE abortions. Nobody likes abortion, we just let it happen because we like the alternative less.

The way you phrase this could be interpreted in different ways. I would prefer if a greater percentage of unintended pregnancies were terminated. But my first preference would be for there to be fewer unintended pregnancies in the first place. So I'm not sure if I want "MORE abortions" or not, according to you.

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I recognize that many people rationally believe that life begins with conception, and intentionally stopping that life is morally wrong. I can't say these people are wrong, or should be ashamed of their stance, simply because it does not comport to my point of view.

Yeah, that's where I am, I think.
I don't think pro-lifers are particularly rational. In what way is it "rational" to believe that a sperm and egg a millimeter apart are worthless, but as soon as they're joined together the resulting embryo is so valuable that we're willing to force a woman to carry it around inside her for nine months?

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Anyone who wants to see Obama get re-elected should be hoping and praying that the republican candidate makes abortion an issue. The swing voters will never stand for government takling personal freedoms away.

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I believe that our stance on abortion defines us a culture. If abortion is murder of an innocent child, than it is morally wrong. Cultures can accept morally wrong positions and have some sort moral justification for their positions. For example, I have never understood how WWII Germany could justify the Jewish Holocaust. But they did and it defined who they were as a culture. Standing up for life is not ####### up a two car parade.

Personally, I would be ashamed of myself if I were to attempt to make a moral equivalency argument between the Holocaust and abortion. But that's just me.
Really?6 million Jews versus 3.5 million babies a year aborted. I don't know the exact number of babies killed but I bet it is at least 10x that of German Holocaust. In most cases comparing anything to Nazi Germany is pure hyperbole. But over 60 million babies killed because of abortion. That is horrific.
Good point. You neglected the mention the other similarities, such as that pregnant women in this country are being forcibly shipped off to hidden-from-view death camps, where their babies are extracted from them and put in ovens, on the orders of the United States government. It's important to point this out, because without such a similarity your analogy would simply be in terms of comparing the number of Holocaust victims to the number of fetuses aborted, and that would be a morally reprehensible comparison to make.
Babies are chemically burned and mutilated while alive in their mother. Your analogy falls short.Do you think a mother killing a 2 year old is murder? The baby is certainly an inconvenience to the mother?Barbra Boxer stated in a debate with Rick Santorum she believed in post birth abortion? That is, the baby isn't a baby until it leaves the hospital. Is that morally acceptable? How about delivering a third trimester baby until just a portion of the head is in the birth canal, then inserting a sharp object into the back the neck and either scrambling the brains or vacuuming them out? It that morally wrong?Is killing a baby with poisons or chemically burning them, when is obvious they feel pain, morally wrong?

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