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Clifford

Why is Ron Paul Being Ignored?

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If you watch primarily Fox or MSNBC you wouldn't even know he was running. In most conversations on this board about 2012 GOP Hopefuls you don't see his name mentioned. Routinely people like Bachmann, Trump, Pawlenty, Christie, and Gingrich are mentioned as serious candidates. Even Palin.

My question is why? This guy CREATED the tea party movement. He is the most consistent proponent of true libertarian ideals which basically every GOP candidate outside of Romney claims to support. There is not a candidate in the field who even approaches him on fiscal conservatism and he likely is the ONLY candidate in the field who would actually solve our financial crisis.

Is it really because he doesn't give a crap if gays get married?

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If you watch primarily Fox or MSNBC you wouldn't even know he was running. In most conversations on this board about 2012 GOP Hopefuls you don't see his name mentioned. Routinely people like Bachmann, Trump, Pawlenty, Christie, and Gingrich are mentioned as serious candidates. Even Palin.My question is why? This guy CREATED the tea party movement. He is the most consistent proponent of true libertarian ideals which basically every GOP candidate outside of Romney claims to support. There is not a candidate in the field who even approaches him on fiscal conservatism and he likely is the ONLY candidate in the field who would actually solve our financial crisis.Is it really because he doesn't give a crap if gays get married?

There doesn't seem to be a likely scenario in which he can win the Republican nomination.

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Age.

No, I don't think that's it. It's because his views simply don't represent the mainstream of the Republican party. Yes, the Tea Party movement began around his followers, but it was quickly co-opted by other conservatives who don't share Paul's views, especially with regard to foreign policy and drugs.I see an analogy between Paul and Jesse Jackson, who ran for president in 1984 and 1988. Jesse had fierce, undying support among his followers, who represented about 10% of the Democratic party. But he never could attract anyone beyond that 10%.

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He's considered fringe because he won't play the game. He is the shining example of why our federal government is in the state it is in. You cannot get elected to the top positions if you aren't part of the establishment.

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Because he doesn't represent a large voting consituency. Listen, people can tell themselves all day that there is an incipient libertarian strain waiting to take over the Republican party. There is absolutley no evidence that this is the case. One reason why I doubt that the tea party has any lasting influence on American politics is because I think the message of the tea party was pretty incoherent once you got past the one message all conservative agree upon. Which is that taxes should be cut. You don't need Ron Paul to argue for tax cuts. All the Republican candidates want that. Is it refreshing to see a guy like Paul, who would give the defense budget the same haircut he wants to give entitlement programs? Sure. But go tell seniors that you're going to cut Medicare and you'll learn that many Republicans don't even support entitlement cuts. And they sure as heck don't support cuts in defense spending. Or in law enforcement.

So he's ignored for the same reason Dennis Kucinich is ignored. Because his views are widely divergent from the mainstream voters in his own party.

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He's neither the new thing or particularly charismatic. Some of the blame can probably be directed at Paul's campaign team; one of their primary responsibilities is getting their candidate placed in the media.

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I prefer Ron Paul to the Neo-

cons but let's remind ourselves that this is a pro-life guy who thinks the Civil War wasn't necessary. He doesn't believe in evolution and who wants to obliterate the social safety net, including public education. He does not believe in separation of church and state. he wants this to be a christian america and that churches should play a vital part.

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Because he doesn't represent a large voting consituency. Listen, people can tell themselves all day that there is an incipient libertarian strain waiting to take over the Republican party. There is absolutley no evidence that this is the case. One reason why I doubt that the tea party has any lasting influence on American politics is because I think the message of the tea party was pretty incoherent once you got past the one message all conservative agree upon. Which is that taxes should be cut. You don't need Ron Paul to argue for tax cuts. All the Republican candidates want that. Is it refreshing to see a guy like Paul, who would give the defense budget the same haircut he wants to give entitlement programs? Sure. But go tell seniors that you're going to cut Medicare and you'll learn that many Republicans don't even support entitlement cuts. And they sure as heck don't support cuts in defense spending. Or in law enforcement.So he's ignored for the same reason Dennis Kucinich is ignored. Because his views are widely divergent from the mainstream voters in his own party.

I think I agree with this guy.

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I prefer Ron Paul to the Neo-

cons but let's remind ourselves that this is a pro-life guy who thinks the Civil War wasn't necessary. He doesn't believe in evolution and who wants to obliterate the social safety net, including public education. He does not believe in separation of church and state. he wants this to be a christian america and that churches should play a vital part.

This is the first I've heard of the bolded parts. Is this verifiable?

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Because he doesn't represent a large voting consituency. Listen, people can tell themselves all day that there is an incipient libertarian strain waiting to take over the Republican party. There is absolutley no evidence that this is the case. One reason why I doubt that the tea party has any lasting influence on American politics is because I think the message of the tea party was pretty incoherent once you got past the one message all conservative agree upon. Which is that taxes should be cut. You don't need Ron Paul to argue for tax cuts. All the Republican candidates want that. Is it refreshing to see a guy like Paul, who would give the defense budget the same haircut he wants to give entitlement programs? Sure. But go tell seniors that you're going to cut Medicare and you'll learn that many Republicans don't even support entitlement cuts. And they sure as heck don't support cuts in defense spending. Or in law enforcement.So he's ignored for the same reason Dennis Kucinich is ignored. Because his views are widely divergent from the mainstream voters in his own party.

The Tea Party is not libertarian. In many ways, the Tea Party is the opposite of libertarian.However it started out, the Tea Party today represents whatever happens to be the simplistic, knee-jerk grass roots conservative position on any issue, with plenty of nativism thrown in for good measure.

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Because he doesn't represent a large voting consituency. Listen, people can tell themselves all day that there is an incipient libertarian strain waiting to take over the Republican party. There is absolutley no evidence that this is the case. One reason why I doubt that the tea party has any lasting influence on American politics is because I think the message of the tea party was pretty incoherent once you got past the one message all conservative agree upon. Which is that taxes should be cut. You don't need Ron Paul to argue for tax cuts. All the Republican candidates want that. Is it refreshing to see a guy like Paul, who would give the defense budget the same haircut he wants to give entitlement programs? Sure. But go tell seniors that you're going to cut Medicare and you'll learn that many Republicans don't even support entitlement cuts. And they sure as heck don't support cuts in defense spending. Or in law enforcement.So he's ignored for the same reason Dennis Kucinich is ignored. Because his views are widely divergent from the mainstream voters in his own party.

Dennis Kucinich is ignored because he's a lvl44 druid gnome with cloak of invisibility +20 stealth.He just makes me sad that the idiots will always be able to shout down really good ideas with insipid sloganeering. Another reason we need to displace democracy with an enlightened dictatorship.I think in order to be able to run for any serious office you should have to pass an IQ test, an American history test, and a test on either state or federal law, depending on the position.

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I prefer Ron Paul to the Neo-

cons but let's remind ourselves that this is a pro-life guy who thinks the Civil War wasn't necessary. He doesn't believe in evolution and who wants to obliterate the social safety net, including public education. He does not believe in separation of church and state. he wants this to be a christian america and that churches should play a vital part.

This is the first I've heard of the bolded parts. Is this verifiable?
Me too. Would like some annotation here.

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I would vote for him and not even think twice about it. Its time for a big change in Washington. What we have had the past 10 years or so isnt working.

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He is the most consistent proponent of true libertarian ideals which basically every GOP candidate outside of Romney claims to support.

Because neither GOP voters nor GOP candidates (aside from Paul and Johnson) support "true libertarian ideals". Conservatism is not libertarianism, even if some of the principles overlap.

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I get that a lot of what he says is initially scary. I mean, he wants to abolish the federal reserve, To be completely honest I don't really understand the full implications of that, but I like the sound of it.

I agree that his campaign managers are doing a horrible job. They don't coach him well and keep him from dropping bombs like that when in reality there is very, very little chance he could achieve these things even if elected.

He's committing the cardinal sin of actually speaking his mind and saying what he beleives. I bet that outside of Bachman, every single GOP candidate beleives that man-made emissions are contributing to climate change. But they know they can't say it, at least not until they win the nomination and then they'll backtrack saying that the science is inconclusive, but we still need to work to control emissions.

See, somehow I got this weird impression that this country was actually fed up with crap like that and wanted something different. But when someone comes around that is truly different, that does speak their mind and say things that they beleive yet might not be the best thing for their political career, they are almost always universally villified.

Which goes back to my argument that this country has simply either become too stupid or too bamboozled to steer its own ship.

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Age.

:goodposting: If people had a problem voting for Regan for his 2nd term, they are not going to be able to look past Ron's Age.At times, IMO, he comes off as that grumpy man down the street that no one wants to talk to unless they absolutely need to.

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I prefer Ron Paul to the Neo-

cons but let's remind ourselves that this is a pro-life guy who thinks the Civil War wasn't necessary. He doesn't believe in evolution and who wants to obliterate the social safety net, including public education. He does not believe in separation of church and state. he wants this to be a christian america and that churches should play a vital part.

This is the first I've heard of the bolded parts. Is this verifiable?
Me too. Would like some annotation here.
The evolution part is on youtube - very easy to find. I can't go to youtube from work.

Separation of Church and State.

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People are afraid of him. I think the most he could garner in any voting process is about 20-25% and maybe not that high. He is intelligent...think about that for a minute. The avg IQ in this country is somewhere between 90-100 roughly. The folks with IQs North of 125 who he likely makes the most sense with...there really are not that many people in the 125+ range. Don't get me wrong, in the higher fields like medical for instance, likely a larger percentage of those people have high IQs...the point is many people don't understand him but he probably is the best GOP candidate there is right now. I have no doubt he would do great things but the vast majority of this country just simply is nowhere ready for him or his type of administration.

Would love to see him get the nomination even if Obama steamrolls him in the 2012 election.

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I prefer Ron Paul to the Neo-

cons but let's remind ourselves that this is a pro-life guy who thinks the Civil War wasn't necessary. He doesn't believe in evolution and who wants to obliterate the social safety net, including public education. He does not believe in separation of church and state. he wants this to be a christian america and that churches should play a vital part.

This is the first I've heard of the bolded parts. Is this verifiable?
Me too. Would like some annotation here.
The evolution part is on youtube - very easy to find. I can't go to youtube from work.

Separation of Church and State.

"The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life."

Seems accurate to me.

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I've traditionally been a very liberal voter. I've voted for exactly two Republican candidates in the past 20 years.

I would vote for Ron Paul ahead of any Democrat candidate.

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I prefer Ron Paul to the Neo-

cons but let's remind ourselves that this is a pro-life guy who thinks the Civil War wasn't necessary. He doesn't believe in evolution and who wants to obliterate the social safety net, including public education. He does not believe in separation of church and state. he wants this to be a christian america and that churches should play a vital part.

This is the first I've heard of the bolded parts. Is this verifiable?
Me too. Would like some annotation here.
The evolution part is on youtube - very easy to find. I can't go to youtube from work.

Separation of Church and State.

"The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life."

Seems accurate to me.

Entirely different debate. I was just providing the requested documentation of Ron Paul's stances on these issues in the context of why he is being ignored.

ETA:

Mr. Paul claims that the Constitution is "replete with references to God". Now replete means abundantly supplied or filled. So if the Constitution is abundantly filled with references to God how many are there? Let's get precise. How many times is God mentioned in the Constitution?

Zero!

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I get that a lot of what he says is initially scary. I mean, he wants to abolish the federal reserve, To be completely honest I don't really understand the full implications of that, but I like the sound of it.I agree that his campaign managers are doing a horrible job. They don't coach him well and keep him from dropping bombs like that when in reality there is very, very little chance he could achieve these things even if elected.He's committing the cardinal sin of actually speaking his mind and saying what he beleives. I bet that outside of Bachman, every single GOP candidate beleives that man-made emissions are contributing to climate change. But they know they can't say it, at least not until they win the nomination and then they'll backtrack saying that the science is inconclusive, but we still need to work to control emissions.See, somehow I got this weird impression that this country was actually fed up with crap like that and wanted something different. But when someone comes around that is truly different, that does speak their mind and say things that they beleive yet might not be the best thing for their political career, they are almost always universally villified.Which goes back to my argument that this country has simply either become too stupid or too bamboozled to steer its own ship.

:goodposting: We are seeing the problem with a democratic system before our eyes. The people.

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I get that a lot of what he says is initially scary. I mean, he wants to abolish the federal reserve, To be completely honest I don't really understand the full implications of that, but I like the sound of it.I agree that his campaign managers are doing a horrible job. They don't coach him well and keep him from dropping bombs like that when in reality there is very, very little chance he could achieve these things even if elected.He's committing the cardinal sin of actually speaking his mind and saying what he beleives. I bet that outside of Bachman, every single GOP candidate beleives that man-made emissions are contributing to climate change. But they know they can't say it, at least not until they win the nomination and then they'll backtrack saying that the science is inconclusive, but we still need to work to control emissions.See, somehow I got this weird impression that this country was actually fed up with crap like that and wanted something different. But when someone comes around that is truly different, that does speak their mind and say things that they beleive yet might not be the best thing for their political career, they are almost always universally villified.Which goes back to my argument that this country has simply either become too stupid or too bamboozled to steer its own ship.

:goodposting:
:goodposting: :goodposting:

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Because it's June 2011 and most people don't care about any of the GOP candidates right now.

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Because it's June 2011 and most people don't care about any of the GOP candidates right now.

The pushers and pullers right now are all activist - but remember the activists are who is driving the GOP right now.

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If you watch primarily Fox or MSNBC you wouldn't even know he was running. In most conversations on this board about 2012 GOP Hopefuls you don't see his name mentioned. Routinely people like Bachmann, Trump, Pawlenty, Christie, and Gingrich are mentioned as serious candidates. Even Palin.My question is why? This guy CREATED the tea party movement. He is the most consistent proponent of true libertarian ideals which basically every GOP candidate outside of Romney claims to support. There is not a candidate in the field who even approaches him on fiscal conservatism and he likely is the ONLY candidate in the field who would actually solve our financial crisis.Is it really because he doesn't give a crap if gays get married?

Because he doesn't fit the narrative of the GOP. If we've learned anything, it's that the narrative come first, THEN the issues and way on down the line the people. I'm not a big fan of his isolationist approach, but there are a lot of things I agree with him on otherwise.

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I have no problem with that statement on separation of church and state. I'd be surprised if he actually said something as simple as "I don't believe in evolution."

What I have seen from him is a man who is very intelligent, not at all afraid to challenge the established dogma of either party or the American people as a whole if he feels it doesn't make sense.

For instance, I don't know of any serious democratic candidate of the past 10-15 years has recommended the cuts in defense spending he has. I don't know of any liberal candidate that has recommended legalizing all drugs and prostitution.

He's not only going straight against both parties, he's going against the "Drugs are bad, mmkay" numbnuts out there as well. People who talk about wanting change but in all actuality can't handle correcting the most obvious and glaring mistakes in our legal system and culture. If you're a true laissez-faire economist as ALL republicans claim to be (they practically worship at the altar of unregulated capitalism), you have to recognize that drug-dealers and prostitutes supply a high-demand product that stimulates (pun intended) the economy.

We talk about taking care of America first but we still build aircraft carriers and pay for bases all over the world. Paul is the only politician on either side that I have seen that represents real change, and I think it honestly scares the hell out of most people, no mater how much they claim to be dissatisfied with the status quo.

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But go tell seniors that you're going to cut Medicare and you'll learn that many Republicans don't even support entitlement cuts. And they sure as heck don't support cuts in defense spending. Or in law enforcement.

Correct.And this is why the government will fail.

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I get that a lot of what he says is initially scary. I mean, he wants to abolish the federal reserve, To be completely honest I don't really understand the full implications of that, but I like the sound of it.

:wall:

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We are seeing the problem with a democratic system before our eyes. The people.

correct

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We are seeing the problem with a democratic system before our eyes. The people.

correct"When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic."- Ben Franklin"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."- Winston Churchill

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Which goes back to my argument that this country has simply either become too stupid or too bamboozled to steer its own ship.

YES, YES, YESSomebody gets it.When I say America is getting what it deservers, this is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

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Because he doesn't represent a large voting consituency. Listen, people can tell themselves all day that there is an incipient libertarian strain waiting to take over the Republican party. There is absolutley no evidence that this is the case. One reason why I doubt that the tea party has any lasting influence on American politics is because I think the message of the tea party was pretty incoherent once you got past the one message all conservative agree upon. Which is that taxes should be cut. You don't need Ron Paul to argue for tax cuts. All the Republican candidates want that. Is it refreshing to see a guy like Paul, who would give the defense budget the same haircut he wants to give entitlement programs? Sure. But go tell seniors that you're going to cut Medicare and you'll learn that many Republicans don't even support entitlement cuts. And they sure as heck don't support cuts in defense spending. Or in law enforcement.

So he's ignored for the same reason Dennis Kucinich is ignored. Because his views are widely divergent from the mainstream voters in his own party.

Dennis Kucinich is ignored because he's a lvl44 druid gnome with cloak of invisibility +20 stealth.

He just makes me sad that the idiots will always be able to shout down really good ideas with insipid sloganeering. Another reason we need to displace democracy with an enlightened dictatorship.

I think in order to be able to run for any serious office you should have to pass an IQ test, an American history test, and a test on either state or federal law, depending on the position.

How can we get this done? We're not gonna get this debt issue figured out in time with the current system. We need like a pause button or something.

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I get that a lot of what he says is initially scary. I mean, he wants to abolish the federal reserve, To be completely honest I don't really understand the full implications of that, but I like the sound of it.

:wall:
I know how that sounds. I am being lazy but will have researched this proposal before casting any votes.

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At times, IMO, he comes off as that grumpy man down the street that no one wants to talk to unless they absolutely need to.

GET OFF OF MY LAWN!!!

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Because he doesn't represent a large voting consituency. Listen, people can tell themselves all day that there is an incipient libertarian strain waiting to take over the Republican party. There is absolutley no evidence that this is the case. One reason why I doubt that the tea party has any lasting influence on American politics is because I think the message of the tea party was pretty incoherent once you got past the one message all conservative agree upon. Which is that taxes should be cut. You don't need Ron Paul to argue for tax cuts. All the Republican candidates want that. Is it refreshing to see a guy like Paul, who would give the defense budget the same haircut he wants to give entitlement programs? Sure. But go tell seniors that you're going to cut Medicare and you'll learn that many Republicans don't even support entitlement cuts. And they sure as heck don't support cuts in defense spending. Or in law enforcement.

So he's ignored for the same reason Dennis Kucinich is ignored. Because his views are widely divergent from the mainstream voters in his own party.

Dennis Kucinich is ignored because he's a lvl44 druid gnome with cloak of invisibility +20 stealth.

He just makes me sad that the idiots will always be able to shout down really good ideas with insipid sloganeering. Another reason we need to displace democracy with an enlightened dictatorship.

I think in order to be able to run for any serious office you should have to pass an IQ test, an American history test, and a test on either state or federal law, depending on the position.

How can we get this done?
First you institute the tests for all positions mayor and above. I honestly think it should be everything state legislature and above but am realistic about how many smart people actually want to enter local politics.

Once you have weeded out the idiots from the political process (and boy howdy what a different field it would have been over the years) you average "Joe the Plumber" and "Take your laws off my body" voters will become completely disinterested in the voting process as they wouldn't be hearing their own idiotic assumptions and prejudices echoed (this might not work I admit. Most politicians today are not as dumb as they want to appear. However, by removing the Bachmanns, Palins, and Trumps from the process you may be able to raise discourse just a little.)

As voting populations wane, there will be little reason to keep up the facade of democracy and you cane move to similar tests for voting. Since most of the morons will have stopped voting by this point anyway you should be able to sneak this through.

Then you have it. IF you don't have a certain IQ and can't answer some basic government and history questions, you can't run and you can't vote.

That, or charge $1 to vote.

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Because he doesn't represent a large voting consituency. Listen, people can tell themselves all day that there is an incipient libertarian strain waiting to take over the Republican party. There is absolutley no evidence that this is the case. One reason why I doubt that the tea party has any lasting influence on American politics is because I think the message of the tea party was pretty incoherent once you got past the one message all conservative agree upon. Which is that taxes should be cut. You don't need Ron Paul to argue for tax cuts. All the Republican candidates want that. Is it refreshing to see a guy like Paul, who would give the defense budget the same haircut he wants to give entitlement programs? Sure. But go tell seniors that you're going to cut Medicare and you'll learn that many Republicans don't even support entitlement cuts. And they sure as heck don't support cuts in defense spending. Or in law enforcement.

So he's ignored for the same reason Dennis Kucinich is ignored. Because his views are widely divergent from the mainstream voters in his own party.

Dennis Kucinich is ignored because he's a lvl44 druid gnome with cloak of invisibility +20 stealth.

He just makes me sad that the idiots will always be able to shout down really good ideas with insipid sloganeering. Another reason we need to displace democracy with an enlightened dictatorship.

I think in order to be able to run for any serious office you should have to pass an IQ test, an American history test, and a test on either state or federal law, depending on the position.

How can we get this done? We're not gonna get this debt issue figured out in time with the current system. We need like a pause button or something.
financial collapse...which is unlikely to happen.

America's current course will be that of many European nations...quality of life and the nation's power and wealth will slowly erode...although it may happen faster than expected.

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