What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

The Citizens United Catastrophe (1 Viewer)

cubd8

Footballguy
The Citizens United Catastrophe

E.J. Dionne Jr.

Washington Post Link

We have seen the world created by the Supreme Court's Citizens United decision, and it doesn't work. Oh, yes, it works nicely for the wealthiest and most powerful people in the country, especially if they want to shroud their efforts to influence politics behind shell corporations. It just doesn't happen to work if you think we are a democracy and not a plutocracy.

Two years ago, Citizens United tore down a century's worth of law aimed at reducing the amount of corruption in our electoral system. It will go down as one of the most naive decisions ever rendered by the court.

The strongest case against judicial activism -- against "legislating from the bench," as former President George W. Bush liked to say -- is that judges are not accountable for the new systems they put in place, whether by accident or design.

The Citizens United justices were not required to think through the practical consequences of sweeping aside decades of work by legislators, going back to the passage of the landmark Tillman Act in 1907, who sought to prevent untoward influence-peddling and indirect bribery.

If ever a court majority legislated from the bench (with Bush's own appointees leading the way), it was the bunch that voted for Citizens United. Did a single justice in the majority even imagine a world of super PACs and phony corporations set up for the sole purpose of disguising a donor's identity? Did they think that a presidential candidacy might be kept alive largely through the generosity of a Las Vegas gambling magnate with important financial interests in China? Did they consider that the democratizing gains made in the last presidential campaign through the rise of small online contributors might be wiped out by the brute force of millionaires and billionaires determined to have their way?

"The appearance of influence or access, furthermore, will not cause the electorate to lose faith in our democracy." Those were Justice Anthony Kennedy's words in his majority opinion. How did he know that? Did he consult the electorate? Did he think this would be true just because he said it?

Justice John Paul Stevens' observation in his dissent reads far better than Kennedy's in light of subsequent events. "A democracy cannot function effectively," he wrote, "when its constituent members believe laws are being bought and sold."

But ascribing an outrageous decision to naivete is actually the most sympathetic way of looking at what the court did in Citizens United. A more troubling interpretation is that a conservative majority knew exactly what it was doing: that it set out to remake our political system by fiat in order to strengthen the hand of corporations and the wealthy. Seen this way, Citizens United was an attempt by five justices to push future electoral outcomes in a direction that would entrench their approach to governance.

In fact, this decision should be seen as part of a larger initiative by moneyed conservatives to rig the electoral system against their opponents. How else to explain conservative legislation in state after state to obstruct access to the ballot by lower-income voters -- particularly members of minority groups -- though voter identification laws, shortened voting periods and restrictions on voter registration campaigns? Conservatives are strengthening the hand of the rich at one end of the system and weakening the voting power of the poor at the other. It's a clever set of moves if you can get away with them.

Those who doubt that Citizens United (combined, it must be said, with a comatose Federal Election Commission) has created an entirely new political world with far broader openings for corruption should consult important news reports last week by Nicholas Confessore and Michael Luo in The New York Times and by T.W. Farnam in The Washington Post. Both accounts show how American politics has become a bazaar for the very wealthy and for increasingly aggressive corporations. We might consider having candidates wear corporate logos. This would be more honest than pretending that tens of millions in cash will have no impact on how we will be governed.

In the short run, Congress should do all it can within the limits of Citizens United to contain the damage it is causing. In the long run, we have to hope that a future Supreme Court will overturn this monstrosity, remembering that the first words of our Constitution are "We the People," not "We the Rich."

 
I understand what they are trying to accomplish here, but how can you restrict someone's freedom of speech. If I decide I want to spend $20 million of my own money running ads saying that Obama is a scumbag, why should the Federal Government be allowed to squash my speech. It's my money and my opinion which I'm free to express.

The basic idea of what is happening here is that you can only shut this down by telling Americans they are not allowed to use their own money to voice their opposition to a particular person or to the Government. Imagine if the Federal Government started arresting or fining people for speaking out against it. That's exactly what you'd have to do to shut this down. With a country this big and advertising this expensive, saying someone can only spend $10K on voicing their opposition means you are preventing them from even running an ad in their local paper, let alone broadcasting their disgust with the Government nationally.

The Constitution protects the rights of people who choose to speak out against what is happening with their elected officials. Dangerous precedent to strip that from people, because where does it stop?

 
I'm not especially a fan of Citizens United as best I understand it. But for E.J. Dionne to call it a catastrophe already, he's going to have to demonstrate exactly how our current election cycle would be different if this decision had never come down. He doesn't do that, at least not the editiorial.

What I mean by different is either (a) somebody would not have won a primary or caucus or (b) the public's belief in our political system is demonstrably weakened as a result of this decision. (There is no doubt in my mind that the public's belief in the political system is at a low point right now, but that has to do with a whole list of factors, and I'm not convinced that Citizens United is even on that list, much less topping it.)

Unless someone can prove one of the above items to be true, I don't see how anyone could term that decision catastrophic.

 
I understand what they are trying to accomplish here, but how can you restrict someone's freedom of speech. If I decide I want to spend $20 million of my own money running ads saying that Obama is a scumbag, why should the Federal Government be allowed to squash my speech. It's my money and my opinion which I'm free to express.The basic idea of what is happening here is that you can only shut this down by telling Americans they are not allowed to use their own money to voice their opposition to a particular person or to the Government. Imagine if the Federal Government started arresting or fining people for speaking out against it. That's exactly what you'd have to do to shut this down. With a country this big and advertising this expensive, saying someone can only spend $10K on voicing their opposition means you are preventing them from even running an ad in their local paper, let alone broadcasting their disgust with the Government nationally. The Constitution protects the rights of people who choose to speak out against what is happening with their elected officials. Dangerous precedent to strip that from people, because where does it stop?
But were not talking about people donating as much as they want. Citizens United allows giant corporations to donate as much as they want, basically controlling who gets elected and who doesn't. There is nothing preventing GE, or oil companies, or phone companies, or microsoft, or nike, etc... from buying candidates with millions of dollars, and then buying the election with tens of millions of dollars.
 
I understand what they are trying to accomplish here, but how can you restrict someone's freedom of speech. If I decide I want to spend $20 million of my own money running ads saying that Obama is a scumbag, why should the Federal Government be allowed to squash my speech. It's my money and my opinion which I'm free to express.The basic idea of what is happening here is that you can only shut this down by telling Americans they are not allowed to use their own money to voice their opposition to a particular person or to the Government. Imagine if the Federal Government started arresting or fining people for speaking out against it. That's exactly what you'd have to do to shut this down. With a country this big and advertising this expensive, saying someone can only spend $10K on voicing their opposition means you are preventing them from even running an ad in their local paper, let alone broadcasting their disgust with the Government nationally. The Constitution protects the rights of people who choose to speak out against what is happening with their elected officials. Dangerous precedent to strip that from people, because where does it stop?
But were not talking about people donating as much as they want. Citizens United allows giant corporations to donate as much as they want, basically controlling who gets elected and who doesn't. There is nothing preventing GE, or oil companies, or phone companies, or microsoft, or nike, etc... from buying candidates with millions of dollars, and then buying the election with tens of millions of dollars.
Again, are you really trying to suggest that this didn't happen before the decision?Also, I have to say that the recent success of Rick Santorum in the last few Republican primaries seems to challenge the whole notion that elections can simply be purchased.
 
I understand what they are trying to accomplish here, but how can you restrict someone's freedom of speech. If I decide I want to spend $20 million of my own money running ads saying that Obama is a scumbag, why should the Federal Government be allowed to squash my speech. It's my money and my opinion which I'm free to express.The basic idea of what is happening here is that you can only shut this down by telling Americans they are not allowed to use their own money to voice their opposition to a particular person or to the Government. Imagine if the Federal Government started arresting or fining people for speaking out against it. That's exactly what you'd have to do to shut this down. With a country this big and advertising this expensive, saying someone can only spend $10K on voicing their opposition means you are preventing them from even running an ad in their local paper, let alone broadcasting their disgust with the Government nationally. The Constitution protects the rights of people who choose to speak out against what is happening with their elected officials. Dangerous precedent to strip that from people, because where does it stop?
But were not talking about people donating as much as they want. Citizens United allows giant corporations to donate as much as they want, basically controlling who gets elected and who doesn't. There is nothing preventing GE, or oil companies, or phone companies, or microsoft, or nike, etc... from buying candidates with millions of dollars, and then buying the election with tens of millions of dollars.
That's not entirely accurate. Citizen's United was a company that wanted to air a short film about Hillary Clinton, a person whose policies the non-profit disagreed with. This would be no different than the NRA or Right to Life organization voicing their political viewpoint. The case requires any ad of this sort to identify their organization as the source in the ad. The 1st Amendment's #1 priority is protecting political speech. If it serves no other purpose, this is the primary reason it exists. By passing a law, well intended or not, which tells a group of people that they are not allowed to band together to voice their displeasure with a political figure, is supressing that freedom. Sure, you can say that people can act individually, but what good does that do for a person like me or you? In order for our voices to truly be heard, we have to band together with our donations in order to afford advertising voicing that displeasure. If our right to do that is restricted then we are essentially being silenced by the Federal Government and the 1st Amendment directly prevents that from happening. Well intended or not, you simply CANNOT silence the ability of a person or group of people, represented by the will of an organization, corporation, or Union from voicing their political displeasure about a political figure. The main group affected by this ruling was Citizen's United, which is a political organization whose primary purpose as a group is to voice conservative principles and point out their opinion of political wrongs. Their freedom of speech was repressed and restrained by this law as it was written. They were not some mega-corporation or oil congolmerate looking to buy an election. Shouldn't the NRA, which consists of a group of individuals, be able to advertise their disgust with certain candidates? Shouldn't Unions, which consist of large groups of individuals, be able to advertise their disgust with certain politicians who don't support their view? What about pro-life groups? Conservative groups? Liberal groups? Chambers of Commerce? These groups all represent people who band together to try and afford the high cost of advertising their opinions. Why should their voice be supressed simply because they are not mega rich?
 
'Matthias said:
This may be the finest piece Dionne has ever written (although granted, it's kind of a low bar).
Of course the liberal press doesn't like it. It takes away their position as the almost sole arbiters of political discussion. If the world were one in which Fox News and conservative talk show radio were the overwhelming ambience, they would be arguing for Citizens United.
 
I understand what they are trying to accomplish here, but how can you restrict someone's freedom of speech. If I decide I want to spend $20 million of my own money running ads saying that Obama is a scumbag, why should the Federal Government be allowed to squash my speech. It's my money and my opinion which I'm free to express.The basic idea of what is happening here is that you can only shut this down by telling Americans they are not allowed to use their own money to voice their opposition to a particular person or to the Government. Imagine if the Federal Government started arresting or fining people for speaking out against it. That's exactly what you'd have to do to shut this down. With a country this big and advertising this expensive, saying someone can only spend $10K on voicing their opposition means you are preventing them from even running an ad in their local paper, let alone broadcasting their disgust with the Government nationally. The Constitution protects the rights of people who choose to speak out against what is happening with their elected officials. Dangerous precedent to strip that from people, because where does it stop?
But were not talking about people donating as much as they want. Citizens United allows giant corporations to donate as much as they want, basically controlling who gets elected and who doesn't. There is nothing preventing GE, or oil companies, or phone companies, or microsoft, or nike, etc... from buying candidates with millions of dollars, and then buying the election with tens of millions of dollars.
That's not entirely accurate. Citizen's United was a company that wanted to air a short film about Hillary Clinton, a person whose policies the non-profit disagreed with. This would be no different than the NRA or Right to Life organization voicing their political viewpoint. The case requires any ad of this sort to identify their organization as the source in the ad. The 1st Amendment's #1 priority is protecting political speech. If it serves no other purpose, this is the primary reason it exists. By passing a law, well intended or not, which tells a group of people that they are not allowed to band together to voice their displeasure with a political figure, is supressing that freedom. Sure, you can say that people can act individually, but what good does that do for a person like me or you? In order for our voices to truly be heard, we have to band together with our donations in order to afford advertising voicing that displeasure. If our right to do that is restricted then we are essentially being silenced by the Federal Government and the 1st Amendment directly prevents that from happening. Well intended or not, you simply CANNOT silence the ability of a person or group of people, represented by the will of an organization, corporation, or Union from voicing their political displeasure about a political figure. The main group affected by this ruling was Citizen's United, which is a political organization whose primary purpose as a group is to voice conservative principles and point out their opinion of political wrongs. Their freedom of speech was repressed and restrained by this law as it was written. They were not some mega-corporation or oil congolmerate looking to buy an election. Shouldn't the NRA, which consists of a group of individuals, be able to advertise their disgust with certain candidates? Shouldn't Unions, which consist of large groups of individuals, be able to advertise their disgust with certain politicians who don't support their view? What about pro-life groups? Conservative groups? Liberal groups? Chambers of Commerce? These groups all represent people who band together to try and afford the high cost of advertising their opinions. Why should their voice be supressed simply because they are not mega rich?
There was nothing preventing the NRA from doing that before.But now, candidates can recieve giant sums of money from "anonymous" donors. I would like to know who's filling the candidates pockets, and because of this law, I can't.
 
All you guys do is keep arguing the merits and problems with the CU decision. But that was not the point of Dionne's article. Dionne is arguing that the decision is destroying our political process right now. And he never explains how. How would things be diferent without it? I'm not getting this.

 
I understand what they are trying to accomplish here, but how can you restrict someone's freedom of speech. If I decide I want to spend $20 million of my own money running ads saying that Obama is a scumbag, why should the Federal Government be allowed to squash my speech. It's my money and my opinion which I'm free to express.The basic idea of what is happening here is that you can only shut this down by telling Americans they are not allowed to use their own money to voice their opposition to a particular person or to the Government. Imagine if the Federal Government started arresting or fining people for speaking out against it. That's exactly what you'd have to do to shut this down. With a country this big and advertising this expensive, saying someone can only spend $10K on voicing their opposition means you are preventing them from even running an ad in their local paper, let alone broadcasting their disgust with the Government nationally. The Constitution protects the rights of people who choose to speak out against what is happening with their elected officials. Dangerous precedent to strip that from people, because where does it stop?
But were not talking about people donating as much as they want. Citizens United allows giant corporations to donate as much as they want, basically controlling who gets elected and who doesn't. There is nothing preventing GE, or oil companies, or phone companies, or microsoft, or nike, etc... from buying candidates with millions of dollars, and then buying the election with tens of millions of dollars.
That's not entirely accurate. Citizen's United was a company that wanted to air a short film about Hillary Clinton, a person whose policies the non-profit disagreed with. This would be no different than the NRA or Right to Life organization voicing their political viewpoint. The case requires any ad of this sort to identify their organization as the source in the ad. The 1st Amendment's #1 priority is protecting political speech. If it serves no other purpose, this is the primary reason it exists. By passing a law, well intended or not, which tells a group of people that they are not allowed to band together to voice their displeasure with a political figure, is supressing that freedom. Sure, you can say that people can act individually, but what good does that do for a person like me or you? In order for our voices to truly be heard, we have to band together with our donations in order to afford advertising voicing that displeasure. If our right to do that is restricted then we are essentially being silenced by the Federal Government and the 1st Amendment directly prevents that from happening. Well intended or not, you simply CANNOT silence the ability of a person or group of people, represented by the will of an organization, corporation, or Union from voicing their political displeasure about a political figure. The main group affected by this ruling was Citizen's United, which is a political organization whose primary purpose as a group is to voice conservative principles and point out their opinion of political wrongs. Their freedom of speech was repressed and restrained by this law as it was written. They were not some mega-corporation or oil congolmerate looking to buy an election. Shouldn't the NRA, which consists of a group of individuals, be able to advertise their disgust with certain candidates? Shouldn't Unions, which consist of large groups of individuals, be able to advertise their disgust with certain politicians who don't support their view? What about pro-life groups? Conservative groups? Liberal groups? Chambers of Commerce? These groups all represent people who band together to try and afford the high cost of advertising their opinions. Why should their voice be supressed simply because they are not mega rich?
There was nothing preventing the NRA from doing that before.But now, candidates can recieve giant sums of money from "anonymous" donors. I would like to know who's filling the candidates pockets, and because of this law, I can't.
1000% inaccurate. Candidates cannot receive a nickel from anonymous donors. Candidates donors have to be tracked to the penny. Only Super PAC's can fund anonymously and they should be able to. American citizens have a right to voice their opinions in opposition of the Government, political figures, and politics in general without the Government being able to identify who it is that is speaking out against them. These groups are Americans that band together and political speech is protected. Big Brother has no business knowing where every nickel of my money is going, especially if it is going to speak out against them since that could lead to unfair retaliation by the Government. Freedom of Speech, upheld by the US Supreme Court, allows for individuals to pool their financial resources to speak out against the Government or all things political provided they do not specifically endorse a candidate or campaign.
 
1000% inaccurate. Candidates cannot receive a nickel from anonymous donors. Candidates donors have to be tracked to the penny. Only Super PAC's can fund anonymously and they should be able to. American citizens have a right to voice their opinions in opposition of the Government, political figures, and politics in general without the Government being able to identify who it is that is speaking out against them. These groups are Americans that band together and political speech is protected. Big Brother has no business knowing where every nickel of my money is going, especially if it is going to speak out against them since that could lead to unfair retaliation by the Government. Freedom of Speech, upheld by the US Supreme Court, allows for individuals to pool their financial resources to speak out against the Government or all things political provided they do not specifically endorse a candidate or campaign.
So I am accurate, donations are anonymous. You call Super PACs Americans banding together (although we don't know who is in these Super PACs). I call Super PACs anonymous donors from all over the world that want to buy the presidency.
 
1000% inaccurate.

Candidates cannot receive a nickel from anonymous donors. Candidates donors have to be tracked to the penny. Only Super PAC's can fund anonymously and they should be able to. American citizens have a right to voice their opinions in opposition of the Government, political figures, and politics in general without the Government being able to identify who it is that is speaking out against them. These groups are Americans that band together and political speech is protected. Big Brother has no business knowing where every nickel of my money is going, especially if it is going to speak out against them since that could lead to unfair retaliation by the Government.

Freedom of Speech, upheld by the US Supreme Court, allows for individuals to pool their financial resources to speak out against the Government or all things political provided they do not specifically endorse a candidate or campaign.
So I am accurate, donations are anonymous. You call Super PACs Americans banding together (although we don't know who is in these Super PACs). I call Super PACs anonymous donors from all over the world that want to buy the presidency.
Incorrect. You are NOT accurate that donations to Super PAC's can be made anonymously. They are no easier to disguise than traditional contributions and by law, are required to be disclosed.III. The Creation of the Super-PAC

The final major change in the 2010 election cycle was the deregulation of federal political committees that make only independent expenditures.

As explained in the sections below, federal political committees have long been subject to limits on the funds they raise, although they could spend such funds without limit provided they did so independently of candidates and parties. This year, however, the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals in SpeechNow.org v. FEC struck down the federal limits on contributions to federal political committees that make only independent expenditures and do not contribute to candidates or political parties. This type of “independent expenditure committee” is inherently non-corruptive, the Court reasoned, and therefore contributions to such a committee can not be limited based on the government’s interest in preventing political corruption.

The FEC clarified the impact of this decision by issuing two advisory opinions in July of this year. The first opinion confirmed that political committees that make only independent expenditures are not bound by the federal contribution limits, and the second extended the SpeechNow.org holding to exempt independent expenditure committees from the corporate and union contribution source restrictions as well.

Thus, independent expenditure committees, dubbed “Super PACs,” are now permitted to raise unlimited sums of money from individuals, corporations and unions. It is important to note, however, that Super PACs are still registered federal political committees and thus remain subject to the comprehensive registration, reporting and recordkeeping requirements of federal campaign finance law. Examples of active Super PACs include American Crossroads and America's Families First Action Fund.[

By January 2010, at least 38 states and the federal government required disclosure for all or some independent expenditures or electioneering communications, regardless of whether the speaker is a corporation.[31] These disclosures were intended to deter potentially or seemingly corrupting donations,[32] and to allow voters to determine to whom a candidate may hold obligations after taking office.[33]

In the case of PACs, the source of donations is eventually disclosed, however, depending on timing of disclosure reports, disclosure in some cases didn't occur until after the election was held.[40] The eventual disclosure often lent credibility to a debate that some PACs were not truly independent.[41] Reports have disclosed instances where PACs were managed by close associates, former staff, or a candidates family member, and/or that those making the donations were individuals like these.[42] This in turn has led the press to determine voter intent to support the efforts of a specific candidate according to which PAC a contribution is made.[43] For example the press referred to a filing by Restore Our Future, Inc, that listed 3 large donations by coworkers of 2012 presidential candidate Mitt Romney, as being "Mitt Romney's FEC filing". [44]

All donors are eventually disclosed and an independent review by the AP showed no foreign investment by foreign Governments.

You are also NOT accurate that these donations can go to Candidates or their Campaigns.

 
But you weren't suppressing the voice of the american people before this. All you were doing was limiting how much a person can contribute. And as you said earlier, the people, or businesses making the contribution aren't known until after the election.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
So I am accurate, donations are anonymous. You call Super PACs Americans banding together (although we don't know who is in these Super PACs). I call Super PACs anonymous donors from all over the world that want to buy the presidency.
Let's assume you're correct about this. This coming election is going to be between Barack Obama and either Mitt Romney or Rick Santorum. I think we can agree that if it's between Obama and Santorum, that means that money didn't buy it, because otherwise no way could Santorum be there.But let's assume that it's between Obama and Romney. How would the result be any different without Citizens United? It seems to me that the result would be exactly the same. The process of getting there might be a little different, but in the end it would still be Obama and Romney, and it would still come down to the swing states.

So I fail to see how this decision, which again I don't like, is a "catastrophe". Prove that it's actually had an effect before you make this claim.

 
But you weren't suppressing the voice of the american people before this. All you were doing was limiting how much a person can contribute. And as you said earlier, the people, or businesses making the contribution aren't known until after the election.
PLEASE BE SPECIFIC!!In what SPECIFIC way would the outcome to this election be changed if the "voice of the American people was not suppressed", as you put it?
 
But you weren't suppressing the voice of the american people before this. All you were doing was limiting how much a person can contribute. And as you said earlier, the people, or businesses making the contribution aren't known until after the election.
Lots of them are, yes.That has nothing to do with this and changing Citizens United would not affect politicians being bought in any way.
 
but how can you restrict someone's freedom of speech.
Because you are promoting old European style of unequal representation. The haves and have nots.

Which goes against exactly the ideals on which this country was founded.

The rich can still say whatever they want... they just cant buy advertising for it.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
One thing Dionne is absolutely correct about is that the conservative majority knew exactly what they were doing. It is why they were put on the SC, to further conservative causes above all else. Over time, money will decide many more elections than it should and to many of the "donors" millions of $'s means nothing more than an attempt to buy even more influence. This decision shows why the majority on this court are nothing more than political hacks.

 
One thing Dionne is absolutely correct about is that the conservative majority knew exactly what they were doing. It is why they were put on the SC, to further conservative causes above all else. Over time, money will decide many more elections than it should and to many of the "donors" millions of s means nothing more than an attempt to buy even more influence. This decision shows why the majority on this court are nothing more than political hacks.
If the conservatives behind this knew exactly what they were doing, Rick Santorum would not be leading in the polls. His success against Romney indicates to me that Citizens United is far less effective than people think it is.
 
Thanks to citizens united Obama super PACs are running negative ads against Romney in Michigan.
Can't go to a knife fight with a wadded up newspaper, no matter how reprehensible you might find knives.
What does Obama have to do with a republican primary in Michigan? Nothing. Its hard for a liberal like Dionne to make a point while simultaneously ignoring the elephant in the room.
 
From left-wing commie rag Slate

Why Super PACs Are Good for Democracy

They’ve made the race for the White House a lot more fair.

By David Weigel |Posted Monday, Feb. 13, 2012, at 7:58 PM ET

The call came in from the “blocked” number, and like a fool I answered it.

“Mr. Weegal? Why-gell? Hi, I’m calling on behalf of Russ Feingold and the Progressives United PAC.”

If I made a donation, I would help the former senator combat corporate personhood and save America from the Citizens United decision. The super PACs would be humbled. Feingold could continue accusing the president of “dancing with the devil” when he courts the Supers.

The solicitor seemed like a very nice person, with a lousy job; I don’t donate to political causes. (There is a hint for you here, Ron Paul’s Campaign for Liberty.) Unfortunately for the cause, it’s getting harder to argue that super PACs have horribly degraded our elections. In this first presidential election since the dawn of the supers, they have actually—and probably by accident!—given us a more competitive, transparent Republican primary. They are, in a sense, a good thing for our democracy.

Start with the “competitive” part. Subtract the super PACs, and Mitt Romney would have outraised his Republican competitors by a factor of at least 2-1, in most cases 5-1. In 2011, Romney’s campaign raised $56.5 million and spent $36.6 million. His closest competitor, Ron Paul, raised $25.9 million and spent $24.0 million. The two of them, who’d built national fundraising networks in 2008, raised more than the rest of the Republican field combined—$80.5 million to roughly $73.6 million.

Add in the super PAC money and the advantage fades. Romney’s campaign had outspent Newt Gingrich’s campaign by a 7-2 margin and outspent Rick Santorum’s by a 19-1 margin. According to the Sunlight Foundation, which has tracked the super PACs all year, the Romney-centric Restore Our Future PAC outspent the pro-Gingrich Winning Our Future PAC only 2-1. It outspent the Santorum-philic Red, White and Blue fund by slightly better than 8-1, which was just what the PAC needed to spend to get its candidate into an Iowa tie.

“Take away the super PACs, and Santorum would have probably had to drop out after Iowa,” says Bill Allison, editorial director of the Sunlight Foundation. “Gingrich might have had to drop out after South Carolina.”

The super PAC critics aren’t moved by the election results: The PACs are rotten and unfair. In the words of Democracy Now producers, the PAC money comes from a “secretive coterie” of donors. In the terrific coinage of Mother Jones editors, it’s “dark money,” a Lovecraftian monster that moves from state to state, dissolving the foundations of the republic.

It is too secretive. Most campaign money is. But here’s the twist: There’s more information out there about super PAC donors than there is about virtually any other kind of campaign fundraising. Maybe it’s the novelty, maybe it’s the size of the checks, but the rise of the super PAC has come with constant, clickable scrutiny from the Fourth Estate.

The best example of this: Winning Our Future and Sheldon Adelson. When the New York Times’ Nick Confessore and other reporters started chasing rumors that Adelson’s network backed Gingrich, the casino magnate (net worth $22 billion or so) came under close scrutiny. Every major newspaper profiled him. At press events, Gingrich was asked about him. A quick Lexis-Nexis search tells us that Adelson has been mentioned on 189 news broadcasts since the start of 2012, almost all of them in relation to the Gingrich money.

What about Rick Santorum’s savior, Foster Friess? The cowboy-hatted billionaire has given louder and prouder speeches about his campaign money than any tycoon since George Soros. He’s given interviews to the New Republic and the Washington Post. He introduced Santorum at last week’s Conservative Political Action Conference. Friess has acted like a venture capitalist, putting seed money in a product and then shouting from the mountains about how more people should buy in.

The big fear about campaign money is that it corrupts the candidates who have to beg for it. “It's simply wrong for our democracy,” says Fred Wertheimer, president of the campaign watchdog group Democracy21, “that an individual or his spouse can give $10 million to a particular candidate and thereby potentially buy corrupting influence at the expense of the electorate.”

But that worry applies better to the shadowy bundler than it does to the megabucks super PAC donor. Corruption can’t grow in the sunlight. The people giving big to super PACs are famous. I didn’t fully understand how famous until I tagged along with Gingrich at a speech to Aloma Baptist Church in Florida, when a parishioner asked him to explain why he was taking dirty money from the gambling industry. Gingrich explained that he and Adelson had a simpatico, guns-a-blazin’ view on Israel. Is it corruption if the candidate tells you what he’ll do for the donor?

If only the rest of the campaign finance system worked that way. Allison and Wertheimer, who worked very hard to cure my Pollyannish take on the cuper PAC, point out that the smaller donations, and the ones newly, legally laundered through 501©(3) groups, are handy hideouts for corruption. “Take Solyndra,” says Allison. “There's not a single story that mentioned how an Obama bundler invested in this solar company that got a huge government loan guarantee. That only happened when the thing went bankrupt.”

This is fixable. Maybe. House Democrats have introduced a new version of the DISCLOSE Act, the reform bill that would require total transparency on PAC funding. It’s probably doomed—the Chamber of Commerce doesn’t like items like a requirement for CEOs to appear in the commercials—but it’s the kind of reform Republicans frequently claim to want—total donation freedom, total transparency. Our super PAC education, so far, has consisted of fat checks matched with information about the check-cutters. We know more about those guys than we know about the bundlers, who’ve been passing money under the table for years. So which of those systems is worse for our democracy?
 
"Obama now loves Super PACs: I look forward to Stephen Colbert, Jon Stewart, and the rest of the MSM who skewered GOP super PACs reporting on Obama’s flip-flop on this issue."

Obama super PAC decision: President blesses fundraising for Priorities USA Action

By GLENN THRUSH | 2/6/12 11:04 PM EST Updated: 2/7/12 12:53 PM EST

President Barack Obama — in an act of hypocrisy or necessity, depending on the beholder — has reversed course and is now blessing the efforts of a sputtering super PAC, Priorities USA Action, organized to fight GOP dark-money attacks.

On Monday morning, Obama reviled the “negative” tone of the super PACs, a dominant fundraising source in the wake of the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision. But by the evening, word leaked to POLITICO that Obama had offered his support for Priorities USA Action, which thus far has raised a fraction of what GOP-backed groups have raked in.

Obama’s top campaign staff and even some Cabinet members will appear at super PAC events. The president himself will not address super PAC donors, although there’s nothing to legally prohibit the president, first lady Michelle Obama and Vice President Joe Biden from expressing their support for the group — as GOP presidential front-runner Mitt Romney has done for the super PAC that backs him.

“We decided to do this because we can’t afford for the work you’re doing in your communities, and the grass-roots donations you give to support it, to be destroyed by hundreds of millions of dollars in negative ads,” campaign manager Jim Messina told supporters in an email Monday night.

The timing of the announcement seemed rushed, several Democrats told POLITICO. It was made in a 10 p.m. call to Obama’s top bundlers, known as the National Finance Committee. Several party fundraisers raised the possibility that the campaign wanted to offset bad publicity generated by a Monday New York Times story, which reported that the campaign had returned $200,000 to the family of a wealthy Mexican fugitive seeking a pardon for drug and other criminal convictions.
“Yet again, Barack Obama has proven he will literally do anything to win an election, including changing positions on the type of campaign spending he called nothing short of a ‘threat to our democracy,’” said Joe Pounder, the Republican National Committee’s research director. “In less than 24 hours, Obama has gone from decrying super PACs in the morning to opening up the door to their money during a conference call with his big money donors in the middle of the night.”
 
“We decided to do this because we can’t afford for the work you’re doing in your communities, and the grass-roots donations you give to support it, to be destroyed by hundreds of millions of dollars in negative ads,” campaign manager Jim Messina told supporters in an email Monday night.
Where one or two people have more influence/representation then entire communities of people.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
How beholden would Gingrich be to Adelson if he won? I know with contributions comes access, to say the least, but the power Adelson could be buying is at the extreme end of the spectrumm with what we should be comfortable with.

 
How beholden would Gingrich be to Adelson if he won? I know with contributions comes access, to say the least, but the power Adelson could be buying is at the extreme end of the spectrumm with what we should be comfortable with.
What power? See, this is the sort of wild conjecture I'm talking about. All you have to do is study to political landscape to realize that Adelson could spend a billion dollars, and he couldn't win the election for Newt Gingrich. The public doesn't like Newt, so he's not going to get the nomination no matter how much money is spent. So what exactly is Adelson buying?
 
Is it more likely that people that are giving money in the spotlight are looking for influence, or are they using their money to support candidates that already agree with them?

Seems like the latter is a whole lot less risky.

 
I personally hate the fact that big newspaper corporations like the Washington Post publish all sorts of claptrap on their Op-Ed pages -- why should these massive corporations gets to have so much influence on our democratic process? Clearly, the only solution is to restrict the Washington Post to $1000 per year on total spending. There's no other way to get money out of the system.

 
I personally hate the fact that big newspaper corporations like the Washington Post publish all sorts of claptrap on their Op-Ed pages -- why should these massive corporations gets to have so much influence on our democratic process? Clearly, the only solution is to restrict the Washington Post to $1000 per year on total spending. There's no other way to get money out of the system.
The invasive difference, however, is like that of a splinter in your foot being compared to having a baseball bat shoved up your ###. Well that and some modicum of responsibility and accountability.
 
I personally hate the fact that big newspaper corporations like the Washington Post publish all sorts of claptrap on their Op-Ed pages -- why should these massive corporations gets to have so much influence on our democratic process? Clearly, the only solution is to restrict the Washington Post to $1000 per year on total spending. There's no other way to get money out of the system.
The invasive difference, however, is like that of a splinter in your foot being compared to having a baseball bat shoved up your ###. Well that and some modicum of responsibility and accountability.
That's weird. I see Newt Gingrich as being a little splinter who adds some comic relief to an otherwise-dreadful primary season. By way of contrast, big corporations like the NYT and Washington Post will still be there after election day. I don't get the responsibility/accountability thing. EJ Dionne never needs to worry about answering to voters for his many crimes against rational thought. By any reasonable standard, Newt Gingrich and other people running for office are orders of magnitude more "accountable" than any columnist.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Did China try to buy influence in the 1996 elections? Many questions have been raised, but no evidence of a direct link has been discovered.
But for some reason, it's completely okay to throw around wild accusations about super-PACs. Go figure.
 
Did China try to buy influence in the 1996 elections? Many questions have been raised, but no evidence of a direct link has been discovered.
so said the White House, but the facts say otherwise
And in a July 20, 1997 Post story, John F. Harris wrote that President Clinton and his senior foreign policy advisers disagree with senators of both parties who have concluded China had a plan to influence U.S. elections illegally
 
Did China try to buy influence in the 1996 elections? Many questions have been raised, but no evidence of a direct link has been discovered.
But for some reason, it's completely okay to throw around wild accusations about super-PACs. Go figure.
:lmao: Thanks for putting words in my mouth again, Ivan.
 
Did China try to buy influence in the 1996 elections? Many questions have been raised, but no evidence of a direct link has been discovered.
so said the White House, but the facts say otherwise
And in a July 20, 1997 Post story, John F. Harris wrote that President Clinton and his senior foreign policy advisers disagree with senators of both parties who have concluded China had a plan to influence U.S. elections illegally
The facts are that people accused China of trying to influence the election, which was never proven? Yeah, I see how that is the same thing is claiming China bought the election. Good work.
 
Liberals are confusing correlation with causation. It used to be that the reporting requirements of who was giving money had a chilling effect on large donations, that people who had money didn't want to risk their commercial endeavors by being associated with partisanship and alienate half of their customers. But that started changing a decade ago. Political donations have exploded in the past 20 years. Bush v. Kerry was twice as expensive as Bush v. Gore. Obama v. McCain again saw a similar increase in political money spent. Now people are looking at Citizens United and the projections of an even more expensive election and thinking the first is causing the second. It isn't. People and corporations are just much more comfortable making such political donations and having other people know about it. Two years ago I received emails from liberal friends urging a boycott of Target due to their political donations to Tea Party candidates, but nothing ever came of it. If everyone's doing it, the pushback is negligible to non-existent.

 
I personally hate the fact that big newspaper corporations like the Washington Post publish all sorts of claptrap on their Op-Ed pages -- why should these massive corporations gets to have so much influence on our democratic process? Clearly, the only solution is to restrict the Washington Post to $1000 per year on total spending. There's no other way to get money out of the system.
The invasive difference, however, is like that of a splinter in your foot being compared to having a baseball bat shoved up your ###. Well that and some modicum of responsibility and accountability.
Just what do you think all that money going to Super Pacs is buying?A huge chunk of it goes towards media access, something the NYT and Washington Post are inherently part of and get for free. The media shapes how people view candidates. With the internet, there are a lot more voices today and the media looks different than it did 20 years ago, but most people still get a large percentage of their news from Big Media. I'd argue that the media has MUCH more influence than corporations simply because corporations need the media even to create influence with the electorate.
 
'Matthias said:
How beholden would Gingrich be to Adelson if he won? I know with contributions comes access, to say the least, but the power Adelson could be buying is at the extreme end of the spectrumm with what we should be comfortable with.
What power? See, this is the sort of wild conjecture I'm talking about. All you have to do is study to political landscape to realize that Adelson could spend a billion dollars, and he couldn't win the election for Newt Gingrich. The public doesn't like Newt, so he's not going to get the nomination no matter how much money is spent. So what exactly is Adelson buying?
It's working for Romney
Somebody has to win the Republican primary. The fact that Romney is struggling so hard to close this out seems to argue against Dionne's hypothesis.
 
I personally hate the fact that big newspaper corporations like the Washington Post publish all sorts of claptrap on their Op-Ed pages -- why should these massive corporations gets to have so much influence on our democratic process? Clearly, the only solution is to restrict the Washington Post to $1000 per year on total spending. There's no other way to get money out of the system.
The invasive difference, however, is like that of a splinter in your foot being compared to having a baseball bat shoved up your ###. Well that and some modicum of responsibility and accountability.
Just what do you think all that money going to Super Pacs is buying?A huge chunk of it goes towards media access, something the NYT and Washington Post are inherently part of and get for free. The media shapes how people view candidates. With the internet, there are a lot more voices today and the media looks different than it did 20 years ago, but most people still get a large percentage of their news from Big Media. I'd argue that the media has MUCH more influence than corporations simply because corporations need the media even to create influence with the electorate.
If what you say is true, we wouldn't have the the secrecy of donations to cpacs. But we do.
 
But you weren't suppressing the voice of the american people before this. All you were doing was limiting how much a person can contribute. And as you said earlier, the people, or businesses making the contribution aren't known until after the election.
Your first two sentences directly contradict each other.
 
'Matthias said:
Somebody has to win the Republican primary. The fact that Romney is struggling so hard to close this out seems to argue against Dionne's hypothesis.
Not sure how that follows.
Romney has a gigantic amount of money. If it was possible to simply buy an election, he would have the nomination locked up by now. Instead, he's in serious danger of losing to Rick freaking Santorum.
 
I personally hate the fact that big newspaper corporations like the Washington Post publish all sorts of claptrap on their Op-Ed pages -- why should these massive corporations gets to have so much influence on our democratic process? Clearly, the only solution is to restrict the Washington Post to $1000 per year on total spending. There's no other way to get money out of the system.
The invasive difference, however, is like that of a splinter in your foot being compared to having a baseball bat shoved up your ###. Well that and some modicum of responsibility and accountability.
Just what do you think all that money going to Super Pacs is buying?A huge chunk of it goes towards media access, something the NYT and Washington Post are inherently part of and get for free. The media shapes how people view candidates. With the internet, there are a lot more voices today and the media looks different than it did 20 years ago, but most people still get a large percentage of their news from Big Media. I'd argue that the media has MUCH more influence than corporations simply because corporations need the media even to create influence with the electorate.
If what you say is true, we wouldn't have the the secrecy of donations to cpacs. But we do.
It's like you don't even bother to read the rest of the thread before repeating something that is wrong.
 
'Matthias said:
Somebody has to win the Republican primary. The fact that Romney is struggling so hard to close this out seems to argue against Dionne's hypothesis.
Not sure how that follows.
I think he's trying to say that Romney has the most money and can't win this thing, so money <> electoral success. But of course if it weren't for the SuperPACs this thing would have been over long ago because they are singly keeping Santorum and Gingrich in the race. I personally like it when an eccentric billionaire backs an otherwise "minor" candidate in the race. '92 remains my favorite presidential election, and yes, I voted for Perot.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top