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Death of football? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
No it won't, but we could see.
Nobody over 300 pounds
No kickoffs at all
No punts at all (just take the ball 45 yards away or half the distance.
Twek a few things.
And while ruining the game we will still have football.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
As a neuropsychologist, I can attest from clinical experience that every single 40+ year old patient I see complains of memory loss. Which fighters are slurring their words?
cobalt_27
Footballguy
This is curious. What is your understanding of the scientific evidence that currently exists? And, based on this, have you identified any limitations on what we know...and how we know it?
-OZ-
Footballguy
That doesn't sound like football.
Ironically, futbol is bad too, but for youth sports remains really popular.
I'm talking about all the CTE data that's out there. I don't know any more than I hear in the media, but my point is that's enough for them.
Maybe. in the future, it will be all robots except for the coaching staff who programs the plays. We will still be able to play fantasy football. Then some 21st century lamer will start complaining that the robots are getting hurt.
The fact that they all are not invalidates the whole argument. Marvin Hagler is fine and he's taken a ton of huge shots to the head. It's all genetics. That's why Jack Lambert & Mean Jo Greene are fine while Mike Webster & Junior Seau are dead. It's no different that why some people live to 100 and others are dead at 70.
What they should be doing is trying to figure out a test that will determine if you are susceptible to CTE.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Seems so. Unfortunately, there isn’t much CTE data out there, but the perception has been created that there is.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Perhaps. But, there are a lot of other things that neuroscientists need to do.
1. Establish an agreed upon pathology that differentiates CTE. At present there are preliminary criteria, all of which have undergone major revisions in just the past 10 years.
2. Randomize studies to include estimates of pathology in populations *other than* football players. For example, a recent 2015 study found CTE present in 13% of individuals with no reported history of head injury. Would be helpful to know if drug abuse, alcohol abuse, psychiatric disorders, vascular disease, etc confer a risk for the pathology. Does age itself confer a risk? We can start addressing the genetics question you posed.
3. Randomize studies to include more accurate estimates of prevalence in football players. What we have now are primarily families donating brains to BU for study. There is an inherent ascertainment bias in this approach. For a variety of reasons, families who are concerned about their loved one’s behaviors are more likely to seek out brain donation than families who had no such concerns. It would be expected that concerning behaviors stem from brain dysfunction, but we can’t reverse engineer a narrative that football caused this behavior with this approach.
4. Most who have shown evidence of CTE also show *other* brain pathology (e.g., Alzheimer’s disease, Lewy bodies) which are quite common in general population. Are these conditions operating independently? Are they independent and exacerbating each other? Does Alzheimer’s pathology emerge first and give rise to pathology resembling CTE or...does repetitive brain trauma cause CTE-like pathology, which then starts a cascade that promotes Alzheimer’s disease (or Lewy bodies, etc)?
5. Does the pathology itself cause clinical symptoms and, if so, at what point? For example, it is well established that about a third of all individuals with known Alzheimer’s pathology on autopsy had no memory or behavioral symptoms prior to death. Virtually every cognitively healthy patient I see over 50 years old who has imaging done has shown evidence of white matter abnormalities. It’s known pathology to tiny blood vessels in the brain, but rarely correlates to clinical symptoms. Brain pathology is the norm, not the exception. But, in CTE we are being told that the behavior problems are a result of brain pathology *caused by* repetitive head trauma, when those conclusions are premature.
6. So far, concussions do *not* correlate with CTE, either in incidence or severity. People have to get this myth out of their heads, and even the Boston University folks have been trying to correct the narrative. The theory is repetitive subconcussive trauma causes CTE. From a public policy perspective, if that theory eventually holds up to scrutiny, does childhood/adolescent exposure confer increased risk or is it more related to adult participation? Are certain positions, such as linemen or linebackers at greater risk than, say, wide receivers, quarterbacks, cornerbacks?
It’s complex but in my view as a neuropsychologist, these are the main questions that remain outstanding and unanswered.
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If those involved in the game aren't concerned with CTE and don't seem to care about injury why should anyone else?
I never thought about the dangers of the game,simply didn't care and played in four HS Alumni games totally not in football shape. Had to sign a release.
If you box you will get hit.
I never thought about the dangers of the game,simply didn't care and played in four HS Alumni games totally not in football shape. Had to sign a release.
If you box you will get hit.
I just watched a kid about 19/20 climb a Palm tree way up there, take a power tool and trim the top, if he falls he is dead. I doubt he makes all that much $$$$$ doing that, he just doesn't care. Not worried at all.
And there it is, people simply don't live that way. They want to live not.....but I could get hurt.........so what.
So you could get hurt playing football, so what, big damn deal.
You can get killed on the road, it's happening right now.
And there it is, people simply don't live that way. They want to live not.....but I could get hurt.........so what.
So you could get hurt playing football, so what, big damn deal.
You can get killed on the road, it's happening right now.
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cobalt_27
Footballguy
To be fair, it’s probably important to understand the risks. If this is all nonsense, then creating public policy around a phony association is harmful. On the other hand, if the risks are established and quantifiable, then public policy—or at least informed consent—is better informed. I don’t think we should ignore it, I just want the reporting to align with the science. At this stage, media are way out over their skis.ZenoRazon said:
Big guys trying to knock each down, yep....could get hurt.
What it is is that most people really don't care. Smoking can/will kill you.....how many smoke? You could be killed in a boxing ring, how many boxers have we seen? NASCAR,, how dangerous is that?
Who would be a prison guard?
I couldn't care less about the dangers in football, I played my son played and when he has a son he will play.
I don't want to live a life worried about injury, so I don't and neither do most people.
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Tanner9919
Footballguy
Rule changes allowing these pathetic endzone celebrations involving 11 players has gone too far..you make a tackle on 4th and one? see you in the endzone. you blocked a pass? see you in the endzone..you made a first? yay, good for you! see you in the endzone!
or if your michael thomas, you make a catch for 5 yards, you stand and flex your biceps..oh did you sneeze michael? flex your biceps!!!
it's just so annoying to watch now..
or if your michael thomas, you make a catch for 5 yards, you stand and flex your biceps..oh did you sneeze michael? flex your biceps!!!
it's just so annoying to watch now..
Kwai Chang Caine
Footballguy
Totally agree, as usual ya give an inch they take a mile.
Time to, ok to spike, fist pump, some sign of joy, but make it as quick as ya can. no props and no gang celebrations, just use common sense.
Somebody will visit all the teams with the do's and don't's. This will work, that won't.
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cobalt_27
Footballguy
Just published today in Nature by Willie Stewart, one of the world’s most renowned neuropathologists...
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41582-018-0114-8
“We also address areas where the Publix perception of CTE and scientific literature do not align...the most of the trenchant views that are expressed about the vulnerability, as well as the immunity, of the brain in [sport] are still based more on supposition than on fact”
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41582-018-0114-8
“We also address areas where the Publix perception of CTE and scientific literature do not align...the most of the trenchant views that are expressed about the vulnerability, as well as the immunity, of the brain in [sport] are still based more on supposition than on fact”
Imagine....
Early history
The first bare-knuckle champion of England was James Figg, who claimed the title in 1719 and held it until his retirement in 1730. Before Jack Broughton, the first idea of current boxing originated from James Figg, who is viewed as the organizer of cutting edge boxing. In 1719, he set up a 'pugilistic foundation' and charged himself as 'a professional in the Noble Science of Defense' to instruct boxers on the utilization of clench hands, sword, and quarterstaff. Noted champions were Jack Broughton, Elizabeth Wilkinson, Daniel Mendoza, Jem Belcher, Hen Pearce, John Gully, Tom Cribb, Tom Spring, Jem Ward, James Burke, William "Bendigo" Thompson, Ben Caunt, William Perry, Tom Sayers and Jem Mace.[2]
The record for the longest bare-knuckle fight is listed as 6 hours and 15 minutes for a match between James Kelly and Jonathan Smith, fought near Fiery Creek, Victoria, Australia, on December 3, 1855, when Smith gave in after 17 rounds.[3]
The bare-knuckle fighter Jem Mace is listed as having the longest professional career of any fighter in history.[4] He fought for more than 35 years into his 60s,[5] and recorded his last exhibition bout in 1909 at the age of 79.
~~~~~~~~~~~
My dad would mow both lawns using an old push mower, come in grab a bottle of whiskey and take a snort right out of that bottle, sit down and light up a smoke. Died at 89.
Early history
The first bare-knuckle champion of England was James Figg, who claimed the title in 1719 and held it until his retirement in 1730. Before Jack Broughton, the first idea of current boxing originated from James Figg, who is viewed as the organizer of cutting edge boxing. In 1719, he set up a 'pugilistic foundation' and charged himself as 'a professional in the Noble Science of Defense' to instruct boxers on the utilization of clench hands, sword, and quarterstaff. Noted champions were Jack Broughton, Elizabeth Wilkinson, Daniel Mendoza, Jem Belcher, Hen Pearce, John Gully, Tom Cribb, Tom Spring, Jem Ward, James Burke, William "Bendigo" Thompson, Ben Caunt, William Perry, Tom Sayers and Jem Mace.[2]
The record for the longest bare-knuckle fight is listed as 6 hours and 15 minutes for a match between James Kelly and Jonathan Smith, fought near Fiery Creek, Victoria, Australia, on December 3, 1855, when Smith gave in after 17 rounds.[3]
The bare-knuckle fighter Jem Mace is listed as having the longest professional career of any fighter in history.[4] He fought for more than 35 years into his 60s,[5] and recorded his last exhibition bout in 1909 at the age of 79.
~~~~~~~~~~~
My dad would mow both lawns using an old push mower, come in grab a bottle of whiskey and take a snort right out of that bottle, sit down and light up a smoke. Died at 89.
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Mine is that virtually every former NFL player they've looked at has had CTE. Like 112/113 or something like that.
So, sure. It's preliminary. We need to do the things you suggest (especially establishing a baseline in the general population).
Are you suggesting the preliminary evidence isn't damning and shouldn't be the cause for changes?
cobalt_27
Footballguy
I am suggesting that if you examined the brains of 113 plumbers whose families were concerned about changes in cognition and emotional functioning before they died, it's likely we'd find brain pathology in 112 of those plumbers.
I do think this case series by McKee is provocative and absolutely warrants further investigation. But, case series design is an awful, terrible, no good, very bad way at establishing causality. It's a call to do more investigative work described above, but we really have to tap the breaks a bit on drawing conclusions from the autopsy data we have becauae they fail to address the questions that require answers before drawing conclusions about their significance.
I say this not as a flat earth guy or a skeptic of the harms of smoking or the serious dangers of global warming. We have an abundance of evidence to warrant conclusions and public policy measures on those issues because they all have survived the scrutiny of the scientific process. The CTE issue is another matter altogether, as it has not undergone thorough investigation at this point. There very well may be an association. But, there very well might not be, too. And, to draw any conclusions at this point is premature.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
No one cares about boxing anymore, especially the heavyweights and middle weights. It was the heavyweights in the 70s and before and the middle weights of the 80s. After that no one cares about boxing (other than ICF, or other bs kick boxing) in the US.
As for football, after I'm dead and gone it will be the NFFL (National Flag Football League).
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
I remember when watching the Pro Bowl meant something. I loved watching it back in the day. I also enjoyed watching the Super Bowl winners playing the college all-stars (bet most forgot about that), but it was usually one-sided. What they should have done was have the worst NFL team play the college all-stars. Perhaps there would have been better games.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
Always funny when ya talk to kids with....
Could Alabama beat a weak pro team?
It;s....are you on drugs, that's crazy, no way, no how.
Then you.....hell college kids have actually beat the NFL Champs before.
Then it's......don't lie.
Ha~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Too much $$$$$$ involved anymore to do those kinds of things.
And when somebody gets seriously hurt in a pro bowl game, there that goes.
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Csonka4life
Footballguy
Don Frey badly slurs his words, Gary Goodridge has to write down instructions as he leaves his house to get to the store and come back home. The list of boxers that slur is too many to start a list, we could begin with two recently deceased legends in Frazier and Ali.
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Csonka4life
Footballguy
I truly don't think that high school football is that dangerous, your main worry would be spinal chord injuries and chronic pain from a bad knee injury or various broken bones.
What leads to the danger of brain damage is when a college prospect hits you. They tackle and block and at full level harder than a normal person. Their brains aren't stronger but the force that they can exert is much higher than a normal person.
I remember getting run over by a D III back up lineman on a practice sweep play and he could have killed me if hit me right. When he took of his shirt while changing he was husky rather than corpulent looking like the other linemen. He also didn't have the size to play DI or 1AA or DII as I think he tipped the scales at 250 in college. What would have happened to me if an ESPN top 300 college prospect had hit me on a similar sweep play?
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cobalt_27
Footballguy
Slurring words and memory problems are not unique symptoms related to contact sports participants. They are, in fact, common sequelae of various forms of dementia in individuals with no prior history of head trauma.
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Csonka4life
Footballguy
These men are getting this at 45 or so, I doubt too many regular people are getting this dementia at that age. I know for something to be a scientific fact you need thousands of cases but it's more than obvious if you subject your brain to repeated trauma your odds of getting brain damage will be higher.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
These men? Which men?
Getting this? Getting what?
“Regular people” get a range of neurodegenerative disorders at age 45 (e.g., ALS, Huntington’s, Parkinson’s, FTD, etc)
You are correct that subjecting your brain to trauma increases risk for brain damage. But, that’s a very non-specific claim that doesn’t exactly address what is being hyped in the media right now. What this discussion pertains to is whether or not repetitive subconcussive trauma causes a specific tauopathy currently described as CTE and, if so, is CTE neurodegenerative (versus transient) and if it correlates to clinical sympotoms.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
[icon]
Insoxicated
It’s posts like this that make me still check in here, albeit less than I used to.
Thank you for sharing an actual informed opinion in the face of a pile of armchair scientists
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
cobalt_27
Footballguy
FWIW, it's the lawyers who are chasing ambulances all the way to the bank. The serious medical researchers, the doctors, are the ones telling folks, including the media, to tap the ####### brakes.
thehoch
Footballguy
NFL is in big trouble. Less kids today are playing football because parents don't want their kids to have major brain injuries.
The moment college programs get sued and lose in court, insurance companies will start to pull coverage, then college programs will shut down their football programs. Not all but many.
NFL has been pricing families out of the experience of going to a game for years. They are on many pay channels....they have alienated their fans.
Not today, not tomorrow, but over next 10-15 years.....I am willing to bet the NFL will have to fold some franchises. That's just my two cents.
The moment college programs get sued and lose in court, insurance companies will start to pull coverage, then college programs will shut down their football programs. Not all but many.
NFL has been pricing families out of the experience of going to a game for years. They are on many pay channels....they have alienated their fans.
Not today, not tomorrow, but over next 10-15 years.....I am willing to bet the NFL will have to fold some franchises. That's just my two cents.
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't think any of the big four have contracted in the past 10-15, have they? And if they did, it was for a brief period of time. I remember the NHL was swirling with rumors, but they expanded, IIRC, just like every other big franchise.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
You’re whole schtick is ridiculous here. The nfl didn’t give billions of dollars in a settlement because cite is a made up fantasy.
Wildcat
Footballguy
Not going to happen. I will take that bet. From my experience, based on being a parent and interacting with other parents, there has been no hesitation with allowing kids to play football. I personally will not allow my children to play football until high school. My reasons are injuries and burnout, but I have had these reasons even before the CTE news. I’m from Nebraska BTW and we are not a huge high school football state, and again, I have seen no hesitation or apprehension from parents.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
I'm also originally from Nebraska and spent the first ~20 years of my life there. Played high school football for a pretty successful class B school. Let's just say that, from my personal experience, the parents of kids on Nebraska high school football teams aren't (on the whole) ones to listen to anything the "experts" have to say. My HS coaches (in the mid 2000's, mind you) would routinely deny us any water other than a handful of ice cubes during conditioning days in 95+ degree weather. Never heard a peep from anyone about it being something to be concerned about.
thehoch
Footballguy
I disagree. Even in my own neighborhood I've talked to parents whose kids play football and they say they can barely get enough kids together now to form a team, let alone a league, and teams now have to travel far to find teams to play. To think about all the news of CTE over last many years coming out and it's effects on people's brains isn't having an effect on parents allowing their kids to play football now would be at best disingenuous. It is.
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trader jake
Footballguy
For those of you interested in furthering your scientific knowledge regarding CTE I'd encourage you to listen to the latest episode of "Science Vs" titled Football: Should We Cancel It?
Info below is from the podcast feed:
America’s favorite pastime seems to be plagued by tragedy. Former NFL players have come forward to say they’re suffering from a serious brain disease. Others have ended their lives. So we wanted to know: how risky is playing football? Cornerback Isiah Swann, neuroscientist Dr. Kevin Bieniek, neurosurgeon Prof. Bob Cantu, and neurologist Dr. Ira Casson weigh in.
Check out the full transcript here: http://bit.ly/2mWkuyR
Note: In this episode we discuss depression and suicide. Please take care when listening to the show. National Mental Health Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357).
Selected references:
The preliminary criteria for diagnosing CTE agreed upon in 2016: http://bit.ly/2m4YzW9
Kevin’s brain bank study: http://bit.ly/2mYNm9I
The 99% study: http://bit.ly/2lVRyah
The Lancet: Neurology letter: http://bit.ly/2lrugbQ and a response: http://bit.ly/2lnmU9c
A survey of former NFL players to see how they’re doing: http://bit.ly/2n62JNr
Info below is from the podcast feed:
America’s favorite pastime seems to be plagued by tragedy. Former NFL players have come forward to say they’re suffering from a serious brain disease. Others have ended their lives. So we wanted to know: how risky is playing football? Cornerback Isiah Swann, neuroscientist Dr. Kevin Bieniek, neurosurgeon Prof. Bob Cantu, and neurologist Dr. Ira Casson weigh in.
Check out the full transcript here: http://bit.ly/2mWkuyR
Note: In this episode we discuss depression and suicide. Please take care when listening to the show. National Mental Health Helpline: 1-800-662-HELP (4357).
Selected references:
The preliminary criteria for diagnosing CTE agreed upon in 2016: http://bit.ly/2m4YzW9
Kevin’s brain bank study: http://bit.ly/2mYNm9I
The 99% study: http://bit.ly/2lVRyah
The Lancet: Neurology letter: http://bit.ly/2lrugbQ and a response: http://bit.ly/2lnmU9c
A survey of former NFL players to see how they’re doing: http://bit.ly/2n62JNr
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Litigation and public relations =/= science. I work in this field and know what I don’t know. What we don’t know. Abnormal tau aggregations are not made up fantasies, they are very real. Most of the time, like many abnormalities in the brain, there are many potential causative factors, most of which are unknown. I can’t compete with sound bytes and easy answers. But, I do know this much: The etiology of and sequelae from CTE are poorly understood and likely a lot more nuanced than you are making it out to be.voiceofunreason said:
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