Neofight
Footballguy
just above the belt and on the hands is a terrible place to hit a receiver. Wait until the poor chap sees the highlights of the fumble and that lucky bounce. Or the mugging.
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QB Russell Wilson, PIT (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter ImTheScientist
- Start date
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I don't think there was much revision in there. I disagree that he almost missed Robinson, who did have to reach for the ball, but he didn't have to reach far and it didn't really make him even break stride. Wilson just lobbed it over some pass rushers while going backwards. So that observation is a little more dire than I think when I see the play. The rest of his observations were pretty spot on, imo. The would-be interception was an awful decision. Lucky bounces are just that. Sometimes they go for you, sometimes against. Usually it evens out and pretty much everyone's good or bad game is influenced by them. It would have been a lucky situation fr WAS that Lynch's hip knocked the ball free if they'd recored it, and they got pretty lucky when they got a very rae Lynch fumble. Evens out. Doesn't really take anything away. Wilson stayed calm, got a little lucky on a few plays, turned a few bad plays positive, stayed calm, never quit or panicked. A very good performance, but not great. However, that's why there's a team out there, not just 2 QBs.
It was a good performance, just not one that "solved" the question of ROY.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
No playoff game is going to "solve" that and you certainly can't compare the two from this game. The votes are in. Four to one odds that it's RG3, but I'll trade all awards every week for another game and I'm sure Wilson will too!
Neofight
Footballguy
Tragedy.
Neofight
Footballguy
go back and watch Wilson after the fumble. There was more than luck involved. I was also questioning the use of the term "mug". By NFL CB play, particularly in that game, Baldwin was playing some very good D. There were comments in our group that Sherman couldn't have played the ball better. Lucky for Russell, yes, mugging, no.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
With fumbles there always is. But also, there is also always luck. Players need to put themselves in the position to best benefit from how an oblong, pointy ball is going to bounce.
I agree. My recent involvement in this thread started when someone suggested that Wilson's performance on Sunday answered the question of who would get ROY.I agree it will probably be RGIII or Luck ("the popularity contest" factor), but that both players (and their fans) would trade the award for another playoff game.
Neofight
Footballguy
In reality Wilson hit Wilson (Josh) with a forearm across the 2 and 6 of his jersey. Of course it was the back of his jersey so the block could have easily been flagged. The fact that it wasn't called doesn't alter the reality that Russell Wilson hit the defender with an inside track on Lynch and freed him to go another 6 or 7 yard before being hit by a different defender (Madieu Williams, I believe).
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Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
I think what he is referring to is that it wasn't an unlucky bounce at all. After Wilson fumbled the ball he dove in and actually knocked the ball away from the Washington defender. What should have been an easy turnover turned in to a 20 yard pickup because of Wilson's brilliance (sarcasm). It actually did show some moxy on his part to dive in like that against a 300lb lineman who was also diving for the ball and appeared to have a way better chance of making the recovery.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
That's why i also wrote that players need to put themselves in the position to best benefit from how an oblong pointy ball is going to bounce. Fumble recoveries are usually part luck and part determination.
Didn't get to watch the game. How much of Wilson's rushing came from designed runs? It seemed like they were giving him more rushing plays in the 2nd half of the season. Did that continue vs. the Skins?For me, his rushing yds are the big question for next year in redraft leagues. If he's going to run a lot, he'll be fantastic value. If not, he's probably more of an upside QB2.
Neofight
Footballguy
It's true that often you create your own luck. It's also true that Wilson's effort and determination are always top notch. But I think on that play in particular what we saw was Wilson thinking on his feet to make a split second decision that affected the outcome of the game. Call it moxy, determination, creating your own luck, etc... But, based on the verifiably false statements that Bayhawks made about the other plays he brought up, I just don't think that's what he meant.
bonesman
Footballguy
The bulk came on broken plays... there were a few designed, read option runs that he picked up yards on, but the majority came from when the pocket broke down and he took off.
biju
Footballguy
I think there were some designed read-options, but one of his bigger runs came when the pocket began to break down and he saw a lot of green in front of him. (This is also the play in question where Sidney Rice was fairly open for a long strike.)I feel like they'll continue to run the read-option until it isn't successful anymore and then he'll move on to a more traditional QB role. Personally I wouldn't bank on that going forward, although I think Wilson will grow as a pocket passer--they have yet to really have him audible and I think this is something that he will really shine with in the future.
Diving past a guy and and brushing the back of his jersey as you fly by him doesn't constitute a block.
Robinson is standing on the 4 yard line; he catches the ball on the 5. His hands are below his waist when he catches the ball. That is low and behind him. There was no need to softly lob the ball; there was no defender in the line of the pass. It was not a good pass.
Right, because no other football player in the world would try to dive on a football after he dropped it.
You're seriously trying to call basic instinct some kind of special level of effort and determination, moxy, or some other nonsense? Every single football player in the world, from pop warner to the NFL will try to dive on a football that he just dropped on the ground. As for those "verifiably false statements" you are referring to, please prove that anything I said is false. I'll wait.
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
RG3 didn't dive on the football. He just layed beside it.Right, because no other football player in the world would try to dive on a football after he dropped it.
Mr. Bojangles
Footballguy
My god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
For ####s and giggles link me to your thread tearing up Manning after Thomas had to leap and stretch to make a one handed acrobatic catch. TIA.
Neofight
Footballguy
Wasn't gonna go there. Anxiously awaiting Bay's response.RG3 didn't dive on the football. He just layed beside it.Right, because no other football player in the world would try to dive on a football after he dropped it.
Neofight
Footballguy
Low and away!ETA: ... and behind!ETAII: /Walter voiceMy god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
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My god man, do you know how to read? Wilson hate? Someone else posted that Wilson's game on Sunday "proved" he should be ROY. I posted that I think he'll be a good to great QB, & that at worst, he should be 2nd in ROY voting, but his game on Sunday wasn't a good one, and in no way "proved" he should be ROY. He had a poor completion %, almost had 2 costly turnovers, didn't really (need to) make any big plays, and was not accurate at all. That's not hate, that's merely pointing out facts. Whether Wilson wins ROY, the SB, SB MVP, or none of the above, he did not play a good game. Wilson fans got their panties in a bunch, saying stupid stuff like?"He should have had two more completions b/c of drops, so his completion % should have been higher," "he played outstanding," "his rushing yardage was huge," "his blocking was important," "he was very accurate," "his fumble was actually a great play, showing off his determination, hustle, moxie, etc;" stupid stuff like that.I'm not saying Wilson sucks, or that I hate him. I've posted several times that I like him very much, and think he has the potential to be a good to great NFL QB. But the fact is that he had an easy 5-yard pass to Robinson, and he make a very poor pass. Ask any receiver: if they had a choice (with the exception of passes over the middle where they are going to get killed if they have to go up), they want the ball above the belt. It is more natural to catch the ball with your palms down, as opposed to palms up (which is how your hands should be positioned when catching a ball below the belt). Furthermore, when running away from the QB, receivers would prefer the ball in front of them, rather than behind. Those are just basic football facts. Wilson's pass, which should have been easy, was neither of those things, and it made the catch harder for Robinson. Does that mean Wilson should be invalidated for ROY? Of course not, but his game on Sunday wasn't any kind of "statement" game where he laid claim to the ROY award.My god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
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Right, because a guy who suffered a serious knee injury on the play is the "norm," and an appropriate comparison.I mean this as no disrespect, but have you ever played organized football in your life? Or coached it? One of the basic drills of all levels of football is the fumble drill: throw the ball on the ground and have guys dive on it to cover it. It is repeated over and over again from Pop-Warner to JV to Varsity to College to NFL. When players see a fumble, their automatic instinct is to jump on the ball.Wasn't gonna go there. Anxiously awaiting Bay's response.RG3 didn't dive on the football. He just layed beside it.Right, because no other football player in the world would try to dive on a football after he dropped it.
When a runner gets knocked out and doesn't try to jump on the ball he fumbled, does that mean he's less determined, doesn't hustle as much, and doesn't have as much moxie as Wilson?
I'd be happy to. But first, for ####s and giggles, link me to the thread where some Denver homer argued that that pass was "proof" that Manning should win MVP.I'll wait.
CapnJB
Footballguy
Neofight
Footballguy
Goodness Low and Behind, aside from having poor vision and a tenacious desire to not admit when you are wrong, you are a fallacy in waiting. The point wasn't that he had the instinct to jump on the ball, the point was that he decided to punch it away from the defender who was clearly going to win the battle for the ball.Why are you rolling your eyes at me?Right, because a guy who suffered a serious knee injury on the play is the "norm," and an appropriate comparison.I mean this as no disrespect, but have you ever played organized football in your life? Or coached it? One of the basic drills of all levels of football is the fumble drill: throw the ball on the ground and have guys dive on it to cover it. It is repeated over and over again from Pop-Warner to JV to Varsity to College to NFL. When players see a fumble, their automatic instinct is to jump on the ball.Wasn't gonna go there. Anxiously awaiting Bay's response.RG3 didn't dive on the football. He just layed beside it.Right, because no other football player in the world would try to dive on a football after he dropped it.
When a runner gets knocked out and doesn't try to jump on the ball he fumbled, does that mean he's less determined, doesn't hustle as much, and doesn't have as much moxie as Wilson?
And yes, Division I.
Neofight
Footballguy
It's actually much more ridiculous when you look at the replay from the end zone angle. I'm going to let L&B find that on his own.
Mr. Bojangles
Footballguy
Wilson's pass, which should have been easy, was neither of those things, and it made the catch harder for Robinson.My god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
It was an easy TD.I like him but he couldn't find an open receiver if there was one sitting on his face ... and against one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL.Russell Wilson made a lot of plays. He didn't turn the ball over. He did outstanding for a rookie down 14 in a road playoff game to keep his composure and lead a 4th quarter comeback win.I like Wilson, and I think he's going to be a good to great pro QB. I also think that he should be (at worst) 2nd in the ROY voting, but will probably finish behind both Luck and RGIII.That being said, how does his game last night "prove" anything with regards to ROY?Wilson proved last night....he should be ROY.
He completed just 58% of his passes, fumbled once, should have had a pick in the end zone (Baldwin, I think prevented the INT with what should have been offensive PI), and wasn't accurate at all. The Seahawks outplayed the Redskins, and the Seahawks won. I don't think you can say Wilson carried them to that victory.
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Neofight
Footballguy
It does give new meaning to the term end zone.Butt seriously, no.I like him but he couldn't find an open receiver if there was one sitting on his face ... and against one of the worst pass defenses in the NFL.Russell Wilson made a lot of plays. He didn't turn the ball over. He did outstanding for a rookie down 14 in a road playoff game to keep his composure and lead a 4th quarter comeback win.I like Wilson, and I think he's going to be a good to great pro QB. I also think that he should be (at worst) 2nd in the ROY voting, but will probably finish behind both Luck and RGIII.That being said, how does his game last night "prove" anything with regards to ROY?Wilson proved last night....he should be ROY.
He didn't "decide" to punch the ball away; are you serious? He tried to dive on it, as did the Redskin defender. Neither of them was able to get control and the ball was picked up by Lynch. If he was trying to punch the ball away, it would have shot away from the two players immediately; there is a very obvious gap between the time Wilson and the 'skins defender dive on the ball and when it squirts away.Look, I get it, you like Wilson, and there's nothing wrong with that. He seems like a great kid, he is very talented, and he earned his spot by beating out a (medium-priced) FA pickup, rather then getting it handed to him by virtue of a high draft pick. He works hard to maximize his talent, and he has overcome the only real "obstacle" in his way (his height). He should be a very good-great QB for the Seahawks for the forseeable future. But that doesn't change the fact that his game on Sunday wasn't one of his best, and it definitely wasn't the type of game that "proves" he should be the ROY.He was innaccurate all game, his completion percentage shows that, and two of his biggest completetions were not great passes: the TD pass to Robinson could have been a better pass, and the long completion to Rice took a great effort by Rice to make the catch. Both passes could have been better, and I'm sure if any of us had the ability to talk to Wilson about those two plays, he'd say the same. I never said they were horrible passes, but that they could have been better. His accuracy was off all game; perhaps it was rookie nerves, perhaps he was just having an "off day," whatever it was, no one should point to this game as THE GAME showing why Wilson should be ROY.As for your Division I football experience, either you're making that up, or you're deliberately being dense with regards to your fumble argument. No one with the type of football experience required to play at that level would argue that Wilson's fumble was any kind of good play or great example of him being able to "think on his feet;" it was a reaction, a reaction born out of countless hours of football practice. Nothing more, nothing less. Should he be lauded for his effort? Sure, should he be deified for his "quick wits," and football IQ to "punch the ball" to Lynch? Get serious.
Yes, it was; I never said it wasn't. The catch could have been made easier by a more accurate pass. That is all I ever said.Wilson's pass, which should have been easy, was neither of those things, and it made the catch harder for Robinson.My god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
Mr. Bojangles
Footballguy
Whatever....most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.Yes, it was; I never said it wasn't. The catch could have been made easier by a more accurate pass. That is all I ever said.Wilson's pass, which should have been easy, was neither of those things, and it made the catch harder for Robinson.My god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
OK, you must not get out much. It's ridiculous to say that a pass that hits a receiver right between the numbers is easier to catch than a pass that he has to reach behind him for?Whatever....most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.Yes, it was; I never said it wasn't. The catch could have been made easier by a more accurate pass. That is all I ever said.Wilson's pass, which should have been easy, was neither of those things, and it made the catch harder for Robinson.My god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
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Neofight
Footballguy
Two simple things; watch the film then admit you are wrong.Maybe a good idea would be to take a class on formulating a good argument so you don't have to resort to hyperbole, fallacy and borderline lunacy. A novela? Get serious.
Neofight
Footballguy
Without resorting to multiquote since I am on my mobile, that's not quite right. You said the ball was "low and away", "behind" and "below the belt". One would think this is shtick since you can pretty easily prove you are wrong, especially from the end zone camera.Yes, it was; I never said it wasn't. The catch could have been made easier by a more accurate pass. That is all I ever said.Wilson's pass, which should have been easy, was neither of those things, and it made the catch harder for Robinson.My god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
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Neofight
Footballguy
Please explain, with your formidable football knowledge, how any QB hits any receiver running that particular route between the numbers.OK, you must not get out much. It's ridiculous to say that a pass that hits a receiver right between the numbers is easier to catch than a pass that he has to reach behind him for?Whatever....most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.Yes, it was; I never said it wasn't. The catch could have been made easier by a more accurate pass. That is all I ever said.Wilson's pass, which should have been easy, was neither of those things, and it made the catch harder for Robinson.My god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
Throw it between his numbers, not behind him??? Don't think it's that complicated.I see what you're trying to do, by taking my comment out of context, but on that kind of quick out, the QB should throw a chest-high ball that leads the receiver slightly. If the receiver were to continue the route without turning his head/body to catch the ball, it should hit him right in the middle of the numbers on his back. Wilson's pass wouldn't have done that.Here is a still-shot of the Robinson catch:TD CATCHInstead of Robinson being able to catch the ball with his palms down, he has his palms up, to catch the low pass. Instead of being in position to turn upfield quickly, his back is completely perpendicular to the goal line. Pictures don't lie: it wasn't an accurate pass.Please explain, with your formidable football knowledge, how any QB hits any receiver running that particular route between the numbers.OK, you must not get out much. It's ridiculous to say that a pass that hits a receiver right between the numbers is easier to catch than a pass that he has to reach behind him for?Whatever....most ridiculous argument I have ever heard.Yes, it was; I never said it wasn't. The catch could have been made easier by a more accurate pass. That is all I ever said.Wilson's pass, which should have been easy, was neither of those things, and it made the catch harder for Robinson.My god man, is this really what you are arguing? That a TD pass didn't land pin point between the 2 and 6 of Mike Rob's jersey? Jimminey Christmas! Is that what the Wilson hate has become? picking apart a TD throw?
CapnJB
Footballguy
Neofight
Footballguy
Seriously, the phrase you are looking for is "ball placement". It was an accurate pass and any fool can see that the ball was chest high in your own picture. Plenty of routes do not require good ball placement to be such that the receiver has his palms up. Care to take a stab at naming a few? Otherwise please stop with the palms up/palms down nonsense. The fact that Robinson didn't even have to break stride to catch the ball tells you the throw was accurate. Even your picture shows it was neither low, away nor behind him.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Really, Really starting to look like I was right.Great pick, fell right to a team which gives him a great chance for success. He'll end up being one of the top 2 QBs coming out of this years draft.
biju
Footballguy
What the picture also doesn't really show is the pressure coming from the Redskins that Wilson makes sure can't get the ball by throwing it slightly outside. A truly bad throw might have been tipped or even intercepted had he tried to place in in front of him.It wasn't the best throw, but a throw that ends in a completion and a touchdown seems like a weird one to pick on. Every QB has ugly TDs. But I think the issue here is another of semantics (a pretty common occurrence on this board for some reason--I blame people's need to be "right" in their argument) where he's focusing on "proves ROY" instead of just seeing that one play for what it is.I don't think this game proved anything except that Wilson can keep his composure in big games. I also don't think it was a bad pass.
Neofight
Footballguy
Perhaps you're right on the semantics argument, but I don't think by saying the pass was low or below the belt he is arguing the meaning of ROY or how this play influences the award. That is a completely different argument he was having with another member. What he did definitely engage in is hyperbole to try and prove his point to that other member, and that is what I am pointing out.Wilson's ball placement on that throw wasn't perfect; very few balls are. His accuracy was excellent and, you're correct, leading Robinson to the sideline was the right thing to do based on the call and defensive formation. When you see the play from the end zone view it's very clear that this was a good play call executed very well. For him to argue otherwise isn't semantics, it's silliness.
If you don't understand the nuances of QB play/WR play, don't try to pretend you do. The only time a receiver wants to HAVE to catch a ball with their palms up (ball below their waist) is when they are in danger of being hit by an oncoming defender. **BTW-I've already posted this, if you bothered to read the thread instead of spouting nonsense, you'd know that**The picture is what it is, there isn't any manipulation of the image, no trick photography. You can say the "any fool" can see that the ball was chest high, but unless you are talking about a "little person," it wasn't anywhere near chest high.
Like it or not, Wilson didn't play a great game on Sunday. He wasn't sharp, but played well enough to win. He'll have to (and I think he will) play better to beat Atlanta.
I'm not sure you read all of my posts in this portion of the thread, but that (the bolded) is THE FOCUS of my recent posts. Someone posted that Wilson's game on Sunday PROVED he should be ROY. I responded that it wasn't that good of a game. I've posted several times that I like Wilson and think he'll be a good/great NFL QB. I've also posted that I think, at worst, he should be 2nd in the ROY voting. All that being said, his game on Sunday wasn't great. I noted his poor completion %, and another poster said he had 2 good passes dropped, so his completion % should have been higher. I noted that he had several poor passes that were caught, as well. I specifically mentioned this pass and the Rice sideline catch. It's not about proving I'm right. I'm merely defending my position: which is that Sunday's game didn't prove Wilson deserved ROY. If you wanted to make the argument that 1 game proved that, you could have picked any of this other great games towards the end of the season to make that argument, but not this one.
Mr. Bojangles
Footballguy
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