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***Russell Wilson Bandwagon***

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1 hour ago, Hooper31 said:

I disagree with you here too, but only in the sense that he’s a better “typical” quarterback than he looks.

That’s exactly what I meant when I said that, so you’re actually agreeing with me. 

;) 

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To be clear, I’m not one to defend Wilson. I was defending the team. They certainly didn’t quit last week. 

Sure looked like they did when they let the Rams walk into Seattle and curb stomp them.  I’ve never seen them play so badly & disinterestedly at home. It got so bad that in the middle of the 2nd quarter you could hear a pin drop from the “12th man”. 

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Wilson is far from a prototypical quarterback. The knowledgeable writers that cover him weekly are starting to comment more and more. He misses obvious throws far too often and creates his own sacks when his tackles do their job well. Wilson has some major flaws in his game that are showing up more often. I don’t disagree that he’s a unique talent making it tough to judge his performances compared to others. Overall I’m glad he our QB in Seattle, but he’s far from perfect. 

Thanks for mansplaining Russell Wilson to me. :lol: I’ve observed each and every one of those things.

based on the Swiss cheese OL, he’s severely regressed, often heading footsteps too early & making poor improv decisions. Back when those breakdowns would occur 1-2 maybe 3 times a game, it was impressive to see how he’d improv his way out of it like a magician. But you can’t run an offense that’s 100% backyard football, with breakdowns seemingly on every play.

but we agree he’s better than he’s shown - I’m not sure any QB not named Wilson could have the success he’s had this season - it’s truly remarkable that he’s put up as many points as they have & a legitimate case for MVP could (and should) be made for him. That they’re going to the playoffs is mind-boggling.

I’d say they’re 1 & done, except for the Wilson factor - you just never know what miracle he’ll pull off.  

But all carriages turn into pumpkins eventually, and it’s felt like midnight for a few weeks here. He was awful last week & he was again awful this week. That he put up some fantasy stats under the circumstances was ancilariy to his actual NFL performance. 

Hard to win a playoff game throwing for less than 100 yards, and the other playoff teams are pretty unlikely to have a QB as terrible as Dak was. 

But I wish your team luck. We’ve all got our opinions. I’m not hating on Seattle. I lived there for years and have many friends in the fanbase. It’s also hard for me to see them as a Niners rival because in my mind they’re an AFC team since that’s what they were when I was growing up.

but they had the look of a team that quit against LAR.  You’re welcome to disagree with me, but that’s my opinion.

As for questioning the heart of a champion, I don’t see this team as a champion - I see a hot mess. The defense is decimated, they don’t have a run game & the OL is awful. And according to reports there’s been chemistry issues since Wilson got paid. Not sure how much truth to those rumors, but where there’s smoke there’s often fire. 

Best of luck to your team in the playoffs. Looking forward to seeing how they retool for next year & seeing how Garoppolo does against them. 

 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy

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43 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

Weird. I distinctly remember having a discussion with you following last season where I said that Wilson has been on a down slide ever since his fantastic rookie season. You disagreed and said he was one of the up and coming/top QBs in the league

Likely me. My opinions have changed this year. I’ve tried to tune into more objective analysis (Scott Kacsmar at football outsiders, Davis Hsu on twitter to name a couple - he does phenomenal work breaking down the Seahawks cap and roster). 

Wilson is good enough to win it all, but not by himself. Nor do I think any QB can do that. I think wins is the silliest metric when measuring QBs.  Attempting to do this in the ultimate team game is a farce. 

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15 hours ago, Hooper31 said:

Likely me. My opinions have changed this year. I’ve tried to tune into more objective analysis (Scott Kacsmar at football outsiders, Davis Hsu on twitter to name a couple - he does phenomenal work breaking down the Seahawks cap and roster). 

Wilson is good enough to win it all, but not by himself. Nor do I think any QB can do that. I think wins is the silliest metric when measuring QBs.  Attempting to do this in the ultimate team game is a farce. 

Wilson is a good NFL QB. He's not a super star. He can do some neat things and win you some games, but without that defense in his early career I'm not sure he has half the success he's had. He's a very much above average but when he makes mistakes it kills you. 

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11 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

Wilson is a good NFL QB. He's not a super star. He can do some neat things and win you some games, but without that defense in his early career I'm not sure he has half the success he's had. He's a very much above average but when he makes mistakes it kills you. 

True for most QBs. What’s mind-boggling is that the Seahawks have failed to asdresss the glaring deficiency af OL.

the obvious result is more QB pressure, which forces more of those avoidable errors. 

Maybe they assumed his mobility would compensate for a well below average OL. :shrug:

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35 minutes ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

True for most QBs. What’s mind-boggling is that the Seahawks have failed to asdresss the glaring deficiency af OL.

the obvious result is more QB pressure, which forces more of those avoidable errors. 

Maybe they assumed his mobility would compensate for a well below average OL. :shrug:

Yes this is correct. There are a lot of holes on this team in general (RB, OL). 

I disagree with anyone who wants to say Wilson is a top 5 QB. Even top 10. Wilson is ranked anywhere from 12-15 for me. I'd go as far as to say that I'd prefer Watson, Carr, Mariota, or Goff over Wilson if I'm starting an NFL franchise. Mariota is a similar talent, but I think he's just a better overall QB. Wilson might be more intelligent however.

I just don't think he's going to ever get to top 3 or 5 status, and Seattle needs to realize this by surrounding him with better talent. Especially as that defense is dismantled by free agency and retirements. Seattle will otherwise be living in forever mediocrity. 

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It's so funny, if he was playing great this conversation wouldn't  exist. It would be he's doing it all with no real star at WR, no running game (except for him) and no offensive line. Picture him in Pittsburgh, playing with all those shiny toys on offense and a much better O-line he'd be better than he has. Remember this, you could plug someone else in QB and they would be better, or have better record, however, you could plug in many other QBs and this team is worse.

Going into this season, one would be higher on some QBs who have under performed, lower on some QBs who have over performed

Edited by bigupsetter

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21 minutes ago, bigupsetter said:

It's so funny, if he was playing great this conversation wouldn't  exist. It would be he's doing it all with no real star at WR, no running game (except for him) and no offensive line. Picture him in Pittsburgh, playing with all those shiny toys on offense and a much better O-line he'd be better than he has. Remember this, you could plug someone else in QB and they would be better, or have better record, however, you could plug in many other QBs and this team is worse.

Going into this season, one would be higher on some QBs who have under performed, lower on some QBs who have over performed

So, in your opinion, Big Ben is the same as Russell Wilson? In spite of the fact that they are very very different QBs? 

How would you explain that, the less Russell Wilson is asked to do, the more successful he is and the Seahawks are? 

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Just now, Dr. Dan said:

So, in your opinion, Big Ben is the same as Russell Wilson? In spite of the fact that they are very very different QBs? 

How would you explain that, the less Russell Wilson is asked to do, the more successful he is and the Seahawks are? 

I'm saying the Seahawks are a bad team. Much of their woes have been masked for much of the season. Wilson not as bad as some think, not as good as some think- most QBs are not what people think. Most QB's are not what the record says. Russell Wilson has won them some games I dont think they win without him, and some losses are because of the teams defficienies

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39 minutes ago, bigupsetter said:

I'm saying the Seahawks are a bad team. Much of their woes have been masked for much of the season. Wilson not as bad as some think, not as good as some think- most QBs are not what people think. Most QB's are not what the record says. Russell Wilson has won them some games I dont think they win without him, and some losses are because of the teams defficienies

right but you implied that if he were on PIT he would be at super star status with those weapons. I disagree. Wilson's strengths do not match up with what Big Ben's strengths are 

Where we can agree is that Wilson is not as bad as some think, or as good as some think. I do agree that he would be more successful with a better offense around him. 

My main point was he isn't a QB who is going to put the team on his back and lead them to a playoff run in spite of the offensive woes (Brady, Rodgers, Brees, even Roethlisberger in his prime). He's a guy similar to Eli Manning IMO (who was a good QB); he's a franchise QB, but needs lots of help on defense and offense (even coaching) to really be successful.

Edited by Dr. Dan

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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

Yes this is correct. There are a lot of holes on this team in general (RB, OL). 

I disagree with anyone who wants to say Wilson is a top 5 QB. Even top 10. Wilson is ranked anywhere from 12-15 for me. I'd go as far as to say that I'd prefer Watson, Carr, Mariota, or Goff over Wilson if I'm starting an NFL franchise. Mariota is a similar talent, but I think he's just a better overall QB. Wilson might be more intelligent however.

I just don't think he's going to ever get to top 3 or 5 status, and Seattle needs to realize this by surrounding him with better talent. Especially as that defense is dismantled by free agency and retirements. Seattle will otherwise be living in forever mediocrity. 

What QB isn't helped by surrounding them with better talent? 

Watson, Carr, Goff? Mariota? Sorry I can't buy any of those. The offense was really badly put together this year, had a pretty horrible year and they are still in the run for playoff spot this year, that's all on him. None of those guys are doing that, honestly not sure who else in the league could.

We haven't even mentioned that he's out there every game.

 

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

right but you implied that if he were on PIT he would be at super star status with those weapons. I disagree. Wilson's strengths do not match up with what Big Ben's strengths are 

Where we can agree is that Wilson is not as bad as some think, or as good as some think. I do agree that he would be more successful with a better offense around him. 

My main point was he isn't a QB who is going to put the team on his back and lead them to a playoff run in spite of the offensive woes (Brady, Rodgers, Brees, even Roethlisberger in his prime). He's a guy similar to Eli Manning IMO (who was a good QB); he's a franchise QB, but needs lots of help on defense and offense (even coaching) to really be successful.

I think Wilson would be much better with a much better OL (and has been better with a marginally better OL in the past) 

he doesn’t even need better receivers. Baldwin/Lockett/Richardson + Jimmy Graham should be more than adequate. A good RB would make a huge difference, but we don’t really know if any of their RBs could be that guy because the OL is hot garbage. When Wilson isn’t running for his life, they’re committing bad holds and false starts.

IMO Seattle’s biggest need is OL and help on defense. The talent on offense isn’t the issue - it’s lacking the time to get the ball to that talent, or drive killing penalties that negate the talent. 

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3 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

True for most QBs. What’s mind-boggling is that the Seahawks have failed to asdresss the glaring deficiency af OL.

the obvious result is more QB pressure, which forces more of those avoidable errors. 

Maybe they assumed his mobility would compensate for a well below average OL. :shrug:

They spent a lot of resources on the OL. They have been trying, they have just sucked at picking the right guys. Schneider has had a lot of homeruns, picking OL not one of them.

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Just now, The General said:

They spent a lot of resources on the OL. They have been trying, they have just sucked at picking the right guys. Schneider has had a lot of homeruns, picking OL not one of them.

That’s fair. They didn’t fail to address it, they failed to succeed at addressing it.  Better stated. 

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1 hour ago, The General said:

What QB isn't helped by surrounding them with better talent? 

Watson, Carr, Goff? Mariota? Sorry I can't buy any of those. The offense was really badly put together this year, had a pretty horrible year and they are still in the run for playoff spot this year, that's all on him. None of those guys are doing that, honestly not sure who else in the league could.

We haven't even mentioned that he's out there every game.

 

 

 

Brock Osweiler? He failed miserably surrounded by pro bowl level talent in HOU
Most QBs post-Manning in Denver have failed with good talent around them
Many Qbs in Cleveland have failed, and they have probably the best OL, good WRs, and very talented RBs, not to mention a top notch defense
Winston in TB has great talent around him
Every QB in Chicago over the last 2 decades... they've had great WRs, great RBs, one of the better defenses
Cam Newton has had probowl caliber WRs, TE, RB and he still throws the ball to the ground
I can go on...

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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

Brock Osweiler? He failed miserably surrounded by pro bowl level talent in HOU
Most QBs post-Manning in Denver have failed with good talent around them
Many Qbs in Cleveland have failed, and they have probably the best OL, good WRs, and very talented RBs, not to mention a top notch defense
Winston in TB has great talent around him
Every QB in Chicago over the last 2 decades... they've had great WRs, great RBs, one of the better defenses
Cam Newton has had probowl caliber WRs, TE, RB and he still throws the ball to the ground
I can go on...

They wouldn’t be better with better talent around them?

 

 

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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

Brock Osweiler? He failed miserably surrounded by pro bowl level talent in HOU
Most QBs post-Manning in Denver have failed with good talent around them
Many Qbs in Cleveland have failed, and they have probably the best OL, good WRs, and very talented RBs, not to mention a top notch defense
Winston in TB has great talent around him
Every QB in Chicago over the last 2 decades... they've had great WRs, great RBs, one of the better defenses
Cam Newton has had probowl caliber WRs, TE, RB and he still throws the ball to the ground
I can go on...

Besides all this. Was more surprised with anyone taking Mariota over Wilson. That’s crazy. 

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4 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

right but you implied that if he were on PIT he would be at super star status with those weapons. I disagree. Wilson's strengths do not match up with what Big Ben's strengths are 

Where we can agree is that Wilson is not as bad as some think, or as good as some think. I do agree that he would be more successful with a better offense around him. 

My main point was he isn't a QB who is going to put the team on his back and lead them to a playoff run in spite of the offensive woes (Brady, Rodgers, Brees, even Roethlisberger in his prime). He's a guy similar to Eli Manning IMO (who was a good QB); he's a franchise QB, but needs lots of help on defense and offense (even coaching) to really be successful.

All I meant is he would be doing better on Pitt than hes doing currently. I mostly picked them because they are very well rounded and Seattle is not- could be many other teams. 

Edited by bigupsetter

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4 hours ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

I think Wilson would be much better with a much better OL (and has been better with a marginally better OL in the past) 

he doesn’t even need better receivers. Baldwin/Lockett/Richardson + Jimmy Graham should be more than adequate. A good RB would make a huge difference, but we don’t really know if any of their RBs could be that guy because the OL is hot garbage. When Wilson isn’t running for his life, they’re committing bad holds and false starts.

IMO Seattle’s biggest need is OL and help on defense. The talent on offense isn’t the issue - it’s lacking the time to get the ball to that talent, or drive killing penalties that negate the talent. 

Yes, what he said!! lol, that was/is my point

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Wilson has some limitations that other more prototypical QBs don't have, but he is also capable of making plays that no other QB in league history has made. IMO there is no QB in the NFL who would have outperformed him in the situation he has experienced this season - current OL, RBs, defense (with injuries). Not a one. Some of the names mentioned are just silly.

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17 hours ago, The General said:

They wouldn’t be better with better talent around them?

 

 

So having a probowl caliber RB, one of the best WRs and TEs in the game, as well as the top defense in the league wasn't enough for Osweiler... I guess we should put him on the AFC probowl team and see if he can do better? 

Come on... you're better than this

17 hours ago, The General said:

Besides all this. Was more surprised with anyone taking Mariota over Wilson. That’s crazy. 

Is it though?

2016
95.6 QBR, 3400 passing yards, 26/9 TD/INT ratio
92.6 QBR, 4200 passing yards, 21/11 TD/INT ratio

Wilson may have more yards, but he also had 75 more attempts. 

Sure, this year Mariota looks like he's struggling but IMO he is still catching up from his injury and he has a very bright future. Wilson has been in the league 6 years... what you sse is what you get at this point. Mariota is performing close to Wilson's level and he's just a baby in the NFL

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1 hour ago, Dr. Dan said:

So having a probowl caliber RB, one of the best WRs and TEs in the game, as well as the top defense in the league wasn't enough for Osweiler... I guess we should put him on the AFC probowl team and see if he can do better? 

Come on... you're better than this

Is it though?

2016
95.6 QBR, 3400 passing yards, 26/9 TD/INT ratio
92.6 QBR, 4200 passing yards, 21/11 TD/INT ratio

Wilson may have more yards, but he also had 75 more attempts. 

Sure, this year Mariota looks like he's struggling but IMO he is still catching up from his injury and he has a very bright future. Wilson has been in the league 6 years... what you sse is what you get at this point. Mariota is performing close to Wilson's level and he's just a baby in the NFL

We have seen what Wilson does when he has good players around him, he wins Super Bowls. I guess I'll add you need to be good :lol: Wilson is good. It's a throw away comment that if you have better players around you, you will have more success. 

Anyways, why are you picking last year's stats. Wilson played on one leg, he should have sat honestly, and still got them to the playoffs.

How about this year: 
Wilson: 94.7 QBR, 3,762 PY, 32 TDs /11 INT
Mariota: 78.6 QBR, 3.098 PY, 12 TDs / 15 INT

Wilson is also the leading rusher on his team. After they beat Philly a couple weeks ago the hot take was he was now the leading MVP candidate.

How about Mariota'a other season 2015:
Wilson: 110.1 QBR, 4,024 PY, 34 TDs / 8 INT
Mariota: 91.5 QBR, 2,818 PY, 19 TDs / 10 INT

If anything it looks like Mariota is regressing, Wilson's numbers are much better regardless. No one is taking Mariota over Wilson.

You had him at 12-15, that's pretty absurd.

 

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47 minutes ago, The General said:

We have seen what Wilson does when he has good players around him, he wins Super Bowls. I guess I'll add you need to be good :lol: Wilson is good. It's a throw away comment that if you have better players around you, you will have more success. 

Anyways, why are you picking last year's stats. Wilson played on one leg, he should have sat honestly, and still got them to the playoffs.

How about this year: 
Wilson: 94.7 QBR, 3,762 PY, 32 TDs /11 INT
Mariota: 78.6 QBR, 3.098 PY, 12 TDs / 15 INT

Wilson is also the leading rusher on his team. After they beat Philly a couple weeks ago the hot take was he was now the leading MVP candidate.

How about Mariota'a other season 2015:
Wilson: 110.1 QBR, 4,024 PY, 34 TDs / 8 INT
Mariota: 91.5 QBR, 2,818 PY, 19 TDs / 10 INT

If anything it looks like Mariota is regressing, Wilson's numbers are much better regardless. No one is taking Mariota over Wilson.

You had him at 12-15, that's pretty absurd.

 

Mariota was a rookie in 2015 on a terrible team. Wilson was a rookie on a pretty good Seattle team. 

Also, I said this year Mariota has been struggling. He had a pretty catastrophic injury last year. TBH I was surprised he came back week 1. IMO he is still playing catch up. It's not worth arguing at this point, agree to disagree. 


12-15, yes, there are 11 or 14 other QBs I'd have in the league. I'm sorry you can't take your homer glasses off... But okay, let's play along and drop Mariota from my list. It's still: Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Carr, Watson, a healthy Luck, Ryan, Goff, Wentz, Dak, Cousins. Either they are better, or have way more potential than Wilson. Wilson is what he is, an average to above average QB. He won't be much better in his career if he hasn't achieved it by now. 

You say Mariota is regressing... in year three... that's kind of cute. But let's look at Wilson's statistics. Wilson has set back to back records for most INT for his career in back to back years. Also, his QB rating the last 2 years is his two lowest years. Coincidentally, the last two years he has been asked to do more by throwing 500+ attempts a game. So, the more Wilson is given the reigns, the worse he has performed than when he was playing second fiddle to a run-first offense with Lynch, throwing 50-75 less attempts a year. Wilson's peak was in 2015, where he cashed in on an insane deal that will ultimately end up hurting Seattle. 

Wilson can pretend to be Aaron Rodgers all he wants, and try to be the playmaker on his offense, but in the end he's better when he's just a QB managing a game and there's someone else on offense running the show. That and an amazing defense leading the way so that at the end of the game, 10-14 offensive points has a significant chance of winning

Edited by Dr. Dan

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1 minute ago, Dr. Dan said:

Mariota was a rookie in 2015 on a terrible team. Wilson was a rookie on a pretty good Seattle team. 

Also, I said this year Mariota has been struggling. He had a pretty catastrophic injury last year. TBH I was surprised he came back week 1. IMO he is still playing catch up. It's not worth arguing at this point, agree to disagree. 


12-15, yes, there are 11 or 14 other QBs I'd have in the league. I'm sorry you can't take your homer glasses off... But okay, let's play along and drop Mariota from my list. It's still: Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Carr, Watson, a healthy Luck, Ryan, Goff, Wentz, Dak, Cousins. Either they are better, or have way more potential than Wilson. Wilson is what he is, an average to above average QB. He won't be much better in his career if he hasn't achieved it by now. 

You say Mariota is regressing... in year three... that's kind of cute. But let's look at Wilson's statistics. Wilson has set back to back records for most INT for his career in back to back years. Also, his QB rating the last 2 years is his two lowest years. Coincidentally, the last two years he has been asked to do more by throwing 500+ attempts a game. So, the more Wilson is given the reigns, the worse he has performed than when he was playing second fiddle to a run-first offense with Lynch, throwing 50-75 less attempts a year. Wilson's peak was in 2015, where he cashed in on an insane deal that will ultimately end up hurting Seattle. 

Wilson had 2 awful injuries last year as well but he played through them. I like Mariota, was just bringing him up because you did. Glad to see you realize no one is picking him over Wilson.

Carr, Watson, Goff, Dak, Cousins. Sorry, no way. Not sure how you come to that other than just saying they are "better".

Ryan in the right situation is in the conversation (he would be dead on this Seahawk team). "Healthy" Luck well, we'll see about that. Shoulder injury that doesn't heal is no bueno. Everyone likes Luck, hope he can come back so we see where his career goes. 

Seahawks are a really flawed team this year, doesn't have much to do with Wilson. He's right after the top, top guys in the league. Rogers, Brady. He's also 29.

 

 

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1 hour ago, The General said:

Wilson had 2 awful injuries last year as well but he played through them. I like Mariota, was just bringing him up because you did. Glad to see you realize no one is picking him over Wilson.

Carr, Watson, Goff, Dak, Cousins. Sorry, no way. Not sure how you come to that other than just saying they are "better".

Ryan in the right situation is in the conversation (he would be dead on this Seahawk team). "Healthy" Luck well, we'll see about that. Shoulder injury that doesn't heal is no bueno. Everyone likes Luck, hope he can come back so we see where his career goes. 

Seahawks are a really flawed team this year, doesn't have much to do with Wilson. He's right after the top, top guys in the league. Rogers, Brady. He's also 29.

 

 

Talk about crazy... 



And yes... Wilson's contract will hurt Seattle. It's very back loaded. He counted 14 million against the cap this year, and the next two seasons will be 23 and 25 million in cap space.... if that doesn't hurt a team I don't know what salary will. 

Edited by Dr. Dan

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On 12/27/2017 at 7:40 AM, Dr. Dan said:

I disagree with anyone who wants to say Wilson is a top 5 QB. Even top 10. Wilson is ranked anywhere from 12-15 for me. I'd go as far as to say that I'd prefer Watson, Carr, Mariota, or Goff over Wilson if I'm starting an NFL franchise.

 

2 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

12-15, yes, there are 11 or 14 other QBs I'd have in the league. I'm sorry you can't take your homer glasses off... But okay, let's play along and drop Mariota from my list. It's still: Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Carr, Watson, a healthy Luck, Ryan, Goff, Wentz, Dak, Cousins. Either they are better, or have way more potential than Wilson

 

In your first quote above, you referenced preferring some of these guys if you were starting an NFL franchise. Are you mixing concepts here, or are you saying that you prefer 12-15 other QBs if starting a franchise?

If you are saying you prefer Brady or Brees if starting a franchise, I can see why you aren't a NFL GM, given their ages.

Saying you believe Carr, Dak, and Mariota are either better or have more potential than Wilson makes me question your ability to assess QBs.

Although I would not personally agree with all of them, I can see arguments for the rest of them named here: Rodgers, Watson, Luck, Ryan, Goff, Wentz, Cousins. There are counter arguments for most of them: Watson is unproven, Luck is unhealthy, Ryan is a few years older and may only have 4-6 seasons remaining, Goff may be a product of McVay, etc.

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37 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

Talk about crazy... 



And yes... Wilson's contract will hurt Seattle. It's very back loaded. He counted 14 million against the cap this year, and the next two seasons will be 23 and 25 million in cap space.... if that doesn't hurt a team I don't know what salary will. 

I think more people would agree that he’s closer to the top than the lot you had him behind. Cousins :lol: 

But oh well. We all have our opinions. 

To his contract that’s what QBs that win SBs get. Even mediocre QB’s in their 4th year cost crazy amounts. Teams shift money around at the end of deals, the cap expands, etc. It’s what teams have to pay. Wilson is elite teams are happily to pay elite guys. 

The awful signing of Lacy instead of getting Lang or Wentworth at OL coupled with poor choices in the draft at OL is the downfall this year. It won’t be Wilson’s contract now or in the future. 

And, what is the alternative, they let him go? Sign whatever dreck happened to be available a couple years ago and let him walk? Draft a new QB in the 2nd round and start him? 

Put any other QB on this team they die :lol: Rodgers would have had his collar bone in snapped in week 3. 

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2 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

Wilson is what he is, an average to above average QB

Does "an average to above average QB" set NFL records?

  • Current NFL records:
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first two seasons (24); most total wins in first two seasons (28, including playoffs)
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first three seasons: 36
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first four seasons: 46
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first five seasons: 56 (tied with Matt Ryan)
    • Only QB to win 10+ games in each of his first five seasons
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first six seasons: 64
    • Most passing touchdowns in a season by a rookie: 26 (tied with Peyton Manning)
    • Most passing yards in a playoff game by a rookie: 385
    • First QB to throw for 300+ yards and rush for 100+ yards in a single game: 10/19/14 vs St. Louis Rams
    • Only QB to have 4,000+ passing yards, 30+ passing touchdowns, and 500+ rushing yards in the same season: 2015
    • Most games 1+ passing touchdowns, season (tied with others twelve players): 16, 2015
    • Most consecutive games with 3+ touchdown passes and no interceptions: 5, 2015
    • Most fourth-quarter touchdowns in a season: 17, 2017 (so far)
    • Most multi-touchdown/zero-interception games through 5 seasons: 28
    • 2nd highest passer rating, career (minimum 1,500 attempts): 99.6
    • Highest passer rating through a QB’s first five seasons: 99.6
    • Most 100+ passer rating games through five seasons (38)
    • Most 100+ passer rating games through six seasons (45)
    • Highest adjusted yards per pass attempt (AY/A) through 5 seasons: 8.20
  • On pace to set another: Highest percentage of team offense, season: currently 86.2% in 2017, with one game to go (record is 81.8%)

Does "an average to above average QB" hold active NFL ranks like these?

  • Passer rating: #2, 98.7, behind only Rodgers
  • Completion percentage: #6, 64.1%
  • Yards per pass attempt: #3, 7.8, behind only Rodgers and Roethlisberger
  • Yards per pass completion: #3, 12.2, behind only Newton and Roethlisberger
  • TD percentage: #2, 5.7%, behind only Rodgers
  • Interception percentage: #4, 2.0%
  • Yards per rushing attempt: #1, 5.7 ypc

Does "an average to above average QB" make the Pro Bowl 4 times within his first 6 seasons?

I think the answer to all 3 questions is obviously no. Your assessment of Wilson is completely off base.

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1 minute ago, Just Win Baby said:

Does "an average to above average QB" set NFL records?

  • Current NFL records:
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first two seasons (24); most total wins in first two seasons (28, including playoffs)
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first three seasons: 36
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first four seasons: 46
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first five seasons: 56 (tied with Matt Ryan)
    • Only QB to win 10+ games in each of his first five seasons
    • Most regular season wins by a quarterback in his first six seasons: 64
    • Most passing touchdowns in a season by a rookie: 26 (tied with Peyton Manning)
    • Most passing yards in a playoff game by a rookie: 385
    • First QB to throw for 300+ yards and rush for 100+ yards in a single game: 10/19/14 vs St. Louis Rams
    • Only QB to have 4,000+ passing yards, 30+ passing touchdowns, and 500+ rushing yards in the same season: 2015
    • Most games 1+ passing touchdowns, season (tied with others twelve players): 16, 2015
    • Most consecutive games with 3+ touchdown passes and no interceptions: 5, 2015
    • Most fourth-quarter touchdowns in a season: 17, 2017 (so far)
    • Most multi-touchdown/zero-interception games through 5 seasons: 28
    • 2nd highest passer rating, career (minimum 1,500 attempts): 99.6
    • Highest passer rating through a QB’s first five seasons: 99.6
    • Most 100+ passer rating games through five seasons (38)
    • Most 100+ passer rating games through six seasons (45)
    • Highest adjusted yards per pass attempt (AY/A) through 5 seasons: 8.20
  • On pace to set another: Highest percentage of team offense, season: currently 86.2% in 2017, with one game to go (record is 81.8%)

Does "an average to above average QB" hold active NFL ranks like these?

  • Passer rating: #2, 98.7, behind only Rodgers
  • Completion percentage: #6, 64.1%
  • Yards per pass attempt: #3, 7.8, behind only Rodgers and Roethlisberger
  • Yards per pass completion: #3, 12.2, behind only Newton and Roethlisberger
  • TD percentage: #2, 5.7%, behind only Rodgers
  • Interception percentage: #4, 2.0%
  • Yards per rushing attempt: #1, 5.7 ypc

Does "an average to above average QB" make the Pro Bowl 4 times within his first 6 seasons?

I think the answer to all 3 questions is obviously no. Your assessment of Wilson is completely off base.

Well besides all that :lol: 

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33 minutes ago, The General said:

I think more people would agree that he’s closer to the top than the lot you had him behind. Cousins :lol: 

But oh well. We all have our opinions. 

To his contract that’s what QBs that win SBs get. Even mediocre QB’s in their 4th year cost crazy amounts. Teams shift money around at the end of deals, the cap expands, etc. It’s what teams have to pay. Wilson is elite teams are happily to pay elite guys. 

The awful signing of Lacy instead of getting Lang or Wentworth at OL coupled with poor choices in the draft at OL is the downfall this year. It won’t be Wilson’s contract now or in the future. 

And, what is the alternative, they let him go? Sign whatever dreck happened to be available a couple years ago and let him walk? Draft a new QB in the 2nd round and start him? 

Put any other QB on this team they die :lol: Rodgers would have had his collar bone in snapped in week 3. 

I never said they should let him go. I said his contract will eat up a lot of cap space and be harmful to their flexibility to surround him with high quality players. 25 million for one guy is a lot. You laughed at that and said his contract wasn't a big deal. :lol: 

Flacco had an insane contract after he one his sole superbowl too. We all see what that did to Baltimore. :lol: 

What Seattle should have done was signed him to a better deal. Unfortunately, they will have less cap flexibility to retain many of their own and may struggle to prvide him with a top notch defense and a capable OL, which is what Wilson needs to win more than 1 superbowl :lol: 

Guess we will have to wiat and see. :lol: 

And no, Wilson is not 3rd in the pecking order in the NFL for QBs. That's insane :lol: 

Edited by Dr. Dan
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7 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

I never said they should let him go. I said his contract will eat up a lot of cap space and be harmful to their flexibility to surround him with high quality players. 25 million for one guy is a lot. You laughed at that and said his contract wasn't a big deal. :lol: 

Flacco had an insane contract after he one his sole superbowl too. We all see what that did to Baltimore. :lol: 

What Seattle should have done was signed him to a better deal. Unfortunately, they will have less cap flexibility to retain many of their own and may struggle to prvide him with a top notch defense and a capable OL, which is what Wilson needs to win more than 1 superbowl :lol: 

Guess we will have to wiat and see. :lol: 

And no, Wilson is not 3rd in the pecking order in the NFL for QBs. That's insane :lol: 

You having a stroke?

 

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8 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

I never said they should let him go. I said his contract will eat up a lot of cap space and be harmful to their flexibility to surround him with high quality players. 25 million for one guy is a lot. You laughed at that and said his contract wasn't a big deal. :lol: 

Flacco had an insane contract after he one his sole superbowl too. We all see what that did to Baltimore. :lol: 

What Seattle should have done was signed him to a better deal. Unfortunately, they will have less cap flexibility to retain many of their own and may struggle to prvide him with a top notch defense and a capable OL, which is what Wilson needs to win more than 1 superbowl :lol: 

Guess we will have to wiat and see. :lol: 

And no, Wilson is not 3rd in the pecking order in the NFL for QBs. That's insane :lol: 

Sign him to a better deal. Good plan!

Derek Carr is 25 million, Cousins will be 25 mill. That’s what you pay for your QB.

And yes, Wilson is right behind the top, top level guys. 

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I don’t have a problem with the size of Wilson’s contract. Compared to others his is just fine, but there a lot of other factors at work. His numbers are going to get passed up by others every year as other quartbacks come due for new contracts. Also, the cap keeps going up up up.

Lastly, there’s the Brady factor. NFL owners can thank him for marrying a woman that makes way more than he ever could. NE isn’t cap smart, they got lucky there that he could play for free and he wouldn’t have money issues. 

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On 12/27/2017 at 0:01 PM, Dr. Dan said:

right but you implied that if he were on PIT he would be at super star status with those weapons. I disagree. Wilson's strengths do not match up with what Big Ben's strengths are 

Where we can agree is that Wilson is not as bad as some think, or as good as some think. I do agree that he would be more successful with a better offense around him. 

My main point was he isn't a QB who is going to put the team on his back and lead them to a playoff run in spite of the offensive woes (Brady, Rodgers, Brees, even Roethlisberger in his prime). He's a guy similar to Eli Manning IMO (who was a good QB); he's a franchise QB, but needs lots of help on defense and offense (even coaching) to really be successful.

I said Steelers b/c they have o-line and running game. I think if you plugged many QBs you mentioned they would be better there.

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Prime example of reality: Matt Ryan. He’s got one year left at about $21.6M. Odds are that he gets paid this summer with an enormous number pushing all the guys who’ve signed newer deals farther down the list. This is the way of the modern NFL for all teams. 

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13 hours ago, Hooper31 said:

Prime example of reality: Matt Ryan. He’s got one year left at about $21.6M. Odds are that he gets paid this summer with an enormous number pushing all the guys who’ve signed newer deals farther down the list. This is the way of the modern NFL for all teams. 

Thats the way it is with QB, read an interesting article that explained why stafford will probably be highest earner in NFL history- when he was drafted, where he was drafted and position he plays. We see it all the time, we saw flacco capitalize, we saw carr captialize. That position will probably be first to see fully guaranteed contract too.

We digress though. Wilson is responsible for highest team TD%, Wilson has his team with a chance at playoffs, he has been running for his life. He was playing some really good football until recently. He was in the MVP race. I should have said you put on PHi, LAR, NO, MIN, PIT he is playing behind better line with better running game. I think Jax would swap him for Bortles in a second

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After tomorrow's game Wilson is set to become only the fifth quarterback since the 1970 AFL-NFL merger to lead his team in rushing, according to the Elias Sports Bureau, and it won't be close. Wilson has 550 rushing yards while no teammate has more than 210.

He's either thrown (32) or rushed (three) for all but one of Seattle's 36 offensive touchdowns, or 97 percent. That would be the highest percentage for any single player in a season in league history, according to ESPN Stats & Information.

He's thrown an NFL-record 18 fourth-quarter touchdown passes. Wilson's 32 TD passes overall are one off the league lead and two shy of his career best.

Edited by The General
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26 minutes ago, The General said:

After tomorrow's game Wilson is set to become only the fifth quarterback since the 1970 AFL-NFL merger to lead his team in rushing, according to the Elias Sports Bureau, and it won't be close. Wilson has 550 rushing yards while no teammate has more than 210.

He's either thrown (32) or rushed (three) for all but one of Seattle's 36 offensive touchdowns, or 97 percent. That would be the highest percentage for any single player in a season in league history, according to ESPN Stats & Information.

Russell Wilson has thrown an NFL-record 18 fourth-quarter touchdown passes. Otto Greule Jr/Getty Images

He's thrown an NFL-record 18 fourth-quarter touchdown passes. Wilson's 32 TD passes overall are one off the league lead and two shy of his career best.

While interesting stats, were I building a pro football team, that’s not at all what I would want to see at the end of the year.

As you may have seen from my prior posts, I’m not a Wilson hater - I think he deserves MVP for carrying this offense to the playoffs. It borders on miraculous. 

But reading those stats, I see a team that’s incapable of running the ball or protecting the QB. 

He’s going to lead his team in rushing because he is under constant pressure and has to abandon the pocket while running for his life. 

That he has 3 rushing TDs and leads his team in rushing TDs is an embarrassing statistic, and reflects more poorly on the Seattle run game than it does positively on Wilson. 

Looking back at Seatle’s SB winning season, Wilson’s numbers are far more in line with a balanced offense. Wilson had a 26:9 TD:Int ratio, and Lynch rushed for 1257 yards with 12 RuTd. (Wilson was 2nd with 539 RuYd/1 RuTD)

That’s a balanced offense.

so while I’m in agreement with you that Wilson is better than Doc asserts, I see the 2017 Russell Wilson statistics as a byproduct of being in a horrible offense rather than as a positive. Lack of balance, inability to protect Wilson in the pocket, back yard style football is not exactly worthy of accolades. 

Edited by Hot Sauce Guy

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1 hour ago, The General said:

After tomorrow's game Wilson is set to become only the fifth quarterback since the 1970 AFL-NFL merger to lead his team in rushing, according to the Elias Sports Bureau, and it won't be close. Wilson has 550 rushing yards while no teammate has more than 210.

He's either thrown (32) or rushed (three) for all but one of Seattle's 36 offensive touchdowns, or 97 percent. That would be the highest percentage for any single player in a season in league history, according to ESPN Stats & Information.

He's thrown an NFL-record 18 fourth-quarter touchdown passes. Wilson's 32 TD passes overall are one off the league lead and two shy of his career best.

One of main reasons is due to so many different running backs. But no denying It’s an indication of a major problem.

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1 hour ago, Hot Sauce Guy said:

While interesting stats, were I building a pro football team, that’s not at all what I would want to see at the end of the year.

As you may have seen from my prior posts, I’m not a Wilson hater - I think he deserves MVP for carrying this offense to the playoffs. It borders on miraculous. 

But reading those stats, I see a team that’s incapable of running the ball or protecting the QB. 

He’s going to lead his team in rushing because he is under constant pressure and has to abandon the pocket while running for his life. 

That he has 3 rushing TDs and leads his team in rushing TDs is an embarrassing statistic, and reflects more poorly on the Seattle run game than it does positively on Wilson. 

Looking back at Seatle’s SB winning season, Wilson’s numbers are far more in line with a balanced offense. Wilson had a 26:9 TD:Int ratio, and Lynch rushed for 1257 yards with 12 RuTd. (Wilson was 2nd with 539 RuYd/1 RuTD)

That’s a balanced offense.

so while I’m in agreement with you that Wilson is better than Doc asserts, I see the 2017 Russell Wilson statistics as a byproduct of being in a horrible offense rather than as a positive. Lack of balance, inability to protect Wilson in the pocket, back yard style football is not exactly worthy of accolades. 

I was rrsponding regarding posts that had him at 13th at his position in the league or whatever. Thought that was absurd.

Yeah the team is totally flawed. Defense has holes all over the place, no running game, offensive line improved slightly but was still one of worst in the league.

They are playing for a playoff spot and hopefully finish with 10 wins. That’s all Wilson. He’s an elite player in this league.

 

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Of course Wilson is elite. Has been from the start.

I am going to guess that anyone saying otherwise hates the Seahawks, doesn't watch the games and/or just enjoys being a contrarian. 

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On 12/27/2017 at 7:40 AM, Dr. Dan said:

Wilson is ranked anywhere from 12-15 for me.

I guess I missed this gem when I passed through the first few times. No telling what the emotional long term effect is when your team gets jobbed by a bad call. For the record, no, I don't think that it should have been a TD.  Why on earth would anyone bother to try to justify any form of argument after reading that?

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On 12/30/2017 at 3:02 PM, Ghost Rider said:

Of course Wilson is elite. Has been from the start.

I am going to guess that anyone saying otherwise hates the Seahawks, doesn't watch the games and/or just enjoys being a contrarian. 

I dislike the word "elite" when trying to describe quarterbacks. There's no objective way to say one is or isn't. It's completely subjective and therefore nobody can be wrong when using the term. That said, Ghost is pretty much right on here. On top of the ole fail-mary play the Packers completely collapsed in another playoff loss to Seattle when they should have won. Those leave deep wounds. 

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On 1/2/2018 at 9:04 AM, Hooper31 said:

I guess I missed this gem when I passed through the first few times. No telling what the emotional long term effect is when your team gets jobbed by a bad call. For the record, no, I don't think that it should have been a TD.  Why on earth would anyone bother to try to justify any form of argument after reading that?

That's not the reason, and the fact that you think it is means there's no reason to continue the discussion. I like Wilson. He's a Badger. He's just not elite. He's great/good. Not elite.  

Edited by Dr. Dan

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5 hours ago, Dr. Dan said:

He's great/good.

Understood. A "great" QB might be ranked #15 in your opinion. That clears things up. 

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Will one of you Seattle homers start a period of some sort? Get Schneider(so)/Carrol to finally get this elite QB an offensive line?

Thanks.

i won't take in any part of the "elite vs non elite" argument ... because it's silly. Of course he is elite. Watch a game.

Put the truelly "elite" behind that o-line, with questionable weapons? Brady, Rodgers would be on IR.

Russ doesn't have to improvise, he does it because he has to.  

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