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ImTheScientist

***Russell Wilson Bandwagon***

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We're judging Wilson to be the best choice at QB based on a few preseason games. The coaches and players know far more than we do. I think no matter who wins the starter job, the point that the best player plays is already been made. We can't assume that that's what the players want.

:goodposting:

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You are making the BIG assumption that the players think:/would think that Wilson were the clear winner of the competition.

Only a blind old man wouldn't be able to see he was winning the competition thus far....
You've watched them practice this offseason?
Yup. I live ~20 min from VMAC.http://www.seahawks.com/team/facilities/vmac.html <-------- vmac Edited by ImTheScientist

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Does Carroll have a strong hold on the coaching job going forward?What do the Seahawks fans think of Carroll as a coach?I keep hearing many of the fans here say they love what Carroll is doing by offering up competition and giving everyone a fair shot. This is all well and good, but so far his results have yielded mixed results. Can you imagine if Carroll was coaching in one of the bigger markets and was coming off back to back sub .500 seasons. If Carroll has another losing record where will Seattle be after this year as a team? Franchise? Is Carroll then on the hot seat?

if wilson ends up winning the QB job, i think the players would love carroll even more. it will ring thru that when he says the best player (through competition) wins, he means it. if the players get behind him it will only make the team better imo. if he gets the best out of his players, he could be there for a very long time...
We're judging Wilson to be the best choice at QB based on a few preseason games. The coaches and players know far more than we do. I think no matter who wins the starter job, the point that the best player plays is already been made. We can't assume that that's what the players want.
true, i am assuming. however, it's hard not to considering we're talking about competative people, playing a competative sport (many for most of their lives), for a self described openly competative team, in the competative NFL... i think we get the point. if they don't want competition, they shouldn't and likely wouldn't be where they are today. :shrug:

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Agreed that the media 'can' be tools. I am not sure if the boys on first take are tools or not.

:confused: Well here's your problem.

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abe, how many leagues do you own flynn in?

One. He's my 3rd qb in a 24 team dynasty best ball. Brady is my starter so I'm not all that wedded to Flynn. I just wonder how it is that a guy who has done very little wrong (visibly) is being cast aside so quickly.

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Does Carroll have a strong hold on the coaching job going forward?What do the Seahawks fans think of Carroll as a coach?I keep hearing many of the fans here say they love what Carroll is doing by offering up competition and giving everyone a fair shot. This is all well and good, but so far his results have yielded mixed results. Can you imagine if Carroll was coaching in one of the bigger markets and was coming off back to back sub .500 seasons. If Carroll has another losing record where will Seattle be after this year as a team? Franchise? Is Carroll then on the hot seat?

if wilson ends up winning the QB job, i think the players would love carroll even more. it will ring thru that when he says the best player (through competition) wins, he means it. if the players get behind him it will only make the team better imo. if he gets the best out of his players, he could be there for a very long time...
We're judging Wilson to be the best choice at QB based on a few preseason games. The coaches and players know far more than we do. I think no matter who wins the starter job, the point that the best player plays is already been made. We can't assume that that's what the players want.
true, i am assuming. however, it's hard not to considering we're talking about competative people, playing a competative sport (many for most of their lives), for a self described openly competative team, in the competative NFL... i think we get the point. if they don't want competition, they shouldn't and likely wouldn't be where they are today. :shrug:
I don't see what that has to do with your comment about the locker room.

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abe, how many leagues do you own flynn in?

One. He's my 3rd qb in a 24 team dynasty best ball. Brady is my starter so I'm not all that wedded to Flynn. I just wonder how it is that a guy who has done very little wrong (visibly) is being cast aside so quickly.
Again, the visibly part is key. The minute amount we've seen of Wilson is awesome but it's with and against a completely different skill set of players. No one on this board or in the media have seen anywhere near enough of Wilson with and against first teamers to justify exhorting their opinion over Carroll's.

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abe, how many leagues do you own flynn in?

One. He's my 3rd qb in a 24 team dynasty best ball. Brady is my starter so I'm not all that wedded to Flynn. I just wonder how it is that a guy who has done very little wrong (visibly) is being cast aside so quickly.
I'm guessing you know the answer to this.If you thought Wilson gave your team a better chance to win games, would you be starting Flynn?

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Does Carroll have a strong hold on the coaching job going forward?What do the Seahawks fans think of Carroll as a coach?I keep hearing many of the fans here say they love what Carroll is doing by offering up competition and giving everyone a fair shot. This is all well and good, but so far his results have yielded mixed results. Can you imagine if Carroll was coaching in one of the bigger markets and was coming off back to back sub .500 seasons. If Carroll has another losing record where will Seattle be after this year as a team? Franchise? Is Carroll then on the hot seat?

if wilson ends up winning the QB job, i think the players would love carroll even more. it will ring thru that when he says the best player (through competition) wins, he means it. if the players get behind him it will only make the team better imo. if he gets the best out of his players, he could be there for a very long time...
We're judging Wilson to be the best choice at QB based on a few preseason games. The coaches and players know far more than we do. I think no matter who wins the starter job, the point that the best player plays is already been made. We can't assume that that's what the players want.
true, i am assuming. however, it's hard not to considering we're talking about competative people, playing a competative sport (many for most of their lives), for a self described openly competative team, in the competative NFL... i think we get the point. if they don't want competition, they shouldn't and likely wouldn't be where they are today. :shrug:
I don't see what that has to do with your comment about the locker room.
my logic in order:1. players like competition.2. coach says open competition.3. players compete.4. best player wins and gets the job.5. players like coach because best player wins and gets the job and he does what he says.

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abe, how many leagues do you own flynn in?

One. He's my 3rd qb in a 24 team dynasty best ball. Brady is my starter so I'm not all that wedded to Flynn. I just wonder how it is that a guy who has done very little wrong (visibly) is being cast aside so quickly.
I'm guessing you know the answer to this.If you thought Wilson gave your team a better chance to win games, would you be starting Flynn?
beat me to it.

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This is an interesting story to watch. If he does get the job I see someone interviewing Flutie and asking if he really had a chance.

abe, how many leagues do you own flynn in?

One. He's my 3rd qb in a 24 team dynasty best ball. Brady is my starter so I'm not all that wedded to Flynn. I just wonder how it is that a guy who has done very little wrong (visibly) is being cast aside so quickly.

Wilson hasn't even played the game yet. Is he being cast aside?

If Wilson does well maybe they'll give Flynn a shot playing all out(his plays have been conservative) to see how he does with the 1's in the last game.

Wilson has been more exciting to watch but they haven't given Flynn many dynamic plays either.

Edited by cr8f

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abe, how many leagues do you own flynn in?

One. He's my 3rd qb in a 24 team dynasty best ball. Brady is my starter so I'm not all that wedded to Flynn. I just wonder how it is that a guy who has done very little wrong (visibly) is being cast aside so quickly.
I'm guessing you know the answer to this.If you thought Wilson gave your team a better chance to win games, would you be starting Flynn?
Of course not. The player that helps you win more should play. My view is that we dont yet have enough evidence to know that Wilson is the better choice. Its not like he's competing with Kevin kolb (who i have in the same ledgue) here. Flynn has not been bad that we have seen. My feeling is that if Flynn were bad in practice then Jackson would be the guy Wilson were overtaking. Regardless, it is good that Wilson is getting a start. I expect Tennessee to blitz the heck out of him as they have been using their front seven depth all through camp to bang on the passer. It should be a real test for Wilson and despite my owning Flynn I am excited to see what happens.

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abe, how many leagues do you own flynn in?

One. He's my 3rd qb in a 24 team dynasty best ball. Brady is my starter so I'm not all that wedded to Flynn. I just wonder how it is that a guy who has done very little wrong (visibly) is being cast aside so quickly.
I'm guessing you know the answer to this.

If you thought Wilson gave your team a better chance to win games, would you be starting Flynn?

Of course not. The player that helps you win more should play. My view is that we dont yet have enough evidence to know that Wilson is the better choice. Its not like he's competing with Kevin kolb (who i have in the same ledgue) here. Flynn has not been bad that we have seen. My feeling is that if Flynn were bad in practice then Jackson would be the guy Wilson were overtaking.

Regardless, it is good that Wilson is getting a start. I expect Tennessee to blitz the heck out of him as they have been using their front seven depth all through camp to bang on the passer. It should be a real test for Wilson and despite my owning Flynn I am excited to see what happens.

That for me is the point though I do own Wilson and not Flynn.

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Does Carroll have a strong hold on the coaching job going forward?What do the Seahawks fans think of Carroll as a coach?I keep hearing many of the fans here say they love what Carroll is doing by offering up competition and giving everyone a fair shot. This is all well and good, but so far his results have yielded mixed results. Can you imagine if Carroll was coaching in one of the bigger markets and was coming off back to back sub .500 seasons. If Carroll has another losing record where will Seattle be after this year as a team? Franchise? Is Carroll then on the hot seat?

if wilson ends up winning the QB job, i think the players would love carroll even more. it will ring thru that when he says the best player (through competition) wins, he means it. if the players get behind him it will only make the team better imo. if he gets the best out of his players, he could be there for a very long time...
We're judging Wilson to be the best choice at QB based on a few preseason games. The coaches and players know far more than we do. I think no matter who wins the starter job, the point that the best player plays is already been made. We can't assume that that's what the players want.
true, i am assuming. however, it's hard not to considering we're talking about competative people, playing a competative sport (many for most of their lives), for a self described openly competative team, in the competative NFL... i think we get the point. if they don't want competition, they shouldn't and likely wouldn't be where they are today. :shrug:
I don't see what that has to do with your comment about the locker room.
my logic in order:1. players like competition.2. coach says open competition.3. players compete.4. best player wins and gets the job.5. players like coach because best player wins and gets the job and he does what he says.
Where's the part where if Flynn starts then the competition is proved false and he loses the locker room?

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This is an interesting story to watch. If he does get the job I see someone interviewing Flutie and asking if he really had a chance.

abe, how many leagues do you own flynn in?

One. He's my 3rd qb in a 24 team dynasty best ball. Brady is my starter so I'm not all that wedded to Flynn. I just wonder how it is that a guy who has done very little wrong (visibly) is being cast aside so quickly.

Wilson hasn't even played the game yet. Is he being cast aside?

If Wilson does well maybe they'll give Flynn a shot playing all out(his plays have been conservative) to see how he does with the 1's in the last game.

Wilson has been more exciting to watch but they haven't given Flynn many dynamic plays either.

Wilson has a better arm than Flutie ever did, who had no better than an average arm, though Flutie was definitely a gamer all the same. Flutie was pretty quick as well, but i doubt he was as fast as Wilson.

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abe, how many leagues do you own flynn in?

One. He's my 3rd qb in a 24 team dynasty best ball. Brady is my starter so I'm not all that wedded to Flynn. I just wonder how it is that a guy who has done very little wrong (visibly) is being cast aside so quickly.
I'm guessing you know the answer to this.

If you thought Wilson gave your team a better chance to win games, would you be starting Flynn?

Of course not. The player that helps you win more should play. My view is that we dont yet have enough evidence to know that Wilson is the better choice. Its not like he's competing with Kevin kolb (who i have in the same ledgue) here. Flynn has not been bad that we have seen. My feeling is that if Flynn were bad in practice then Jackson would be the guy Wilson were overtaking.

Regardless, it is good that Wilson is getting a start. I expect Tennessee to blitz the heck out of him as they have been using their front seven depth all through camp to bang on the passer. It should be a real test for Wilson and despite my owning Flynn I am excited to see what happens.

Kansas City?

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Of course not. The player that helps you win more should play. My view is that we dont yet have enough evidence to know that Wilson is the better choice. Its not like he's competing with Kevin kolb (who i have in the same ledgue) here. Flynn has not been bad that we have seen. My feeling is that if Flynn were bad in practice then Jackson would be the guy Wilson were overtaking. Regardless, it is good that Wilson is getting a start. I expect Tennessee to blitz the heck out of him as they have been using their front seven depth all through camp to bang on the passer. It should be a real test for Wilson and despite my owning Flynn I am excited to see what happens.

:thumbup: good posting. as wisco homer (pack & badger fan) i'm rooting for both of them. when seattle drafted wilson, i honestly didn't think there would be much of a competition this soon. i think flynn will be a successful QB in the league, but i think that wilson is going to be a better QB when it is all said and done. in my eyes, he can make all the throws flynn can but can also make plays with his legs. flynn may know more of the nuances of the NFL and the QB position at this level, but i think wilson is smart enough to pick it up on the go if he has to.

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Does Carroll have a strong hold on the coaching job going forward?What do the Seahawks fans think of Carroll as a coach?I keep hearing many of the fans here say they love what Carroll is doing by offering up competition and giving everyone a fair shot. This is all well and good, but so far his results have yielded mixed results. Can you imagine if Carroll was coaching in one of the bigger markets and was coming off back to back sub .500 seasons. If Carroll has another losing record where will Seattle be after this year as a team? Franchise? Is Carroll then on the hot seat?

if wilson ends up winning the QB job, i think the players would love carroll even more. it will ring thru that when he says the best player (through competition) wins, he means it. if the players get behind him it will only make the team better imo. if he gets the best out of his players, he could be there for a very long time...
We're judging Wilson to be the best choice at QB based on a few preseason games. The coaches and players know far more than we do. I think no matter who wins the starter job, the point that the best player plays is already been made. We can't assume that that's what the players want.
true, i am assuming. however, it's hard not to considering we're talking about competative people, playing a competative sport (many for most of their lives), for a self described openly competative team, in the competative NFL... i think we get the point. if they don't want competition, they shouldn't and likely wouldn't be where they are today. :shrug:
I don't see what that has to do with your comment about the locker room.
my logic in order:1. players like competition.2. coach says open competition.3. players compete.4. best player wins and gets the job.5. players like coach because best player wins and gets the job and he does what he says.
Where's the part where if Flynn starts then the competition is proved false and he loses the locker room?
there's that possiblity, but i was talking about wilson, not flynn. my original post started with - if wilson ends up winning the job...

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My view is that we dont yet have enough evidence to know that Wilson is the better choice.

Verbatim from Pete Carroll. This is why Wilson is starting this Friday.

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My view is that we dont yet have enough evidence to know that Wilson is the better choice.

Verbatim from Pete Carroll. This is why Wilson is starting this Friday.
He said Wilson is starting because he has been the better qb through camp? I missed that . All I saw was him saying both players have been good and he is treating this like a competition even of outsiders don't understand it. Yes, kc. :bag:

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I have a 10 team keeper coming up in an hour. This is a 2QB league. I will post where he went.

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Regardless, it is good that Wilson is getting a start. I expect Tennessee to blitz the heck out of him as they have been using their front seven depth all through camp to bang on the passer. It should be a real test for Wilson and despite my owning Flynn I am excited to see what happens.

Ya, ummm..... that game was a week ago bro.

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My view is that we dont yet have enough evidence to know that Wilson is the better choice.

Verbatim from Pete Carroll. This is why Wilson is starting this Friday.
He said Wilson is starting because he has been the better qb through camp? I missed that . All I saw was him saying both players have been good and he is treating this like a competition even of outsiders don't understand it. Yes, kc. :bag:
He has said several times that they don't have enough information to make a decision yet. They are gathering information. They don't have enough evidence. Edited by Hooper31

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I understand that the situations for RGIII and Flynn are vastly different. However, the same people who have gone wild over Wilson's performances have tempered their enthusiasm for Cousin's performances by saying they came against 2nd and 3rd stringers. Rotoworld just revealed their own typical bias, actually crediting Wilson with great numbers while working WITH 2nd and 3rd stringers. Okay....Seattle is making a huge gamble here. They have probably effectively ruined Flynn's confidence. As the boys on "First Take" just said, Carroll should have stood behind Flynn from the moment they signed him. Instead, he instantly declared an open competition. If Wilson starts, and as seems likely underachieves, Flynn is likely to be pressing constantly if they turn to him. Whatever they paid him, they appear to have just thrown money away on a player they aren't even going to let start a single game. RGIII may turn out to be great, but the hype is so far over the top it's ridiculous.

It seems like you are looking for some type of boogie man or just fishingNo one is talking about Cousins vs. RG3 because the Redskins have made it clear from the moment they traded all those draft picks that RG3 was going to be the face of their franchise. The Redskins never gave anyone the illusion that they were going to have an open QB competition. Fantasy wise that makes Cousins virtually irrelevant for the 2012 season, dynasty wise he probably a good stash option.

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Does Carroll have a strong hold on the coaching job going forward?What do the Seahawks fans think of Carroll as a coach?I keep hearing many of the fans here say they love what Carroll is doing by offering up competition and giving everyone a fair shot. This is all well and good, but so far his results have yielded mixed results. Can you imagine if Carroll was coaching in one of the bigger markets and was coming off back to back sub .500 seasons. If Carroll has another losing record where will Seattle be after this year as a team? Franchise? Is Carroll then on the hot seat?

if wilson ends up winning the QB job, i think the players would love carroll even more. it will ring thru that when he says the best player (through competition) wins, he means it. if the players get behind him it will only make the team better imo. if he gets the best out of his players, he could be there for a very long time...
We're judging Wilson to be the best choice at QB based on a few preseason games. The coaches and players know far more than we do. I think no matter who wins the starter job, the point that the best player plays is already been made. We can't assume that that's what the players want.
true, i am assuming. however, it's hard not to considering we're talking about competative people, playing a competative sport (many for most of their lives), for a self described openly competative team, in the competative NFL... i think we get the point. if they don't want competition, they shouldn't and likely wouldn't be where they are today. :shrug:
I don't see what that has to do with your comment about the locker room.
my logic in order:1. players like competition.2. coach says open competition.3. players compete.4. best player wins and gets the job.5. players like coach because best player wins and gets the job and he does what he says.
Where's the part where if Flynn starts then the competition is proved false and he loses the locker room?
there's that possiblity, but i was talking about wilson, not flynn. my original post started with - if wilson ends up winning the job...
Not sure what I'm replying to then. I thought there was a part in there about Pete losing the locker room if he didn't start Wilson. Must've misread or something from a different post. Sorry.

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I just dropped the last player on my redraft bench (Ronnie hillman) to grab him. Why not take a shot?

I'm officially on board.

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Seattle should have been on Hard Knocks, would have been a lot more interesting.

They asked. Carroll said no.

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I just dropped the last player on my redraft bench (Ronnie hillman) to grab him. Why not take a shot? I'm officially on board.

:shock: did you only have 1 QB?

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I just dropped the last player on my redraft bench (Ronnie hillman) to grab him. Why not take a shot? I'm officially on board.

:shock: did you only have 1 QB?
Nah, I have Ryan and Locker already. I doubt I would NEED Wilson, but I think he's an interesting pick that could pay off (it's a two person keeper league) if he happens to get the start. I have Mcfadden, Murray, Lynch, Rodgers at RB and Marshall, Harvin, Nicks, Stevie at WR where we only start 2/2 and a flex...so I have the depth to take a shot on the guy.It's unlikely he wins the job, but if he does, he could be a valuable trade piece. Honestly, I doubt anyone would grab Hillman off the wire anyway, and if they do, I'll just pick up Turbin instead, who is also available.

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Doug Flutie had a cannon for an arm. The only knock on him, like Wilson, was his height. Off topic, he was also an incredible all around athlete- capable of doing monster slam dunks in basketball.

I understand the Redskins gave up the farm and have to be committed to RGIII. My point was the way the preseason performances of Cousins and Wilson are being interpreted. Whether either of them should have a chance to start or not, they have both been playing against backup players.

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Again, let's ignore where RGIII was picked in the draft vs. the money Flynn was paid. The performances of Cousins and Wilson are being judged by different standards. You all appear completely enamored with what Wilson has done against scrub defenders. This is the defense we hear from RGIII groupies, regarding Cousins' performance.

Either it IS impressive to put up great stats against 2nd and 3rd teamers, or it isn't. You can't have it both ways. And I do not seriously believe for a moment that Cousins would have a chance to start over Flynn, as well as he has played, or that Wilson (or any other QB on the planet) would have a chance to start over the most hyped QB in modern history.

And what about the Shuler-Frerotte analogy? That's as close to an exact parallel as you can get. Same team. QB drafted in basically the same spot. Wildly different standards in each situation.

Noone is discrediting Cousins at all. Both Wilson and Cousins have been impressive in the preseason. By your last statement I see that you don't think too highly of RGIII. That's fine by why not start your own thread about RGIII being overhyped rather than pissing in the Russell Wilson thread?
:goodposting:

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He was always more interested in being a professional baseball player at State, and it wasn't until after a down spring/summer in baseball (which was right before his final year of eligibility of playing college football) where his dream changed to being an NFL player.

With all due respect, this is not my recollection. I recall Wilson saying repeatedly that his dream was to have opportunities to play professionally in both sports. Most people felt all along that his best chance was in baseball, but that doesn't mean that's what his focus was.I agree that if he played well in minor league baseball during the spring and summer before his year at Wisconsin, he might have taken a different path. But that has more to do with circumstances. It was not expected that the Rockies would take him in the 4th round the year they did. That created a circumstance where his professional baseball opportunity occurred a year before his professional football opportunity. Had he taken off in baseball, who knows?That said, there is no question that he has always been a much better football player than baseball player.

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What do the "first take" boys know about coaching? Would you let the media tell you how to manage your company? Carroll is doing things his way....and as a fan I appreciate that. Kolb was anointed the starter from day 1....how is that working? Failure is failure and success is success..... people are upset because Carroll spits in the face of conventional wisdom. If it works...he's a genius....if it fails then its on him. But at least he will know he did it his way and won't question himself later.

:goodposting:

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Osweiler isn't ready to play Tonorrow. He probably won't be ready by next year. But I really like guys with physical tools and no personal red flags that are given a chance to marinate in a good system. Schaub and orton come to mind in that regard. I can't stand John elway but there is something to be said for him picking osweiler and wanting to groom him.

This is an interesting choice of words. Wilson has physical tools and no personal red flags... beyond no red flags, he is off the charts on the personal/intangibles/off field side of things. Yet you seem down on him. How do you reconcile this?Or does a couple inches of height trump all other physical tools for you?

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I have a 10 team keeper coming up in an hour. This is a 2QB league. I will post where he went.

OK.

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He was always more interested in being a professional baseball player at State, and it wasn't until after a down spring/summer in baseball (which was right before his final year of eligibility of playing college football) where his dream changed to being an NFL player.

With all due respect, this is not my recollection. I recall Wilson saying repeatedly that his dream was to have opportunities to play professionally in both sports. Most people felt all along that his best chance was in baseball, but that doesn't mean that's what his focus was.I agree that if he played well in minor league baseball during the spring and summer before his year at Wisconsin, he might have taken a different path. But that has more to do with circumstances. It was not expected that the Rockies would take him in the 4th round the year they did. That created a circumstance where his professional baseball opportunity occurred a year before his professional football opportunity. Had he taken off in baseball, who knows?That said, there is no question that he has always been a much better football player than baseball player.
I remember him always being wishy washy about a career in football, but he was firm about wanting a career as a professional baseball player, and I felt he was more committed to following the baseball path while at State. I think he figured out once he played in the minor league that he was better suited for football. His athletic talents always reflected more in football, but I guess he had to not do so great in the minors to realize that. Everything worked itself out, and I look forward to him doing well in the NFL. It's nice too that TJ Graham is getting some buzz in Buffalo.

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Thanks to ITS for posting the highlights of Wilson vs Denver. What impressed me the most was that he was under duress more often than not but looked to throw as he avoided the rush rather than just pulling the ball down and taking off, an option that his athletic ability would easily afford him. For a rookie QB with legit running ability, that tells me volumes. He is a passer first, runner second...a nuance that is nearly impossible to teach at the highest level.

Downside is that he missed a few deep throws that were there. I would have loved to see him hit the one long pass to the go WR on the right side on the formation. The WR slowed slightly but Wilson didn't put into the window. However, in this instance and others, every pass that missed is nearly there, just a yd or so off. It really is amazing. I would love to see the coaches tape because it seems like he doesn't make a bad read the entire time.

Everyone is hanging on Wilson's performance as a starter, and rightly so. It's a stage. Pressure is on. Can he handle it? I admire Carroll for giving him the chance despite the FA signing of Flynn.

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Osweiler isn't ready to play Tonorrow. He probably won't be ready by next year. But I really like guys with physical tools and no personal red flags that are given a chance to marinate in a good system. Schaub and orton come to mind in that regard. I can't stand John elway but there is something to be said for him picking osweiler and wanting to groom him.

This is an interesting choice of words. Wilson has physical tools and no personal red flags... beyond no red flags, he is off the charts on the personal/intangibles/off field side of things. Yet you seem down on him. How do you reconcile this?Or does a couple inches of height trump all other physical tools for you?
It's interesting you think I am down on Wilson. I dont recall ever saying anything negative about him other than I'd like I see him do a few things I had not yet seen and that I don't believe Seattle is a great environment for development and fantasy production. I've certainly never said anything about his height. That does bring up an interesting point. Based on this thread you would think that Wilson belonged in the conversation with luck and griffin. The consensus seems to be that his height made his draft stock drop. But drew brees height made him drop as well...to the top of the second round. There is obviously something else at play with Wilson being passed over 74 times during the draft other that his height. What was it?Im not asking as if draft spot is a validation of talent. I'm genuinely curious as to why such an exciting and well rounded player fell.

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Based on this thread you would think that Wilson belonged in the conversation with luck and griffin. The consensus seems to be that his height made his draft stock drop.

Other than Scientist (who is not the most objective fan) I don't see this argument being made. Yes, there are some that are high on him, but I don't see it as a consensus that he belonged in that conversation.

I'm genuinely curious as to why such an exciting and well rounded player fell.

It may very well be that Wilson wasn't worthy of a higher pick. Or perhaps many teams missed out on a solid player.

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The consensus seems to be that his height made his draft stock drop. But drew brees height made him drop as well...to the top of the second round. There is obviously something else at play with Wilson being passed over 74 times during the draft other that his height. What was it?

An inch and a half shorter, a round and a half later?Given the wide consensus that he would have been top 10 if he was 6'2", I don't really know what else it would be. Brees was short, but not completely-unheard-of short. At 5' 10 5/8", Wilson (if he succeeds as a starting QB) really would be breaking the conventional wisdom.

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Based on this thread you would think that Wilson belonged in the conversation with luck and griffin. The consensus seems to be that his height made his draft stock drop. But drew brees height made him drop as well...to the top of the second round. There is obviously something else at play with Wilson being passed over 74 times during the draft other that his height. What was it?

I think the simple answer is bias due to his height. Here is an old post I made on Wilson:

Basically, what it comes down to with Wilson is that there is essentially no model for him.

Football Outsiders has come up with the Levin Career Forecast for college QBs, and it ranks Wilson higher than any college QB ever. It is clearly a questionable system, but that is still an interesting result. The article points out:

Quarterbacks who are Wilson's height simply don't get drafted in the first three rounds of the draft, period. The FO master database only includes three quarterbacks who are below six feet tall: Seneca Wallace, Joe Hamilton, and Flutie. That's a fourth-round pick, a seventh-round pick, and an 11th round pick from 25 years ago. Even if we go all the way back to 1991, the only quarterbacks taken in the first six rounds at 6-foot-0 or shorter were Vick, Brees, Wallace, Joe Germaine (fourth round, 1999), and Troy Smith (fifth round, 2007).

Among these players, only Vick, Brees, and Wilson were taken before the fourth round of the draft; the others were recognized to be deficient in areas other than just height. Wilson was a better college passer than any of those players, including Vick, Brees, and Flutie (Heisman does not equate to being a better passer).

Furthermore, some of these players did not play in a pro set and/or played in a run heavy offense. Not true for Wilson. And the shorter players among this group likely had lower release points than Wilson does.

On top of that, all of his intangibles are off the chart: leadership, work ethic, character, intelligence, etc. Not that these other players were necessarily bad guys or whatever, but Wilson would score 100 out of 100 on an intangibles assessment, as good as it can possibly get.

I'm not saying Wilson will be a star in the NFL. But I think the problem is that in trying to categorize him, many are failing to recognize that he is nearly unique. I think he is an intriguing dynasty player, and I'm hoping to draft him and stash him for a while.

I think the bolded is really the issue. The community in general chose to lump him into the "too short to succeed" category rather than the "we've never seen a player like this and better think carefully about rushing to judgment" category.

You ask about Brees vs. Wilson. Brees is listed at 6'0". Same for Vick. Wilson is listed as 5'11", but that's rounding... he's more like 5'10 3/4" or something like that. I literally believe it is a difference of about 2 inches in height that made the difference between Wilson being a top 10 pick and being picked where he was.

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On a board that values ADP unlike anything else, why doubt that the NFL draft functions any differently?

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Based on this thread you would think that Wilson belonged in the conversation with luck and griffin. The consensus seems to be that his height made his draft stock drop. But drew brees height made him drop as well...to the top of the second round. There is obviously something else at play with Wilson being passed over 74 times during the draft other that his height.

It was only his height .... And he should be and if starts will be in the same conversation with luck and rg3. If he starts week 1 he will win ROY.

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