Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
And I'm sure I'm not the only one who read that and called BS...
You're full of it.
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Is it ever ok to use a belt to discipline your child? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gianmarco
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You're full of it.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
How about you give us some specifics of what it took you experience to learn after you became a parent.
I am pretty sure you didnt have to become a parent to know that your children needed structure, discipline, consistency, and most importantly to know that you loved them through all of that. Now maybe you learned a little more about your children and what made them tick and of course would make adjustments accordingly, but the broad strokes of what you need to know, you don't learn from experience.
If experience was the most important factor it would mean all parents start off bad. This simply isn't true. You know as well as I do, most of the people you know that you consider to be a good parent have pretty much always been good parents.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
what do you do when beating them with a belt doesn't work -- move on to a baseball bat?saintsfan said:
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
which are the invalid ones -- yours or the other guys'?saintsfan said:
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Ask ANY parent if being a parent is complicated or complicated things in their life...after they all say yes, and look at you grinning, I want you to think about why that may be for a while.
Ask those same parents if theyre pre-kids thoughts and plans matched what actually happened. Pick the best parents you want...the answer will be the same.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
Hitting a child is wrong. Period.
But table that for a moment, and just focus on the fact that it simply does not work.
But table that for a moment, and just focus on the fact that it simply does not work.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
you just need to accept the fact that you just have no clue about the most common job on the planet, therefore, any opinion which contradicts these 2 guys is invalid and unwelcome.Apple Jack said:
their parenting books should be hitting the shelves any day, now, so you can read about it on monday.
that said, I'm pretty sure there are several millions of parents who figure out a way to parent without beating their kids, but they don't know wtf they are talking about either.
I'll figure out the reason later -- you'll just have to trust me for now.
edit: this reminds me of all the single guys who can't understand why you have to beat your wife every so often to keep them in line.
just ask the women -- most will say it was deserved, and they are better because of it.
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PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
Has anyone brought up disciplining other people's kids with a belt? Like on a plane or at a grocery? Cool or not?
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
I think it's supercool if it's somebody else doing it, 'cuz I don't want to be the one arrested for it.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Trying to argue you understand what it's like to be a parent without being one (just because you know lots of people with kids and help take care of them) is like trying to argue that you know what it's like to be married just because you're in a long-term relationship (and have lots of friends that are married).
It is NOT the same as saying that someone knows how to be a parent just because they are one. No, having a kid doesn't make you a knowledgeable parent. But trying to argue that you understand what it's like to be a parent just because you work with kids or have been around lots of people with kids is just foolish. It's a responsibility and relationship unlike any other. Ask ANY parent if they knew what it would be like before actually being one and you'll get the same answer over and over.
It is NOT the same as saying that someone knows how to be a parent just because they are one. No, having a kid doesn't make you a knowledgeable parent. But trying to argue that you understand what it's like to be a parent just because you work with kids or have been around lots of people with kids is just foolish. It's a responsibility and relationship unlike any other. Ask ANY parent if they knew what it would be like before actually being one and you'll get the same answer over and over.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Some of you guys want to give yourselves way too much credit for simply impregnating somebody. If you're a good parent, great. You should be. I've seen it and it is exhausting, never ending, stressful, difficult work. But having a child does not make you a good parent. Having a child does not mean that the guy next to you without a kid doesn't know what is better for your kid than you do. He probably doesn't, but it's not that way simply because he doesn't have one. There are some colossal freaking idiots out there raising walking disaster areas who probably think they're great parents, who jump at every opportunity to tell those without children that they just don't know. Well, yeah, of course there are some elements of that relationship that are privy only to the two people involved. That's like any relationship. Period. But when it comes to discipline, that's not a "you have to be there" thing.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Still waiting for some examples.
I would bet that most parents with a good parenting plan have stuck to it pretty well. Being consistent is pretty important for a child. If you are changing all the time, you are creating lots of your own problems.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
I figure since I went to school for 16 years, and knew a lot of teachers, that I can just be one or act as if I know how to do their job...Before I drove a car I was in them quite a bit...when it was my turn to drive it was effortlessThe fact that this needs to be explained is effing crazy...no BS...has to be trolling or people are just nuts.
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The Commish
Footballguy
I think you are mixing being a parent and being a father. Just about anyone can be a father. I doubt you will get much argument there.
The Commish
Footballguy
Dumb question....what is a "parenting plan"? 
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It's a lot easier to criticize parenting than it is to parent. When you're seeing children in a clinical setting, you get the benefit of simply walking away for a week or more at a time, followed by implementing a plan that the parents or other guardians help you implement.what?Henry Ford said:"Alright, when this kid goes home today I'm going to work on a new plan to completely revamp our relationship while I work with him the next time he comes in"The Commish said:I'm not arguing with you...just respondingI will say that there's a difference between working with kids and working with YOUR kids though. I think some might underestimate that part.
versus
"If this little ####### doesn't go to sleep soon so that I can try to get 3 hours before I get up and make him breakfast, I'm going to murder him."
When you're a parent, it's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, along with all your other jobs. You don't get the same luxuries.
The Commish
Footballguy
gotcha and I agreeIt's a lot easier to criticize parenting than it is to parent. When you're seeing children in a clinical setting, you get the benefit of simply walking away for a week or more at a time, followed by implementing a plan that the parents or other guardians help you implement.what?Henry Ford said:"Alright, when this kid goes home today I'm going to work on a new plan to completely revamp our relationship while I work with him the next time he comes in"The Commish said:I'm not arguing with you...just responding
versus
"If this little ####### doesn't go to sleep soon so that I can try to get 3 hours before I get up and make him breakfast, I'm going to murder him."
When you're a parent, it's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, along with all your other jobs. You don't get the same luxuries.
gianmarco
Footballguy
No kidding.
Just because I was in boot camp and watched Platoon, I know what it's like to be in the Armed Forces and at war in a foreign land.
Just because I'm in law school and know some lawyers, I know what it's like to actually be a lawyer.
Just because I've been in a flight simulator, I know what it's like to be a pilot and actually fly a plane.
Again, for the reading comprehension impaired, no one is saying that "impregnating someone" makes them a good parent and this has been pointed out (which, btw, is also quite offensive to those of us who actually CHOSE to be parents and may have actually had to work hard at it, but that's another story). Similarly, none of the parents posting here are trying to give themselves any extra credit. It has nothing to do with getting credit or being experts about parenting. It's simply a matter of not being able to fully comprehend what it's like to be a parent until you are one. Trying to argue otherwise is as dumb as the examples above. You may THINK you know what it's like, but you don't. It has no bearing whatsoever on what kind of parent you COULD be, but to try and argue that you are qualified to talk about what it's like to be one just because you've been around kids is like trying to teach driving school just because your dad is Jeff Gordon and you've been around cars all your life despite the fact that have never actually driven one in your life. It doesn't mean anyone behind the wheel is a good driver and it doesn't mean you can't be a good driver when you finally do start driving, but it does mean you can't appreciate what it's about until you actually do it. So just stop already.
eurotrashman
Footballguy
I've been wearing the same belt for 18 years, but don't have any kids.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Did you discuss parenting before you had a child? Did you make any decisions about how you would handle certain situations? Did you read any books? Did you take notes(mental or otherwise) of what you saw other parents do? Did you have conversations about things your own parents did with you? What worked and what didn't?Dumb question....what is a "parenting plan"?
If you did these things, you know what a parenting plan is.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
"Everyone has a parenting plan until he gets punched in the mouth."gotcha and I agreeIt's a lot easier to criticize parenting than it is to parent. When you're seeing children in a clinical setting, you get the benefit of simply walking away for a week or more at a time, followed by implementing a plan that the parents or other guardians help you implement.what?Henry Ford said:"Alright, when this kid goes home today I'm going to work on a new plan to completely revamp our relationship while I work with him the next time he comes in"The Commish said:I'm not arguing with you...just responding
versus
"If this little ####### doesn't go to sleep soon so that I can try to get 3 hours before I get up and make him breakfast, I'm going to murder him."
When you're a parent, it's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, along with all your other jobs. You don't get the same luxuries.
The Commish
Footballguy
If I'm being honest, no...I didn't. I had a few child psychology classes in college, but I've never really understood the parenting books. My wife and I had discussion about our philosophies and what we'd like to pass on to our kids, but that's about it. Trying to figure out the questions you outline above without knowing your child and their makeup seems silly to me. We both agreed that the "every child is different" approach was setting us up for our best chance of success. Thought I was missing out on something here.Did you discuss parenting before you had a child? Did you make any decisions about how you would handle certain situations? Did you read any books? Did you take notes(mental or otherwise) of what you saw other parents do? Did you have conversations about things your own parents did with you? What worked and what didn't?Dumb question....what is a "parenting plan"?
If you did these things, you know what a parenting plan is.
cstu
Footballguy
I don't know what that means either. My basic approach is behavior based. It's a lot more work than whippings though.Dumb question....what is a "parenting plan"?
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I never repeated the behavior I was spanked for. Blows a hole in your little theory.
Apple Jack
Footballguy
Are you guys deliberately disregarding the context of how this was brought up or are you just naturally dense? JFC. Good luck to those kids of yours.
Fennis
Footballguy
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
Your comments seem to be lifted from the "common fallacies" in beginning critical thinking books.
It's not my theory, it's facts based on real research.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
do we know if the people who did this study have kids of their own?
The Football Freak
Footballguy
Most people don't punish with these paticular results in mind, so if we are accepting this as a valid study, the results would show that this type of punishment doesn't work. Now, if someone was trying to spank a few mental disorders into their kid, then you would certainly have a solid point.
The Commish
Footballguy
This is actually a good place to start. Seems like folks have very different definitions of "work" here. We should probably define the end goal of the spankings. Is it to correct behavior? Accelerate the creation of mental disorders? What? Once we define that, then we can determine if it "works" or not.
nittanylion
Footballguy
I was spanked as a child. I was spanked over my pants, spanked pants down, and spanked underwear down on my bare butt. I was spanked by hand, with a spatula, with a wooden spoon (several, actually - they often broke), with a hairbrush, with a feather duster and with a belt, and with an extension cord.
I was not whipped, I was not beaten. I never bled, any redness, bruising, swelling or welts were temporary, and didn't suffer any permanent damage. I was not abused. I can honestly say every spanking I received was deserved and was the penultimate punishment after all other avenues of correction were tried and failed. It didn't happen frequently or often, and less and less as I got older. I don't think I got spanked with anything other than a hand before I was 6, and I don't think I was spanked as a teenager, so they all occurred in a window between 6 and 12. I was a precocious kid, and I'm pretty sure I was pretty well aware when I was doing something that might result in a spanking, that it might result in a spanking. I had two loving parents who loved each other for their whole lives, and loved me, their only child, unconditionally.
The spankings always followed the same pattern: I was sent to my room to wait. The waiting was the worst part, but apprehension is an OK thing for kids to feel, I think. It's something you remember, and something you don't want to repeat/something you want to avoid. Any pain I felt was trumped by shame and embarrassment, and those emotions are OK for kids to feel, too. They teach us to consider alternatives before taking courses of action based on possible alternatives and outcomes. My parents never punished in anger. The waiting was probably a cool-down period for them as well, which was/is smart parenting. They would come into the room and we would have a calm discussion about the situation, the behavior and the consequences. My parents used the socratic method to help me learn, and I'd answer the questions and figure things out for myself, as to how we found ourselves in this unfortunate position. My parents would explain to me why a spanking was appropriate punishment, and what they felt the outcome could be if I was not spanked. We'd come to a mutual understanding. It was always very calm, and matter of fact. My parents were always disappointed that that's what they had to do in those circumstances. I remember feeling disappointed in myself for letting things come to that point. Their disappointment didn't deter them from doing what they felt was necessary, though, and that taught me a lot too, about making tough choices and sticking to a correct course of action/doing the right thing without letting emotion cloud my judgement. I'd then get spanked. I'd then have some quiet time alone to cry it out in private. Later, my parents would come back to the room and we'd talk again. At the end of the conversation, I'd apologize, and we'd share hugs. I never felt anything but loved and properly corrected by my parents.
I've seen plenty of people engage in plenty of stupid in life. I've had a fun life and done plenty of adventurous/borderline crazy stuff in my time, and I've got plenty of adventurous/borderline craz/flat-out stupid friends, but I've never done anything stupid enough to get into serious trouble with the law, or that resulted in myself or others coming to harm, as many of my childhood friends have done...and believe you me, there have been plenty of opportunities that presented themselves. I just seem to have 'known better' when the opportunities presented themselves, or stopped to think before I myself went too far. I thank my parents for instilling that in me, and how they disciplined me was a big part of it.
There's more to this, but I've run out of time. I'll follow up, though, sooner or later.
I was not whipped, I was not beaten. I never bled, any redness, bruising, swelling or welts were temporary, and didn't suffer any permanent damage. I was not abused. I can honestly say every spanking I received was deserved and was the penultimate punishment after all other avenues of correction were tried and failed. It didn't happen frequently or often, and less and less as I got older. I don't think I got spanked with anything other than a hand before I was 6, and I don't think I was spanked as a teenager, so they all occurred in a window between 6 and 12. I was a precocious kid, and I'm pretty sure I was pretty well aware when I was doing something that might result in a spanking, that it might result in a spanking. I had two loving parents who loved each other for their whole lives, and loved me, their only child, unconditionally.
The spankings always followed the same pattern: I was sent to my room to wait. The waiting was the worst part, but apprehension is an OK thing for kids to feel, I think. It's something you remember, and something you don't want to repeat/something you want to avoid. Any pain I felt was trumped by shame and embarrassment, and those emotions are OK for kids to feel, too. They teach us to consider alternatives before taking courses of action based on possible alternatives and outcomes. My parents never punished in anger. The waiting was probably a cool-down period for them as well, which was/is smart parenting. They would come into the room and we would have a calm discussion about the situation, the behavior and the consequences. My parents used the socratic method to help me learn, and I'd answer the questions and figure things out for myself, as to how we found ourselves in this unfortunate position. My parents would explain to me why a spanking was appropriate punishment, and what they felt the outcome could be if I was not spanked. We'd come to a mutual understanding. It was always very calm, and matter of fact. My parents were always disappointed that that's what they had to do in those circumstances. I remember feeling disappointed in myself for letting things come to that point. Their disappointment didn't deter them from doing what they felt was necessary, though, and that taught me a lot too, about making tough choices and sticking to a correct course of action/doing the right thing without letting emotion cloud my judgement. I'd then get spanked. I'd then have some quiet time alone to cry it out in private. Later, my parents would come back to the room and we'd talk again. At the end of the conversation, I'd apologize, and we'd share hugs. I never felt anything but loved and properly corrected by my parents.
I've seen plenty of people engage in plenty of stupid in life. I've had a fun life and done plenty of adventurous/borderline crazy stuff in my time, and I've got plenty of adventurous/borderline craz/flat-out stupid friends, but I've never done anything stupid enough to get into serious trouble with the law, or that resulted in myself or others coming to harm, as many of my childhood friends have done...and believe you me, there have been plenty of opportunities that presented themselves. I just seem to have 'known better' when the opportunities presented themselves, or stopped to think before I myself went too far. I thank my parents for instilling that in me, and how they disciplined me was a big part of it.
There's more to this, but I've run out of time. I'll follow up, though, sooner or later.
Pick
Footballguy
The goal of "spanking" isn't to bring pain, at least not physically. Spanking is useful when your child can't reason. And it doesn't take much. Children cry more for the act of spanking than from any sort of pain. And once they can reason (age will vary) the usefulness of spanking is at an end and it becomes something harmful.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
How did you "get to know" your kids when they were two months old?If I'm being honest, no...I didn't. I had a few child psychology classes in college, but I've never really understood the parenting books. My wife and I had discussion about our philosophies and what we'd like to pass on to our kids, but that's about it. Trying to figure out the questions you outline above without knowing your child and their makeup seems silly to me. We both agreed that the "every child is different" approach was setting us up for our best chance of success. Thought I was missing out on something here.Did you discuss parenting before you had a child? Did you make any decisions about how you would handle certain situations? Did you read any books? Did you take notes(mental or otherwise) of what you saw other parents do? Did you have conversations about things your own parents did with you? What worked and what didn't?Dumb question....what is a "parenting plan"?
If you did these things, you know what a parenting plan is.
Did you wait until they were old enough to talk before you started giving them any structure?
Did you wait until you could have lengthy conversations with them before deciding on a bedtime?
Did you ask them if it was ok to not put a TV in their room?
Do you let them decide how long they can play video games?
You would have had to make plenty of decisions about parenting before you knew much about your child. I firmly believe a parent should be involved in what kind of person their children become. They shouldn't wait and see, and then maybe get involved.
The crowd that believes parenting is only learned by experience seems odd to me. Basically you are saying trial and error is ok for kids.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
The Football Freak
Footballguy
That analogy doesn't apply. This study attributes around 5% of Axis I and II disorders to this kind of punishment. 5% of drivers don't die in car accidents once they choose to drive. The study points to a conclusion that physical punishment is linked to mental disorders in adults. Of course, you may discount their findings because you find their methods, conclusions or research faulty, but your original statement is at ends with the results.
CurlyNight
Footballguy
Hell no. You get what you put out there. In other words, kids look at you for what's ok behavior. The best thing to do is from the time they start forming words and start 'talking' you talk to them in kiddy understandable language what they did and why it's wrong. If it goes on then time outs are the best or you take away something dear to them for a period of time. If something is really wrong and they should know better but keep doing it to egg you on or something then maybe a little spank in the butt. I never could understand how 'violent' physical or yelling behavior is supposed to be understood by the kid. All it does is invoke fear. This could lead to the kid growing up having more fear than is normal to have in all kinds of situations. You can really mess up your kid by reacting to them like that. They need to understand what they did is wrong but yelling or hitting won't get them to understand, only to not do it out of fear, not out of understanding why it's wrong. I've seen folks explain to their 2 year olds why something is wrong. They may not get it at that age, but it sinks in. My cousin's kid is 3 and he will all of the sudden tell me why something he did is wrong! It sinks in, just keep talking to them and quit with the fear based discipline which does nothing but instill fear, more fear. We all have fear as adults no matter how we're raised but let's not make it worse on someone by having parents be seen as someone to fear..
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Fennis
Footballguy
nittanylion
Footballguy
I think you probably would - it was the stick end, not the feather end. Wood. Rather like an English cane. Hurt like hell, but, again, I absolutely deserved it. Tested out my Mom's diamond earrings for authenticity on her vanity mirror. Fun times.
cstu
Footballguy
The Football Freak
Footballguy
Well, yeah, they are tying around 5% of these disorders to physical punishment. Not everyone comes to their mental disorder from the same set of circumstances. And around 10-15% of the population has these disorders. We're talking about a lot of people. When this kind of punishment leads to hundreds of thousands of mental disorders, then you can't really point to the study pointing out these figures and say it doesn't call into question its efficacy. Again, that doesn't follow. If you disagree with the study, that's fine, but what you stated is at ends with the study.
Kool-Aid Larry
Footballguy
this is just an observayion, not meant as any kind of dig at your masculinity, but you realize most women who get abused by husbands and boyfriends say the exact same thing?
a lot of people in this thread saying they were beaten and turned out just fine, but I'd say if you think nothing of beating your kid then maybe you didn't turn out so fine.
no offense
nittanylion
Footballguy
Ah...no. I got a lot of culture and education as a kid. I was old enough and smart enough to know better, already knew darn well her diamonds were the real thing, knew what would happen to glass scratched by real diamonds, and there was plenty of glass around the house I could have satisfied my curiosity with rather than the geometric center of a 3' X 3' mirror centerpiece of my Mom's dressing room/parlor where she held afternoon tea and entertained her lady friends. It was a dumb, unwise and thoughtless move on all counts by me. Thanks for the hyperbole, though.
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