WR Josh Gordon, KC (3 Viewers)

'Mr.Underhill said:

'Bracie Smathers said:

Wiki says he's 21 but that is still very young. So the film is fromm when he was 19, still very young and far from filling out his frame.

Albert Breer from NFL.com has an article with some quotes from around the league on Gordon.

My link

... There's a wide range of opinion on how good Gordon can be

... "It's very hard to find a comparable player," an AFC personnel executive said. "The off-field issues, you try and draw on those players like that who have turned into huge successes, and having those examples tends to give executives some peace of mind. I struggled to come up with a high volume of players that have had his amount of issues and done a 180. We'll see. The rest of it is up to the kid."

... According to sources with four NFL clubs, Gordon failed three drug tests as a collegian. The first two came at Baylor. The latter, according to these sources, came after charges were dropped in his marijuana-related arrest of 2010, and that led to his dismissal from the Baptist school, which has a reputation for being tough on drugs. That led to his transfer to Utah, where he failed another drug test. (I've only heard three failed drug tests, not four. Breer says two came in 2010 and lead to his suspension and then he failed again and left Baylor, that adds to three but he then says their was another failed drug test and I have not heard this from any other source. I've heard he agreed to bi-weekly drug tests and passed them all at Utah and we know he passed a random test prior to his Pro Day and he has also reported he's been in weekly therapy sessions. )

... "It's just something where you say, 'Hey man, put [the marijuana] down'," said an NFC personnel director. "You never know which way they'll go when they get here. It's hard to know how important football is, and how important weed is to the kid. And the environment he goes into is important too. Then, it's how they mature through the process you put them through." (I get the concern and agree to a point about adverse effects on production for an athelete but Moss and others have shown they can produce no matter what they do off the field. I've got zero moral issues with that sort of personal decision but if it effects performance or ability to learn his craft then its not a personal decision when it effets others so it is a concern along those lines for me so we shall see.

... "I talked to a zillion guys at both Baylor and Utah," Browns GM Tom Heckert said on a conference call with the Cleveland media. "To be honest with you, I couldn't find anybody to say one bad thing about the kid. I really enjoyed meeting with him. It's something that is out there that we have done our homework on. To say we're 100 percent, we're not 100 percent on anybody in the draft, but we felt good enough that he's going to be a positive influence on our team."

... "Take the background stuff out of it, let's talk about the player and his talent. He plays at just under 6-4 and at 220, that's hard to find, and does play with legit speed," an AFC college scout said. "I know he ran 4.52, but he plays like a 4.40 guy. … The issue is those Baylor guys are tough, there's no playbook, there's a lot of route conversions. He's gonna be starting over from a fundamental standpoint. He doesn't know how to run routes, and he has some natural tightness."

... "I think all that stuff is fixable," the NFC personnel director said. "Some things he does better than (Justin) Blackmon. He plays faster than Blackmon, has a similar body type. He has better body control and is a more fluid athlete. The difference is, Blackmon's finished product. Think of it this way, say you get 20 reps running a specific route at game speed, and add it up. Think of many reps he missed. That's how far behind he is. And then you have to think of how far he can go."

Asked if he stacks up with Blackmon or Michael Floyd, the 2012 draft's top two receivers, the NFC personnel man answered, "Physically, yes." And posed with the same question, the AFC personnel director said, "Floyd's a bit faster than him, he has similar speed to Blackmon. Both guys, Floyd and Blackmon, at this point, are better route runners than he is. And that's probably it. But yes, there are some common traits."

... The Cleveland Browns bought that Gordon has grown up. But only time will tell whether or not that's truly the case. That part is up to him.

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He is young, raw, but he's got rare physical skills and a history of smoking pot.The Browns feel he checks out characer-wise but from all acconts he is at least a year away from making an impact. He's behind after missing mini camps and OTAs. He's going to get his first NFL playbook after not having one at Baylor and he's got tons of work to do in getting reps and getting any sort of chemistry goiong with Weeden.

Don't expect much this year from him but I do think he'll take Mo-Massaquoi's job by the end of this season.

If you check out other rookie WRs and look at the production they have their rookie year and compare it to the second/third seasons you see the 'general trend' is they don't do much, if anything, the first part of their rookie year but get a shot and start to produce at the end of that year and carry it forward.

So if he struggles or doesn't break into the starting line-up he could probably come cheaper at some point this year. Right now the hype is probably driving his price up but uncertainty about his skills could pop-up if he doesn't get a shot or if he struggles. That would be the time to get him at a cheaper price but I wouldn't expect a return on investment until next year.

I get the pick and I also get that his best shot to make an impact is next year.

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But does he really have rare physical skills? Seriously. People act like 6'3" is rare. It isn't anymore. Over 6' WR's are the norm now. Look at the combine numbers and see how many guys come into the league at this height, weight, speed. Look at the vertical and long jump numbers.I can't speak to game film, but in every measurable EXCEPT his hand measurements (didn't see a wingspan measurement), he's actually not that rare. Nor is the combination that rare. Yet the name Randy Moss gets thrown out there? Go back and look at the scouting reports on M.Sanu and tell me where Gordon comes in as rare. Are there anonymous NFC and AFC front office people comparing Sanu to Randy Moss and Brandon Marshall? Are people missing that he's no bigger or faster (albeit in timed 40) than Greg Little and Little had a better vertical and long jump? Does Little qualify as "rare"?

It sounds as if I am arguing him down. I don't mean to. But there seems to be some hyperbole involved here and I start to get a bit suspicious when the sources are still anonymous after the guy gets drafted. He's already been drafted so why comment anonymously?

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'Mr.Underhill said:

But does he really have rare physical skills? Seriously. People act like 6'3" is rare. It isn't anymore. Over 6' WR's are the norm now. Look at the combine numbers and see how many guys come into the league at this height, weight, speed. Look at the vertical and long jump numbers.

I can't speak to game film, but in every measurable EXCEPT his hand measurements (didn't see a wingspan measurement), he's actually not that rare. Nor is the combination that rare. Yet the name Randy Moss gets thrown out there? Go back and look at the scouting reports on M.Sanu and tell me where Gordon comes in as rare. Are there anonymous NFC and AFC front office people comparing Sanu to Randy Moss and Brandon Marshall? Are people missing that he's no bigger or faster (albeit in timed 40) than Greg Little and Little had a better vertical and long jump? Does Little qualify as "rare"?

It sounds as if I am arguing him down. I don't mean to. But there seems to be some hyperbole involved here and I start to get a bit suspicious when the sources are still anonymous after the guy gets drafted. He's already been drafted so why comment anonymously?

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New England didn't turn around Chad Ocho Cinco so their seems to be a misconception about Cleveland's ability to take rookies who had issues in college and turn them into productive players. The immediate track record in Cleveland is actually pretty good for evaluating college rookies who had issues and then having them produce without issues in the NFL.

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Actually, I think they did. Didn't he take the year off from tweeting or somesuch? They can't fix eroding physical ability or the inability to learn a playbook. But then again, maybe Miami will return the Welker favor.

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'Mr.Underhill said:

But does he really have rare physical skills? Seriously. People act like 6'3" is rare. It isn't anymore. Over 6' WR's are the norm now. Look at the combine numbers and see how many guys come into the league at this height, weight, speed. Look at the vertical and long jump numbers.I can't speak to game film, but in every measurable EXCEPT his hand measurements (didn't see a wingspan measurement), he's actually not that rare. Nor is the combination that rare. Yet the name Randy Moss gets thrown out there? Go back and look at the scouting reports on M.Sanu and tell me where Gordon comes in as rare. Are there anonymous NFC and AFC front office people comparing Sanu to Randy Moss and Brandon Marshall? Are people missing that he's no bigger or faster (albeit in timed 40) than Greg Little and Little had a better vertical and long jump? Does Little qualify as "rare"?It sounds as if I am arguing him down. I don't mean to. But there seems to be some hyperbole involved here and I start to get a bit suspicious when the sources are still anonymous after the guy gets drafted. He's already been drafted so why comment anonymously?

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'Mr.Underhill said:

'Bracie Smathers said:

Wiki says he's 21 but that is still very young. So the film is fromm when he was 19, still very young and far from filling out his frame.

Albert Breer from NFL.com has an article with some quotes from around the league on Gordon.

My link

... There's a wide range of opinion on how good Gordon can be

... "It's very hard to find a comparable player," an AFC personnel executive said. "The off-field issues, you try and draw on those players like that who have turned into huge successes, and having those examples tends to give executives some peace of mind. I struggled to come up with a high volume of players that have had his amount of issues and done a 180. We'll see. The rest of it is up to the kid."

... According to sources with four NFL clubs, Gordon failed three drug tests as a collegian. The first two came at Baylor. The latter, according to these sources, came after charges were dropped in his marijuana-related arrest of 2010, and that led to his dismissal from the Baptist school, which has a reputation for being tough on drugs. That led to his transfer to Utah, where he failed another drug test. (I've only heard three failed drug tests, not four. Breer says two came in 2010 and lead to his suspension and then he failed again and left Baylor, that adds to three but he then says their was another failed drug test and I have not heard this from any other source. I've heard he agreed to bi-weekly drug tests and passed them all at Utah and we know he passed a random test prior to his Pro Day and he has also reported he's been in weekly therapy sessions. )

... "It's just something where you say, 'Hey man, put [the marijuana] down'," said an NFC personnel director. "You never know which way they'll go when they get here. It's hard to know how important football is, and how important weed is to the kid. And the environment he goes into is important too. Then, it's how they mature through the process you put them through." (I get the concern and agree to a point about adverse effects on production for an athelete but Moss and others have shown they can produce no matter what they do off the field. I've got zero moral issues with that sort of personal decision but if it effects performance or ability to learn his craft then its not a personal decision when it effets others so it is a concern along those lines for me so we shall see.

... "I talked to a zillion guys at both Baylor and Utah," Browns GM Tom Heckert said on a conference call with the Cleveland media. "To be honest with you, I couldn't find anybody to say one bad thing about the kid. I really enjoyed meeting with him. It's something that is out there that we have done our homework on. To say we're 100 percent, we're not 100 percent on anybody in the draft, but we felt good enough that he's going to be a positive influence on our team."

... "Take the background stuff out of it, let's talk about the player and his talent. He plays at just under 6-4 and at 220, that's hard to find, and does play with legit speed," an AFC college scout said. "I know he ran 4.52, but he plays like a 4.40 guy. … The issue is those Baylor guys are tough, there's no playbook, there's a lot of route conversions. He's gonna be starting over from a fundamental standpoint. He doesn't know how to run routes, and he has some natural tightness."

... "I think all that stuff is fixable," the NFC personnel director said. "Some things he does better than (Justin) Blackmon. He plays faster than Blackmon, has a similar body type. He has better body control and is a more fluid athlete. The difference is, Blackmon's finished product. Think of it this way, say you get 20 reps running a specific route at game speed, and add it up. Think of many reps he missed. That's how far behind he is. And then you have to think of how far he can go."

Asked if he stacks up with Blackmon or Michael Floyd, the 2012 draft's top two receivers, the NFC personnel man answered, "Physically, yes." And posed with the same question, the AFC personnel director said, "Floyd's a bit faster than him, he has similar speed to Blackmon. Both guys, Floyd and Blackmon, at this point, are better route runners than he is. And that's probably it. But yes, there are some common traits."

... The Cleveland Browns bought that Gordon has grown up. But only time will tell whether or not that's truly the case. That part is up to him.

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He is young, raw, but he's got rare physical skills and a history of smoking pot.The Browns feel he checks out characer-wise but from all acconts he is at least a year away from making an impact. He's behind after missing mini camps and OTAs. He's going to get his first NFL playbook after not having one at Baylor and he's got tons of work to do in getting reps and getting any sort of chemistry goiong with Weeden.

Don't expect much this year from him but I do think he'll take Mo-Massaquoi's job by the end of this season.

If you check out other rookie WRs and look at the production they have their rookie year and compare it to the second/third seasons you see the 'general trend' is they don't do much, if anything, the first part of their rookie year but get a shot and start to produce at the end of that year and carry it forward.

So if he struggles or doesn't break into the starting line-up he could probably come cheaper at some point this year. Right now the hype is probably driving his price up but uncertainty about his skills could pop-up if he doesn't get a shot or if he struggles. That would be the time to get him at a cheaper price but I wouldn't expect a return on investment until next year.

I get the pick and I also get that his best shot to make an impact is next year.

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But does he really have rare physical skills? Seriously. People act like 6'3" is rare. It isn't anymore. Over 6' WR's are the norm now. Look at the combine numbers and see how many guys come into the league at this height, weight, speed. Look at the vertical and long jump numbers.I can't speak to game film, but in every measurable EXCEPT his hand measurements (didn't see a wingspan measurement), he's actually not that rare. Nor is the combination that rare. Yet the name Randy Moss gets thrown out there? Go back and look at the scouting reports on M.Sanu and tell me where Gordon comes in as rare. Are there anonymous NFC and AFC front office people comparing Sanu to Randy Moss and Brandon Marshall? Are people missing that he's no bigger or faster (albeit in timed 40) than Greg Little and Little had a better vertical and long jump? Does Little qualify as "rare"?

It sounds as if I am arguing him down. I don't mean to. But there seems to be some hyperbole involved here and I start to get a bit suspicious when the sources are still anonymous after the guy gets drafted. He's already been drafted so why comment anonymously?

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'Shutout said:

I think the thing you have to take under consideration along with the reported stats is just really watching him when he played (and I know, he has less to watch than some). But sometimes you see these guys and it makes sense.He has the size and he ahs the smarts and he has the hands. And he's not the fastest 40-timed guy. You know who that sounds like? a 2004 Larry fitzgerald. Of course, I'm not saying they are in the same mold, but sometimes guys play faster than their 40 times and those other attributes like really good hands or extrordinary wingspan help give them advantages. Those things ARE rare and the reason they aren't talked up more for a young player is because they ARE rare and there's not much to compare to. Once we see in IN THE LEAGUE, its easy to say "that's why Nicks is a good target" or "that's why Welker is hard to cover" but because its not a common commodity, people don't stew on it.

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'Mr.Underhill said:

How about Tommy Streeter?6'4" height.219 lbs.33" vertical.125" broad jump.17 bench reps.4.40 in the 40.34.6" arm length.9.4" hands.The funny thing about Streeter, who is only giving a few pounds and less than an inch in hand size up to Gordon while smoking Gordon's 40 time and being taller, is that scouts wonder if Streeter is a one year wonder. Hmm. He has great length and high points well. His weaknesses are being raw and not using good technique to get off the line cleanly. Sound familiar? Streeter was a 6th round pick this year.Isn't it possible we are judging Gordon in a vacuum right now and he's therefore looking more impressive than he would if he was being poked and prodded alongside the rest of the 2012 WR raft class?

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'Mr.Underhill said:

I get that his 40 time may be faster had he prepped as much as the spring draft guys do. And I understand and accept that some guys play faster than they measure. But let's also keep in mind that announcing his decision to declare for the supplemental draft isn't the same as him deciding that morning to declare. If he's so smart, and I assume he is, isn't it possible he was more prepped for his pro day than we think? He may have gambled that he'd get this benefit of the doubt. If we know that guys manipulate the system to mask weaknesses, which Bracie states and which I agree with, why are we swallowing all of his narrative so hook, line and sinker?Also, is training for the combine going to add 4 inches to your vertical and almost a foot to your long jump? Technique is one thing. But let's not act like he was some kid who just walked into his pro day having not done a thing for more than a year. He was on a team and practicing last year even if he wasn't game eligible, right? And he could have been planning and working towards the draft for some time but waited to announce for strategic purposes...perhaps to compress the time clubs would have to investigate him or to bolster the spin that he would have tested better had he more time to prepare.Bracie's point about front office tampering makes sense, BTW. I hadn't considered that angle. So that would explain the anonymous comments.Again, I'm not saying you should be betting against him. I'm just trying to divine the truth, at least as much as we can do so in these situations.

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Here are game tape observations on M.Sanu I pulled up:Too big and strong for most defenders.A threat to beat the defender over the top.Good acceleration and good, but not elite, speed.Eats up the cushion.Outstanding hand eye coordination.Impressive body control and awareness.Very reliable hands and a wide catch radius due to his long arms.Strong leaping skills.Quick burst off the line.Exciting blend of size, strength and natural running skills.Good strength and very good effort blocking.Sanu measured: 6'2" height. (Gordon is 6'3")211 lbs. (Gordon is 224)36" vertical. (Matches Gordon)126" broad jump. (Betters Gordon by 5")19 bench reps. (Betters Gordon by 6 reps)4.67 in the 40. (Worse by 0.15, which isn't insignificant)33.4" arm length (Essentially matches Gordon's 33.33" arms)10.1" hands (essentially matches Gordon's 10" hands)How about Randle?Big, strong and athletic.Good strength and burst.Smooth accelerator who can get behind the defense.Strong hands. Long arms and big hands.Has the speed to beat defenders deep.Good body control.Good flexibility to extend and pluck passes.Takes pride in his role as blocker.Randle's measurables?6'3" height (same)210 lbs. (Gordon is heavier)31" vertical (Gordon better by 5", but then Little is better than Gordon, remember)121" broad jump (matches Gordon)15 bench reps (better than Gordon by 2)4.55 in the 40. (0.02 slower...than a pro day time)33" arm length. (1/3 of an inch shorter than Gordon)9.4" hands. (0.6 inches smaller than Gordon)Criner's measurables?6'2" height (shorter than Gordon)224 lbs. (same weight)38" vertical (2" better than Gordon)117" broad jump (4" worse than Gordon)17 bench reps (4 more reps than Gordon)4.68 in the 40. (0.16 slower, again, not insignificant)32" arm length. (1.33" shorter than Gordon)10.4" hands. (0.4" larger than Gordon)We see with Criner similar reference to his size, hands, strength and athleticism, and his speed is described as "deceptive". In my mind "deceptive" translates to better game speed than timed speed.How about Tommy Streeter?6'4" height. (Taller than Gordon)219 lbs. (giving up 5 lbs to Gordon)33" vertical. (3" worse than Gordon)125" broad jump. (4" better than Gordon)17 bench reps. (4 reps better than Gordon)4.40 in the 40. (Ran 0.12 faster than Gordon's pro day speed)34.6" arm length. (1.6" longer than Gordon)9.4" hands. (giving up 0.6" to Gordon)The funny thing about Streeter, who is only giving a few pounds and less than an inch in hand size up to Gordon while smoking Gordon's 40 time and being taller, is that scouts wonder if Streeter is a one year wonder. Hmm. He has great length and high points well. His weaknesses are being raw and not using good technique to get off the line cleanly. Sound familiar? Streeter was a 6th round pick this year.Isn't it possible we are judging Gordon in a vacuum right now and he's therefore looking more impressive than he would if he was being poked and prodded alongside the rest of the 2012 WR raft class?

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'Bracie Smathers said:

Cleveland used its first round pick in 2011 on DT Phil Taylor. Cleveland was seriously looking into taking Baylor QB RG III and was willing to pay three first round draft picks and its high second round draft pick this year but missed out. We know from reports that the Browns were set to take Baylor WR Kendall Wright with its 22nd pick in the first round but missed out. Now the Browns have taken former Baylor WR Josh Gordon and made the only second round bid on him. What does this say about Cleveland's scouting department inside Baylor?It says they have a trusted source inside Baylor and they've invested high picks and would have invested other high picks on players from Baylor indicating they would have bet all of thier highest picks on word from that source.

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'Bracie Smathers said:

'Mr.Underhill said:

I get that his 40 time may be faster had he prepped as much as the spring draft guys do. And I understand and accept that some guys play faster than they measure. But let's also keep in mind that announcing his decision to declare for the supplemental draft isn't the same as him deciding that morning to declare. If he's so smart, and I assume he is, isn't it possible he was more prepped for his pro day than we think? He may have gambled that he'd get this benefit of the doubt. If we know that guys manipulate the system to mask weaknesses, which Bracie states and which I agree with, why are we swallowing all of his narrative so hook, line and sinker?

Also, is training for the combine going to add 4 inches to your vertical and almost a foot to your long jump? Technique is one thing. But let's not act like he was some kid who just walked into his pro day having not done a thing for more than a year. He was on a team and practicing last year even if he wasn't game eligible, right? And he could have been planning and working towards the draft for some time but waited to announce for strategic purposes...perhaps to compress the time clubs would have to investigate him or to bolster the spin that he would have tested better had he more time to prepare.

Bracie's point about front office tampering makes sense, BTW. I hadn't considered that angle. So that would explain the anonymous comments.

Again, I'm not saying you should be betting against him. I'm just trying to divine the truth, at least as much as we can do so in these situations.

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Measureables are tools for scouts. They gather accurate raw numbers and plug them into a metric and only a few guys come out the other side labeled as having 'rare' physical skills. Basic stats, mean is average. One standard deviation away from the mean is a significant statistical measurement, two standard deviations stumbles into 'rare' teritory, three standard deviations is the outliner and goes into uncharted areas.

When one scout or a coach or a reporter says something it doesn't automatically ping on my radar. Schefter is one of the guys I have learned to listen to whenever he reports on something. He's very careful and doesn't make these sorts of reports without fact checking. Schefter wasn't the first or only one coming up with NFL scouting sources saying Gordon has 'rare' physical skills.

You are 100% correct, Gordon was practicing with a team for an entire year and even if he made the decision to declare for the supplemental draft on June 29 he wasn't sitting around eating Cheeteos and Ding Dongs watching Oprah. You zero in on things connected to core strength. Core strength is another term that the scouting crowd uses to describe a mass of muscle/strength connected to strength which helps all of the things you point out as weakness' with Gordon, verticle, broad, bench, etc. All of those measurables are connected to what is simply called 'core' strength or just 'core'. WRs who have great 'core' strength in addition to having size and speed etc obviously have an edge but the only real advantage for a WR in connection to 'core' strength is verticle rise.

Vert is based off of explosion and is essential for NBA guys and helps quite a bit for WRs going up for balls.

OK, NOW this is where Gordon's exceptional span and arm length come into play.

The best way to explain this is with an anology but to really 'get it' I'll have to greatly exaggerate so stay with me. Consider if you stand on your tip-toes to reach up on a high ktichen shelf for a glass but its just out of reach. Now consider if your feet grew by one foot in length and NOW you stand up on your tip-toes to reach for that glass, what is the outcome?

Ahhhhhh, yes. That is the COMBINED advantage of, hieght, span, AND arm length. It more than cancels out vert because when a WR goes up to battle a DB for a jump ball they BOTH have to set their feet and gain position even before anything happens. With longer arms than average and a much longer span than average and already being over 6'3 with under estimated speed he has 'rare' physical gifts and the tape shows he naturally knows how to use his gifts.

Here are game tape observations on M.Sanu I pulled up:

Too big and strong for most defenders.

A threat to beat the defender over the top.

Good acceleration and good, but not elite, speed.

Eats up the cushion.

Outstanding hand eye coordination.

Impressive body control and awareness.

Very reliable hands and a wide catch radius due to his long arms.

Strong leaping skills.

Quick burst off the line.

Exciting blend of size, strength and natural running skills.

Good strength and very good effort blocking.

Sanu measured:

6'2" height. (Gordon is 6'3")

211 lbs. (Gordon is 224)

36" vertical. (Matches Gordon)

126" broad jump. (Betters Gordon by 5")

19 bench reps. (Betters Gordon by 6 reps)

4.67 in the 40. (Worse by 0.15, which isn't insignificant)

33.4" arm length (Essentially matches Gordon's 33.33" arms)

10.1" hands (essentially matches Gordon's 10" hands)

How about Randle?

Big, strong and athletic.

Good strength and burst.

Smooth accelerator who can get behind the defense.

Strong hands.

Long arms and big hands.

Has the speed to beat defenders deep.

Good body control.

Good flexibility to extend and pluck passes.

Takes pride in his role as blocker.

Randle's measurables?

6'3" height (same)

210 lbs. (Gordon is heavier)

31" vertical (Gordon better by 5", but then Little is better than Gordon, remember)

121" broad jump (matches Gordon)

15 bench reps (better than Gordon by 2)

4.55 in the 40. (0.02 slower...than a pro day time)

33" arm length. (1/3 of an inch shorter than Gordon)

9.4" hands. (0.6 inches smaller than Gordon)

Criner's measurables?

6'2" height (shorter than Gordon)

224 lbs. (same weight)

38" vertical (2" better than Gordon)

117" broad jump (4" worse than Gordon)

17 bench reps (4 more reps than Gordon)

4.68 in the 40. (0.16 slower, again, not insignificant)

32" arm length. (1.33" shorter than Gordon)

10.4" hands. (0.4" larger than Gordon)

We see with Criner similar reference to his size, hands, strength and athleticism, and his speed is described as "deceptive". In my mind "deceptive" translates to better game speed than timed speed.

How about Tommy Streeter?

6'4" height. (Taller than Gordon)

219 lbs. (giving up 5 lbs to Gordon)

33" vertical. (3" worse than Gordon)

125" broad jump. (4" better than Gordon)

17 bench reps. (4 reps better than Gordon)

4.40 in the 40. (Ran 0.12 faster than Gordon's pro day speed)

34.6" arm length. (1.6" longer than Gordon)

9.4" hands. (giving up 0.6" to Gordon)

The funny thing about Streeter, who is only giving a few pounds and less than an inch in hand size up to Gordon while smoking Gordon's 40 time and being taller, is that scouts wonder if Streeter is a one year wonder. Hmm. He has great length and high points well. His weaknesses are being raw and not using good technique to get off the line cleanly. Sound familiar? Streeter was a 6th round pick this year.

Isn't it possible we are judging Gordon in a vacuum right now and he's therefore looking more impressive than he would if he was being poked and prodded alongside the rest of the 2012 WR raft class?

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You are right once again, ALL of those guys went into the draft process but none of them were considered to have 'rare' physical skills. They possess some things better/worse than Gordon but the key is they went thru the draft process.Its not a mistake that those guys did not go higher in the draft. Gordon only had one team put a second round bid on him, Cleveland. The scouting community did weigh in and they said he has 'rare' physical skills.

You mentioned Gordon played his hand close to his vest and declared late in the game so people wouldn't poke around too much on his background, possibly but consider this.

Cleveland used its first round pick in 2011 on DT Phil Taylor. Cleveland was seriously looking into taking Baylor QB RG III and was willing to pay three first round draft picks and its high second round draft pick this year but missed out. We know from reports that the Browns were set to take Baylor WR Kendall Wright with its 22nd pick in the first round but missed out. Now the Browns have taken former Baylor WR Josh Gordon and made the only second round bid on him. What does this say about Cleveland's scouting department inside Baylor?

It says they have a trusted source inside Baylor and they've invested high picks and would have invested other high picks on players from Baylor indicating they would have bet all of thier highest picks on word from that source.

So they may have paid a higher price than other teams would have but they did not make a blind bet, they bet on a trusted source that Gordon has overcome his 'issue' with pot and the scouting community has said he has 'rare' physical skills so I see him as a guy with 'rare' physical skills going into a very advantageous situation to produce earlier rather than later and the path is paved for him to turn into a legit #1 WR long term.

The gamble is whether or not he'll do the work to turn into a #1 WR but consider how hard he worked to overcome his 'issue' AND that he worked and practiced with a team for an entire year knowing he'd never play a down. That shows commitment so I think the Browns made a good gamble and I'm willing to make the same gamble if he falls in my rookie draft.

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'Mr.Underhill said:

'Bracie Smathers said:

'Mr.Underhill said:

I get that his 40 time may be faster had he prepped as much as the spring draft guys do. And I understand and accept that some guys play faster than they measure. But let's also keep in mind that announcing his decision to declare for the supplemental draft isn't the same as him deciding that morning to declare. If he's so smart, and I assume he is, isn't it possible he was more prepped for his pro day than we think? He may have gambled that he'd get this benefit of the doubt. If we know that guys manipulate the system to mask weaknesses, which Bracie states and which I agree with, why are we swallowing all of his narrative so hook, line and sinker?

Also, is training for the combine going to add 4 inches to your vertical and almost a foot to your long jump? Technique is one thing. But let's not act like he was some kid who just walked into his pro day having not done a thing for more than a year. He was on a team and practicing last year even if he wasn't game eligible, right? And he could have been planning and working towards the draft for some time but waited to announce for strategic purposes...perhaps to compress the time clubs would have to investigate him or to bolster the spin that he would have tested better had he more time to prepare.

Bracie's point about front office tampering makes sense, BTW. I hadn't considered that angle. So that would explain the anonymous comments.

Again, I'm not saying you should be betting against him. I'm just trying to divine the truth, at least as much as we can do so in these situations.

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Measureables are tools for scouts. They gather accurate raw numbers and plug them into a metric and only a few guys come out the other side labeled as having 'rare' physical skills. Basic stats, mean is average. One standard deviation away from the mean is a significant statistical measurement, two standard deviations stumbles into 'rare' teritory, three standard deviations is the outliner and goes into uncharted areas.

When one scout or a coach or a reporter says something it doesn't automatically ping on my radar. Schefter is one of the guys I have learned to listen to whenever he reports on something. He's very careful and doesn't make these sorts of reports without fact checking. Schefter wasn't the first or only one coming up with NFL scouting sources saying Gordon has 'rare' physical skills.

You are 100% correct, Gordon was practicing with a team for an entire year and even if he made the decision to declare for the supplemental draft on June 29 he wasn't sitting around eating Cheeteos and Ding Dongs watching Oprah. You zero in on things connected to core strength. Core strength is another term that the scouting crowd uses to describe a mass of muscle/strength connected to strength which helps all of the things you point out as weakness' with Gordon, verticle, broad, bench, etc. All of those measurables are connected to what is simply called 'core' strength or just 'core'. WRs who have great 'core' strength in addition to having size and speed etc obviously have an edge but the only real advantage for a WR in connection to 'core' strength is verticle rise.

Vert is based off of explosion and is essential for NBA guys and helps quite a bit for WRs going up for balls.

OK, NOW this is where Gordon's exceptional span and arm length come into play.

The best way to explain this is with an anology but to really 'get it' I'll have to greatly exaggerate so stay with me. Consider if you stand on your tip-toes to reach up on a high ktichen shelf for a glass but its just out of reach. Now consider if your feet grew by one foot in length and NOW you stand up on your tip-toes to reach for that glass, what is the outcome?

Ahhhhhh, yes. That is the COMBINED advantage of, hieght, span, AND arm length. It more than cancels out vert because when a WR goes up to battle a DB for a jump ball they BOTH have to set their feet and gain position even before anything happens. With longer arms than average and a much longer span than average and already being over 6'3 with under estimated speed he has 'rare' physical gifts and the tape shows he naturally knows how to use his gifts.

Here are game tape observations on M.Sanu I pulled up:

Too big and strong for most defenders.

A threat to beat the defender over the top.

Good acceleration and good, but not elite, speed.

Eats up the cushion.

Outstanding hand eye coordination.

Impressive body control and awareness.

Very reliable hands and a wide catch radius due to his long arms.

Strong leaping skills.

Quick burst off the line.

Exciting blend of size, strength and natural running skills.

Good strength and very good effort blocking.

Sanu measured:

6'2" height. (Gordon is 6'3")

211 lbs. (Gordon is 224)

36" vertical. (Matches Gordon)

126" broad jump. (Betters Gordon by 5")

19 bench reps. (Betters Gordon by 6 reps)

4.67 in the 40. (Worse by 0.15, which isn't insignificant)

33.4" arm length (Essentially matches Gordon's 33.33" arms)

10.1" hands (essentially matches Gordon's 10" hands)

How about Randle?

Big, strong and athletic.

Good strength and burst.

Smooth accelerator who can get behind the defense.

Strong hands.

Long arms and big hands.

Has the speed to beat defenders deep.

Good body control.

Good flexibility to extend and pluck passes.

Takes pride in his role as blocker.

Randle's measurables?

6'3" height (same)

210 lbs. (Gordon is heavier)

31" vertical (Gordon better by 5", but then Little is better than Gordon, remember)

121" broad jump (matches Gordon)

15 bench reps (better than Gordon by 2)

4.55 in the 40. (0.02 slower...than a pro day time)

33" arm length. (1/3 of an inch shorter than Gordon)

9.4" hands. (0.6 inches smaller than Gordon)

Criner's measurables?

6'2" height (shorter than Gordon)

224 lbs. (same weight)

38" vertical (2" better than Gordon)

117" broad jump (4" worse than Gordon)

17 bench reps (4 more reps than Gordon)

4.68 in the 40. (0.16 slower, again, not insignificant)

32" arm length. (1.33" shorter than Gordon)

10.4" hands. (0.4" larger than Gordon)

We see with Criner similar reference to his size, hands, strength and athleticism, and his speed is described as "deceptive". In my mind "deceptive" translates to better game speed than timed speed.

How about Tommy Streeter?

6'4" height. (Taller than Gordon)

219 lbs. (giving up 5 lbs to Gordon)

33" vertical. (3" worse than Gordon)

125" broad jump. (4" better than Gordon)

17 bench reps. (4 reps better than Gordon)

4.40 in the 40. (Ran 0.12 faster than Gordon's pro day speed)

34.6" arm length. (1.6" longer than Gordon)

9.4" hands. (giving up 0.6" to Gordon)

The funny thing about Streeter, who is only giving a few pounds and less than an inch in hand size up to Gordon while smoking Gordon's 40 time and being taller, is that scouts wonder if Streeter is a one year wonder. Hmm. He has great length and high points well. His weaknesses are being raw and not using good technique to get off the line cleanly. Sound familiar? Streeter was a 6th round pick this year.

Isn't it possible we are judging Gordon in a vacuum right now and he's therefore looking more impressive than he would if he was being poked and prodded alongside the rest of the 2012 WR raft class?

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You are right once again, ALL of those guys went into the draft process but none of them were considered to have 'rare' physical skills. They possess some things better/worse than Gordon but the key is they went thru the draft process.Its not a mistake that those guys did not go higher in the draft. Gordon only had one team put a second round bid on him, Cleveland. The scouting community did weigh in and they said he has 'rare' physical skills.

You mentioned Gordon played his hand close to his vest and declared late in the game so people wouldn't poke around too much on his background, possibly but consider this.

Cleveland used its first round pick in 2011 on DT Phil Taylor. Cleveland was seriously looking into taking Baylor QB RG III and was willing to pay three first round draft picks and its high second round draft pick this year but missed out. We know from reports that the Browns were set to take Baylor WR Kendall Wright with its 22nd pick in the first round but missed out. Now the Browns have taken former Baylor WR Josh Gordon and made the only second round bid on him. What does this say about Cleveland's scouting department inside Baylor?

It says they have a trusted source inside Baylor and they've invested high picks and would have invested other high picks on players from Baylor indicating they would have bet all of thier highest picks on word from that source.

So they may have paid a higher price than other teams would have but they did not make a blind bet, they bet on a trusted source that Gordon has overcome his 'issue' with pot and the scouting community has said he has 'rare' physical skills so I see him as a guy with 'rare' physical skills going into a very advantageous situation to produce earlier rather than later and the path is paved for him to turn into a legit #1 WR long term.

The gamble is whether or not he'll do the work to turn into a #1 WR but consider how hard he worked to overcome his 'issue' AND that he worked and practiced with a team for an entire year knowing he'd never play a down. That shows commitment so I think the Browns made a good gamble and I'm willing to make the same gamble if he falls in my rookie draft.

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Three points:1) Schefter reports what others say. His reliability goes no further than that we can believe that someone said what he said they said. In other words, Shefter saying that someone said Gordon has rare skills doesn't mean Gordon has rare skills, it just means someone said he has rare skills. And given the colossal mess that some front offices seem to build year after year, which person said he has rare talents makes a pretty big difference. So anonymous quotes still don't tell us much in the realm of scouting. Who is saying it does makes a difference.

Adam Schefter is well respected because he doesn't put out puff pieces. If he says something, it's because he is quoting/responding to someone he respects. Schefter has become one of the best in the business by that reputation, not by throwing out false reports.

2) I'm not a noob. I understand how wingspan and hand size, etc. all add up. What I have shown though is that his height isn't that rare. His arm length isn't that rare. His hand size isn't that rare. His jump numbers aren't that rare. In every way measured, there are comparable WR's and I don't remember hearing the "rare" label attached to them. Now, I'm not saying he isn't rare. He may be. But when I hear that and then look at the numbers, I'm not seeing rare measureables. Sanu, for instance, is 1" shorter. But in terms of how high their finger tips can get, Sanu might not be giving anything up to Gordon just because of body architecture. Sanu's vertical, arm length and hand size were essentially identical. His broad was better. His bench reps were better. Gordon running a bit faster (and not "rare" faster either) and being 1" taller (again, not "rare" taller) doesn't separate "rare" from "pedestrian".

With little training I think it's impressive and on the field he looks really solid.

3) The scouting community has spoken. And it sounds like you are cherry picking your sources. The consensus opinion was not that Gordon has "rare" skills. There were some saying he shouldn't be more than a 5th rounder. So let's not act like 100% of the opinion on this guy is that he's "rare". Cleveland wanted him worse than anyone else. We know that. But that necessarily means that no one else wanted him that bad. So follow me here. If NFL teams across the board or the scouting community in general thought Gordon is so rare, why were there so few teams seriously interested in this guy? San Fran thought a certain WR was rare this spring that not too many others did. Couldn't it be nothing more than that all over again? Prior to the supplemental draft, people were predicting that a couple of teams might give a 3rd rounder for him. A couple of teams. So then, what club in the NFL wouldn't kick the tires on a young Randy Moss if the general consensus on this kid is that he is "rare"? That tells me that a couple of teams believe, but that not too many others do. So then, you could get anonymous sources from Cleveland and Washington and, voila', you have anonymous sources from both the NFC and the AFC saying this kid has "rare" skills.

21 teams were at his workout, does that tell you teams weren't seriously interested? Once a team puts in a bid in a higher round, the rest of the teams don't submit bids.

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'Mr.Underhill said:

Three points:

1) Schefter reports what others say. His reliability goes no further than that we can believe that someone said what he said they said. In other words, Shefter saying that someone said Gordon has rare skills doesn't mean Gordon has rare skills, it just means someone said he has rare skills. And given the colossal mess that some front offices seem to build year after year, which person said he has rare talents makes a pretty big difference. So anonymous quotes still don't tell us much in the realm of scouting. Who is saying it does makes a difference.

2

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'Shutout said:

Question to Bracie (or anyone): I saw you said that Cleveland is the only team to put in a 2nd round pick for Gordon. Is that reported information? I'm just wondering if we know that or if the NFL discloses that info.

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'Bracie Smathers said:

'Shutout said:

Question to Bracie (or anyone): I saw you said that Cleveland is the only team to put in a 2nd round pick for Gordon. Is that reported information? I'm just wondering if we know that or if the NFL discloses that info.

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I don't know if this information is officially put out by the NFL as it could open up teams to criticism but like Wonderlic scores reports due surface. I can't recall where I saw this but I did see where the Browns were the only team to put a second round bid on Gordon so that would ofcourse open them up to criticism, lol. I ofcourse wanted to learn more and that's why I put the effort into looking into Gordon.I'm not concerned at all about any potential criticism because I get the pick.

The Browns held the second slot in every round so if no other team had placed a second round bid then they would have only had to out-bid Buffalo in the third round to assure getting Josh in the third round.

The only reports I heard were that no team other than the Browns placed a second round bid so that means, to me, that other teams did put third round bids in on Gordon.

We don't know if one of those teams was Buffalo or not.

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'identikit said:

'Bracie Smathers said:

'Shutout said:

Question to Bracie (or anyone): I saw you said that Cleveland is the only team to put in a 2nd round pick for Gordon. Is that reported information? I'm just wondering if we know that or if the NFL discloses that info.

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I don't know if this information is officially put out by the NFL as it could open up teams to criticism but like Wonderlic scores reports due surface. I can't recall where I saw this but I did see where the Browns were the only team to put a second round bid on Gordon so that would ofcourse open them up to criticism, lol. I ofcourse wanted to learn more and that's why I put the effort into looking into Gordon.I'm not concerned at all about any potential criticism because I get the pick.

The Browns held the second slot in every round so if no other team had placed a second round bid then they would have only had to out-bid Buffalo in the third round to assure getting Josh in the third round.

The only reports I heard were that no team other than the Browns placed a second round bid so that means, to me, that other teams did put third round bids in on Gordon.

We don't know if one of those teams was Buffalo or not.

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NFL doesn't announce bids (other than the winning one). Once the player's chosen, that's it.

I've heard rumors that Buffalo (who had the 3.1 right in front of the Browns) planned to pick Gordon there. Also read that Dallas intended to use their 3rd on him.

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'Shutout said:

I know there has been some ?? between sites posting of his age, but did Gordon just turn 21 in April?

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Tony Grossi

New Browns WR Josh Gordon met Cleveland-area media for the first time and admitted he failed a marijuana test at Utah before deciding to enter the supplemental draft. It was his third failed test in two years. "Just having an opportunity to be out here is definitely all the motivation I need to feel the need to stay on the right path," he said. "Seeing as though I’m already the guy with a spotty background, it would make no sense for me to ever try to get back to doing the stuff I was doing. I have no thoughts of ever trying to be that person."

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'cstu said:

Only 3 WR's have been taken with 4th or higher picks in the supplemental draft:Rob Moore - 1stChris Carter - 4thJosh Gordon - 2nd

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'The Man With No Name said:

'cstu said:

Only 3 WR's have been taken with 4th or higher picks in the supplemental draft:Rob Moore - 1stCris Carter - 4thJosh Gordon - 2nd

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Cris Carter, not Chris Carter

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Browns Josh Gordon impressive in first practice

... Gordon, after his first practice has impressed many--including Browns head coach Pat Shurmur and rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden ...

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'Bucky86 said:

'Bracie Smathers said:

Yesterday the rooks checked in.

First impressions tend to linger and many times prove to be true.

My link

Browns Josh Gordon impressive in first practice

... Gordon, after his first practice has impressed many--including Browns head coach Pat Shurmur and rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden ...

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Some from the tweetersphere have weighed in with first impressionsaryl Ruiter ‏@RuiterWrongFAN

Gordon looks like the tallest WR on the field right now; hands look good in drills too #Browns

Nate Ulrich ‏@NateUlrichABJ

#Browns rookie Josh Gordon gets instruction from WR coach Mike Wilson on route running. Later runs slant & coach Nolan Cromwell yells "nice"

Vets check in next week and then the real camp begins but first impression is positive.

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Love hearing this. At our rookie draft I heard multiple groans when I called his name late in the third round. I had 3 other teams tell me they were targeting him with their 4th round pick.

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Loaded with ability, Browns WR Josh Gordon is on the fast track in his first training camp

Jul 28, 2012 -- 3:31pm

... On the fast track: Gordon later had some nice one-on-one battles with Joe Haden, the Browns’ best cornerback. On one, Gordon got behind Haden but couldn’t come down with a long ball over his shoulder in the end zone. The ball deflected off his outstretched hands.

Gordon is under orders not to go full speed as he recovers from a quadriceps muscle pull suffered in his workout for NFL scouts on July 10. So that might account for coming up short on that throw.

Other times, Haden gave Gordon a personal session on bump-and-run coverage, something the 6-3, 225-pound Gordon seldom saw in the Big 12 Conference at Baylor.

“Joe came back and said, ‘Wow, this is a big sucker,’” related coach Pat Shurmur. “On one of the routes, (Gordon) did a good job of getting separation. That’s what you need to see. I know he can catch the football. I know he can really run when he gets going. Now in this camp – because previous to training camp bump-and-run was not allowed – so this is where you start to see receivers getting challenged.”

The schooling of Gordon is on the fast track. The Browns realize he possesses skills and natural ability that put him in the elite class. Nobody else on the receiver roster has the same.

“I’ve been down this road before,” said receivers coach Mike Wilson. “I coached Tim Brown with the Raiders. I had Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin in Arizona three years. I played with Jerry Rice. Talent is talent. He has unlimited potential. It will come out in due time. He’s not going to master it in one day.

“Right now he’s just getting over a slight (quad) and we’re being cautious with him. Once his body’s well, then we’ll really hone in on it. Big body, nice hands, very smooth athlete, catches the ball well. Watching his cut-up tape from college, he’s a playmaker. He has the ability to stretch the field vertically. He uses his hands to catch. This was really a bonus for us.”

... Haden said, “He’s really good. He’s strong. He has no problem getting off the line on press coverage. I think the only thing is making all of his routes look the same. Making his comebacks look like his fades or his digs, or come out of his breaks fast. He's definitely looking good for only his second day out here.”

Wise old corner Sheldon Brown said, “I think he’s a talented player. Like I told him earlier, the biggest thing about it is most guys here are talented. It’s just being able to mentally prepare for the NFL, the gameplan. Obviously, you have the ability. It’s just having the mental ability to process everything.”

Gordon’s outstanding physical skills obscure the fact he is also a bright player with the capacity to accept coaching and learn fast. “That’s an added bonus to his game,” Shurmur said.

... “Never having played at this level, I definitely want to watch and learn and listen. But eventually I do plan to become a leader on this team and on offense by making plays on the field.”

Oh, yeah. He has that confidence gene that all the playmaking receivers have, too.

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'Bracie Smathers said:

Gordon's first work against the veterans is positive.

Note of interest: Gordon tweaked his quad in his Pro-Day workout so he's not practicing at full-speed.

First impression is positive and the first reports of him matching up against the vets is also positive.

My link

Loaded with ability, Browns WR Josh Gordon is on the fast track in his first training camp

Jul 28, 2012 -- 3:31pm

... On the fast track: Gordon later had some nice one-on-one battles with Joe Haden, the Browns' best cornerback. On one, Gordon got behind Haden but couldn't come down with a long ball over his shoulder in the end zone. The ball deflected off his outstretched hands.

Gordon is under orders not to go full speed as he recovers from a quadriceps muscle pull suffered in his workout for NFL scouts on July 10. So that might account for coming up short on that throw.

Other times, Haden gave Gordon a personal session on bump-and-run coverage, something the 6-3, 225-pound Gordon seldom saw in the Big 12 Conference at Baylor.

"Joe came back and said, 'Wow, this is a big sucker,'" related coach Pat Shurmur. "On one of the routes, (Gordon) did a good job of getting separation. That's what you need to see. I know he can catch the football. I know he can really run when he gets going. Now in this camp – because previous to training camp bump-and-run was not allowed – so this is where you start to see receivers getting challenged."

The schooling of Gordon is on the fast track. The Browns realize he possesses skills and natural ability that put him in the elite class. Nobody else on the receiver roster has the same.

"I've been down this road before," said receivers coach Mike Wilson. "I coached Tim Brown with the Raiders. I had Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin in Arizona three years. I played with Jerry Rice. Talent is talent. He has unlimited potential. It will come out in due time. He's not going to master it in one day.

"Right now he's just getting over a slight (quad) and we're being cautious with him. Once his body's well, then we'll really hone in on it. Big body, nice hands, very smooth athlete, catches the ball well. Watching his cut-up tape from college, he's a playmaker. He has the ability to stretch the field vertically. He uses his hands to catch. This was really a bonus for us."

... Haden said, "He's really good. He's strong. He has no problem getting off the line on press coverage. I think the only thing is making all of his routes look the same. Making his comebacks look like his fades or his digs, or come out of his breaks fast. He's definitely looking good for only his second day out here."

Wise old corner Sheldon Brown said, "I think he's a talented player. Like I told him earlier, the biggest thing about it is most guys here are talented. It's just being able to mentally prepare for the NFL, the gameplan. Obviously, you have the ability. It's just having the mental ability to process everything."

Gordon's outstanding physical skills obscure the fact he is also a bright player with the capacity to accept coaching and learn fast. "That's an added bonus to his game," Shurmur said.

... "Never having played at this level, I definitely want to watch and learn and listen. But eventually I do plan to become a leader on this team and on offense by making plays on the field."

Oh, yeah. He has that confidence gene that all the playmaking receivers have, too.

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So far so good.

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'identikit said:

Indeed.Then again, what else are his teammates and coaches going to say?

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... Haden said, "He's really good. He's strong. He has no problem getting off the line on press coverage."

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(Rotoworld) Second-round WR Josh Gordon has established himself as the team's "most physically gifted pass-catcher."Analysis: According to Vic Carucci of the Browns official website, Gordon and Travis Benjamin have performed "exceptionally well" as arguably the two best receivers in camp. Gordon's combination of "exceptional size, strength, and athleticism is mostly unmatched by any other receiver on the team," writes Carucci. Gordon is starting to gain our attention in all formats.

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Browns notebook: Gordon flashes, falters

BEREA — Rookie receiver Josh Gordon’s impressive start to training camp has hit a wall.

“You can see that some of these guys have got camp legs,” head coach Pat Shurmur said.

The head coach acknowledged that Gordon, taken in last month’s supplemental draft, is a camp-legs sufferer.

After getting kicked out of Baylor, Gordon practiced with Utah last year but did not play. At 21, he is the youngest player in camp.

“His mind and body are battling right now,” Shurmur said. “This is unlike anything he’s ever been through.”

Gordon is thought to be the Browns’ best candidate to eventually be a star wideout.

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'bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

I thought travis benjamin looked good

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'amnesiac said:

from what i've read he doesn't seem very bright.

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'ShaHBucks said:

Gordon was a product of RGIII. Just look at the video where the CB's are clearly watching ball fakes, how can you say a say a guy is a burner because of that? To me that says the gameplan was to hell with Gordon, don't let RG3 out of the pocket. And then mention he can be Calvin Johnson smh. If your going to say that then show me a team who was game planing to stop him, yet he's still making circus catches vs double teams 30 yards down the field. I doubt that video exist because RGIII Olympic speed is the reason he single covered in any video I see of him. Oh and 3 targets 0 catches in the Browns first preseason game. Weeden was trying to force it to him but he wasn't open at all. Same goes for Kendall Wright. If they were really burning people it would show in the 40 time.Who ever tweeted that he ran a 4.3 I'd unfollow.

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'gbill2004 said:

What kind of numbers can we expect from him this season?

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'pghrob said:

'gbill2004 said:

What kind of numbers can we expect from him this season?

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30 for 390 and 3, maybe 4 td's would seem about right.Maybe 3 rushes for 30 yards.Gordon is not going to splash this year. He will make a couple plays, but he is raw and needs time to develop.

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'whatadai said:

'ShaHBucks said:

Gordon was a product of RGIII. Just look at the video where the CB's are clearly watching ball fakes, how can you say a say a guy is a burner because of that? To me that says the gameplan was to hell with Gordon, don't let RG3 out of the pocket. And then mention he can be Calvin Johnson smh. If your going to say that then show me a team who was game planing to stop him, yet he's still making circus catches vs double teams 30 yards down the field. I doubt that video exist because RGIII Olympic speed is the reason he single covered in any video I see of him. Oh and 3 targets 0 catches in the Browns first preseason game. Weeden was trying to force it to him but he wasn't open at all. Same goes for Kendall Wright. If they were really burning people it would show in the 40 time.Who ever tweeted that he ran a 4.3 I'd unfollow.

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Please tell me where you saw any video of him.

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'Shutout said:

The more I see and hear, the more I like this guy and I think its because everything seems "real" with how he is coming along. A lot of times we draft these guys and expect them to be the next Fitz right out of the box or they carry so much hype that its just unrealistic. But with Gordon, it seems to be falling into place just as you might think.He has the physical gifts and shows up and looks good and shows signs of what the Browns saw in him. Then he "hits a wall"..very natural for a guy that hasn't played in almost two years and is learning the pro grame. Then he responds and improves in training camp and, by all reports from his coaches and teammates, is accepting instruction and improving. Then he gets in a game and looks "ok". To me, that's very acceptable for a guy stepping on a field for live action for the first time in two years and on a pro field for the first time. makes me think that he is intellectually processing this and gets it; sees his opportunity and isn't taking it for granted.And then you read all the reports where, to a man, everyone says the talent is there. the willingness is there. He's not on the same path as a high profile rookie so I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't come out hot like some guys do. But I really expect by the beginning of November, he's going to be a steady part of the Browns offense and by the end of the year, he might look as promising as any rookie this year.

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BEREA, Ohio — Browns rookie quarterback Brandon Weeden has been working overtime to get on the same page with his skill players, especially the young ones such as receivers Greg Little and Josh Gordon.

... What Weeden has been able to do is work after practice to correct the mistakes he's had with Little and Gordon. In Detroit, a pass to Gordon on a comeback route was nearly picked off, and one to Little was swiped when Little stopped his route shorter than Weeden anticipated. Weeden and Little ran the play over at least five times after practice last Sunday to correct the mistake.

In Green Bay, both Gordon and Little dropped easy passes, Gordon a little hitch at the Green Bay 25 and Little a wide-open gimme near midfield. Gordon also came up short on a route for the second straight week, and the ball was almost intercepted again.

“Me and Greg are getting on the same page,'' Weeden said. "We’re working hard at it. We’re communicating a lot about a lot of different things. The route with Gordon – I talk to him before the game, during the game and after the game about certain things I see I think he can do. I’m not a receivers coach, so I don’t know how to tell him to run a route, but (I tell him) what I’m thinking as far as when I’m going to pull the trigger."

Weeden said he had no qualms about going back to Gordon, who caught a 19-yarder from him earlier in the game.

"You have to,'' he said. "That was my first read and it was there. He had cushion and it was perfect -- the exact look we wanted. I'm not going to change my reads and how I feel. I trust Josh and I'm not going to work the other side of the field just because it's him and the same thing happened the week before.''

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Josh Gordon caught his first preseason pass in the NFL after coming up empty last week, but then looked like a rookie again in the second quarter when he failed to do his job on a comeback route. Just as happened in Detroit, Gordon being asleep at the switch nearly resulted in an interception.

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Weeden said Gordon ran the route a couple yards too deep, which threw the timing off. Despite his obvious struggles and learning curve, Weeden said the coaching staff will keep throwing Gordon “into the fire.”

“He’s going to be out there,” Weeden said. “He’s got way too many tools and he’s way too good of a player not to be on the field.”

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Brandon Weeden says he has complete trust in Josh Gordon, even after a repeat of a mistake Gordon made last week resulted in another near-interception Thursday.

Gordon was supposed to run a comeback route on a play that started on the Browns' 47 with 4:14 left in the first half. He did not cut back as early as he should have. Packers cornerback Casey Hayward jumped in front of Gordon as Weeden threw. The ball bounced off Hayward's hands incomplete.

Gordon made the same error in the preseason opener. Lions defensive back Dwight Bentley dropped what should have been an easy interception.

"I talked to him before the game, during the game and after the game about certain things I see I think he can do," Weeden said after practice Friday. "I'm not a receivers coach, so I don't know how to tell him to run a route, but (I told him) what I'm thinking as far as when I'm going to pull the trigger. I think that's the main thing — the timing of that route.

"The DB made a great play on it, but (Gordon) was a yard or two long. If he runs it at the right depth, maybe it's a completion vs. almost a pick six. It's getting on the same page. This game is so tough. A yard here or there can determine a lot of the outcome."

Soon there will be times when games count that Weeden will have to make that split-second decision — throw the comeback to Gordon or throw to another receiver. Weeden says he will look to Gordon first if that's the way the play is designed.

"You have to (have trust)," Weeden said. "That was my first read, and it was there. He had cushion and it was perfect — the exact look we wanted. I'm not going to change my reads and how I feel.

"I trust Josh and I'm not going to work the other side of the field just because it's him and the same thing happened the week before. I can't do that. To sum it all up, we have to be on the same page. We can't continue to do it, but he's a rookie, he's learning just like I am. He's trying to play fast."

Gordon would be further ahead if he had an offseason with the Browns, but he didn't because he was taken in the supplemental draft July 12 with a 2013 second-round pick. The Browns are counting on him heavily and would like him to pay dividends this year.

Last week, Coach Pat Shurmur pulled Gordon from practice for running a route lackadaisically. Gordon was better after that. The Browns are amping up his preparation because they believe he has potential. By contrast Carlton Mitchell has hardly practiced this summer, and no one seems to care.

"They're throwing him in the fire," Weeden said. "He's going to be out there. He's got way too many tools, and he's way too good of a player to not be on the field.

"You've got to kind of tailor stuff to fit what he does well. There are certain things he does extremely well. We're not going to do stuff to make him feel uncomfortable where he feels out of his element. It's still a learning process. That's why we're in training camp; we're still in that mode of doing the fundamental things. He's going to be in there. He's too good of a player to sit on the sideline."

Gordon was targeted five times in Green Bay and caught two passes. He was targeted three times in Detroit and did not catch a pass.

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