Proust Loves Cake
Footballguy
What you'd say about reaction time at .08 BAC is inconsistent with the rather voluminous research literature that has directly investigated this relationship.
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WR Josh Gordon, KC (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter Matt Waldman
- Start date
Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
You are also disregarding the prospect of responsibility. It's called get a ride home. Or call a cab. You can also just tell your work buddies that you have to drive home and you're done drinking. In my experiences, people respect that
Proust Loves Cake
Footballguy
Without jumping to assumptions and conclusions, how would you go about discouraging these situations? Beyond encouraging individuals to make responsible decisions (which, curiously, you did not address here), would you want laws prohibiting the suppliers? Or, are you thinking more marketing aimed at the consumer?
mquinnjr
Footballguy
If he isn't, with all of the pending violations of league policy compounded together, Goodell should lose his job if he doesn't suspend him indefinitely. Not doing so makes his tenure a total hypocrisy.
I am an owner, but a realist. In the mourning/realist stage of grieving.
Seriously, this guy is a solid ~2 years from playing in the league with all of the violations compounded.
Sweetness_34
Footballguy
soulfly must have jumped off a cliff by now....
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
In college the guy got suspended and then kicked off his team and then failed another test on his new team before playing a down.
He gets drafted in the NFL supplemental draft and must have failed at least two tests before getting suspended last year for codiene.
While waiting his suspension last year for codience he got busted for speeding, not regular speeding but over 100 miles per hour speeding.
This year reports of another failed test and he gets busted for speeding where his passenger has weed.
Now the DUI after the NFL announced his appeal was to take place later this month.
Oh and you won't believe it but PFT says this DUI has no bearing on his potential suspension for a failed drug test.
So those arguing the substance abuse policy has no relation to the personal conduct policy will have a test as to whether the NFL does indeed use the PCD to take all factors into a case when dispatching punishment as I had argued but got shot down.
If they don't take the DUI into account then I was wrong because the subtance abuse policy handles pot completely separately from alchohol under its guidelines but the PCP would gather up each separate incident, even those that did not pertain to subtance abuse, when factoring in punishment.
In any event Gordon acting out like this show he is not just calling out for help he's scream for it but the NFL says those players should not be near team facilities.
OK, how about if a player has problems of any kind where they could and should seek treament that the NFL places those players into a rehabilitation center together where they could get help if they wanted it or wanted the chance to get back into the league?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/category/rumor-mill/
He gets drafted in the NFL supplemental draft and must have failed at least two tests before getting suspended last year for codiene.
While waiting his suspension last year for codience he got busted for speeding, not regular speeding but over 100 miles per hour speeding.
This year reports of another failed test and he gets busted for speeding where his passenger has weed.
Now the DUI after the NFL announced his appeal was to take place later this month.
Oh and you won't believe it but PFT says this DUI has no bearing on his potential suspension for a failed drug test.
So those arguing the substance abuse policy has no relation to the personal conduct policy will have a test as to whether the NFL does indeed use the PCD to take all factors into a case when dispatching punishment as I had argued but got shot down.
If they don't take the DUI into account then I was wrong because the subtance abuse policy handles pot completely separately from alchohol under its guidelines but the PCP would gather up each separate incident, even those that did not pertain to subtance abuse, when factoring in punishment.
In any event Gordon acting out like this show he is not just calling out for help he's scream for it but the NFL says those players should not be near team facilities.
OK, how about if a player has problems of any kind where they could and should seek treament that the NFL places those players into a rehabilitation center together where they could get help if they wanted it or wanted the chance to get back into the league?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/category/rumor-mill/
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Exactly. I just scooped him for a 2016 3rd round pick. I immediately stuck him on IR. Not sure why the owner offered him to me like that but I jumped. No way a player I could get in the late 3rd round is going to have the upside.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
it comes close to believable from Manziel. Well playedpantherclub
Footballguy
Pots
Footballguy
While it is typical for people in their 20's to make mistakes, typically they learn from them. If this was a first offense, Bloom would have a point, but his comments are completely out of place after this latest arrest. This is NOT typical for someone that's 23 and shows a complete lack of ability to control oneself and/or the intelligence to understand the results of their actions.
Louche
Footballguy
The magic of this latest episode is that he was bailed out....by a DRUG DEALER.
"Thomas, 39, has four aliases, according to the North Carolina Department of Public Safety. Thomas also has an extensive criminal background, with arrests in Wake, Durham, Orange, Alamance, and Guilford counties, according to public records. Many of his charges are drug and gun related. He has never served time in jail or prison, according to the Department of Public Safety."
"Thomas was most recently arrested in December and charged with three felonies: possession and intent to sell a controlled substance (12 grams of marijuana), maintaining a dwelling used for keeping or selling a controlled substance, and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. A trial date has not yet been set."
http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/07/05/3012727/felon-who-rented-car-in-hairston.html#storylink=cpy
I mean...seriously...is Josh Gordon trolling?
"Thomas, 39, has four aliases, according to the North Carolina Department of Public Safety. Thomas also has an extensive criminal background, with arrests in Wake, Durham, Orange, Alamance, and Guilford counties, according to public records. Many of his charges are drug and gun related. He has never served time in jail or prison, according to the Department of Public Safety."
"Thomas was most recently arrested in December and charged with three felonies: possession and intent to sell a controlled substance (12 grams of marijuana), maintaining a dwelling used for keeping or selling a controlled substance, and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. A trial date has not yet been set."
http://www.newsobserver.com/2013/07/05/3012727/felon-who-rented-car-in-hairston.html#storylink=cpy
I mean...seriously...is Josh Gordon trolling?
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
just wait to see what happens during his suspension and no support from the Browns. This kid cant stay out of trouble for 1 month nevermind a whole yr.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
This is the NFL. It is a business. It has to look at all aspects of a situation when it makes decisions, but ultimately those decisions will be in its own best interest.
In this case, the business interests seem pretty simple. The league could sweep this under the rug, diminish it publicly, and make an excuse to reinstate Gordon after a short suspension in order to get one superstar back on the field.
But the NFL is interested in the long term. They recognize that by doing so they would antagonize some groups of potential ticket buyers - MADD proponents, people who are tired of seeing young irresponsible kids making way too much money playing a game, etc. That's a direct impact on their bottom line.
But there is also the indirect impact, which I'm certain the NFL thinks is massive. While they may lose Gordon by drawing the line and then not crossing it, they recognize that they also show every other young guy currently in the league and those joining the league in the future that while they will provide second and third chances that there is a hard line that does in fact exist, they will relentlessly enforce it, and you can lose the ability to earn millions of dollars if you fail to act responsibly and learn when you've been caught multiple times.
There is substantial value in that, a lot more than just Gordon's career. It lets every one of these young guys know that personal responsibility will be zealously enforced. For a group of young people, many of whom have been given very lenient and privileged treatment their whole lives because they are star athletes, now are going to make riches beyond their wildest dreams, and because of that will experience unusual pressures beyond just competition on the field - which is tough enough; this is critical to the league.
Unlike some here, the league wants that line to be definitive and severe. That is so these guys know that the consequence is there, it is real, and they can and will lose that golden opportunity that the NFL has provided if they cross that line.
That is a benefit to every other guy in the league right now and those who will be in the league. The league can point at Gordon and tell every one of those young guys that it can and it does in fact happen. And that tangible threat may keep many, many more of them responsible for their own behavior because of that - because if they fail to act responsibly too many times, they will lose their dream.
That's a tremendous benefit to the NFL. It earns goodwill from the public, but more importantly it helps keep many others who are young and would act recklessly in check. So do they turn their heads, slap Gordon on the wrist, and put one superstar back in play; or do they rigorously enforce their policy, suspend Gordon for a substantial amount, and send the message to all those others that we are serious and you will lose if you fail to learn from the first few times you screw up. To me, that seems like an easy decision. No one player is above the good of the whole.
So the NFL sends a strong message: We do tolerate some mistakes, but unlike so many others in this country, when we draw the line we are dead serious and no matter who you are you will have your ability to earn millions taken from you.
Pretty simple concept, and remarkably effective.
.
In this case, the business interests seem pretty simple. The league could sweep this under the rug, diminish it publicly, and make an excuse to reinstate Gordon after a short suspension in order to get one superstar back on the field.
But the NFL is interested in the long term. They recognize that by doing so they would antagonize some groups of potential ticket buyers - MADD proponents, people who are tired of seeing young irresponsible kids making way too much money playing a game, etc. That's a direct impact on their bottom line.
But there is also the indirect impact, which I'm certain the NFL thinks is massive. While they may lose Gordon by drawing the line and then not crossing it, they recognize that they also show every other young guy currently in the league and those joining the league in the future that while they will provide second and third chances that there is a hard line that does in fact exist, they will relentlessly enforce it, and you can lose the ability to earn millions of dollars if you fail to act responsibly and learn when you've been caught multiple times.
There is substantial value in that, a lot more than just Gordon's career. It lets every one of these young guys know that personal responsibility will be zealously enforced. For a group of young people, many of whom have been given very lenient and privileged treatment their whole lives because they are star athletes, now are going to make riches beyond their wildest dreams, and because of that will experience unusual pressures beyond just competition on the field - which is tough enough; this is critical to the league.
Unlike some here, the league wants that line to be definitive and severe. That is so these guys know that the consequence is there, it is real, and they can and will lose that golden opportunity that the NFL has provided if they cross that line.
That is a benefit to every other guy in the league right now and those who will be in the league. The league can point at Gordon and tell every one of those young guys that it can and it does in fact happen. And that tangible threat may keep many, many more of them responsible for their own behavior because of that - because if they fail to act responsibly too many times, they will lose their dream.
That's a tremendous benefit to the NFL. It earns goodwill from the public, but more importantly it helps keep many others who are young and would act recklessly in check. So do they turn their heads, slap Gordon on the wrist, and put one superstar back in play; or do they rigorously enforce their policy, suspend Gordon for a substantial amount, and send the message to all those others that we are serious and you will lose if you fail to learn from the first few times you screw up. To me, that seems like an easy decision. No one player is above the good of the whole.
So the NFL sends a strong message: We do tolerate some mistakes, but unlike so many others in this country, when we draw the line we are dead serious and no matter who you are you will have your ability to earn millions taken from you.
Pretty simple concept, and remarkably effective.
.
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jurb26
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm calling BS on that one. I've never seen a league that allows you to place anyone on IR that isn't, well, injured.
amnesiac
beer is good
i have one league that has a practice squad. maybe their rules are just looser and they call all those spots IR?
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
2 years? Some of you are off your rockers.
Side note: what was the last case of Goodell's shield personal conduct policy? Seems like it really cooled off after the big cases and the union started to get pissed about it. Not trolling, generally curious.
Side note: what was the last case of Goodell's shield personal conduct policy? Seems like it really cooled off after the big cases and the union started to get pissed about it. Not trolling, generally curious.
Rookie_Whisperer
Footballguy
From the looks of it, bail was only set at $500. Seriously, if Fats Thomas is your first call for a $500 bail, you have got serious issues.....
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Sounds like the Browns have had enough
NFL Network's Ian Rapoport says doubt is creeping in whether Josh Gordon will ever play for the Browns again.
Thanks to otherworldly talent, the Browns used a 2012 second-round supplemental pick on Gordon even though he had been kicked off of Baylor's team and subsequently failed a drug test at Utah. They then stuck by him through a two-game suspension last year, and publicly supported him after a recent failed drug test and a "passenger" getting cited for weed. But Saturday morning's DWI in North Carolina may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Gordon will almost certainly be suspended for the entire 2014 season, and is far from a lock to be reinstated in 2015.
NFL Network's Ian Rapoport says doubt is creeping in whether Josh Gordon will ever play for the Browns again.
Thanks to otherworldly talent, the Browns used a 2012 second-round supplemental pick on Gordon even though he had been kicked off of Baylor's team and subsequently failed a drug test at Utah. They then stuck by him through a two-game suspension last year, and publicly supported him after a recent failed drug test and a "passenger" getting cited for weed. But Saturday morning's DWI in North Carolina may be the straw that breaks the camel's back. Gordon will almost certainly be suspended for the entire 2014 season, and is far from a lock to be reinstated in 2015.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
On this tracker it appears no one has been suspended for conduct policy infraction in years 2013 and 2014:
http://www.spotrac.com/fines-tracker/nfl/2013/suspensions/#
Trying to delve a little deeper but wanted to get discussion started on this in my quick search. Just feel like these stupid actions affect him more in his standing with the organization than with his appeal.
Edit: 2012 paints a different picture with 3 players that I could tell having personal conduct suspensions: http://www.spotrac.com/fines-tracker/nfl/2012/suspensions/#
http://www.spotrac.com/fines-tracker/nfl/2013/suspensions/#
Trying to delve a little deeper but wanted to get discussion started on this in my quick search. Just feel like these stupid actions affect him more in his standing with the organization than with his appeal.
Edit: 2012 paints a different picture with 3 players that I could tell having personal conduct suspensions: http://www.spotrac.com/fines-tracker/nfl/2012/suspensions/#
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lod01
Footballguy
Who has the stats on the longest amount of time Soulfly3 has spent between posting in this thread?
Clifford
Footballguy
ROYALWITCHEESE
Footballguy
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Yeah. You kind of have to read between the lines a bit to get there. I guess I could have been more succinct.
ROYALWITCHEESE
Footballguy
No ####! Or driven while taking a medication? Or with leg/joint/back pain? Or with vertigo? Or against doctor's orders? Or with a screaming kid in the backseat? Or while having an argument with your significant other? Or while talking on the phone? I work in medicine, and patients come in having done these things on a daily basis. If I had a nickel for every person who drove to see me in narcotic pain meds? There are so many things people do on a daily basis that slows reaction time...
We all understand drinking and driving is a terrible thing. But let's not act like he should get the death knell here. I'll not judge him. I reserve any judgement until punishment is handed down.
Jeremy
Footballguy
I've noticed the answer to this particular question is influenced heavily by whether or not a person owns Gordon in a fantasy league.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
That site doesn't provide detailed information.
It gives no links in what they label as infraction. It says infraction and then says either Subtance or PED etc but doesn't explain if that was an NFL policy violation.
Under the title of CATEGORIES they have listed 42 different things where a player could have an issue but their isn't any useful information. The NFL doesn't have 42 separate policies to cover everything listed in those categories and the infraction heading doesn't explain what those infractions mean.
Nowhere does this site state anything about NFL policies violated. It never even mentions NFL policies. I'm sure the information is out there somewhere but unfortunately this site doesn't say anything about NFL policies.
He blew a .09...
I think there is a good chance this gets thrown out (unless there is more we don't know).
The closer that you are to the limit the better your chances of getting it thrown out. He is so close to the limit...
There are different degrees of DUI, and I think the NFL realizes this. For all we know Gordon may have somewhat done the right thing and said "No, I don't want another - I've got to drive home".
I think there is a good chance this gets thrown out (unless there is more we don't know).
The closer that you are to the limit the better your chances of getting it thrown out. He is so close to the limit...
There are different degrees of DUI, and I think the NFL realizes this. For all we know Gordon may have somewhat done the right thing and said "No, I don't want another - I've got to drive home".
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
It's obvious now that there's literally no amount of evidence that will convince some people Gordon's a spent force in the NFL barring some time away and a Chris Carter style revival somewhere down the road.
Since the story about his 3rd positive drug test became public he's been pulled over in a car with people smoking weed, been arrested for DUI and bailed out by a small-time Marcellus Wallace.
Even if he beats the rap on the current suspension his days in the NFL are more or less done for the time being. The only question is exactly when the axe falls and whether he can pick up the pieces after it does.
Since the story about his 3rd positive drug test became public he's been pulled over in a car with people smoking weed, been arrested for DUI and bailed out by a small-time Marcellus Wallace.
Even if he beats the rap on the current suspension his days in the NFL are more or less done for the time being. The only question is exactly when the axe falls and whether he can pick up the pieces after it does.
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Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
An objective look says that there is very little precedent for a suspension based solely on the merits of DUI's and speeding. The substance abuse was already the subject of debate. If he indeed did test positive without any other factors in play I think he is just like Brazill and Washington gets a year suspension. That isn't to say it doesn't impact his standing within the Browns organization. I could see him being cut or them trying to sell him for anything next offseason. That is to say if he doesn't just completely lose his #### if he is done for the year. If he gets less than a year I think most would be surprised. There arnt too many cases where someone was suspended once for substance abuse and then on the second offense they weren't gone for the year, that is pretty much standard procedure. Then again the Browns were strangely comfortable with his appeal during the draft so their may have been some merit to his appeal. If he wins the appeal and still sees a suspension for conduct policy I would say the estimate would be 1-3 game looking at prior suspensions under that policy. Not sure Goodell has the power to PacMan him anymore.
cstu
Footballguy
I'm not condemning him as a person, Bloom is right that a lot of people make mistakes when they are young. My judgement comes from him potentially being a HOF WR who decided to throw it all away rather than get help for his problems.
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Bronco Billy
Footballguy
How are we bringing the DUI into the current appeal on the alleged missed drug test? The DUI is a subsequent event and should have no bearing on that.
It will likely merit its own punishment in a separate future event, I'd guess. At the least it contributes to a continued I-don't-give-a-#### pattern of behavior that I'm guessing the league will frown on.
It will likely merit its own punishment in a separate future event, I'd guess. At the least it contributes to a continued I-don't-give-a-#### pattern of behavior that I'm guessing the league will frown on.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Looking at that link I don't think it says Gordon was bailed out by this guy, any confirmation elsewhere? Not doubting it, just curious, would like more info, etc.
cstu
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Well it's not a court of law. I would not put it past the NFL to "take notice" of this when evaluating Gordon's claims, and also consider it separately. I'm guessing indefinite suspension is a real possibility at this point?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
From a former teammate. Obviously much more going on than just a mistake in judgement, which makes all the discussion about "it was just .09" moot.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
I agree, but this is also about due process. I'd be shocked if the NFLPA would agree to have subsequent events affect disposition of current disciplinary matters. They do have lawyers also.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
boy ....you`re really stuck on this .09 thing huh? This isnt a posted speed limit where the cop lets a few miles over go....its the limit the law sees fit as legally too drunk to drive...get over it
And, to be honest, whether it gets thrown out or not doesn't really matter. As has already been posted, the DUI arrest will have not bearing on his current failed/missed drug test and suspension.
Where it does have a bearing is with regards to his appeal hearing. Goodell decides on the appeal, and I've got to imagine that Gordon getting stopped with weed in his car, then arrested for DUI, then bailed out by a convicted felon and suspected drug dealer is not going to be something that would make the commish say "hmmmm...maybe I should cut Josh some slack (for the second year in a row)."
Regardless of whether you think the .09 is BS or not, regardless if whether you think he will get the DUI dismissed or not, this is very likely going to hurt his appeal.
I will not get over it. I'm dealing with facts.
He blew a .09.
He did not - fall asleep at the wheel.
Roll his car over.
Fact is that when you are close to the limit people get off all the time. It's not as cut and dry as the law states or as you are thinking.
Virtually all reputable reporters are saying year long suspension. There have been a few recently that have suggested something less, as part of an agreement before the appeal hearing, but the only places that I've seen suggesting less as an initial suspension don't have much basis.
Well, here's another fact that you need to deal with: Goodell doesn't need to see Gordon to get off or get convicted to factor this arrest into his appeal decison.
You want to keep harping that it was "only" a .09, fine. But you also need to accept this fact: this arrest isn't good for his appeal.
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If the arrest goes away it is a non issue.
He blew a .09 and it may go away... If the charges go away then Goodell is going to take them into consideration??
If they go away - they go away...
