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*****OFFICIAL FORMULA ONE GRAND PRIX THREAD*****

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Crazy ending almost makes up for a mediocre race.  If Ferrari hadn't been so far off pace Red Bull wouldn't have boxed Verstappen to go for fastest lap.  Disastrous race for Racing Point but they were helped by Sainz falling out of the points on the final lap.

Different tire compounds next week may mix things up a little but not enough for anyone to challenge Mercedes.

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On 8/2/2020 at 7:00 PM, Eephus said:

Different tire compounds next week may mix things up a little but not enough for anyone to challenge Mercedes.

There was a lot of talk about this after the race, and whether Pirelli might change the compounds - as I think they were originally going to go with softer compounds for this week.

If they stick with the softer compounds, I think it takes a little bit of suspense away, since everyone will be on a two-stop strategy, knowing the Hards won't last long enough for a 1-stop race.

 

Also waiting for Pirelli's assessment of the tires.  It looks like it will be a combination of excess wear due to higher speeds (I saw a stat where the cars were going 10/kph faster through the turns than last year - which is probably enough to cause higher tire degradation on its own), plus debris on the track which cut the over-worn tires, which led to the tire deflations late in the race.

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Posted (edited)

Mercedes race debrief: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsiYpRoUl6c

 

The limits on tire sets played a role in not bringing in Bottas or Hamilton earlier (they each had to discard some tires from qualifying - meaning fewer available in the race) and their data showed a sudden loss of pressure - meaning, they had not seen it coming.

Edited by The Gator

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Pirelli blame the tire issues on the lengthy runs caused by the early pits with the 2nd safety car, and the higher speeds of the race putting pressure on the tires.

 

They are going with the softer compounds this week - effectively no hard compound - ultra-soft, soft, and medium - but with increased tire pressure to deal with the demands.  Guarantees a 2-stop race for everyone - at a minimum...

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If most everyone is going to make the same number of stops, I much two stop races to one stoppers.  Different strategies, more chances for under/overcuts and pit lane screwups.

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Racing Point found guilty of copying Mercedes brake ducts - on a quirky, yet important, rule distinction.  15-point deduction in constructors race (no driver point deductions), and £360,000 fine.  But, Racing Point can keep the parts for the rest of the season - the punishment deemed acceptable for a season-long breach.

 

The facts were never in dispute - Mercedes admitted to supplying the specs for the brake ducts in 2019 - when it was legal to do so.  A rule change for 2020, put the brake ducts on the list of parts that must be manufactured uniquely by each team.  Racing Point had "designed" and used the front brakes on the 2019 car, and thus, those were allowed to be used in 2020.  But, the back break ducts were not on the 2019 car, and are now illegal on the 2020 car under the new rules.

 

All-in-all it seems like a technical victory for Renault, but assuming Racing Point maintains form, it probably will not keep Renault in front of Racing Point by the end of the season.  (after penalty Renault is ahead 32-27)

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On 8/1/2020 at 10:30 AM, The Gator said:

It does not seem like it, but there are a number of great stories in this covid-cut-short season.

1.  Mercedes' dominance 

2.  Ferrari's fall 

3.  Racing Point's "design" team

4. McLaren's resurgence - looking forward to next season with Mercedes engines

5.  Williams has caught the back of the pack

6.  Verstappen continues to show he belongs in conversation for best driver

7.  George Russel continues to make strides as a young driver

This especially.  He's right there if he's not the best.

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Definite intrigue around the track these days.

First, the Racing Point decision is being appealed - by nearly every team except Racing Point (and Mercedes).  And, that makes sense - given that Racing Point will be allowed to continue with the illegal parts for the remainder of the season.  I can understand the frustration from the point of the competitors.  A 15-point penalty is almost nothing in terms of the advantage gained by Racing Point.  Last season RP averaged 3.5 points per race, this year its at 10.5 ppr - so effectively a penalty of 2 races, while RP keeps the advantage for 15-17 races (depending on schedule).

But, I think the tricky part is that it is potentially dangerous to have RP create a new brake duct system mid-season - that either might not work with the car's set-up, or, is made with the now current knowledge RP's engineers have of Mercedes 2019 rear brake ducts.  And, now you would not be able to distinguish between what came from Mercedes specs, and what came from RP engineers (who remembered Mercedes' specs).

The other teams are arguing that they are trying to get some clarity on what level of "copying" will be permitted.  Of course, one of the interesting aspects of "copying" is that its hard to be effective if you are just copying small parts or ideas from another team.  There are so many moving pieces that make car setups effective - that you can't simply swap out a front wing design from a competitor and expect it to sync up with your car - unless the rest of the aerodynamic set-up is the same/similar.  It almost has to be an all-or-nothing approach to "copying".

I do think the teams at the back of the pack, and who complain about not having enough money to compete, would do well to pick a top-team, and copy their set-up to use as a "catch-up" and then use their own engineering to try and build on the base concept for future cars.

 

The second story make the rounds is Mercedes making waves with the new deal with F1.  Outwardly, I think many people look at this as Mercedes complaining about the lower budgets, and how that could take away an advantage they had over most teams.  But I think this is more a Mercedes v. Ferrari issue - where the revenue distribution has always been tilted in favor of Ferrari - due to the historic support Ferrari bring to the series (i.e. a concern that if Ferrari left the series, many fans would leave also).  But, given that Ferrari have not won a constructors title since 2008, and that Mercedes have won the last 6, and on the way to a 7th - I think Mercedes are questioning how much of a revenue bump Ferrari should get relative to themselves.

I also think Mercedes are exploring leaving the series - despite Bottas signing an extension.  I don't have the sense that Mercedes F1 team are integral to the Mercedes business plan - such that they could continue to invest in other racing formats to continue innovative work on engines and whatnot.  And, they almost have nothing else to gain from F1.  One more season with the current rules, where Mercedes will be expected to dominate, before a bit of an unknown period under new rules/specs.  Maybe its better to go out on top.  

We will see who blinks first.

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Understandable but jarring to see Ferrari at 100/1 for each od their drivers to win today.  Same as Haas!

-QG

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Great strategy call from Red Bull yesterday - to qualify on the hards.  I am surprised Mercedes did not do this - given that this week's hards were the equivalent of mediums, and Mercedes have enough pace to get through to Q3 on a harder compound than the other teams.

There is a chink in Mercedes armor - they are clearly putting too much stress on the tires - via power and downforce (and track temperatures).  It will get lost in the fact that Mercedes are so far out in front - but in 3 tracks this year, Mercedes have had reliability issues at two of them - Austria (curbs) and now Silverstone.  Unfortunately for racing fans, Verstappen is the only driver who seems capable of taking advantage.  

I think Albon bought himself some more time at Red Bull with his drive today.

I don't know how much longer Ferrari should stick with Vettel.  He is not the same driver he was just a few years ago, let alone his title form.  If you heard any of the radio transmissions today, its clear there is no love lost, nor trust, between Vettel and the team, and I can't see it getting better over the rest of the season.  Maybe Ferrari should park him and bring in Hulkenberg for the rest of the season?

Racing Point picked up 14 points today, nearly off-setting the points penalty for using illegal parts.

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40 minutes ago, The Gator said:

 

There is a chink in Mercedes armor -

Whoa. Settle down there racist.

 

#weraceforall

:cool:

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Total F1 newb, here, but I'm not sure I see the upside of Ferrari bringing in a replacement just to finish the season.  Say that Niko does well and even breaks his podium duck.  That puts Saenz in a terrible position next season with absolutely no room to start slowly before people are calling for his head, right?

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15 minutes ago, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

Total F1 newb, here, but I'm not sure I see the upside of Ferrari bringing in a replacement just to finish the season.  Say that Niko does well and even breaks his podium duck.  That puts Saenz in a terrible position next season with absolutely no room to start slowly before people are calling for his head, right?

They won't be competitive next year either.

Ferrari are stuck until rule changes kick in in 2022.  They can't spend much engineering time on this car, with changes coming in 2022.

 

From the outside, looking in, it seems Vettel will be more disruptive within the garage, than neutral - and that could hurt Leclerc's development - better to have a driver working with the team, than seemingly working against them.

 

But - point taken about the potential impact on Sainz.  But, if Hulkenberg does well, he'll pick up a ride for next year - and then nobody looking over Sainz' shoulder while Ferrari slog through the season.

 

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Ferrari totally compromised Vettel's race strategy or at least what was left of it after his first turn spin.  They called him in early while he was on his best set of tires (new hards) so he didn't impede his teammate.  He had to run 16 laps on used mediums to the finish after only doing a 10 lap stint on the hards.   I guess they could have told Seb to exchange positions but that wouldn't have gone over any better.  That said, the Scuderia has nothing to gain if they dump Vettel.  There's nobody better available for a half season rental.  Hulkenberg has had 175+ GPs to demonstrate he's just a guy. 

What a year to have three rounds in Italy.

 

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Posted (edited)

That was a fun race today.   Did we get closure on a potential penalty on Hamilton speeding into the pits?

Edited by PIK95

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17 hours ago, PIK95 said:

That was a fun race today.   Did we get closure on a potential penalty on Hamilton speeding into the pits?

No violation.  FIA Race Control is very good about posting when drivers are under investigation during the broadcasts.

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The Sunday Formula 2 race saw Mick Schumacher taking out his teammate while battling for the lead in the closing laps.  Schumacher wasn't penalized and went on to finish 2nd but apologized profusely to his team during the cooldown lap. 

Ferrari academy driver Callum Illot leads the series and looks to be the only guy in this year's field who's ready for the next level.

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On 8/8/2020 at 8:48 AM, The Gator said:

The second story make the rounds is Mercedes making waves with the new deal with F1.  Outwardly, I think many people look at this as Mercedes complaining about the lower budgets, and how that could take away an advantage they had over most teams.  But I think this is more a Mercedes v. Ferrari issue - where the revenue distribution has always been tilted in favor of Ferrari - due to the historic support Ferrari bring to the series (i.e. a concern that if Ferrari left the series, many fans would leave also).  But, given that Ferrari have not won a constructors title since 2008, and that Mercedes have won the last 6, and on the way to a 7th - I think Mercedes are questioning how much of a revenue bump Ferrari should get relative to themselves.

I also think Mercedes are exploring leaving the series - despite Bottas signing an extension.  I don't have the sense that Mercedes F1 team are integral to the Mercedes business plan - such that they could continue to invest in other racing formats to continue innovative work on engines and whatnot.  And, they almost have nothing else to gain from F1.  One more season with the current rules, where Mercedes will be expected to dominate, before a bit of an unknown period under new rules/specs.  Maybe its better to go out on top.  

We will see who blinks first.

It looks like FIA blinked first:

 

Teams were in line to receive a bonus if they committed to F1 by 12 August, but that deadline has been moved back six days to allow time for more talks.

F1 said: "We have received some final small legal comments that are being considered so the early sign-on deadline has been moved to 18 August."

The final deadline for teams to commit remains the end of the month.

 

 

 

Mercedes have signed Bottas for another year (but not Hamilton, yet).  I would be shocked if Mercedes did not sign on for next season - but I don't think it will be a total shock if they backed out before 2022, unless they get some concessions.

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FIA announced plans to ban special qualifying engine mappings, aka party mode, in 2021.  I assume it's all in software but policing it will be another thing for the teams to argue about.

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Mercedes dominant in Friday practice with Max trailing by nearly a second.  Albon was way off of Verstappen's pace again.  It's probably in combination with Max's talent and the car tailored for his liking but his teammate in the second best car shouldn't be at the back of the midfield.

Haas was surprisingly quick with Grosjean P6 and P5 in the two practice sessions.  Williams was slowest this time.

The ban on quali modes has been fast tracked for Spa in two weeks.  It's anybody's guess who this will help or hurt but the Mercs will still be out front.

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So much for Haas finding pace.

Potentially the last qualifying session with different engine settings, and an unsurprising Hamilton, Bottas, Verstappen top-3.

Vettel has definitely lost that loving feeling.  Ferrari are not competitive, but Vettel is not really competitive with Leclerc (though ironically they start in line at P9/P11)

Williams made great strides to catch the back of the pack, but they seem to be losing pace to the field as the season progresses.

Renault still bitter about Racing Point.  Racing Point still better than Renault.

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Mercedes playing mind games - declare that Verstappen is the favorite for the race.

Honestly though, I don't think that kind of pressure impacts Verstappen.  He'd like to be seen as the favorite.

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8 hours ago, The Gator said:

So much for Haas finding pace.

Potentially the last qualifying session with different engine settings, and an unsurprising Hamilton, Bottas, Verstappen top-3.

Haas blames the difference between Friday and Saturday on the quali modes in the Ferrari PU.  I guess we'll see next week.  Renault is another team that struggled today compared to yesterday.

 

1 hour ago, The Gator said:

Mercedes playing mind games - declare that Verstappen is the favorite for the race.

Honestly though, I don't think that kind of pressure impacts Verstappen.  He'd like to be seen as the favorite.

I don't see it.  Mercedes has a 3/4 second advantage which is enough to make an extra pit stop if tire wear is an issue in the Catalaunian heat.

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I am not really a fan of Red Bull - but I really enjoy watching/listening to Verstappen.

I loved when he told his race engineer to stop worrying about Mercedes, and focus on Red Bull.

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Kind of a snoozer today.  Mercedes had the field covered and survived Bottas getting beaten to turn 2 by Stroll.  Lewis executed perfectly and deserved the win but lapping everyone except the podium positions is ridiculous.

The midfield battle was close but pretty boring without much passing.  The train couldn't even get by Vettel at the end when Seb was on 35 lap old softs. 

Nice drive by Kimi winning his race within a race

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Welcome back to race week!

  • F1 added Turkey, Bahrain (x2), and Abu Dhabi to round out a 17-race schedule.
     
  • Every team signed the Concorde Agreement (I think for 5 years).
     
  • Renault dropped its appeal of Racing Point's penalty - essentially conceding that its in everyone's best interest to move forward, and that new rules strongly discourage copy cat behavior.  No word from Ferrari (or Racing Point) on whether they will also drop their appeal.
     
  • Teams are now banned from changing engine modes during the weekend.  Ostensibly, this is to curb the advantage Mercedes get on their qualifying mode, but I expect this will help Mercedes more than the other teams on race day.

 

 

  

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Ferrari - legitimately slow car.  Lucky to get out of Q3, and well back in Q2.

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I was today years old when I realized how much I loved Spa.  What a great track and setting.

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On 8/9/2020 at 11:56 AM, Ramsay Hunt Experience said:

Total F1 newb, here, but I'm not sure I see the upside of Ferrari bringing in a replacement just to finish the season.  Say that Niko does well and even breaks his podium duck.  That puts Saenz in a terrible position next season with absolutely no room to start slowly before people are calling for his head, right?

There was a "funny" shot during the race yesterday as Sainz was watching a monitor in the garage, and the commentator pondered whether Sainz was more disappointed in not making the start of the race, or in what is happening to the Ferraris.

 

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The thing that sucks about watching this season is knowing Ferrari is going to suck again next year. I wish they would've just stuck with the new rules coming into effect when they were supposed to do so.

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3 minutes ago, jplvr said:

The thing that sucks about watching this season is knowing Ferrari is going to suck again next year. I wish they would've just stuck with the new rules coming into effect when they were supposed to do so.

All a matter of perspective...

 

I don't know the leadership hierarchy at Ferrari, or how entrenched Binotto is - but I think there should be a shake-up at some level at the end of the season. 

In each of the last two races, drivers have been frustrated with the race engineers on basic strategy questions - specifically whether they needed to be aggressive, or conservative with tire wear.  Certainly these things are always being evaluated with new data in the race, but it seemed, from both Vettel and Leclerc, that there was too much confusion.  

The loss of power is one issue, the tactics have seemingly gone wrong as another issue - at some point, you need to start looking at the people in charge.  After this week, at their more Grand Prix, they are likely to be 6th in the constructor's championship.  They will be thankful there are no supporters allowed at the track.

And, as you noted, the power issue will probably still be there next year, as they have to weigh development time on fixing that v. preparing for the new technical specs in 2022.

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The Williams are stepping away from Williams Racing

 

The Williams family will leave the team founded by Sir Frank Williams more than 40 years ago after this weekend's Italian Grand Prix.

Sir Frank founded Williams in 1977 and turned it into one of the sport's most successful teams.

But after a series of difficult years, the team was sold to US investment group Dorilton Capital last month.

Williams and his daughter Claire, the deputy team principal, are stepping down.

The team have won nine constructors' championships and seven drivers' titles, and dominated large portions of the 1980s and 1990s.

But their last win at a Grand Prix was in 2012 and for the past two seasons they have finished last in the championship. Financial losses last year led to the Williams family seeking new investment, and that in turn has led to them leaving the team to make way for new management.

Claire Williams said: "With the future of the team now secured, this feels like the appropriate time for us to step away from the sport.

"As a family, we have always prioritised Williams. We have demonstrated that by our recent actions with the strategic review process and we believe now is the right time to hand over the reins and give the new owners the opportunity to take the team into the future.

 

 

Its obviously been a tough few years for the team and the family, but I give credit for their perseverance to get back to the pack on the track, while also negotiating their own exit strategy.  @Eephus and others here who have followed the sport longer than I have will probably see this as more significant - but even for me, it feels a bit like a loss to see them leave the sport. 

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Interesting qualifying - probably as nice as I can put it.

No party mode, no problem.  The only question now will be reliability in the race if any of the teams had it dialed up too high for qualification.

It was kind of funny listening to the commentators talk about how teams were going to try and get a tow leading into the hot laps - but then watching Mercedes lead, with really no tow for either driver.  Bottas led out each qualifying lap, but Hamilton was far enough behind that he did not get a tow - and they still qualify 1-2, easily.

 

Also funny/interesting watching the teams hold their cars in the garages, with everyone playing a game of chicken not wanting to lead everyone out.  Only to then release everyone at once, which led to the congestion that everyone should have been trying to avoid...

 

The top of the Constructor's Race is over, but the fight for 3rd is shaping up nicely - with McLaren, Racing Point, Renault and even Ferrari all with in striking distance of each other - 9 points separating them.

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Worst race of the season for Mercedes - just a terrible decision by Hamilton's crew..  Still extended constructor's lead.

 

Fun finish though watching Gasly hold off Sainz.

 

ETA - Great scenes at the end with Gasly and his team

Edited by Sinn Fein
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On 8/1/2020 at 7:34 PM, zazale said:

Gasly deserves Red Bull's 2nd seat over Albon change my mind

 

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Another day of dull racing that was saved by the timing of the safety cars.  I'm American so I don't like the idea of working on cars during the red flag.  For a series that's so heavy on pit strategy, giving Stroll and others a free pit stop doesn't seem very sporting.  It's always great when someone other than the top three two wins, especially when it's by the Faenza team.  Giancarlo Minardi is smiling. 

Lewis was able to overtake backmarkers and everyone passed Raikkonen when his softs went away but other than that, it was a parade.  Bottas fell back at the start and couldn't make up any positions.  It'll probably be more of the same next week at Mugello.  It's a great track for bikes but I don't think expect much passing.  Maybe we'll see some side-by-side action in the long right hander at the end of the main straight.

It's sad to see the Williams family leaving F1.  Sir Frank was the last link back to the garagistas.  There are still lots of people in the garage who embody that spirit but they don't own F1 teams.

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22 hours ago, Eephus said:

Bottas fell back at the start and couldn't make up any positions. 

There was a comment in the race the alluded to this problem - the Mercedes cars are set up to lead, not to pass.

Even now with the Ferrari engines struggling, Mercedes' strength remains its speed in the corners and not the straightaways.  So, over the course of a lap, the can extend a lead, but its harder for them to overtake.  And, its not in Bottas' nature to be overly aggressive.

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All kinds of things in motion now - I guess some of these have been known:

1.  Sergio Perez is out at Racing Point at the end of the season - opening the door for Sebastian Vettel to move over from Ferrari

2.  Racing Point will be known as Aston Martin

3.  Renault will be changing names to Alpine - which is their niche sports car branch, and changing colors to a blue.

4.  Toto Wollf will be staying on at Mercedes for at least one more year - which almost certainly leads to Hamilton staying on at least one more year.

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3 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

All kinds of things in motion now - I guess some of these have been known:

1.  Sergio Perez is out at Racing Point at the end of the season - opening the door for Sebastian Vettel to move over from Ferrari

2.  Racing Point will be known as Aston Martin

3.  Renault will be changing names to Alpine - which is their niche sports car branch, and changing colors to a blue.

4.  Toto Wollf will be staying on at Mercedes for at least one more year - which almost certainly leads to Hamilton staying on at least one more year.

The silly season has been better than the real one.

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And confirmation:

 

Vettel, 33, is moving to the team currently known as Racing Point from Ferrari, who earlier this year decided not to offer the German a new contract.

Aston Martin said signing Vettel was "a clear statement of the team's ambition" to establish themselves at the front.

"It's a new adventure for me with a truly legendary car company," said Vettel, who replaces Sergio Perez.

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On 9/6/2020 at 11:17 AM, zazale said:
  On 8/1/2020 at 9:34 PM, zazale said:

Gasly deserves Red Bull's 2nd seat over Albon change my mind

:coffee:

 

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BTW - I like the 1-off livery for Ferrari this weekend. :shrug:

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7 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:

BTW - I like the 1-off livery for Ferrari this weekend. :shrug:

Maroon is just as slow as Marlboro red. 

If the Saturday F2 race is any indication, the only overtaking will be in the DRS zone heading into turn 1.  The F2 cars usually were able to complete the pass before the corner but there was occasional side-by-side action going up the hill to the chicane.  Even if tomorrow is a parade, I'm still sold on the Mugello circuit--the in-car shots from the second sector were just breathtaking.

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23 hours ago, Sinn Fein said:
On 9/6/2020 at 11:17 AM, zazale said:
  On 8/1/2020 at 9:34 PM, zazale said:

Gasly deserves Red Bull's 2nd seat over Albon change my mind

:coffee:

 

:goodposting:

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13 more cars to go til we get Russell's first win :excited:

congratulations if you bet under 15 finishers - at this rate the race will be over by the time the Bengals kick off at 4pm...maybe

-QG

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oh wait Latifi declared undead?  Maybe a chance at Williams 1-2 still? 

-QG

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7 minutes ago, QuizGuy66 said:

oh wait Latifi declared undead?  Maybe a chance at Williams 1-2 still? 

-QG

I think Latifi is out - he had a hole in his car when they rolled it back to the pits...

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Just now, Sinn Fein said:

I think Latifi is out - he had a hole in his car when they rolled it back to the pits...

yeah he is re-dead - just a glitch on thw scoring pylon for a moment.  And it sounds like Ocon is out too now.

-QG

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