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Cam Newton

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Blanket numbers don't tell the whole story, I've not liked a lot of what I've seen and PFF has data that I believe supports at least some of it. Will definitely dig into it more in the offseason though, we'll see how the next 3 weeks go.

Blanket numbers are the only kind of stat applied towards points in the leagues that I play in.
I believe there are a lot better ways to predict future performance than just the amount of yards, TD's, INT's, and fumbles a player accumulated in a given season. Can't earn points for production that's already done.
Past production is a very good indicator of future production. Likely the best. In his ONLY 2 NFL seasons, Newton has, or will, finish top 5. What do you look at that suggests that won't be a regular thing for him?

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Last year it was: "Cam stunk the 2nd half because defenses have figured him out"Now its: "Stunk the 1st half because he can't play when the pressure is on"

Just last week someone said something along the lines of: "RG3 is going to 'come back down to earth' when defenses figure him out - just like Cam."
Big RG3 fan and it's because I trust his head, comes back to the comfort factor. As he encounters hurdles I believe he will cross them, I don't think Cam will. Both have good deep balls (RG3's is better) and both are great runner's (but Cam is bigger), who are you more comfortable with? I think they have the same ceiling, but RG3's floor is much, much, much higher.
Point was that defenses purportedly figured out Cam, which they have not. It was not about RG3 being better or worse than Cam.

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If you think I said he won't do well then you're guilty of selective reading. My stance has always been I don't think the risk/reward is worth it given the alternatives, nothing's changed.

I have never suggested that your opinion has changed. I suggested that you're going out of your way to justify not changing your opinion. How risky would he need to be not to be ranked in the top 10 dynasty QBs? How much risk would there need to be to justify not valuing a 23 year old with a top 10 QB season ever, followed by another top 2-3 season? How much more upside does he need to display before we stop looking at his personality quirks and analyzing them, as if the NFL is just going to black ball him for pouting?Yet, you're claiming he is only playing well now because he is out of the playoff race and there is no pressure. Yet, last year, he had his best 4 game stretch EARLY in the season, when there would be pressure, right? I think that is selective criteria, right there.
Dynasty is completely different, I'm talking just for 2013. If he were the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th QB off the board as I was beginning to think he might be then I was going to consider taking the dive. I really don't want any part of him in dyno, not for what his owners will demand. Re, pressure. I don't think there wasn't pressure for him to produce early, people were excited but he was a special athlete with warts in most people's eyes coming out. If he had started off poorly and progressed as the season went on he would have been considered a year 1 success. Carolina had no playoff aspirations entering last year, so the pressure wasn't there early. It was more, show us what you can do kid, and he did. Then as expectations increased his play became more spotty and as the losses piled up his frustration could be seen, on and off the field. That carried over into the beginning of this year. It's just now going away. Is it because the pressure is off? or is he maturing? Depends what you thought about him a year or two ago. The optimists are going to trend towards maturing, those who were down on him like me aren't. It makes sense.Comfort factor is something I think more owners need to consider when picking players for your team. If Cam has a rough few games, has a blow up at a press conference, and has teammates talking behind his back you're going to stick with him whereas I am going to panic. I have dealt with Antonio Gates for years, lots of owners can't stomach the thought of it. Yes, he's special when he's on the field, but too often he's not and those 4 o clock west coast games drives some owners crazy. They aren't comfortable whereas I am, take the good with the bad, and make sure I always have a plan B on standby. Finally burned me this year, but he gave me 5 good years and two titles, I'd say that's worth it. I was also willing to deal with the headaches, don't think I would be with Cam, and it really comes down to the alternatives at the QB position. They are plentiful whereas at TE they usually are not.
It's hard to take your pressure statements seriously. The guys in the locker room thought the playoffs were a possibility last season; Newton did. You're being very selective and subjective in where you apply criteria. It seems like you're willing to do whatever you need to do to justify your stance on him. It's so easy to take a stretch where Newton is struggling and apply simple blanket logic: defenses figured him out, he buckled under the pressure, he's hit a plateau, he's regressing. When taking a deeper look, it is very simple to see why Newton struggled. Just take a look at the rushing numbers, or the number of times the Panthers were in 3rd and long. Look at the play calling, where it failed, and where they changed it, and the results of each. Edited by Concept Coop

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I believe there are a lot better ways to predict future performance than just the amount of yards, TD's, INT's, and fumbles a player accumulated in a given season. Can't earn points for production that's already done.

this is rich

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Blanket numbers don't tell the whole story, I've not liked a lot of what I've seen and PFF has data that I believe supports at least some of it. Will definitely dig into it more in the offseason though, we'll see how the next 3 weeks go.

Blanket numbers are the only kind of stat applied towards points in the leagues that I play in.
I believe there are a lot better ways to predict future performance than just the amount of yards, TD's, INT's, and fumbles a player accumulated in a given season. Can't earn points for production that's already done.
Past production is a very good indicator of future production. Likely the best. In his ONLY 2 NFL seasons, Newton has, or will, finish top 5. What do you look at that suggests that won't be a regular thing for him?
I'll analyze during the offseason, last time I looked through PFF midseason before the trade deadline's in my leagues I ntoiced a lot of bad indicators - 2nd down, 3rd down, and the deep ball stick out iirc. We'll see if those red flags changed as he improved on the surface towards the end of the season a/o if others emerged - good or bad. More concerned about my playoff lineup's than digging into the details of Cam's game right now, statistically anyway.

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Last year it was: "Cam stunk the 2nd half because defenses have figured him out"Now its: "Stunk the 1st half because he can't play when the pressure is on"

Just last week someone said something along the lines of: "RG3 is going to 'come back down to earth' when defenses figure him out - just like Cam."
Big RG3 fan and it's because I trust his head, comes back to the comfort factor. As he encounters hurdles I believe he will cross them, I don't think Cam will. Both have good deep balls (RG3's is better) and both are great runner's (but Cam is bigger), who are you more comfortable with? I think they have the same ceiling, but RG3's floor is much, much, much higher.
Point was that defenses purportedly figured out Cam, which they have not. It was not about RG3 being better or worse than Cam.
Never was my take, but you have a point to those that did believe that.

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I'll analyze during the offseason, last time I looked through PFF midseason before the trade deadline's in my leagues I ntoiced a lot of bad indicators - 2nd down, 3rd down, and the deep ball stick out iirc. We'll see if those red flags changed as he improved on the surface towards the end of the season a/o if others emerged - good or bad. More concerned about my playoff lineup's than digging into the details of Cam's game right now, statistically anyway.

:confused:

#1 in YPA

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If you think I said he won't do well then you're guilty of selective reading. My stance has always been I don't think the risk/reward is worth it given the alternatives, nothing's changed.

I have never suggested that your opinion has changed. I suggested that you're going out of your way to justify not changing your opinion.

How risky would he need to be not to be ranked in the top 10 dynasty QBs? How much risk would there need to be to justify not valuing a 23 year old with a top 10 QB season ever, followed by another top 2-3 season? How much more upside does he need to display before we stop looking at his personality quirks and analyzing them, as if the NFL is just going to black ball him for pouting?

Yet, you're claiming he is only playing well now because he is out of the playoff race and there is no pressure. Yet, last year, he had his best 4 game stretch EARLY in the season, when there would be pressure, right? I think that is selective criteria, right there.

Dynasty is completely different, I'm talking just for 2013. If he were the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th QB off the board as I was beginning to think he might be then I was going to consider taking the dive. I really don't want any part of him in dyno, not for what his owners will demand.

Re, pressure. I don't think there wasn't pressure for him to produce early, people were excited but he was a special athlete with warts in most people's eyes coming out. If he had started off poorly and progressed as the season went on he would have been considered a year 1 success. Carolina had no playoff aspirations entering last year, so the pressure wasn't there early. It was more, show us what you can do kid, and he did. Then as expectations increased his play became more spotty and as the losses piled up his frustration could be seen, on and off the field. That carried over into the beginning of this year. It's just now going away. Is it because the pressure is off? or is he maturing? Depends what you thought about him a year or two ago. The optimists are going to trend towards maturing, those who were down on him like me aren't. It makes sense.

Comfort factor is something I think more owners need to consider when picking players for your team. If Cam has a rough few games, has a blow up at a press conference, and has teammates talking behind his back you're going to stick with him whereas I am going to panic. I have dealt with Antonio Gates for years, lots of owners can't stomach the thought of it. Yes, he's special when he's on the field, but too often he's not and those 4 o clock west coast games drives some owners crazy. They aren't comfortable whereas I am, take the good with the bad, and make sure I always have a plan B on standby. Finally burned me this year, but he gave me 5 good years and two titles, I'd say that's worth it. I was also willing to deal with the headaches, don't think I would be with Cam, and it really comes down to the alternatives at the QB position. They are plentiful whereas at TE they usually are not.

It's hard to take your pressure statements seriously. The guys in the locker room thought the playoffs were a possibility last season; Newton did. You're being very selective and subjective in where you apply criteria. It seems like you're willing to do whatever you need to do to justify your stance on him.

It's so easy to take a stretch where Newton is struggling and apply simple blanket logic: defenses figured him out, he buckled under the pressure, he's hit a plateau, he's regressing.

When taking a deeper look, it is very simple to see why Newton struggled. Just take a look at the rushing numbers, or the number of times the Panthers were in 3rd and long. Look at the play calling, where it failed, and where they changed it, and the results of each.

No one on the Panthers seriously thought playoffs were a possibility last year, please correct me if I'm wrong though. They weren't ever in contention.

Again, you had a certain pre-determined opinion on Cam and so do I. I UNDERSTAND why you defend him, you were high on him and see the positives. I wasn't and see the negatives. There's cases to be made to defend both sides.

The one issue I take is why you think the Panthers were consistently in 3rd and long. I blame the play calling for some of those, but not everything. Have noticed Cam frequently taking shots downfield when they aren't there on 2nd and long instead of taking the check down to create a more manageable 3rd down. He is as much to blame for the 3rd and long issues as Chud. Him not succeeding consistently at 3rd and long is another big issue too. Good QB's make their money in the clutch, red zone, and on 3rd down. Cam has to make those plays (3rd down and in the clutch) if he's going to be a good QB, to date he hasn't. I believe he has a good success rate in the red zone though.

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I'll analyze during the offseason, last time I looked through PFF midseason before the trade deadline's in my leagues I ntoiced a lot of bad indicators - 2nd down, 3rd down, and the deep ball stick out iirc. We'll see if those red flags changed as he improved on the surface towards the end of the season a/o if others emerged - good or bad. More concerned about my playoff lineup's than digging into the details of Cam's game right now, statistically anyway.

:confused:

#1 in YPA

One of hundreds pieces of the puzzle, it's an important one but doesn't explain his deficiencies. And the deep ball issues aren't YPA driven they were success rate driven. Again, don't remember off the top of my head and will re-visit when I look at everyone in the offseason but he had several bad indicators which support what I've seen.

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That carried over into the beginning of this year. It's just now going away. Is it because the pressure is off? or is he maturing? Depends what you thought about him a year or two ago. The optimists are going to trend towards maturing, those who were down on him like me aren't. It makes sense.

This actually makes very little sense. What you saw in him last year really shouldn't have any impact as to what you see now. What you see now is what you see. Bringing in a preconceived notion only clouds the picture. Again, I think the "pressure off" is nonsense. These teams aren't playing their 3rd and 4th string scrubs against the Panthers because their record sucks. You have a few pieces of information in front of you that allow you to draw conclusions about him and where he stands.

1. The team is much more receptive of him now.

2. He's not making mistakes and is pretty even keeled.

3. The offensive play calling has changed significantly.

Those things don't change regardless of what you thought of him last year.

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No one on the Panthers seriously thought playoffs were a possibility last year, please correct me if I'm wrong though. They weren't ever in contention.

How can we know this? How do you know they had them this year, but not last? When he played well early last year, it was because there was no pressure. When he struggled early this year, it is because there was pressure?Do you realize how big of a jump we are making, but assuming this? Of the countless factors that went into things, you've boiled it down to this. We can look at Cam's time at Auburn while talking about how he deals with pressure, no? He had his biggest games in the biggest moments, and won an SEC championship game with a scandal surrounding him. He trailed Bama - the 2nd best team in the nation - 21-0 at the half, and won. I wouldn't dispute the notion that he hasn't handled losing well. But pressure, as it would lead to in game performance, I highly dispute that.

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That carried over into the beginning of this year. It's just now going away. Is it because the pressure is off? or is he maturing? Depends what you thought about him a year or two ago. The optimists are going to trend towards maturing, those who were down on him like me aren't. It makes sense.

This actually makes very little sense. What you saw in him last year really shouldn't have any impact as to what you see now. What you see now is what you see. Bringing in a preconceived notion only clouds the picture. Again, I think the "pressure off" is nonsense. These teams aren't playing their 3rd and 4th string scrubs against the Panthers because their record sucks. You have a few pieces of information in front of you that allow you to draw conclusions about him and where he stands.

1. The team is much more receptive of him now.

2. He's not making mistakes and is pretty even keeled.

3. The offensive play calling has changed significantly.

Those things don't change regardless of what you thought of him last year.

But if next year starts off like this year and Cam responds similarly, what happens then? Can't see the team getting behind him again after another meltdown, he's walking on thin ice and can't afford to slip up again.

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The one issue I take is why you think the Panthers were consistently in 3rd and long. I blame the play calling for some of those, but not everything. Have noticed Cam frequently taking shots downfield when they aren't there on 2nd and long instead of taking the check down to create a more manageable 3rd down. He is as much to blame for the 3rd and long issues as Chud. Him not succeeding consistently at 3rd and long is another big issue too. Good QB's make their money in the clutch, red zone, and on 3rd down. Cam has to make those plays (3rd down and in the clutch) if he's going to be a good QB, to date he hasn't. I believe he has a good success rate in the red zone though.

From the very first snap Cam took with Carolina you could feel that the team could only win if Cam capitalized on every offensive opportunity. Lack of checking down is something Cam recognizes as a fault and he does talk often about improving on it.Other than lack of checkdowns, Panthers are in 3rd and long often because:1) can't run the ball2) when they can't run the ball many times its a fairly big loss in the backfield because they ran the read option often3) untimely penalties

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Lets face it guys. Cam is a rare talent. An elite athlete. But a winner is made up of the elite rate physical talent plus the mental make up. If he displayed similar character qualities to rgIII I don't think anyone would be doubting him. They would be blaming the coaching and play calling a lot more. Newton has the potential to be the best qb the nfl has ever seen if he keeps his head on right. Or he has the potential to be the next Jamarcus russel or Ryan leaf if he doesn't. I'm a fan of his and he is the anchor of my dynasty team. But I can understand where all the criticism comes from. Forget about the few games where he looked horrible this year. So what he made some errant throws and threw a few ints? Brees threw FIVE ints v atl 2 weeks ago before cam torches them. Does that make Brees a bad qb or a great qb who had a bad game? Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Eli...all of the best qbs put up stinkers here and there. I am sure that Rodgers owners are not too happy after last night. It's all about newtons character for me. He has proven that he can dominate at the nfl level.

Those that compare him to Russell and Ryan need to take deeper look. It's a lazy, simple comparison, in my opinion. Ryan Leaf and Jemarcus Russell didn't care enough about football or winning to be great. Call Cam what you want, but he clearly does. Ryan Leaf blew off a meeting with the Indianapolis Colts, who very well could have drafted him number 1 overall. Cam Newton showed up at the combine, when the other top option didn't, to compete and try to answer questions. Newton is a hard worker that hates losing. Leaf and Russell were too apathetic about playing football for a living to even stay in the league. Compare him to Jay Cutler or Philip Rivers, if you'd like. But this is really what it comes down to: if Newton is good enough to win games, his personality will be used as the reason for it. If he isn't, same thing. Ben Roethlisberger, AFTER winning a Super Bowl, had teammates publically calling him out for lack of leadership; they said he cared more about his motorcycles than his teammates. A second Super bowl, and 2 trips later, what do his teammates have to say? From a fantasy perspective, I think it's a bit silly to analyze these guys' personalities to this degree. "Selfish, towel wearing, gum chewing, superman-ing points" count just as much as Tom Brady points in my league.ETA: Not really directed at the quoted. The Russel/Leaf mention just prompted me to share my opinion on the matter.
Good posting

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That carried over into the beginning of this year. It's just now going away. Is it because the pressure is off? or is he maturing? Depends what you thought about him a year or two ago. The optimists are going to trend towards maturing, those who were down on him like me aren't. It makes sense.

This actually makes very little sense. What you saw in him last year really shouldn't have any impact as to what you see now. What you see now is what you see. Bringing in a preconceived notion only clouds the picture. Again, I think the "pressure off" is nonsense. These teams aren't playing their 3rd and 4th string scrubs against the Panthers because their record sucks. You have a few pieces of information in front of you that allow you to draw conclusions about him and where he stands.

1. The team is much more receptive of him now.

2. He's not making mistakes and is pretty even keeled.

3. The offensive play calling has changed significantly.

Those things don't change regardless of what you thought of him last year.

But if next year starts off like this year and Cam responds similarly, what happens then? Can't see the team getting behind him again after another meltdown, he's walking on thin ice and can't afford to slip up again.
Now you're into the "what if" game :shrug: What if he doesn't do those things and continues to grow? What if he goes through 5 years of growth and then responds negatively sometime in the future? Edited by The Commish

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I'll analyze during the offseason, last time I looked through PFF midseason before the trade deadline's in my leagues I ntoiced a lot of bad indicators - 2nd down, 3rd down, and the deep ball stick out iirc. We'll see if those red flags changed as he improved on the surface towards the end of the season a/o if others emerged - good or bad. More concerned about my playoff lineup's than digging into the details of Cam's game right now, statistically anyway.

:confused:

#1 in YPA

One of hundreds pieces of the puzzle, it's an important one but doesn't explain his deficiencies. And the deep ball issues aren't YPA driven they were success rate driven. Again, don't remember off the top of my head and will re-visit when I look at everyone in the offseason but he had several bad indicators which support what I've seen.
How is YPA not somewhat an analysis of the success rate of the deep ball?

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No one on the Panthers seriously thought playoffs were a possibility last year, please correct me if I'm wrong though. They weren't ever in contention.

How can we know this? How do you know they had them this year, but not last? When he played well early last year, it was because there was no pressure. When he struggled early this year, it is because there was pressure?Do you realize how big of a jump we are making, but assuming this? Of the countless factors that went into things, you've boiled it down to this. We can look at Cam's time at Auburn while talking about how he deals with pressure, no? He had his biggest games in the biggest moments, and won an SEC championship game with a scandal surrounding him. He trailed Bama - the 2nd best team in the nation - 21-0 at the half, and won. I wouldn't dispute the notion that he hasn't handled losing well. But pressure, as it would lead to in game performance, I highly dispute that.
I don't know how else to explain my takeon when there's pressure and when there wasn't, especially if you think Carolina thought they were a legit playoff team entering last year. Pressure is rarely on a rookie the first month of the season, especially one on a bad team, once proven successful pressure increases. A good rookie season leads to high expectations on an improving team, responding with a 2-7 start or whatever it was quickly cools off those expectations as eyes go towards next year. He succeeded in the two windows without the expectations. Why?Re college, lets try to stick to the pros please. College battles are usually won by the best athletes, the best athletes can overwhelm an opponent because they are just better. The playing field is much more level in the pros, he just can't rely on raw athleticism like he did in college. It's different. There's a can of worms that can be opened about this that won't do any good to this discussion.

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That carried over into the beginning of this year. It's just now going away. Is it because the pressure is off? or is he maturing? Depends what you thought about him a year or two ago. The optimists are going to trend towards maturing, those who were down on him like me aren't. It makes sense.

This actually makes very little sense. What you saw in him last year really shouldn't have any impact as to what you see now. What you see now is what you see. Bringing in a preconceived notion only clouds the picture. Again, I think the "pressure off" is nonsense. These teams aren't playing their 3rd and 4th string scrubs against the Panthers because their record sucks. You have a few pieces of information in front of you that allow you to draw conclusions about him and where he stands.

1. The team is much more receptive of him now.

2. He's not making mistakes and is pretty even keeled.

3. The offensive play calling has changed significantly.

Those things don't change regardless of what you thought of him last year.

But if next year starts off like this year and Cam responds similarly, what happens then? Can't see the team getting behind him again after another meltdown, he's walking on thin ice and can't afford to slip up again.
Now you're into the "what if" game :shrug: What if he doesn't do those things and continues to grow? What if he goes through 5 years of growth and then responds negatively sometime in the future?
...and I expect Cam optimists to be on your side of the fence and pessimists to not. I don't trust his head, you do. I expect him to crack at more signs of adversity, you don't. Fully reasonable to think he's turned the corner, lots of cases to point to with head cases that says he regresses. It's a risk, a risk I was willing to take in 2013 redrafts if his 2012 continued like it did the first two months, not anymore though.

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I'll analyze during the offseason, last time I looked through PFF midseason before the trade deadline's in my leagues I ntoiced a lot of bad indicators - 2nd down, 3rd down, and the deep ball stick out iirc. We'll see if those red flags changed as he improved on the surface towards the end of the season a/o if others emerged - good or bad. More concerned about my playoff lineup's than digging into the details of Cam's game right now, statistically anyway.

:confused:

#1 in YPA

One of hundreds pieces of the puzzle, it's an important one but doesn't explain his deficiencies. And the deep ball issues aren't YPA driven they were success rate driven. Again, don't remember off the top of my head and will re-visit when I look at everyone in the offseason but he had several bad indicators which support what I've seen.
How is YPA not somewhat an analysis of the success rate of the deep ball?
1st sentence.

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You aren't watching the tape if you think Cam's issues are with the deep ball. Its his intermediate stuff that needs the work.

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...and I expect Cam optimists to be on your side of the fence and pessimists to not. I don't trust his head, you do. I expect him to crack at more signs of adversity, you don't. Fully reasonable to think he's turned the corner, lots of cases to point to with head cases that says he regresses. It's a risk, a risk I was willing to take in 2013 redrafts if his 2012 continued like it did the first two months, not anymore though.

At the very least, do you have examples of Cam-like personalities or actions leading to a player being out of the league?I see your concerns, as you stated, but what do you think they lead to?

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You aren't watching the tape if you think Cam's issues are with the deep ball. Its his intermediate stuff that needs the work.

Intermediate's not good either, anything over 15 yards is usually an adventure, except in cases like the Philly game in which DB's just forgot to cover people. I've watched Giants, Falcons round 1, Seahawks, Bears, Broncos, and Eagles are the games I've watched beginning to end. God awful, better but spotty - numbers > performance, God awful round 2, God awful round 3, not good, and my God the Eagles are awful are the summaries of those games. Looking through the game log he has abused his last 3 opponents with awful defenses and put up big #'s against Atlanta in an up and down performance, otherwise his fantasy production (noting the games I didn't actually watch, only read up on) is a result of his rushing numbers, not his QB performance. Long term, that's not encouraging.

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Looking through the game log he has abused his last 3 opponents with awful defenses and put up big #'s against Atlanta in an up and down performance, otherwise his fantasy production (noting the games I didn't actually watch, only read up on) is a result of his rushing numbers, not his QB performance. Long term, that's not encouraging.

In the context of rookie/2nd year numbers, what would encourage you? If following up rookie PASSING records with a solid second season isn't, what is?In the other Newton thread, it was pointed out (back when he was struggling, no less) that he was still measuring up to the 2nd years of guys like Ben, Ryan, Brees, etcetera. In the context of his experience, I have a hard time understanding those suggesting his passing numbers and performance leave much to be desired.

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You aren't watching the tape if you think Cam's issues are with the deep ball. Its his intermediate stuff that needs the work.

Intermediate's not good either, anything over 15 yards is usually an adventure, except in cases like the Philly game in which DB's just forgot to cover people. I've watched Giants, Falcons round 1, Seahawks, Bears, Broncos, and Eagles are the games I've watched beginning to end. God awful, better but spotty - numbers > performance, God awful round 2, God awful round 3, not good, and my God the Eagles are awful are the summaries of those games.

Looking through the game log he has abused his last 3 opponents with awful defenses and put up big #'s against Atlanta in an up and down performance, otherwise his fantasy production (noting the games I didn't actually watch, only read up on) is a result of his rushing numbers, not his QB performance. Long term, that's not encouraging.

:shock:

Atlanta was an up and down performance?

ESPN tabbed his 98QBR as the second best QBR performance of the year behind only Brady's 304 4td vs STL

Last week Brees put up a 28QBR vs Atlanta

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...and I expect Cam optimists to be on your side of the fence and pessimists to not. I don't trust his head, you do. I expect him to crack at more signs of adversity, you don't. Fully reasonable to think he's turned the corner, lots of cases to point to with head cases that says he regresses. It's a risk, a risk I was willing to take in 2013 redrafts if his 2012 continued like it did the first two months, not anymore though.

At the very least, do you have examples of Cam-like personalities or actions leading to a player being out of the league?I see your concerns, as you stated, but what do you think they lead to?
People who have extreme hot and cold tendencies like Cam often flame out in ugly ways. Warning signs are all there - robbery in college, turned off college teammates and coaches gave up on him, kicked off team, knocked down a peg to JUCO, accepts improper benefits to come back to school (not learning his lesson), carries himself like he's hot shot in the process, gets drafted #1 then spends the next year turning off teammates and being called a clown by others in the NFL because of how he carries himself, handles losing very badly, quickly blames others because the team isn't coming through instead of looking himself in the mirror.Someone had a talking to him, don't know who and I don't know when, and it's having an effect on him. right now. But will it maintain? Often times in cases like his he will just regress to the guy he's always been, one that thinks he's bigger than everyone else and blames others for the team's short coming's. Teammates are giving him a chance right now to show he's changed, but they will turn on him in an instant if he takes a step back again. How will Cam respond if everyone's against him again? Fragile people breakdown. How fragile is Cam?Again, a worst case scenario, but not an unreasonable outcome. Do you see any of these red flags in RG3? Luck? Kaepernick? Russel Wilson? Obviously the great veteran QB's are passed it. There's just so many alternatives how much is it worth to risk on an unstable guy like Cam? Why I brought up the comfort factor earlier. He could be the next great thing and break everyone's records or he could be the next great flame out. I'd rather roll the dice on a QB I'm not worried about upstairs, it's kept me away from Vince Young and Jamarcus, just don't feel comfortable with QB's in which I don't trust their head.

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You aren't watching the tape if you think Cam's issues are with the deep ball. Its his intermediate stuff that needs the work.

Intermediate's not good either, anything over 15 yards is usually an adventure, except in cases like the Philly game in which DB's just forgot to cover people. I've watched Giants, Falcons round 1, Seahawks, Bears, Broncos, and Eagles are the games I've watched beginning to end. God awful, better but spotty - numbers > performance, God awful round 2, God awful round 3, not good, and my God the Eagles are awful are the summaries of those games.

Looking through the game log he has abused his last 3 opponents with awful defenses and put up big #'s against Atlanta in an up and down performance, otherwise his fantasy production (noting the games I didn't actually watch, only read up on) is a result of his rushing numbers, not his QB performance. Long term, that's not encouraging.

:shock:

Atlanta was an up and down performance?

ESPN tabbed his 98QBR as the second best QBR performance of the year behind only Brady's 304 4td vs STL

Last week Brees put up a 28QBR vs Atlanta

IIRC he benefited from 2 or 3 huge plays, but also had several stalled drives on his shoulders too. Made the big plays, but not the ones to keep drives alive. That's why I said up and down.

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IIRC he benefited from 2 or 3 huge plays, but also had several stalled drives on his shoulders too. Made the big plays, but not the ones to keep drives alive. That's why I said up and down.

Several stalled drives? Like the Packers last night? What does that say about Rodgers? Should I be worried? Sell? And Matt Ryan and Drew Brees too.

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Looking through the game log he has abused his last 3 opponents with awful defenses and put up big #'s against Atlanta in an up and down performance, otherwise his fantasy production (noting the games I didn't actually watch, only read up on) is a result of his rushing numbers, not his QB performance. Long term, that's not encouraging.

In the context of rookie/2nd year numbers, what would encourage you? If following up rookie PASSING records with a solid second season isn't, what is?In the other Newton thread, it was pointed out (back when he was struggling, no less) that he was still measuring up to the 2nd years of guys like Ben, Ryan, Brees, etcetera. In the context of his experience, I have a hard time understanding those suggesting his passing numbers and performance leave much to be desired.
I've never been one to take other player's numbers and compare them vs. others to come to a conclusion, don't think that's a good way to determine future success. For every Eli Manning there are 19 David Carr's. You have to take all the pros and negatives about a player then continue to re-evaluate them vs. what they have done to see if they're progressing.

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You aren't watching the tape if you think Cam's issues are with the deep ball. Its his intermediate stuff that needs the work.

Intermediate's not good either, anything over 15 yards is usually an adventure, except in cases like the Philly game in which DB's just forgot to cover people. I've watched Giants, Falcons round 1, Seahawks, Bears, Broncos, and Eagles are the games I've watched beginning to end. God awful, better but spotty - numbers > performance, God awful round 2, God awful round 3, not good, and my God the Eagles are awful are the summaries of those games.

Looking through the game log he has abused his last 3 opponents with awful defenses and put up big #'s against Atlanta in an up and down performance, otherwise his fantasy production (noting the games I didn't actually watch, only read up on) is a result of his rushing numbers, not his QB performance. Long term, that's not encouraging.

:shock:

Atlanta was an up and down performance?

ESPN tabbed his 98QBR as the second best QBR performance of the year behind only Brady's 304 4td vs STL

Last week Brees put up a 28QBR vs Atlanta

IIRC he benefited from 2 or 3 huge plays, but also had several stalled drives on his shoulders too. Made the big plays, but not the ones to keep drives alive. That's why I said up and down.
Thats pretty much false

First drive, 11plays 77 yards, TD in 7:11

2nd drive, 17 plays 72 yards, FG 9:17

3rd drive, 7 plays 31 yards, FG in 3:45

4th drive, 13 plays 64 yards, FG in 3:35

5th drive, 4 plays 86 yards, TD in 2:08

6th drive, 4 plays 22 yards, punt in 2:10

7th drive, 9 plays 37 yards, punt in 4:40

8th drive, 4 plays 60 yards, TD in 2:08

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IIRC he benefited from 2 or 3 huge plays, but also had several stalled drives on his shoulders too. Made the big plays, but not the ones to keep drives alive. That's why I said up and down.

Several stalled drives? Like the Packers last night? What does that say about Rodgers? Should I be worried? Sell? And Matt Ryan and Drew Brees too.
Unfair to compare Rodgers and Brees to Cam, so much great in their samples to reference. Re their recent struggles I think Brees just misses Payton, Rodgers' recent issues are a product of defenses forcing the Packers to run based on their defensive schemes. I wonder if the Packers finally figured it out last night, big TD drive in the 2nd half done completely on the ground. They've been running more recently and with success, curious to see what happens in the next 3 games. I'm not convinced Matt Ryan is a better dice roll than Cam, so won't argue there. Upside is obviously lower, but is it high enough to justify him over a riskier Cam? Not sure, something I'll look into this offseason.

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I've never been one to take other player's numbers and compare them vs. others to come to a conclusion, don't think that's a good way to determine future success. For every Eli Manning there are 19 David Carr's. You have to take all the pros and negatives about a player then continue to re-evaluate them vs. what they have done to see if they're progressing.

This makes no sense. You're going so far out of your way to bend criteria to make him look bad."It doesn't matter that he's had one of the best PASSING two year stretches for a rookie/2nd year plaer; better than many who went on to be great."Your criteria is as fluid as you need it to be to make your point; when it doesn't, it's discarded. There is nothing solid you're bringing to the conversation. I would be interested in hearing from someone that questions Newton's production with rational, concrete criteria. But, I'll need to keep looking, apparently. Edited by Concept Coop

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Thats pretty much falseFirst drive, 11plays 77 yards, TD in 7:112nd drive, 17 plays 72 yards, FG 9:173rd drive, 7 plays 31 yards, FG in 3:454th drive, 13 plays 64 yards, FG in 3:355th drive, 4 plays 86 yards, TD in 2:086th drive, 4 plays 22 yards, punt in 2:107th drive, 9 plays 37 yards, punt in 4:408th drive, 4 plays 60 yards, TD in 2:08

But they punted twice!! :lmao:

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You aren't watching the tape if you think Cam's issues are with the deep ball. Its his intermediate stuff that needs the work.

Intermediate's not good either, anything over 15 yards is usually an adventure, except in cases like the Philly game in which DB's just forgot to cover people. I've watched Giants, Falcons round 1, Seahawks, Bears, Broncos, and Eagles are the games I've watched beginning to end. God awful, better but spotty - numbers > performance, God awful round 2, God awful round 3, not good, and my God the Eagles are awful are the summaries of those games.

Looking through the game log he has abused his last 3 opponents with awful defenses and put up big #'s against Atlanta in an up and down performance, otherwise his fantasy production (noting the games I didn't actually watch, only read up on) is a result of his rushing numbers, not his QB performance. Long term, that's not encouraging.

:shock:

Atlanta was an up and down performance?

ESPN tabbed his 98QBR as the second best QBR performance of the year behind only Brady's 304 4td vs STL

Last week Brees put up a 28QBR vs Atlanta

IIRC he benefited from 2 or 3 huge plays, but also had several stalled drives on his shoulders too. Made the big plays, but not the ones to keep drives alive. That's why I said up and down.
Thats pretty much false

First drive, 11plays 77 yards, TD in 7:11

2nd drive, 17 plays 72 yards, FG 9:17

3rd drive, 7 plays 31 yards, FG in 3:45

4th drive, 13 plays 64 yards, FG in 3:35

5th drive, 4 plays 86 yards, TD in 2:08

6th drive, 4 plays 22 yards, punt in 2:10

7th drive, 9 plays 37 yards, punt in 4:40

8th drive, 4 plays 60 yards, TD in 2:08

Wrong Falcons game, didn't watch yesterday's, probably will on Rewind this week though.

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I've never been one to take other player's numbers and compare them vs. others to come to a conclusion, don't think that's a good way to determine future success. For every Eli Manning there are 19 David Carr's. You have to take all the pros and negatives about a player then continue to re-evaluate them vs. what they have done to see if they're progressing.

This makes no sense.
Why?

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:

Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.

Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

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Unfair to compare Rodgers and Brees to Cam

:lmao:
Because it's crazy to compare veteran Super Bowl champions in or possibly in the end of their prime to an inconsistent 2nd year player?

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.

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That carried over into the beginning of this year. It's just now going away. Is it because the pressure is off? or is he maturing? Depends what you thought about him a year or two ago. The optimists are going to trend towards maturing, those who were down on him like me aren't. It makes sense.

This actually makes very little sense. What you saw in him last year really shouldn't have any impact as to what you see now. What you see now is what you see. Bringing in a preconceived notion only clouds the picture. Again, I think the "pressure off" is nonsense. These teams aren't playing their 3rd and 4th string scrubs against the Panthers because their record sucks. You have a few pieces of information in front of you that allow you to draw conclusions about him and where he stands.

1. The team is much more receptive of him now.

2. He's not making mistakes and is pretty even keeled.

3. The offensive play calling has changed significantly.

Those things don't change regardless of what you thought of him last year.

But if next year starts off like this year and Cam responds similarly, what happens then? Can't see the team getting behind him again after another meltdown, he's walking on thin ice and can't afford to slip up again.
Now you're into the "what if" game :shrug: What if he doesn't do those things and continues to grow? What if he goes through 5 years of growth and then responds negatively sometime in the future?
...and I expect Cam optimists to be on your side of the fence and pessimists to not. I don't trust his head, you do. I expect him to crack at more signs of adversity, you don't. Fully reasonable to think he's turned the corner, lots of cases to point to with head cases that says he regresses. It's a risk, a risk I was willing to take in 2013 redrafts if his 2012 continued like it did the first two months, not anymore though.
I don't have a side of the fence. I don't play the "what if" game when I can avoid it. I'm interested in the "head cases" you are talking about that allow you to assume one way or the other about Cam though. I am also interested in what you "see" in him that allows you to assume he's going to regress.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Why is it ok to compare him to Luck and RG3? Both those guys had to deal with failure a lot more than Cam did. They learned their lessons earlier. Cam is learning his lessons now. You seem to think he's not learning, so I'm interested in the evidence that allows you to believe that.

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Wrong Falcons game, didn't watch yesterday's, probably will on Rewind this week though.

"If you don’t like Cam Newton after watching him on Sunday against the Falcons, it says more about you than it does about him."

My link

Edited by FDC

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That carried over into the beginning of this year. It's just now going away. Is it because the pressure is off? or is he maturing? Depends what you thought about him a year or two ago. The optimists are going to trend towards maturing, those who were down on him like me aren't. It makes sense.

This actually makes very little sense. What you saw in him last year really shouldn't have any impact as to what you see now. What you see now is what you see. Bringing in a preconceived notion only clouds the picture. Again, I think the "pressure off" is nonsense. These teams aren't playing their 3rd and 4th string scrubs against the Panthers because their record sucks. You have a few pieces of information in front of you that allow you to draw conclusions about him and where he stands.

1. The team is much more receptive of him now.

2. He's not making mistakes and is pretty even keeled.

3. The offensive play calling has changed significantly.

Those things don't change regardless of what you thought of him last year.

But if next year starts off like this year and Cam responds similarly, what happens then? Can't see the team getting behind him again after another meltdown, he's walking on thin ice and can't afford to slip up again.
Now you're into the "what if" game :shrug: What if he doesn't do those things and continues to grow? What if he goes through 5 years of growth and then responds negatively sometime in the future?
...and I expect Cam optimists to be on your side of the fence and pessimists to not. I don't trust his head, you do. I expect him to crack at more signs of adversity, you don't. Fully reasonable to think he's turned the corner, lots of cases to point to with head cases that says he regresses. It's a risk, a risk I was willing to take in 2013 redrafts if his 2012 continued like it did the first two months, not anymore though.
I don't have a side of the fence. I don't play the "what if" game when I can avoid it. I'm interested in the "head cases" you are talking about that allow you to assume one way or the other about Cam though. I am also interested in what you "see" in him that allows you to assume he's going to regress.
He has caused problems at each place he has gone to, severity and type has varied, it's a trend.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Why is it ok to compare him to Luck and RG3? Both those guys had to deal with failure a lot more than Cam did. They learned their lessons earlier. Cam is learning his lessons now. You seem to think he's not learning, so I'm interested in the evidence that allows you to believe that.
He showed it earlier in the season, is now the beginning of a new Cam? or a blip in the radar? We'll see.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?

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People who have extreme hot and cold tendencies like Cam often flame out in ugly ways.

Examples please.
Google psychology books if you really want to learn.If you're just trolling and fishing like it's obvious you've been doing all year then please just stop.

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People who have extreme hot and cold tendencies like Cam often flame out in ugly ways.

Examples please.
Google psychology books if you really want to learn.If you're just trolling and fishing like it's obvious you've been doing all year then please just stop.
Which ones do you recommend? I REALLY want to be good at fantasy football, so give me the best book. I am asking your for examples of players whose production was limited by the "psychological" issues you have assigned to Cam.You've shared your opinion of him as a person. Now tell me why I should care as a fantasy owner. And I've asked you this before and you haven't provided an answer. You keep saying there are plenty examples of players like Cam who have failed. Well, who? Edited by Concept Coop

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