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Cam Newton

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He won a title as a backup at Florida. Won it all with Blinn. Won it all with Auburn.What a cancer!

He got thrown out of Florida.

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He won a title as a backup at Florida. Won it all with Blinn. Won it all with Auburn.What a cancer!

He got thrown out of Florida.
transferred Meyer always gushed about Cam

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He has caused problems at each place he has gone to, severity and type has varied, it's a trend.

He showed it earlier in the season, is now the beginning of a new Cam? or a blip in the radar? We'll see.

You're not going to answer the questions with any sort of specific substance are you? :unsure:
I have addressed everything in comment 1 throughout his pro career. There's a reason he got thrown out of Florida, Auburn got sanctioned, and teammates took issue with him at Carolina for a variety of different behavioral issues - all centered around him.My opinion because of everything in comment 1 is why I have the question in comment 2.
He got tossed from UF for stealing a computer (though he really transferred). Auburn got sanctioned because his dad was peddling his son's services and his teammates in Carolina took issue with his issues because they weren't acceptable. The only issue of the three that has bearing on his professional career is the third, and by all accounts he's attempting to straighten all that out. His teammates believe he's genuine. His coaches believe he's genuine, but apparently you KNOW something else to think otherwise. I'm curious what those things are. If those things are his college mistake at Florida and his father, then I'll consider myself hooked, spit it out and move on.ETA: The only real difference I see in him and the others you mentioned is that Cam is just now learning to deal with adversity and losing. You want that to be a fault, have at it. Edited by The Commish

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After reading this mess of a thread, I still have no idea if I should start Cam or Ryan this coming week (15)

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After reading this mess of a thread, I still have no idea if I should start Cam or Ryan this coming week (15)

That's what the AC is for :shrug: Not sure why you're blaming this thread? You're in the wrong place.

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After reading this mess of a thread, I still have no idea if I should start Cam or Ryan this coming week (15)

That's what the AC is for :shrug: Not sure why you're blaming this thread? You're in the wrong place.
Gotcha. Forgot this was the pissing match forum.

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After reading this mess of a thread, I still have no idea if I should start Cam or Ryan this coming week (15)

That's what the AC is for :shrug: Not sure why you're blaming this thread? You're in the wrong place.
Gotcha. Forgot this was the pissing match forum.
You're new. You'll learn.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?
Pros and cons coming into the league. How they've done since getting to the league. What weaknesses have been exposed. Are they correctable? Have they done some things to show they could be special? How has the team done? How have they done in clutch situations? 3rd downs? Red zone? Do they show leadership abilities? Can you trust the QB when the game is on the line? Any surprises good or bad?
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up? As a fantasy owner I care about 1 thing, will those guy put up fantasy points. So far in his career Newton is on pace to put up top 5 fantasy QB numbers in each of his 2 seasons; that's obviously pretty damn great. So the only way I can see any of that stuff you listed having an impact on fantasy numbers is if Newton gets benched, which I think would be an absurd suggestion given his league leading YPA and fantastic rushing ability; if the Panthers ever grow tired of him, I think there will always be several QB hungry teams who would love to have him.

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After reading this mess of a thread, I still have no idea if I should start Cam or Ryan this coming week (15)

Cam. 116 on the ground?

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After reading this mess of a thread, I still have no idea if I should start Cam or Ryan this coming week (15)

What type of question is this?Newton

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He trailed Bama - the 2nd best team in the nation - 21-0 at the half, and won.

Just proved MAC's point for him! He couldn't handle the pressure when it was 0-0 and only when the pressure off down 3 scores could he play well.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?
Pros and cons coming into the league. How they've done since getting to the league. What weaknesses have been exposed. Are they correctable? Have they done some things to show they could be special? How has the team done? How have they done in clutch situations? 3rd downs? Red zone? Do they show leadership abilities? Can you trust the QB when the game is on the line? Any surprises good or bad?
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up?
The Giants game would be a good starting point.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?
Pros and cons coming into the league. How they've done since getting to the league. What weaknesses have been exposed. Are they correctable? Have they done some things to show they could be special? How has the team done? How have they done in clutch situations? 3rd downs? Red zone? Do they show leadership abilities? Can you trust the QB when the game is on the line? Any surprises good or bad?
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up?
The Giants game would be a good starting point.
I see what you mean, Brees threw two interceptions against them and wasn't really impressive. But I would argue that the week prior was much worse (against Atlanta) where Brees threw for 5 interceptions! For that matter, his game before that, against SF, he didn't look very good either throwing 2 interceptions. That said, I think you're missing the boat by focusing on an individual game here and there and factors that seemingly have little to no affect on fantasy production when Brees' production overall this year and last year has been SO great. Edited by Ernol

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?
Pros and cons coming into the league. How they've done since getting to the league. What weaknesses have been exposed. Are they correctable? Have they done some things to show they could be special? How has the team done? How have they done in clutch situations? 3rd downs? Red zone? Do they show leadership abilities? Can you trust the QB when the game is on the line? Any surprises good or bad?
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up?
The Giants game would be a good starting point.
How so?

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?
Pros and cons coming into the league. How they've done since getting to the league. What weaknesses have been exposed. Are they correctable? Have they done some things to show they could be special? How has the team done? How have they done in clutch situations? 3rd downs? Red zone? Do they show leadership abilities? Can you trust the QB when the game is on the line? Any surprises good or bad?
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up? As a fantasy owner I care about 1 thing, will those guy put up fantasy points. So far in his career Newton is on pace to put up top 5 fantasy QB numbers in each of his 2 seasons; that's obviously pretty damn great. So the only way I can see any of that stuff you listed having an impact on fantasy numbers is if Newton gets benched, which I think would be an absurd suggestion given his league leading YPA and fantastic rushing ability; if the Panthers ever grow tired of him, I think there will always be several QB hungry teams who would love to have him.
People really think newton is going somewhere else?

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Auburn was not sanctioned for any violations with Cam.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?
Pros and cons coming into the league. How they've done since getting to the league. What weaknesses have been exposed. Are they correctable? Have they done some things to show they could be special? How has the team done? How have they done in clutch situations? 3rd downs? Red zone? Do they show leadership abilities? Can you trust the QB when the game is on the line? Any surprises good or bad?
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up? As a fantasy owner I care about 1 thing, will those guy put up fantasy points. So far in his career Newton is on pace to put up top 5 fantasy QB numbers in each of his 2 seasons; that's obviously pretty damn great. So the only way I can see any of that stuff you listed having an impact on fantasy numbers is if Newton gets benched, which I think would be an absurd suggestion given his league leading YPA and fantastic rushing ability; if the Panthers ever grow tired of him, I think there will always be several QB hungry teams who would love to have him.
People really think newton is going somewhere else?
Yes, several people. I can't remember the thread, but a few weeks ago people were talking about the Panthers spending their inevitable top 5 pick on Geno Smith or Matt Barkley.

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Yes, several people. I can't remember the thread, but a few weeks ago people were talking about the Panthers spending their inevitable top 5 pick on Geno Smith or Matt Barkley.

Insanely stupid idea then, regardless of what you think about Cam he is the Panthers opening day starter 2013 and that was before his hot streak. The first question Rivera replacements will be asked is, 'can you work with Cam?' Because they will have to.

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He won a title as a backup at Florida. Won it all with Blinn. Won it all with Auburn.What a cancer!

He got thrown out of Florida.
90% of the NFL is scumbags. so what, put up stats, thats alli care about, get caught doing stupid stuff in the offseason so I know your suspended

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He won a title as a backup at Florida. Won it all with Blinn. Won it all with Auburn.What a cancer!

He got thrown out of Florida.
90% of the NFL is scumbags. so what, put up stats, thats alli care about, get caught doing stupid stuff in the offseason so I know your suspended
How many good QB's are scumbags? Different position than the rest of them.

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You aren't watching the tape if you think Cam's issues are with the deep ball. Its his intermediate stuff that needs the work.

Intermediate's not good either, anything over 15 yards is usually an adventure, except in cases like the Philly game in which DB's just forgot to cover people. I've watched Giants, Falcons round 1, Seahawks, Bears, Broncos, and Eagles are the games I've watched beginning to end. God awful, better but spotty - numbers > performance, God awful round 2, God awful round 3, not good, and my God the Eagles are awful are the summaries of those games.

Looking through the game log he has abused his last 3 opponents with awful defenses and put up big #'s against Atlanta in an up and down performance, otherwise his fantasy production (noting the games I didn't actually watch, only read up on) is a result of his rushing numbers, not his QB performance. Long term, that's not encouraging.

:shock:

Atlanta was an up and down performance?

ESPN tabbed his 98QBR as the second best QBR performance of the year behind only Brady's 304 4td vs STL

Last week Brees put up a 28QBR vs Atlanta

IIRC he benefited from 2 or 3 huge plays, but also had several stalled drives on his shoulders too. Made the big plays, but not the ones to keep drives alive. That's why I said up and down.
they were 9-15 on 3rd down. 7 yards per play. ran 68 plays. had 23 first downs had time of possession at 35 to 25.

you are remembering poorly.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?
Pros and cons coming into the league. How they've done since getting to the league. What weaknesses have been exposed. Are they correctable? Have they done some things to show they could be special? How has the team done? How have they done in clutch situations? 3rd downs? Red zone? Do they show leadership abilities? Can you trust the QB when the game is on the line? Any surprises good or bad?
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up?
The Giants game would be a good starting point.
How so?
bump...don't get this. He imploded in a game, and I'm cautiously attributing it to being half his own fault. The offensive game plan was terrible (if not non-existent) in that game. Are you suggesting that a game implosion is enough cause for concern now? If so, what QBs other than Brady and Manning DON'T fit this category?If I'm being completely honest, this thread reads like you've made a decision on Cam and are using information to back your opinion rather than using the information to form your opinion. That's fine...just be honest about it. Not a big deal :shrug: Edited by The Commish

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bump...don't get this. He imploded in a game, and I'm cautiously attributing it to being half his own fault. The offensive game plan was terrible (if not non-existent) in that game. Are you suggesting that a game implosion is enough cause for concern now? If so, what QBs other than Brady and Manning DON'T fit this category?If I'm being completely honest, this thread reads like you've made a decision on Cam and are using information to back your opinion rather than using the information to form your opinion. That's fine...just be honest about it. Not a big deal :shrug:

And he didn't really implode; he had a bad game. Steve Smith imploded and said some things he later apologized for. Smith lost his cool, not Newton.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?
Pros and cons coming into the league. How they've done since getting to the league. What weaknesses have been exposed. Are they correctable? Have they done some things to show they could be special? How has the team done? How have they done in clutch situations? 3rd downs? Red zone? Do they show leadership abilities? Can you trust the QB when the game is on the line? Any surprises good or bad?
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up?
The Giants game would be a good starting point.
How so?
bump...don't get this. He imploded in a game, and I'm cautiously attributing it to being half his own fault. The offensive game plan was terrible (if not non-existent) in that game. Are you suggesting that a game implosion is enough cause for concern now? If so, what QBs other than Brady and Manning DON'T fit this category?If I'm being completely honest, this thread reads like you've made a decision on Cam and are using information to back your opinion rather than using the information to form your opinion. That's fine...just be honest about it. Not a big deal :shrug:
What happened at the beginning of this season is why I had zero interest in Cam this past offseason. He mentally cracked and it spilled over to the field in several different games. Based on his attitude and post game comments I have no doubts he blamed Chud for his short comings. The play calling was not good, but good QB's make due with the hand their dealt - they don't pout, #####, and moan like Cam did.QB's have bad games, everyone does, but I don't think his beginning of season performances were because he just had a bad game. Mentally, I don't think he was all there. And, yes, this is because of an opinion I developed on him before the season began. I don't expect others to share that opinion because my thoughts then were the minority and obviously they are now too, this supported my opinion and didn't everyone else's. When Drew Brees has a bad game you don't start questioning whether you should start him, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady too. Go back to September and October, lots of people started bailing on Cam as their starter. He doesn't have the long history of success others do so when bad games/stretches strike you're left wondering if you should continue to start him or not. I'll buy into Cam after he can break through that mental barrier. In the meantime, I'll probably roll the dice on other QB's next year again and stay content with RG3 and Luck in my two dyno's. Cam drafters, maybe you'll have better luck than you did this year.

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What happened at the beginning of this season is why I had zero interest in Cam this past offseason. He mentally cracked and it spilled over to the field in several different games. Based on his attitude and post game comments I have no doubts he blamed Chud for his short comings. The play calling was not good, but good QB's make due with the hand their dealt - they don't pout, #####, and moan like Cam did.QB's have bad games, everyone does, but I don't think his beginning of season performances were because he just had a bad game. Mentally, I don't think he was all there. And, yes, this is because of an opinion I developed on him before the season began. I don't expect others to share that opinion because my thoughts then were the minority and obviously they are now too, this supported my opinion and didn't everyone else's. When Drew Brees has a bad game you don't start questioning whether you should start him, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady too. Go back to September and October, lots of people started bailing on Cam as their starter. He doesn't have the long history of success others do so when bad games/stretches strike you're left wondering if you should continue to start him or not. I'll buy into Cam after he can break through that mental barrier. In the meantime, I'll probably roll the dice on other QB's next year again and stay content with RG3 and Luck in my two dyno's. Cam drafters, maybe you'll have better luck than you did this year.

Why do you care why he has bad games, if, as you say, every QB has bad games. Do you get fewer points when Cam has a bad game do you your diagnosis of "mental breakdown"? Do you get fewer points when he #####es and moans? Is the point of starting a player not to benefit from his raw production numbers? Cam is a top 4 QB this year, after being the same last year. What do you mean, better luck? That's what his ADP dictated.

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What happened at the beginning of this season is why I had zero interest in Cam this past offseason. He mentally cracked and it spilled over to the field in several different games. Based on his attitude and post game comments I have no doubts he blamed Chud for his short comings. The play calling was not good, but good QB's make due with the hand their dealt - they don't pout, #####, and moan like Cam did.QB's have bad games, everyone does, but I don't think his beginning of season performances were because he just had a bad game. Mentally, I don't think he was all there. And, yes, this is because of an opinion I developed on him before the season began. I don't expect others to share that opinion because my thoughts then were the minority and obviously they are now too, this supported my opinion and didn't everyone else's. When Drew Brees has a bad game you don't start questioning whether you should start him, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady too. Go back to September and October, lots of people started bailing on Cam as their starter. He doesn't have the long history of success others do so when bad games/stretches strike you're left wondering if you should continue to start him or not. I'll buy into Cam after he can break through that mental barrier. In the meantime, I'll probably roll the dice on other QB's next year again and stay content with RG3 and Luck in my two dyno's. Cam drafters, maybe you'll have better luck than you did this year.

Why do you care why he has bad games, if, as you say, every QB has bad games. Do you get fewer points when Cam has a bad game do you your diagnosis of "mental breakdown"? Do you get fewer points when he #####es and moans? Is the point of starting a player not to benefit from his raw production numbers? Cam is a top 4 QB this year, after being the same last year. What do you mean, better luck? That's what his ADP dictated.
Because when a player you don't trust has bad games (plural) you start thinking about benching him. Additionally, Cam owners that did stick with him got below average production 5 of his first 7 games and awful production in 2 of them. The Cam owners that were able to manage during his early season slump are in a very good spot right now, but I'll venture a guess that most did not and were staring at 2-6 or 3-5 like records at the end of week 8, making the playoff push tough to come by.You trust Cam, and have all along, most Cam owners do. I never did, and his early season performance showed me why I don't. Will he reverse course next year? I don't know, we'll see. Said the same thing ebfore this season. I'll find out with him on someone else's team.

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Because when a player you don't trust has bad games (plural) you start thinking about benching him. Additionally, Cam owners that did stick with him got below average production 5 of his first 7 games and awful production in 2 of them. The Cam owners that were able to manage during his early season slump are in a very good spot right now, but I'll venture a guess that most did not and were staring at 2-6 or 3-5 like records at the end of week 8, making the playoff push tough to come by.You trust Cam, and have all along, most Cam owners do. I never did, and his early season performance showed me why I don't. Will he reverse course next year? I don't know, we'll see. Said the same thing ebfore this season. I'll find out with him on someone else's team.

His slump is overblown, in my opinion. He never dipped below QB1 numbers per game. But, we've both shared about all we have to say, I'd guess. We'll see.

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So I think we can sum up MAC_32's opinions on the top QBs in the league as follows:Struggles of top QBs not named Cam Newton: all of their struggles can be excused easily.Struggles of QBs named Cam Newton: none of his struggles can be excused at all.

Compare Luck and RG3 to Cam, not Brady, Brees, and Rodgers. Stafford and Ryan, maybe.
Compare them how? Not statistically I assume because Newton's numbers are far superior to Luck's. Or should compare them by their team's success, while assuming team wins are perfectly correlated with QB skill and while ignoring the impact of defense, special teams, and coaching?
Pros and cons coming into the league. How they've done since getting to the league. What weaknesses have been exposed. Are they correctable? Have they done some things to show they could be special? How has the team done? How have they done in clutch situations? 3rd downs? Red zone? Do they show leadership abilities? Can you trust the QB when the game is on the line? Any surprises good or bad?
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up?
The Giants game would be a good starting point.
How so?
bump...don't get this. He imploded in a game, and I'm cautiously attributing it to being half his own fault. The offensive game plan was terrible (if not non-existent) in that game. Are you suggesting that a game implosion is enough cause for concern now? If so, what QBs other than Brady and Manning DON'T fit this category?If I'm being completely honest, this thread reads like you've made a decision on Cam and are using information to back your opinion rather than using the information to form your opinion. That's fine...just be honest about it. Not a big deal :shrug:
What happened at the beginning of this season is why I had zero interest in Cam this past offseason. He mentally cracked and it spilled over to the field in several different games. Based on his attitude and post game comments I have no doubts he blamed Chud for his short comings. The play calling was not good, but good QB's make due with the hand their dealt - they don't pout, #####, and moan like Cam did.QB's have bad games, everyone does, but I don't think his beginning of season performances were because he just had a bad game. Mentally, I don't think he was all there. And, yes, this is because of an opinion I developed on him before the season began. I don't expect others to share that opinion because my thoughts then were the minority and obviously they are now too, this supported my opinion and didn't everyone else's. When Drew Brees has a bad game you don't start questioning whether you should start him, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady too. Go back to September and October, lots of people started bailing on Cam as their starter. He doesn't have the long history of success others do so when bad games/stretches strike you're left wondering if you should continue to start him or not. I'll buy into Cam after he can break through that mental barrier. In the meantime, I'll probably roll the dice on other QB's next year again and stay content with RG3 and Luck in my two dyno's. Cam drafters, maybe you'll have better luck than you did this year.
Yeah, I know this is a fantasy football site, but I couldn't give two ####s from a fantasy perspective. I'm talking about him...as a player in general. I'm interested in your use of terminology though. What do you mean "mentally cracked"? I said earlier that best I can tell, he's learning how to face adversity for the first time ever. It happens to be in front of the camera and at the highest level. Yeah, he's pouted, made comments that should be kept in the locker room etc, but why is that mental instability? Why isn't it a desire to compete and hatred of losing? Why is it a mental flaw? That's what I don't get.Now, from a fantasy perspective, he is number 5 in my league. I don't own him. What do you mean "better luck" than this year?

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It's all a continuation of a trend that started in his first of 3 schools in college. Cam's a different case than most to me because we haven't seen anything like this in the pros before. A special athlete, not accustomed to losing, adjusting poorly, checkered character...at QB. The first three points, there's a lot of those throughout the league, but not at QB. QB's with iffy heads flame out like Jamarcus or Leaf or plummet in the draft and have to prove it like Mallet is right now. None of them have the skill set that Cam has to play with though.

Taking a step outside of football because there just are not football examples to site with Cam, people with special skill sets (or just backed into a position because of their last name) that don't have what it takes to be a leader go through periods in which people believe in them because they say and do the right things...for a while. Eventually they revert back to form and f up again. Sometimes those people are able to overcome those issues and learn from their mistakes and go on to be great at what they do. Call me a cynic, but I see much more of the former than the latter. I think it's more likely Cam regresses again and has a flame out like he did in that Giants game and the more often bad stuff like that happens the less others are going to believe in their leader and the foundation crumbles around them. That's the absolute worst case scenario, to be sure. Entirely possible this is a new leaf, which I have said all along, I just don't think others are factoring in the associated risks too. It's why Cam is going to be outside my top 7 again and possibly top 10, redraft and dynasty, again.

I'll roll the dice if the price is right, but without hesitation I am taking Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, RG3, and Luck before him. Maybe Ryan and Stafford too. Dyno-wise, there's a lot of young guys not far behind Cam that I may bump over the top with strong finishes too. And Romo or Big Ben at cheaper prices look more enticing as well. There are just so many very good QB's in the game now to risk more investing in a guy I don't trust.

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It's all a continuation of a trend that started in his first of 3 schools in college. Cam's a different case than most to me because we haven't seen anything like this in the pros before. A special athlete, not accustomed to losing, adjusting poorly, checkered character...at QB. The first three points, there's a lot of those throughout the league, but not at QB. QB's with iffy heads flame out like Jamarcus or Leaf or plummet in the draft and have to prove it like Mallet is right now. None of them have the skill set that Cam has to play with though. Taking a step outside of football because there just are not football examples to site with Cam, people with special skill sets (or just backed into a position because of their last name) that don't have what it takes to be a leader go through periods in which people believe in them because they say and do the right things...for a while. Eventually they revert back to form and f up again. Sometimes those people are able to overcome those issues and learn from their mistakes and go on to be great at what they do. Call me a cynic, but I see much more of the former than the latter. I think it's more likely Cam regresses again and has a flame out like he did in that Giants game and the more often bad stuff like that happens the less others are going to believe in their leader and the foundation crumbles around them. That's the absolute worst case scenario, to be sure. Entirely possible this is a new leaf, which I have said all along, I just don't think others are factoring in the associated risks too. It's why Cam is going to be outside my top 7 again and possibly top 10, redraft and dynasty, again. I'll roll the dice if the price is right, but without hesitation I am taking Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, RG3, and Luck before him. Maybe Ryan and Stafford too. Dyno-wise, there's a lot of young guys not far behind Cam that I may bump over the top with strong finishes too. And Romo or Big Ben at cheaper prices look more enticing as well. There are just so many very good QB's in the game now to risk more investing in a guy I don't trust.

Yeah, I've stopped circling this hook. You're making zero sense at this point.

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It's all a continuation of a trend that started in his first of 3 schools in college. Cam's a different case than most to me because we haven't seen anything like this in the pros before. A special athlete, not accustomed to losing, adjusting poorly, checkered character...at QB. The first three points, there's a lot of those throughout the league, but not at QB. QB's with iffy heads flame out like Jamarcus or Leaf or plummet in the draft and have to prove it like Mallet is right now. None of them have the skill set that Cam has to play with though. Taking a step outside of football because there just are not football examples to site with Cam, people with special skill sets (or just backed into a position because of their last name) that don't have what it takes to be a leader go through periods in which people believe in them because they say and do the right things...for a while. Eventually they revert back to form and f up again. Sometimes those people are able to overcome those issues and learn from their mistakes and go on to be great at what they do. Call me a cynic, but I see much more of the former than the latter. I think it's more likely Cam regresses again and has a flame out like he did in that Giants game and the more often bad stuff like that happens the less others are going to believe in their leader and the foundation crumbles around them. That's the absolute worst case scenario, to be sure. Entirely possible this is a new leaf, which I have said all along, I just don't think others are factoring in the associated risks too. It's why Cam is going to be outside my top 7 again and possibly top 10, redraft and dynasty, again. I'll roll the dice if the price is right, but without hesitation I am taking Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, RG3, and Luck before him. Maybe Ryan and Stafford too. Dyno-wise, there's a lot of young guys not far behind Cam that I may bump over the top with strong finishes too. And Romo or Big Ben at cheaper prices look more enticing as well. There are just so many very good QB's in the game now to risk more investing in a guy I don't trust.

Yeah, I've stopped circling this hook. You're making zero sense at this point.
How many talented #### up's do you know ended up being good at what they do? How many continued to #### up?

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Because when a player you don't trust has bad games (plural) you start thinking about benching him. Additionally, Cam owners that did stick with him got below average production 5 of his first 7 games and awful production in 2 of them. The Cam owners that were able to manage during his early season slump are in a very good spot right now, but I'll venture a guess that most did not and were staring at 2-6 or 3-5 like records at the end of week 8, making the playoff push tough to come by.

You trust Cam, and have all along, most Cam owners do. I never did, and his early season performance showed me why I don't. Will he reverse course next year? I don't know, we'll see. Said the same thing ebfore this season. I'll find out with him on someone else's team.

Cam in a typical QB scoring format scored 18, 30, 16, 33, 11, 22 and 17 his first 7 games, his worst stretch of the year.

Rodgers, on the other hand, has scored 29, 18, 29, 19, 16, 19 and 18 in his last 7 games, as “bad” or worse than Cam’s worst stretch.

Do you realize Drew Brees in his last 7 games has scored 18, 20, 26, 23, 23, 12 and 20?

How about the great RGIII (no sarcasm): 29, 14, 16, 34, 33, 19, 20 in his last 7?

Point is, it is not unusual for a great player to run into a lull at some point of the year (although all of the above “lulls” are easily acceptable performance as a worst stretch). I’d like to have had any of these QBs on any given team as my #1. They more than make up for it with the games they single handedly win, like Cam scoring 40, 31 and 40 over the last 3 weeks! I’d say many owners with Cam on their team are doing/did just fine and many are likely in the semi finals this week.

Personally, I'm not sure there's a QB I’d rather have right now going into the semis or a QB I’d least like to see on my opponent’s roster. All in all, at least thus far, the “luck” in having Cam has been very good.

By continuing to focus only on Cam’s “mediocre” numbers while looking past all other QB’s similar or worse numbers, you’re analysis continues to lack objectivity.

Edited by Ernol

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This is why I dodged the scoring argument as long as I did, every system is different, tried using most standard as possible - 1 pt/20 pass yds, 1 pt/10 rush yds, 6 pts/all TDs, -2 pts/all TOs. The one I use had his bad games as 17, 12, 9, 20, and 15. QB12 averages 24 pts, QB24 averages 18. Baseline I used. Adjust based on your league.

If you guys want to know what I'm so wary of go find a Michael Vick owner in 2008 and talk with them. The top 6 QB's don't have #### up downside, neither do the good ones ranked in that 7-12 or 15ish range, not what I know about them anyway. Watch a guy #### up enough times and ignore it and you will pay the price.

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If you guys want to know what I'm so wary of go find a Michael Vick owner in 2008 and talk with them.

Michael Vick? Have you watched either of the two play? They don't even run similarly.

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It's all a continuation of a trend that started in his first of 3 schools in college. Cam's a different case than most to me because we haven't seen anything like this in the pros before. A special athlete, not accustomed to losing, adjusting poorly, checkered character...at QB. The first three points, there's a lot of those throughout the league, but not at QB. QB's with iffy heads flame out like Jamarcus or Leaf or plummet in the draft and have to prove it like Mallet is right now. None of them have the skill set that Cam has to play with though. Taking a step outside of football because there just are not football examples to site with Cam, people with special skill sets (or just backed into a position because of their last name) that don't have what it takes to be a leader go through periods in which people believe in them because they say and do the right things...for a while. Eventually they revert back to form and f up again. Sometimes those people are able to overcome those issues and learn from their mistakes and go on to be great at what they do. Call me a cynic, but I see much more of the former than the latter. I think it's more likely Cam regresses again and has a flame out like he did in that Giants game and the more often bad stuff like that happens the less others are going to believe in their leader and the foundation crumbles around them. That's the absolute worst case scenario, to be sure. Entirely possible this is a new leaf, which I have said all along, I just don't think others are factoring in the associated risks too. It's why Cam is going to be outside my top 7 again and possibly top 10, redraft and dynasty, again. I'll roll the dice if the price is right, but without hesitation I am taking Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, RG3, and Luck before him. Maybe Ryan and Stafford too. Dyno-wise, there's a lot of young guys not far behind Cam that I may bump over the top with strong finishes too. And Romo or Big Ben at cheaper prices look more enticing as well. There are just so many very good QB's in the game now to risk more investing in a guy I don't trust.

Yeah, I've stopped circling this hook. You're making zero sense at this point.
How many talented #### up's do you know ended up being good at what they do? How many continued to #### up?
Of the NFL players who still play, Brandon Marshall, Dez Bryant, Marshawn Lynch, Randy Moss, Aqib Talib, and Elvis Dumervil come to mind. In recent history, Terrell Owens and Chad Johnson also come to mind. I think you're vastly overrating the impact of players acting idiotically; if you're talented enough NFL teams just won't care. What separates Cam Newton from someone like Ryan Leaf (besides being considerably less crazy) is that Cam Newton is actually a very talented player who has put up phenomenal stats in his first 2 seasons whereas Leaf was absolutely dreadful from his first NFL pass to his last. If Leaf was as talented as Newton is some team would have put up with his bull####. Edited by Time Kibitzer

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If you guys want to know what I'm so wary of go find a Michael Vick owner in 2008 and talk with them.

Michael Vick? Have you watched either of the two play? They don't even run similarly.
Completely missed my point.

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It's all a continuation of a trend that started in his first of 3 schools in college. Cam's a different case than most to me because we haven't seen anything like this in the pros before. A special athlete, not accustomed to losing, adjusting poorly, checkered character...at QB. The first three points, there's a lot of those throughout the league, but not at QB. QB's with iffy heads flame out like Jamarcus or Leaf or plummet in the draft and have to prove it like Mallet is right now. None of them have the skill set that Cam has to play with though. Taking a step outside of football because there just are not football examples to site with Cam, people with special skill sets (or just backed into a position because of their last name) that don't have what it takes to be a leader go through periods in which people believe in them because they say and do the right things...for a while. Eventually they revert back to form and f up again. Sometimes those people are able to overcome those issues and learn from their mistakes and go on to be great at what they do. Call me a cynic, but I see much more of the former than the latter. I think it's more likely Cam regresses again and has a flame out like he did in that Giants game and the more often bad stuff like that happens the less others are going to believe in their leader and the foundation crumbles around them. That's the absolute worst case scenario, to be sure. Entirely possible this is a new leaf, which I have said all along, I just don't think others are factoring in the associated risks too. It's why Cam is going to be outside my top 7 again and possibly top 10, redraft and dynasty, again. I'll roll the dice if the price is right, but without hesitation I am taking Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, RG3, and Luck before him. Maybe Ryan and Stafford too. Dyno-wise, there's a lot of young guys not far behind Cam that I may bump over the top with strong finishes too. And Romo or Big Ben at cheaper prices look more enticing as well. There are just so many very good QB's in the game now to risk more investing in a guy I don't trust.

Yeah, I've stopped circling this hook. You're making zero sense at this point.
How many talented #### up's do you know ended up being good at what they do? How many continued to #### up?
Of the NFL players who still play, Brandon Marshall, Dez Bryant, Marshawn Lynch, Randy Moss, Aqib Talib, and Elvis Dumervil come to mind. In recent history, Terrell Owens and Chad Johnson also come to mind.
I think the difference is the dip#### factor is priced into these guys. Dez is a top 5 talent, but until recently most had himoutside their top 10 or top 15. Similar story with Marshall and Lynch. Similar talents are taken before them, lesser talents with less risk are taken around them. Same rules don't apply with Cam. What did you have him ranked preseason? Top 15 overall? Top 4 QB? That's what most had, don't see the idiot factor priced in, which has been my argument from the beginning that I think everyone in here is choosing to ignore. I would consider buying him if the price is right, I don't think it is, there's no profit at his current price - only risk.

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It's all a continuation of a trend that started in his first of 3 schools in college. Cam's a different case than most to me because we haven't seen anything like this in the pros before. A special athlete, not accustomed to losing, adjusting poorly, checkered character...at QB. The first three points, there's a lot of those throughout the league, but not at QB. QB's with iffy heads flame out like Jamarcus or Leaf or plummet in the draft and have to prove it like Mallet is right now. None of them have the skill set that Cam has to play with though. Taking a step outside of football because there just are not football examples to site with Cam, people with special skill sets (or just backed into a position because of their last name) that don't have what it takes to be a leader go through periods in which people believe in them because they say and do the right things...for a while. Eventually they revert back to form and f up again. Sometimes those people are able to overcome those issues and learn from their mistakes and go on to be great at what they do. Call me a cynic, but I see much more of the former than the latter. I think it's more likely Cam regresses again and has a flame out like he did in that Giants game and the more often bad stuff like that happens the less others are going to believe in their leader and the foundation crumbles around them. That's the absolute worst case scenario, to be sure. Entirely possible this is a new leaf, which I have said all along, I just don't think others are factoring in the associated risks too. It's why Cam is going to be outside my top 7 again and possibly top 10, redraft and dynasty, again. I'll roll the dice if the price is right, but without hesitation I am taking Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, RG3, and Luck before him. Maybe Ryan and Stafford too. Dyno-wise, there's a lot of young guys not far behind Cam that I may bump over the top with strong finishes too. And Romo or Big Ben at cheaper prices look more enticing as well. There are just so many very good QB's in the game now to risk more investing in a guy I don't trust.

Yeah, I've stopped circling this hook. You're making zero sense at this point.
How many talented #### up's do you know ended up being good at what they do? How many continued to #### up?
What does this have to do with the conversation? Are you saying that because he made a mistake in college, he's forever a #### up? To answer your question (because I'm bored) two came to mind without even thinking. Michael Irvin and Terrell Owens. But again, I don't know what your question has to do with this conversation.

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