Concept Coop
Footballguy
Give us something concrete, so we can test your theory with concrete examples. 3rd down, red zone, and clutch situation. Give us some numbers. You seem to put stock in them, you should have criteria that you use, no?
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QB Cam Newton, CAR (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter rickyg
- Start date
Judge Smails
Footballguy
The hate is ridiculous here. He hasn't been perfect, but he's been virtually unstoppable with zero running game. He is the running game. He's completing a lot more of his intermediate passes and sustaining drives with his legs. With Brees being so bad lately, Rodgers not even throwing for a TD, RG3 hurt - who do you like over him from a scoring perspective? Brady? And then? Even in my 6 point TD league his ceiling is so much higher than anybody. Not sure if people are arguing his value as a real QB or a FF quarterback. I can understand the discussion as a leader as real QB, character, leadership qualities, arrogance, blah blah blah. But as a fantasy QB right now? On fire.
MAC_32
Footballguy
I have never said players, I have said cases. The only player I can think of with personality questions like Cam is Ryan Leaf. There are many others, but they are less important at other positions than QB, a leadership position. I have neglected to write Leaf's name because you will twist this into a statistical argument, hence the fishing comments. The difference between them is Leaf flamed out too quickly. He showed up to camp fat then imploded, but there's a reason he was debated vs. Peyton Manning and it's because of what he did on the field and what he could do in the pros. Never had anything to do with physical abilities, he mentally collapsed, epically at that.
I REALLY disliked him coming out of college and expected to see him fail in the NFL, but that just isn't happening. He is proving each week that he is a star QB in this league and I don't see that changing. In fact, I think he will continue to mature and improve as Carolina gets better.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
And seeing as how Leaf and Newton have nothing in common? Should we not worry?
MAC_32
Footballguy
I just did above and I mentioned earlier I will re-visit all of this data during the offseason. I make midseason notes then look again in the offseason. Week-to-week I just make mental notes on how I think players and teams are progressing from the prior week. Usually don't watch every game, but I watch 5 in-action then somewhere between 2 and 5 during the week and read up on the ones I miss.
MAC_32
Footballguy
If you don't think an egotistical extortionist, criminal, and thief shares traits to Leaf then I cannot help you.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
No you didn't. At all. Give me numbers. A number or percentage that you use as a baseline. If you are going to say X is bad - what isn't bad? What's good? What is average?
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Help me understand. Did Ryan leaf steal a computer at 18? Or cheat on tests at 18?Or is he the only example of a player failing due to personality, so you need to grasp at anything?And you should look up the definition of extortion before you use it. Criminal too, actually. Thief too, while you're at it.
MAC_32
Footballguy
A good percentage is better than your opposition, a bad percentage is worse. As the game has changed so have baselines, Weeden's season has been a success relative to past Browns QB's but compare him to the rest of the league and he's been pretty terrible. If he has a good percentage, why? if bad, why? Are there other factors at play causing it? You always want the simple answer and in this game there just aren't.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
You could have just responded "no" or "I don't know" or "I don't have any". Although, "I make them up as I go; as they fit my argument" would been the most honest.'MAC_32 said:
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The Commish
Footballguy
'MAC_32 said:
You're not going to answer the questions with any sort of specific substance are you?'MAC_32 said:
The Commish
Footballguy
'Slapdash said:'Judge Smails said:
MAC_32
Footballguy
I have addressed everything in comment 1 throughout his pro career. There's a reason he got thrown out of Florida, Auburn got sanctioned, and teammates took issue with him at Carolina for a variety of different behavioral issues - all centered around him.My opinion because of everything in comment 1 is why I have the question in comment 2.'MAC_32 said:You're not going to answer the questions with any sort of specific substance are you?'MAC_32 said:
Concept Coop
Footballguy
I am trying to fish? I am the only one who has given an example in the Ryan Leaf/Cam Newton conversation. What point were you making? Ryan Leaf failed because he didn't care enough. Newton does. Comparing Newton to Leaf is ignorant or lazy.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Cancer is contagious, Leaf failed because he was a cancer, not because he didn't care. Cam was a cancer at each of his schools, the effects of the 2nd one just weren't felt til he left. Same cancerous signs have been there in the pros, just hasn't blown up yet. If his head's on straight it won't, but if he's effected two other programs and showed the signs again what reason is there to believe it won't continue? blind faith.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
This is just silly. You have reduced everything to a simple, lazy, generic word like "cancer". Now you get to assign it to everyone you want without consistant criteria. And we're supposed to take your word for it. And ask Auburn and Blinn how they enjoyed their cancerous national championships.
MAC_32
Footballguy
He got thrown out of Florida.
transferred Meyer always gushed about Cam
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Where does Hitler fall on your cancer scale? He's got to be up there, right? Like top 10?
The Commish
Footballguy
He got tossed from UF for stealing a computer (though he really transferred). Auburn got sanctioned because his dad was peddling his son's services and his teammates in Carolina took issue with his issues because they weren't acceptable. The only issue of the three that has bearing on his professional career is the third, and by all accounts he's attempting to straighten all that out. His teammates believe he's genuine. His coaches believe he's genuine, but apparently you KNOW something else to think otherwise. I'm curious what those things are. If those things are his college mistake at Florida and his father, then I'll consider myself hooked, spit it out and move on.ETA: The only real difference I see in him and the others you mentioned is that Cam is just now learning to deal with adversity and losing. You want that to be a fault, have at it.I have addressed everything in comment 1 throughout his pro career. There's a reason he got thrown out of Florida, Auburn got sanctioned, and teammates took issue with him at Carolina for a variety of different behavioral issues - all centered around him.My opinion because of everything in comment 1 is why I have the question in comment 2.'MAC_32 said:You're not going to answer the questions with any sort of specific substance are you?'MAC_32 said:
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The Commish
Footballguy
That's what the AC is for
Not sure why you're blaming this thread? You're in the wrong place.Gotcha. Forgot this was the pissing match forum.That's what the AC is for
Concept Coop
Footballguy
You're new. You'll learn.Gotcha. Forgot this was the pissing match forum.That's what the AC is for
Time Kibitzer
Footballguy
On what basis should fantasy owners care about any of that stuff? Is there strong evidence of correlation between any of that and fantasy points put up? As a fantasy owner I care about 1 thing, will those guy put up fantasy points. So far in his career Newton is on pace to put up top 5 fantasy QB numbers in each of his 2 seasons; that's obviously pretty damn great. So the only way I can see any of that stuff you listed having an impact on fantasy numbers is if Newton gets benched, which I think would be an absurd suggestion given his league leading YPA and fantastic rushing ability; if the Panthers ever grow tired of him, I think there will always be several QB hungry teams who would love to have him.'MAC_32 said:
Cam. 116 on the ground?
What type of question is this?Newton
bonesman
Footballguy
Just proved MAC's point for him! He couldn't handle the pressure when it was 0-0 and only when the pressure off down 3 scores could he play well.
MAC_32
Footballguy
The Giants game would be a good starting point.
I see what you mean, Brees threw two interceptions against them and wasn't really impressive. But I would argue that the week prior was much worse (against Atlanta) where Brees threw for 5 interceptions! For that matter, his game before that, against SF, he didn't look very good either throwing 2 interceptions. That said, I think you're missing the boat by focusing on an individual game here and there and factors that seemingly have little to no affect on fantasy production when Brees' production overall this year and last year has been SO great.
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The Commish
Footballguy
How so?
People really think newton is going somewhere else?
Time Kibitzer
Footballguy
Yes, several people. I can't remember the thread, but a few weeks ago people were talking about the Panthers spending their inevitable top 5 pick on Geno Smith or Matt Barkley.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Insanely stupid idea then, regardless of what you think about Cam he is the Panthers opening day starter 2013 and that was before his hot streak. The first question Rivera replacements will be asked is, 'can you work with Cam?' Because they will have to.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
90% of the NFL is scumbags. so what, put up stats, thats alli care about, get caught doing stupid stuff in the offseason so I know your suspended
MAC_32
Footballguy
How many good QB's are scumbags? Different position than the rest of them.
they were 9-15 on 3rd down. 7 yards per play. ran 68 plays. had 23 first downs had time of possession at 35 to 25.you are remembering poorly.IIRC he benefited from 2 or 3 huge plays, but also had several stalled drives on his shoulders too. Made the big plays, but not the ones to keep drives alive. That's why I said up and down.Atlanta was an up and down performance?
ESPN tabbed his 98QBR as the second best QBR performance of the year behind only Brady's 304 4td vs STL
Last week Brees put up a 28QBR vs Atlanta
The Commish
Footballguy
bump...don't get this. He imploded in a game, and I'm cautiously attributing it to being half his own fault. The offensive game plan was terrible (if not non-existent) in that game. Are you suggesting that a game implosion is enough cause for concern now? If so, what QBs other than Brady and Manning DON'T fit this category?If I'm being completely honest, this thread reads like you've made a decision on Cam and are using information to back your opinion rather than using the information to form your opinion. That's fine...just be honest about it. Not a big deal
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
And he didn't really implode; he had a bad game. Steve Smith imploded and said some things he later apologized for. Smith lost his cool, not Newton.bump...don't get this. He imploded in a game, and I'm cautiously attributing it to being half his own fault. The offensive game plan was terrible (if not non-existent) in that game. Are you suggesting that a game implosion is enough cause for concern now? If so, what QBs other than Brady and Manning DON'T fit this category?If I'm being completely honest, this thread reads like you've made a decision on Cam and are using information to back your opinion rather than using the information to form your opinion. That's fine...just be honest about it. Not a big deal
MAC_32
Footballguy
What happened at the beginning of this season is why I had zero interest in Cam this past offseason. He mentally cracked and it spilled over to the field in several different games. Based on his attitude and post game comments I have no doubts he blamed Chud for his short comings. The play calling was not good, but good QB's make due with the hand their dealt - they don't pout, #####, and moan like Cam did.QB's have bad games, everyone does, but I don't think his beginning of season performances were because he just had a bad game. Mentally, I don't think he was all there. And, yes, this is because of an opinion I developed on him before the season began. I don't expect others to share that opinion because my thoughts then were the minority and obviously they are now too, this supported my opinion and didn't everyone else's. When Drew Brees has a bad game you don't start questioning whether you should start him, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady too. Go back to September and October, lots of people started bailing on Cam as their starter. He doesn't have the long history of success others do so when bad games/stretches strike you're left wondering if you should continue to start him or not. I'll buy into Cam after he can break through that mental barrier. In the meantime, I'll probably roll the dice on other QB's next year again and stay content with RG3 and Luck in my two dyno's. Cam drafters, maybe you'll have better luck than you did this year.bump...don't get this. He imploded in a game, and I'm cautiously attributing it to being half his own fault. The offensive game plan was terrible (if not non-existent) in that game. Are you suggesting that a game implosion is enough cause for concern now? If so, what QBs other than Brady and Manning DON'T fit this category?If I'm being completely honest, this thread reads like you've made a decision on Cam and are using information to back your opinion rather than using the information to form your opinion. That's fine...just be honest about it. Not a big deal
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Why do you care why he has bad games, if, as you say, every QB has bad games. Do you get fewer points when Cam has a bad game do you your diagnosis of "mental breakdown"? Do you get fewer points when he #####es and moans? Is the point of starting a player not to benefit from his raw production numbers? Cam is a top 4 QB this year, after being the same last year. What do you mean, better luck? That's what his ADP dictated.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Because when a player you don't trust has bad games (plural) you start thinking about benching him. Additionally, Cam owners that did stick with him got below average production 5 of his first 7 games and awful production in 2 of them. The Cam owners that were able to manage during his early season slump are in a very good spot right now, but I'll venture a guess that most did not and were staring at 2-6 or 3-5 like records at the end of week 8, making the playoff push tough to come by.You trust Cam, and have all along, most Cam owners do. I never did, and his early season performance showed me why I don't. Will he reverse course next year? I don't know, we'll see. Said the same thing ebfore this season. I'll find out with him on someone else's team.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
His slump is overblown, in my opinion. He never dipped below QB1 numbers per game. But, we've both shared about all we have to say, I'd guess. We'll see.
The Commish
Footballguy
Yeah, I know this is a fantasy football site, but I couldn't give two ####s from a fantasy perspective. I'm talking about him...as a player in general. I'm interested in your use of terminology though. What do you mean "mentally cracked"? I said earlier that best I can tell, he's learning how to face adversity for the first time ever. It happens to be in front of the camera and at the highest level. Yeah, he's pouted, made comments that should be kept in the locker room etc, but why is that mental instability? Why isn't it a desire to compete and hatred of losing? Why is it a mental flaw? That's what I don't get.Now, from a fantasy perspective, he is number 5 in my league. I don't own him. What do you mean "better luck" than this year?What happened at the beginning of this season is why I had zero interest in Cam this past offseason. He mentally cracked and it spilled over to the field in several different games. Based on his attitude and post game comments I have no doubts he blamed Chud for his short comings. The play calling was not good, but good QB's make due with the hand their dealt - they don't pout, #####, and moan like Cam did.QB's have bad games, everyone does, but I don't think his beginning of season performances were because he just had a bad game. Mentally, I don't think he was all there. And, yes, this is because of an opinion I developed on him before the season began. I don't expect others to share that opinion because my thoughts then were the minority and obviously they are now too, this supported my opinion and didn't everyone else's. When Drew Brees has a bad game you don't start questioning whether you should start him, Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady too. Go back to September and October, lots of people started bailing on Cam as their starter. He doesn't have the long history of success others do so when bad games/stretches strike you're left wondering if you should continue to start him or not. I'll buy into Cam after he can break through that mental barrier. In the meantime, I'll probably roll the dice on other QB's next year again and stay content with RG3 and Luck in my two dyno's. Cam drafters, maybe you'll have better luck than you did this year.bump...don't get this. He imploded in a game, and I'm cautiously attributing it to being half his own fault. The offensive game plan was terrible (if not non-existent) in that game. Are you suggesting that a game implosion is enough cause for concern now? If so, what QBs other than Brady and Manning DON'T fit this category?If I'm being completely honest, this thread reads like you've made a decision on Cam and are using information to back your opinion rather than using the information to form your opinion. That's fine...just be honest about it. Not a big deal
MAC_32
Footballguy
It's all a continuation of a trend that started in his first of 3 schools in college. Cam's a different case than most to me because we haven't seen anything like this in the pros before. A special athlete, not accustomed to losing, adjusting poorly, checkered character...at QB. The first three points, there's a lot of those throughout the league, but not at QB. QB's with iffy heads flame out like Jamarcus or Leaf or plummet in the draft and have to prove it like Mallet is right now. None of them have the skill set that Cam has to play with though.
Taking a step outside of football because there just are not football examples to site with Cam, people with special skill sets (or just backed into a position because of their last name) that don't have what it takes to be a leader go through periods in which people believe in them because they say and do the right things...for a while. Eventually they revert back to form and f up again. Sometimes those people are able to overcome those issues and learn from their mistakes and go on to be great at what they do. Call me a cynic, but I see much more of the former than the latter. I think it's more likely Cam regresses again and has a flame out like he did in that Giants game and the more often bad stuff like that happens the less others are going to believe in their leader and the foundation crumbles around them. That's the absolute worst case scenario, to be sure. Entirely possible this is a new leaf, which I have said all along, I just don't think others are factoring in the associated risks too. It's why Cam is going to be outside my top 7 again and possibly top 10, redraft and dynasty, again.
I'll roll the dice if the price is right, but without hesitation I am taking Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, RG3, and Luck before him. Maybe Ryan and Stafford too. Dyno-wise, there's a lot of young guys not far behind Cam that I may bump over the top with strong finishes too. And Romo or Big Ben at cheaper prices look more enticing as well. There are just so many very good QB's in the game now to risk more investing in a guy I don't trust.
Taking a step outside of football because there just are not football examples to site with Cam, people with special skill sets (or just backed into a position because of their last name) that don't have what it takes to be a leader go through periods in which people believe in them because they say and do the right things...for a while. Eventually they revert back to form and f up again. Sometimes those people are able to overcome those issues and learn from their mistakes and go on to be great at what they do. Call me a cynic, but I see much more of the former than the latter. I think it's more likely Cam regresses again and has a flame out like he did in that Giants game and the more often bad stuff like that happens the less others are going to believe in their leader and the foundation crumbles around them. That's the absolute worst case scenario, to be sure. Entirely possible this is a new leaf, which I have said all along, I just don't think others are factoring in the associated risks too. It's why Cam is going to be outside my top 7 again and possibly top 10, redraft and dynasty, again.
I'll roll the dice if the price is right, but without hesitation I am taking Rodgers, Brady, Brees, Peyton, RG3, and Luck before him. Maybe Ryan and Stafford too. Dyno-wise, there's a lot of young guys not far behind Cam that I may bump over the top with strong finishes too. And Romo or Big Ben at cheaper prices look more enticing as well. There are just so many very good QB's in the game now to risk more investing in a guy I don't trust.
touche
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