ATC1

***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE***

9,879 posts in this topic

Let's use this thread for the debate, so we can keep the argument out of the individual incident threads for those who want to see updates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armed classroomsFor years, some areas in the US have allowed "armed classrooms" to deter (or truncate) future attacks, presumably by changing helpless victims into armed defenders. In 2008, Harrold Independent School District in Texas became the first public school district in the U.S. to allow teachers with state-issued firearm-carry permits to carry their arms in the classroom; special additional training and ricochet-resistant ammunition were required for participating teachers.[106] Students at the University of Utah have been allowed to carry concealed pistols (so long as they possess the appropriate state license) since a State Supreme Court decision in 2006.[107][108] In addition to Utah, Wisconsin and Mississippi each have legislation that allow students, faculty and employees with the proper permit, to carry concealed weapons on their public university's campuses.[109][110] Colorado and Oregon state courts have ruled in favor of Campus Carry laws by denying University's proposals to ban guns on campus. Ruling that the UC Board of Regents and the Oregon University System did not have the authority to ban weapons on campus.[111][112] A selective ban was then re-instated, wherein Oregon state universities enacted a ban on guns in school building and sporting events or by anyone contracted with the university in question.[113]Michigan State University as of June 2009, allows students to carry firearms on campus,the university still prohibits knives and other non-firearm weapons however.A commentary in the conservative National Review Online argues that the armed school approach for preventing school attacks, while new in the US, has been used successfully for many years in Israel and Thailand.[114] Teachers and school officials in Israel are allowed and encouraged to carry firearms if they have former military experience in the IDF, which almost all do. However, statistics on what percentage of teachers are actually armed are unavailable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Armed_classroomsBig supporter.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We'll get to it. I...just can't right now. Too emotional. This is ####ed up.

Understand, but there will be people that bring it up. Trying to get it out the other threads.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Serious question, why are non lethal weapons not available to people in schools? Are they simply not effective? I mean a taser or rubber bullet gun is going to slow somebody down a bit at least.

I just don't think through rules and lockdown this type of event is preventable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We'll get to it. I...just can't right now. Too emotional. This is ####ed up.

Understand, but there will be people that bring it up. Trying to get it out the other threads.
will?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I could probably be convinced, but I'd honestly be just as concerned about most teachers losing it and using that gun improperly as I would about someone breaking in and starting a shooting. I hear about a lot more "workplace" shootings than school shootings.
Really? I guess mass shootings are more school related. They get more victims because there is no other threat. Movie theaters, some malls, government buildings and schools are gun free zones.

Now, I will agree with being concerned about teachers being able to use the gun. I am all having regular training mandatory for those who want to conceal carry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I could probably be convinced, but I'd honestly be just as concerned about most teachers losing it and using that gun improperly as I would about someone breaking in and starting a shooting. I hear about a lot more "workplace" shootings than school shootings.
Really? I guess mass shootings are more school related. They get more victims because there is no other threat. Movie theaters, some malls, government buildings and schools are gun free zones.

Now, I will agree with being concerned about teachers being able to use the gun. I am all having regular training mandatory for those who want to conceal carry.

Oh, I don't mean the teacher being unable to use it. I mean I'd be concerned that a disgruntled teacher would carry out a workplace shooting and not set off any alarms beforehand because he/she was allowed to carry weapons into the school.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually pretty simple, the old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is spot on.

The hand wringers think that once all guns are banned the criminals will hand over their guns because it's illegal. Ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Serious question, why are non lethal weapons not available to people in schools? Are they simply not effective? I mean a taser or rubber bullet gun is going to slow somebody down a bit at least. I just don't think through rules and lockdown this type of event is preventable.

hmm not sure on tasers. It would be difficult to conceal from the children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Serious question, why are non lethal weapons not available to people in schools? Are they simply not effective? I mean a taser or rubber bullet gun is going to slow somebody down a bit at least. I just don't think through rules and lockdown this type of event is preventable.

hmm not sure on tasers. It would be difficult to conceal from the children.
Maybe, but so would a firearm. At least with a taser if a kid gets a hold of it you aren't looking at a body count in the teens you are looking at a bunch of soiled pants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I could probably be convinced, but I'd honestly be just as concerned about most teachers losing it and using that gun improperly as I would about someone breaking in and starting a shooting. I hear about a lot more "workplace" shootings than school shootings.
Really? I guess mass shootings are more school related. They get more victims because there is no other threat. Movie theaters, some malls, government buildings and schools are gun free zones.

Now, I will agree with being concerned about teachers being able to use the gun. I am all having regular training mandatory for those who want to conceal carry.

Oh, I don't mean the teacher being unable to use it. I mean I'd be concerned that a disgruntled teacher would carry out a workplace shooting and not set off any alarms beforehand because he/she was allowed to carry weapons into the school.
In order to have a concealed carry permit, you can not have a record of any type of violent or drug related crime or even a DWI in LA. Don't know the numbers, but I don't think the people with the permits to carry are the ones who are the shooters in the workplace.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armed classroomsFor years, some areas in the US have allowed "armed classrooms" to deter (or truncate) future attacks, presumably by changing helpless victims into armed defenders. In 2008, Harrold Independent School District in Texas became the first public school district in the U.S. to allow teachers with state-issued firearm-carry permits to carry their arms in the classroom; special additional training and ricochet-resistant ammunition were required for participating teachers.[106] Students at the University of Utah have been allowed to carry concealed pistols (so long as they possess the appropriate state license) since a State Supreme Court decision in 2006.[107][108] In addition to Utah, Wisconsin and Mississippi each have legislation that allow students, faculty and employees with the proper permit, to carry concealed weapons on their public university's campuses.[109][110] Colorado and Oregon state courts have ruled in favor of Campus Carry laws by denying University's proposals to ban guns on campus. Ruling that the UC Board of Regents and the Oregon University System did not have the authority to ban weapons on campus.[111][112] A selective ban was then re-instated, wherein Oregon state universities enacted a ban on guns in school building and sporting events or by anyone contracted with the university in question.[113]Michigan State University as of June 2009, allows students to carry firearms on campus,the university still prohibits knives and other non-firearm weapons however.A commentary in the conservative National Review Online argues that the armed school approach for preventing school attacks, while new in the US, has been used successfully for many years in Israel and Thailand.[114] Teachers and school officials in Israel are allowed and encouraged to carry firearms if they have former military experience in the IDF, which almost all do. However, statistics on what percentage of teachers are actually armed are unavailable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Armed_classroomsBig supporter.
Where do you teach?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears the school shooting was planned with two shooters involved. I am not sure stricter gun control laws would have prevented this from happening.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Serious question, why are non lethal weapons not available to people in schools? Are they simply not effective? I mean a taser or rubber bullet gun is going to slow somebody down a bit at least. I just don't think through rules and lockdown this type of event is preventable.

hmm not sure on tasers. It would be difficult to conceal from the children.
Maybe, but so would a firearm. At least with a taser if a kid gets a hold of it you aren't looking at a body count in the teens you are looking at a bunch of soiled pants.
If you see me anywhere out of a gun zone, I'm probably carrying, but you would never know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armed classroomsFor years, some areas in the US have allowed "armed classrooms" to deter (or truncate) future attacks, presumably by changing helpless victims into armed defenders. In 2008, Harrold Independent School District in Texas became the first public school district in the U.S. to allow teachers with state-issued firearm-carry permits to carry their arms in the classroom; special additional training and ricochet-resistant ammunition were required for participating teachers.[106] Students at the University of Utah have been allowed to carry concealed pistols (so long as they possess the appropriate state license) since a State Supreme Court decision in 2006.[107][108] In addition to Utah, Wisconsin and Mississippi each have legislation that allow students, faculty and employees with the proper permit, to carry concealed weapons on their public university's campuses.[109][110] Colorado and Oregon state courts have ruled in favor of Campus Carry laws by denying University's proposals to ban guns on campus. Ruling that the UC Board of Regents and the Oregon University System did not have the authority to ban weapons on campus.[111][112] A selective ban was then re-instated, wherein Oregon state universities enacted a ban on guns in school building and sporting events or by anyone contracted with the university in question.[113]Michigan State University as of June 2009, allows students to carry firearms on campus,the university still prohibits knives and other non-firearm weapons however.A commentary in the conservative National Review Online argues that the armed school approach for preventing school attacks, while new in the US, has been used successfully for many years in Israel and Thailand.[114] Teachers and school officials in Israel are allowed and encouraged to carry firearms if they have former military experience in the IDF, which almost all do. However, statistics on what percentage of teachers are actually armed are unavailable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Armed_classroomsBig supporter.
Where do you teach?
I don't. My job has me off and on university campus. Edited by ATC1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In most of the mass shooting cases, the shooter gave off signs that he was unhinged and possibly going to do something bad. Hell, Loughner was making threats against Giffords well before he actually shot her. The best way to stop this stuff from happening isn't to ban all guns, or a certain type of gun, it's to be observant of those around you, recognize when someone is mentally unstable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armed classroomsFor years, some areas in the US have allowed "armed classrooms" to deter (or truncate) future attacks, presumably by changing helpless victims into armed defenders. In 2008, Harrold Independent School District in Texas became the first public school district in the U.S. to allow teachers with state-issued firearm-carry permits to carry their arms in the classroom; special additional training and ricochet-resistant ammunition were required for participating teachers.[106] Students at the University of Utah have been allowed to carry concealed pistols (so long as they possess the appropriate state license) since a State Supreme Court decision in 2006.[107][108] In addition to Utah, Wisconsin and Mississippi each have legislation that allow students, faculty and employees with the proper permit, to carry concealed weapons on their public university's campuses.[109][110] Colorado and Oregon state courts have ruled in favor of Campus Carry laws by denying University's proposals to ban guns on campus. Ruling that the UC Board of Regents and the Oregon University System did not have the authority to ban weapons on campus.[111][112] A selective ban was then re-instated, wherein Oregon state universities enacted a ban on guns in school building and sporting events or by anyone contracted with the university in question.[113]Michigan State University as of June 2009, allows students to carry firearms on campus,the university still prohibits knives and other non-firearm weapons however.A commentary in the conservative National Review Online argues that the armed school approach for preventing school attacks, while new in the US, has been used successfully for many years in Israel and Thailand.[114] Teachers and school officials in Israel are allowed and encouraged to carry firearms if they have former military experience in the IDF, which almost all do. However, statistics on what percentage of teachers are actually armed are unavailable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Armed_classroomsBig supporter.
Where do you teach?
I don't. My job has me off and on university campus.
Can you be more specific? I'd like to be able to determine whether or not you should be armed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It appears the school shooting was planned with two shooters involved. I am not sure stricter gun control laws would have prevented this from happening.

Sad thing is IMO.. nothing. If someone wants a gun they're not hard to get legally or illegally. People want to think gun control will stop a killer or persons that want to do harm. I'm not one of those people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In most of the mass shooting cases, the shooter gave off signs that he was unhinged and possibly going to do something bad. Hell, Loughner was making threats against Giffords well before he actually shot her. The best way to stop this stuff from happening isn't to ban all guns, or a certain type of gun, it's to be observant of those around you, recognize when someone is mentally unstable.

And then??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Armed classroomsFor years, some areas in the US have allowed "armed classrooms" to deter (or truncate) future attacks, presumably by changing helpless victims into armed defenders. In 2008, Harrold Independent School District in Texas became the first public school district in the U.S. to allow teachers with state-issued firearm-carry permits to carry their arms in the classroom; special additional training and ricochet-resistant ammunition were required for participating teachers.[106] Students at the University of Utah have been allowed to carry concealed pistols (so long as they possess the appropriate state license) since a State Supreme Court decision in 2006.[107][108] In addition to Utah, Wisconsin and Mississippi each have legislation that allow students, faculty and employees with the proper permit, to carry concealed weapons on their public university's campuses.[109][110] Colorado and Oregon state courts have ruled in favor of Campus Carry laws by denying University's proposals to ban guns on campus. Ruling that the UC Board of Regents and the Oregon University System did not have the authority to ban weapons on campus.[111][112] A selective ban was then re-instated, wherein Oregon state universities enacted a ban on guns in school building and sporting events or by anyone contracted with the university in question.[113]Michigan State University as of June 2009, allows students to carry firearms on campus,the university still prohibits knives and other non-firearm weapons however.A commentary in the conservative National Review Online argues that the armed school approach for preventing school attacks, while new in the US, has been used successfully for many years in Israel and Thailand.[114] Teachers and school officials in Israel are allowed and encouraged to carry firearms if they have former military experience in the IDF, which almost all do. However, statistics on what percentage of teachers are actually armed are unavailable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting#Armed_classroomsBig supporter.
Where do you teach?
I don't. My job has me off and on university campus.
Can you be more specific? I'd like to be able to determine whether or not you should be armed.
That is part of my point. Why does it matter? If I have gone through training much like a police officer to learn how to use a weapon and have no prior record. What should it matter? Edited by ATC1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Serious question, why are non lethal weapons not available to people in schools? Are they simply not effective? I mean a taser or rubber bullet gun is going to slow somebody down a bit at least. I just don't think through rules and lockdown this type of event is preventable.

hmm not sure on tasers. It would be difficult to conceal from the children.
Maybe, but so would a firearm. At least with a taser if a kid gets a hold of it you aren't looking at a body count in the teens you are looking at a bunch of soiled pants.
If you see me anywhere out of a gun zone, I'm probably carrying, but you would never know.
This is part of the problem with these discussions. You have people that are very comfortable with firearms and don't want them out of their hands, but they represent such a small subset of the population such as to make such an approach untenable. In a school setting you would want 1-2 people out of 40-50 or on up to 200 staff to have such a predilection for gun use I would argue that this rate is perhaps as high as 1000x the national average. (I looked this up later in Texas CCL is 0.16% of population) So then you look at highly trained PD members and the cost is too high for such a thing based on the cost of life risk equation.So training people to have less lethal options available seems like a reasonable compromise however it is not discussed as an option openly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might want to look at WHY people do these things and not HOW.

Hint: It isn't a gun problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In most of the mass shooting cases, the shooter gave off signs that he was unhinged and possibly going to do something bad. Hell, Loughner was making threats against Giffords well before he actually shot her. The best way to stop this stuff from happening isn't to ban all guns, or a certain type of gun, it's to be observant of those around you, recognize when someone is mentally unstable.

And then??
Notify authorities. Of course, that would require the authorities to do something (as in Giffords, the police thought Loughner was harmless. Whoops.) Now it won't stop everything. Nothing will.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Serious question, why are non lethal weapons not available to people in schools? Are they simply not effective? I mean a taser or rubber bullet gun is going to slow somebody down a bit at least. I just don't think through rules and lockdown this type of event is preventable.

hmm not sure on tasers. It would be difficult to conceal from the children.
Maybe, but so would a firearm. At least with a taser if a kid gets a hold of it you aren't looking at a body count in the teens you are looking at a bunch of soiled pants.
If you see me anywhere out of a gun zone, I'm probably carrying, but you would never know.
This is part of the problem with these discussions. You have people that are very comfortable with firearms and don't want them out of their hands, but they represent such a small subset of the population such as to make such an approach untenable. In a school setting you would want 1-2 people out of 40-50 or on up to 200 staff to have such a predilection for gun use I would argue that this rate is perhaps as high as 1000x the national average. (I looked this up later in Texas CCL is 0.16% of population) So then you look at highly trained PD members and the cost is too high for such a thing based on the cost of life risk equation.So training people to have less lethal options available seems like a reasonable compromise however it is not discussed as an option openly.
Sad but true. And you bring up a good point on the ability to carry a taser. I have not gone through the proper training for a taser, so I can not comment of the possible effectiveness it may have.ETA: If more people familiarize themselves with proper use and saftey, those numbers should improve. Edited by ATC1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just throwing this in here. Picture of the type of gun used .223 caliber rifle

:confused:

Police have recovered two weapons from the suspect, a Glock and a Sig Sauer, the source said. It's unclear if police killed the suspect.

both of those are handguns.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Might want to look at WHY people do these things and not HOW. Hint: It isn't a gun problem.

:goodposting:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually pretty simple, the old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is spot on.The hand wringers think that once all guns are banned the criminals will hand over their guns because it's illegal. Ridiculous.

Then why don't we see more mass stabbings?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I must have my .223 caliber military rifle for home protection!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just throwing this in here. Picture of the type of gun used .223 caliber rifle

:confused:

Police have recovered two weapons from the suspect, a Glock and a Sig Sauer, the source said. It's unclear if police killed the suspect.

both of those are handguns.
It's what the AP is reporting now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually pretty simple, the old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is spot on.

The hand wringers think that once all guns are banned the criminals will hand over their guns because it's illegal. Ridiculous.

Then why don't we see more mass stabbings?
My link

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually pretty simple, the old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is spot on.

The hand wringers think that once all guns are banned the criminals will hand over their guns because it's illegal. Ridiculous.

Then why don't we see more mass stabbings?
My link
I think the "Injures" part of the headline is kind of relevant to this debate. It's a very different headline than "Kills."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we all can agree no citizens should be able to have pipe bombs, grenades, bazookas, rocket launchers, or Claymore Mines. Why is that? I mean what's more effective than Claymore mines to protect your house. Post a sign out front that says this house is protected by Claymore Mines...proceed at your own risk. Or using a few grenades to do some sport fishing. Dead fish float up and you scoop them up and eat for weeks.

I state crazy talk like this, because some guns have no place in society. Assault Rifles, Rapid shooting guns, etc. What's the point of allowing citizens to own these except to be used for killing lots of people. Make the penalty for owning this type of gun severe and they will go away. Just like normal people don't own pipe bombs.

Let's at least start down a path that says we are trying to fix this problem. Just ignoring it with stupid phrases like guns don't kill people, people kill people make no sense. Because if that was true, we should all be able to go buy our grenades. I have never seen a grenade injure someone that was not tossed by a person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually pretty simple, the old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is spot on.

The hand wringers think that once all guns are banned the criminals will hand over their guns because it's illegal. Ridiculous.

Then why don't we see more mass stabbings?
My link
I think the "Injures" part of the headline is kind of relevant to this debate. It's a very different headline than "Kills."
Yes - at least those 22 kids had the chance to grow up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm an ardent supporter of gun rights and own quite a few shotguns, handgun, rifles, etc. I'd give up all of them in an instance if I thought for one second it would do any good.

Edited by Blick
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually pretty simple, the old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is spot on.

The hand wringers think that once all guns are banned the criminals will hand over their guns because it's illegal. Ridiculous.

Then why don't we see more mass stabbings?
My link
I think the "Injures" part of the headline is kind of relevant to this debate. It's a very different headline than "Kills."
So then, you're part of the crowd that believes if all guns are banned, these problems will go away?

Again, I wish my world was as simple as yours.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's actually pretty simple, the old saying "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is spot on.The hand wringers think that once all guns are banned the criminals will hand over their guns because it's illegal. Ridiculous.

What percent of criminal acts are stopped or somehow prevented by armed citizens? I know you don't have a percentage and can't because it would be something around .0001%So the argument of loose gun control laws stopping crime is bull####. After Aurora I proposed that anyone who wants to acquire a gun have to go through a psychological check as well as a background check. The first should be a call to the person's medical insurance to see if they covered any psychological drugs or counselling. If either is found the person would have to wait while the seller talked to the counselor or dr. who prescribed the drugs. If either felt that the person posed any sort of risks to other or himself, he/she would not be able to purchase a gun and be put on a police watch-list for attempting to purchase a gun.I was laughed off this board because of concerns around what it would take to build the infrastructure to execute and the invasion of privacy.I wonder how people feel about those concerns now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.