NCCommish
Footballguy
Im.going KB, Fun, Garrett, Ginn, Brown and Byrd. I think Garrett over Hill and Bersin loses the numbers game.
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****The 2019 Carolina Panthers Thread**** We Rhule At Losing (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter BassNBrew
- Start date
Well, might as well put my stake in the ground too. I'll go KB, Funchess and Ginn as the starting 3 and backups are Hill, Garrett and Brown. I'll be honest, that crew looks like a really deep, really talented pool of WRs with tremendous size, speed and combos of both.
NCCommish
Footballguy
The best part is all of these could be pretty good groups. That is what you want from a position group.
Yeah, lots of flexibility. Red zone offense could be damn near impossible to stop. Benjamin, Funchess and Hill/Garrett gives you 3 WRs 6'3"+ and Olsen to go with the running game and Cam's running ability. Really, really hope the DEs gel so we can have a little fun in the draft. Wouldn't it be fun to see someone like Dalvin Cook lining up behind Cam for a few years.NCCommish said:
I've read a lot of off-season stuff and haven't heard anything good about Bersin or bad about Garrett. Honestly, outside of fluff pieces haven't seen much "great" outside of Funchess. Where are you getting your news? (Not trying to be a ####, trying to see if there are other good sources out there)
Also, not hearing anything negative on Bersin may not mean a lot. This is his 3rd year with the team, they kind of know what they have. With KB out for the year and Funchess being a rookie, Ginn and Brown not exactly being established at top WRs on the team, Bersin had 9 catches in 2015. That doesn't say a whole lot about him. Security blanket means catches, but nothing fancy, I think I used the wrong term there. Maybe more of a devil you know than a security blanket.
Worm
slimy ninja
Just the usual - twitter, huddle, bbr, etc. Reading the huddle guy respond to some message board posts with what he's seen.
I'll say this, if Bersin doesn't make the team we should be happy. Not specifically because of Bersin not making it, but because it means our lower level guys have stepped their game up.
Thanks.
Also agreed on Bersin, that's exactly what I said above about feeling good about the young guys if we don't keep him.
ETA: Found the huddle, very cool. I usually check the news/twitter, but not that. News is usually catscratchreader.com, the observer and panthers.com.
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pantherclub
Footballguy
Seems like every year this is this type of hype on a player that never pans out.
I think there is a less than 0% chance Hill makes the team unless the injury bug strikes again.
I am starting to think Damiere Byrd may make the roster over him or maybe Garrett. Maybe I am thinking too highly of Garrett. Got some good press in rookie camp and he was someone I had noticed pre-draft and was surprised he fell so far. Either way, it's really nice seeing Byrd and Funchess getting rave reviews and Hill getting good reviews. KB is going to be taking it a bit easy, so not expecting to hear much about him and Ginn and Brown played well last year with KB out (drops aside).pantherclub said:
I am starting to think Damiere Byrd may make the roster over him or maybe Garrett. Maybe I am thinking too highly of Garrett. Got some good press in rookie camp and he was someone I had noticed pre-draft and was surprised he fell so far. Either way, it's really nice seeing Byrd and Funchess getting rave reviews and Hill getting good reviews. KB is going to be taking it a bit easy, so not expecting to hear much about him and Ginn and Brown played well last year with KB out (drops aside).pantherclub said:
NCCommish
Footballguy
Speaking of Hill. Apparently he was a big part of Kelvin's rehab. Pushing him when he needed it and helping him.stay on course. Hill's injury was apparently more severe than KBs and the general.concensus is that he has made a great recorvery basically by working non-stop. Proehl is saying if he picks up where he left he will challenge for a starting job. Proehl says Hill was going to make him famous last season before the injury, he was that improved. If RP says so I'm down.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Rivera gets an extension that added one year to his current deal.but ups his pay to 6 million a year through 2018. Now on a par with coaches like Tomlin in Pittsburgh. Carrol.and Peyton are tied at 8 million a year for top spot.
Rivera has 3 division titles, 1 NFC title, 2 Coach of the Year and a Superbowl appearance in the last 3 seasons.
Rivera has 3 division titles, 1 NFC title, 2 Coach of the Year and a Superbowl appearance in the last 3 seasons.
From Carolinahuddle.com:
The rookie corners seem to have made some strides and as he said, might be a great thing they are having to work against a nice group of WRs now.
Another thing on that page mentioned that Short and Butler stood out in some drills. I really hope we extend Short and I think Butler is going to be a great addition. Keeping those 2 and Star together for a while could do wonders for Davis' career length, Kuechly and Shaq. If those guys are allowed to roam free, the speed they have to get to plays and cover WRs. I'm really looking forward to this season.
Some really good tidbits. Beau Sandland is an interesting prospect, been making nice catches and could be a real nice addition/future replacement for Olsen, seems like a great 7th round pick.
The rookie corners seem to have made some strides and as he said, might be a great thing they are having to work against a nice group of WRs now.
Another thing on that page mentioned that Short and Butler stood out in some drills. I really hope we extend Short and I think Butler is going to be a great addition. Keeping those 2 and Star together for a while could do wonders for Davis' career length, Kuechly and Shaq. If those guys are allowed to roam free, the speed they have to get to plays and cover WRs. I'm really looking forward to this season.
This doesn't look like a 320+ lb DT. I don't want him to replace Short. I want to see those two tearing #### up for years together.
http://www.carolinahuddle.com/wp-content/uploads/carolina-panthers-minicamp-2016-14-1.jpg
http://www.carolinahuddle.com/wp-content/uploads/carolina-panthers-minicamp-2016-14-1.jpg
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pantherclub
Footballguy
Damn DG I trust you but damn. You give that to Oher but play hard ball with Norman. Like I said I trust your plan but you can still question some moves. I dont think he was that good last year. Like you said pretty serviceable or average. I dont recall any games he was an absolute road grinder.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Oof, not a fan of that deal at that price. That said, if only 8 million guaranteed, is that basically a one year deal and if he continues to improve (played much better last year than prior), keep him around? I'd be fine if the structure is like that.
Personally, I'd have rather used all of that to extend Short and give him Cox money. It says we are still negotiating with Short. I really, really, really don't want to lose him. I guess the worst case is that we have him 2 years, but ugh.
Well, based on overthecap, that is the 18th highest paid tackle contract and almost half of the top tackle contracts, so it's not a premium. With all the young guys below him, I would think in 2017/2018/2019, $7M for a left tackle will be a below average LT contract.
We need to draft a LT/RB replacement early next year.
If we aren't working hard on Short, please tell me we are working hard on Norwell and Turner. We have so many guys up for contracts after 2017. That 2014 draft class was ridiculous and it's going to be hard to keep them all. Benjamin (5th year option at least for 2018), Ealy, Turner, Boston and Benwickere. Such an awesome draft, such a PIA on the salary cap after 2017.
After this post, I looked at salaries and the time 2017, 2018 and 2019 roll around, it will be below average. If we find an OT to groom and he is phenomenal, then we release Oher, Since we don't have that player yet, safe to say they likely aren't starting until 2018 at the earliest. Nice to have Oher locked in just in case and if he continues to get better, then he is not going to be expensive. That said, paying Kalil just over $8 for 5 pro-bowls, I would have thought we could get Oher for $5-6M. That may not seem like much difference, but if we lose KK for $1-2M per year, it is contracts like this that make me worry.
By the way, I would say this is what DG is looking at (info from Sportrac/Overthecap)
Current Cap Space ($28M), 2017 ($42 - table below doesn't have Oher)
Carolina Panthers
Year
Total Liabilities
Salary Cap (Projected)
2016
$129,001,716
$157,431,541
2017
$117,328,699
$166,000,000
2018
$77,379,747
$178,000,000
2019
$46,175,614
$190,000,000
2017 extensions needed (key guys, but not including guys like Norwell/Brown who are RFAs, like Remmers was this year):
Short (Franchise is $13.4), Coleman, Ginn, Johnson, Remmers, Klein, Addison
My take: Short will get franchised, leaving about $30M in space. Klein is gone, will get an offer we won't match, but will get compensatory pick. Johnson is gone as well if he plays well, I don't see him taking another cheap deal. if he plays well and gets a nice deal then again another good compensatory pick. Remmers is gone I hope, because that would mean Williams is playing very and we have him cheap through 2018. Coleman and Ginn are interesting cases. I hope younger guys take over for them, but seeing as how they've thrived with the Panthers and not so much elsewhere, I think they could still be cheap enough to resign. If they leave for decent money, then more compensatory picks.
2017 end result: I may be a negative nelly, but I think that may be the last season with Short as I can see us using 2017 off season and cap to extend Turner (will likely be $10-11M per year), Norwell (maybe $7M per?), Ealy (who knows?) and Star ($9-10M per). Not sure we can afford Short at $16-17M per season unless we can parlay the extra cap to his deal. We could have about $50 total this year and next as carryover. That said, if we lose Short, Johnson, Klein and others, we are going to be stocked with picks in 2018.
2018 extensions needed (key guys, but not including Benjamin can have 5th year option at an affordable $8M):
Short (assuming franchise), Turner, Norwell, Brown, Star, Ealy, Boston, Benwickere, Davis, Stewart, Tolbert, Gano
My take: I guess that 2014 draft was pretty good. Jesus, Joseph and Mary, holy mother of god this is where the rubber meets the road and very likely the nightmare that work DG up to not paying Norman $15M per year. According to the cap above, we have $100M to work with plus the $50M we carry over, but some people will have to go/retire/take Johnson-we-love-the-team type deals.
2018 end result: I think we extend Ealy, Turner, Norwell, Star and Boston. I have no idea who else we can afford at that point, but just like 2018's draft, I think we will rack up some 2019 compensatory picks.
2019 is impossible to even preview as we literally only have contracts for the 2016 draft picks and Cam, Oher and Luke, oh and the 5th year option on Shaq. Cam signed through 2020 and Luke through 2021. The next couple years are going to be filled with extensions, awful decisions (it would be nice to still have Norman with unlimited cap) and compensatory picks. I think the only thing that could save us from going insane while watching key guys we love leave is the extra draft picks and knowing how well we tend to draft. If we continue to draft well, we will be a top team for a long time. Those extra picks should help. Already looking forward to an extra 3rd next year.
Thoughts?
ETA: I do have 3 kids, a job and way too many sporting events. I just really enjoy numbers and analysis and I probably should be working as a capologist. Anyone who knows Dave Gettleman, let him know I'm available and graduated with honors from a top 10 school. I'd much rather be helping him out than what I really do!
Current Cap Space ($28M), 2017 ($42 - table below doesn't have Oher)
Carolina Panthers
Year
Total Liabilities
Salary Cap (Projected)
2016
$129,001,716
$157,431,541
2017
$117,328,699
$166,000,000
2018
$77,379,747
$178,000,000
2019
$46,175,614
$190,000,000
2017 extensions needed (key guys, but not including guys like Norwell/Brown who are RFAs, like Remmers was this year):
Short (Franchise is $13.4), Coleman, Ginn, Johnson, Remmers, Klein, Addison
My take: Short will get franchised, leaving about $30M in space. Klein is gone, will get an offer we won't match, but will get compensatory pick. Johnson is gone as well if he plays well, I don't see him taking another cheap deal. if he plays well and gets a nice deal then again another good compensatory pick. Remmers is gone I hope, because that would mean Williams is playing very and we have him cheap through 2018. Coleman and Ginn are interesting cases. I hope younger guys take over for them, but seeing as how they've thrived with the Panthers and not so much elsewhere, I think they could still be cheap enough to resign. If they leave for decent money, then more compensatory picks.
2017 end result: I may be a negative nelly, but I think that may be the last season with Short as I can see us using 2017 off season and cap to extend Turner (will likely be $10-11M per year), Norwell (maybe $7M per?), Ealy (who knows?) and Star ($9-10M per). Not sure we can afford Short at $16-17M per season unless we can parlay the extra cap to his deal. We could have about $50 total this year and next as carryover. That said, if we lose Short, Johnson, Klein and others, we are going to be stocked with picks in 2018.
2018 extensions needed (key guys, but not including Benjamin can have 5th year option at an affordable $8M):
Short (assuming franchise), Turner, Norwell, Brown, Star, Ealy, Boston, Benwickere, Davis, Stewart, Tolbert, Gano
My take: I guess that 2014 draft was pretty good. Jesus, Joseph and Mary, holy mother of god this is where the rubber meets the road and very likely the nightmare that work DG up to not paying Norman $15M per year. According to the cap above, we have $100M to work with plus the $50M we carry over, but some people will have to go/retire/take Johnson-we-love-the-team type deals.
2018 end result: I think we extend Ealy, Turner, Norwell, Star and Boston. I have no idea who else we can afford at that point, but just like 2018's draft, I think we will rack up some 2019 compensatory picks.
2019 is impossible to even preview as we literally only have contracts for the 2016 draft picks and Cam, Oher and Luke, oh and the 5th year option on Shaq. Cam signed through 2020 and Luke through 2021. The next couple years are going to be filled with extensions, awful decisions (it would be nice to still have Norman with unlimited cap) and compensatory picks. I think the only thing that could save us from going insane while watching key guys we love leave is the extra draft picks and knowing how well we tend to draft. If we continue to draft well, we will be a top team for a long time. Those extra picks should help. Already looking forward to an extra 3rd next year.
Thoughts?
ETA: I do have 3 kids, a job and way too many sporting events. I just really enjoy numbers and analysis and I probably should be working as a capologist. Anyone who knows Dave Gettleman, let him know I'm available and graduated with honors from a top 10 school. I'd much rather be helping him out than what I really do!
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BassNBrew
Footballguy
NCCommish
Footballguy
The key to survival in the salary cap era is drafting well and funding gems amongst cheap veterans and UDFAs. The problems we have are because Dave and his staff have done a good job. This is what sustainable success looks like these days. You identify a few key players, you pay them and then you fill in around them. Everyone else is expendable.
Is he even healthy yet? Benjamin and Hill who are a lot younger are still not going 100% yet. When will he be ready? Good cheap insurance/veteran leadership.
Do you think we can keep Short past 2017? I think we're starting a run of getting some nice compensatory picks but losing some good players. Guys like Klein, Ginn, Coleman and maybe Johnson will help more because they may sign nice deals and we may be able to replace them.
I think now that compensatory picks can be traded, DG is going to try and get/use them. As we've seen the past couple drafts we don't need quantity so we're likely going to keep trading up to get all the guys we love. As you said we've done really well with that lately.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I'm not sure we would use the tag on Short. If we don't get a deal this may be it. I think you can thank Hardy for lack of enthusiasm for actually doing a season with a tagged player. I think DG is willing to bet on himself and his ability to replace players. There are a few untouchables maybe but I really think he will let most people walk rather than get back into cap hell by over paying.
Hardy is a whole different case. Unless you think Short is in anyway a worry, which I don't think he is, I think it'd be like Norman except at a position we like.
I am starting to have a sinking feeling that DG may look at the numbers and say Short = Turner + Norwell and then allows us to keep Star/Ealy. Maybe the cap will go up enough and we have enough carry over to keep them all. That set of players could be in the neighborhood of 50M per year.
Sucks it couldn't be worked out with him, but it is pretty obvious that we couldn't pay him what he was going to get at a position where we don't pay a premium. I hope we can somehow finagle the deal with Short by offering him enough up front to make the numbers work for DG. While I appreciate Norman coming to peace with not being here anymore, I really don't want to see Short taking out an ad 1 or 2 years from now.
NCCommish
Footballguy
No I don't think Short is going to get into trouble. I just sense a we got burned paying a guy to sit on his couch vibe from some.things. May just be me over thinking. And in any case the way the market is overheated his one year rental might be more than we wanted to pay to start with. Same thing that really happened with Norman. People overpaid DBs last season, with some really poor play to show for it in more than one case, and then Norman's rental is higher than the per year we wanted to pay. So we cut bait. Just think that's the more likely scenario. Hope the rook shows up. Hope Dave has a couple more up his sleeve.stbugs said:
The Commish
Footballguy
I told you guys to be patient with Funchess...he's a manchild and REALLY raw. I still think he's a season or two away from showing what he can really do.
stratocatter
Footballguy
I'm not a huge huge Norman fan and did not want to invest heavily long term but I believe we are really gonna regret not having him on the team in 2016, a lot.
NCCommish
Footballguy
I think the rookies will be rookies this year and make mistakes. But this isn't about just this year. Given a little time I believe these young guys can be solid at a minimum and really think Worley has a chance to be a star. Long term. Can't think like we have a limited window and are one guy away. We have a lot of great young talent on this team and we are trying to build it so our window is always open. To quote BBR don't want to be the Jets. Overspent when they finally got some cap space and now can't make deals they need to make.
The Commish
Footballguy
You may be right....I don't know how quickly he's progressing. I just know how far he had to go.
NCCommish
Footballguy
All the reports are it's night and day from last year. You saw it coming last season. Something switched on around game 8 and he really started to show up. Lots of talk about well run routes and using his body well to position against the DBs so far. We'll see once they get the pads on.
The Commish
Footballguy
And this, along with consistency are the big areas he HAS to improve. Hopefully he's ahead of where I figured he was. Hope to be wrong about this.
100% true. Norman was first and foremost about salary and cap for other positions. I think DG woke up after not getting a deal he liked and realized he'd rather have a compensatory 3rd, 14M extra for carry over and 12-15M per year extra after that for other players. Oher + Kalil extensions = Norman. See my post quoted above, there is a salary cap reckoning coming and we need good drafts. Right now, DG isn't looking for quantity and has traded up the past two drafts and I think the compensatory picks will allow him to keep doing that and keep getting the guys he wants, which he seems to hit on most of the time.
I also think the team wanted to stop screwing around with new DBs every year and get a solid core of 4. I think Bene will be a relatively cheap extension, he isn't going to be Josh Norman desirable, and that they'll have these guys together for at worst 4 years.
They'll have mistakes, but as long as they grow this year, we should be in the playoffs where they will have a full year under their belts. As important as their development is, the other almost as important thing is how well Ealy/CJ/Butler/young DEs play. If CJ and Ealy play like they did in the playoffs and the young guys, including Butler can provide solid rotations to maintain health, the D-Line could be monsters this year. That would allow Shaq, TD and Kuechly to roam a bit more and assist the CBs. Throw in Boston looking good and this D may be able to protect the rookies a bit more than we think. We'll see.
I hope you are wrong as well. He likely got a lot more reps in 2015 and in OTAs due to Benjamin (and Hill to a lesser degree) being out. Don't forget that with the playoff run, he got 19 games his rookie season and tons of practice time. It doesn't surprise me with this coaching staff that he appears to be taking huge strides after 2015.
NCCommish
Footballguy
Really looking for Ealy to blow up this season. I think he can be a huge star in this league.
