What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Is Tebow being given a Fair shot? (1 Viewer)

Is Tebow being given a fair shot to be a NFL QB?

  • Total voters
    427
Hairy Snowman

Hairy Snowman

Footballguy
I see the 73 page Tebow Era thread and decided this deserves its own thread. Tebow has been a winning QB in the NFL. He provided a dimension that has caused numerous copycats around the league. Washington, Carolina and San Francisco, just to name a few, have run a version of the read-option this year following its success with Tebow last year. However, I am saying that Tebow provides an element none of the other QBs do - durability of a fullback/H-Back. I feel he has a different frame than any of the other people playing the position. He has been running the read option since high school. He can handle a 200+ carry season. Tim brings a power running game to the QB position. As a fan of power running teams like Pittsburgh or the NYG, I know football is won or lost by your ability to dominate a 10 yard area from the line of scrimmage. Especially in the 4th quarter, Tebow helps you dominate that 10 yard area. I still believe he has not been used properly yet. I believe he needs to run the ball at least 10 times a game. Get 20+ runs out of your running back and you can expect the defense to be hurting. Because he CAN run 20 times in a game, the safety HAS to respect the QB rushing. There is no one in the game that will force the safety in the box like Tebow. So there is usually no help over the top on defense. Which is why the deep ball opens up.I think the biggest problem with Tebow is that the coaches tinkered too much with his throwing motion. Because of the safety crowding the line, I don't think that Tebow needs to have the fastest throwing motion. Or even a fast motion. He needs to see the defense and throw accurately when people are open. I think the coaches should stop listening to Steve Young, who has been trying to change his motion in a way so Tebow could fit into a west coast offense, and let Tebow just chuck the ball like a baseball the way he does. I am telling you accuracy of his throws was not a problem in high school or college. It was always the speed of his delivery. People need to see whether he can use his slow mechanics in the nfl. He has earned that. If he was accurate on his throws, there would be no debate. To the point of the post, I think he was brought to New York strictly as a publicity stunt to trump the Giants following the Super Bowl win. The owner of the Jets should be ashamed. At the least, he set back the career of Tebow, who appeared promising. In the end, Tebow won games and could still win games with 15 creative read-option plays in a run based offense. I think he is getting the shaft.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
'Hairy Snowman said:
I see the 73 page Tebow Era thread and decided this deserves its own thread. Tebow has been a winning QB in the NFL. He provided a dimension that has caused numerous copycats around the league. Washington, Carolina and San Francisco, just to name a few, have run a version of the read-option this year following its success with Tebow last year. However, I am saying that Tebow provides an element none of the other QBs do - durability of a fullback/H-Back. I feel he has a different frame than any of the other people playing the position. He has been running the read option since high school. He can handle a 200+ carry season. Tim brings a power running game to the QB position. As a fan of power running teams like Pittsburgh or the NYG, I know football is won or lost by your ability to dominate a 10 yard area from the line of scrimmage. Especially in the 4th quarter, Tebow helps you dominate that 10 yard area. I still believe he has not been used properly yet. I believe he needs to run the ball at least 10 times a game. Get 20+ runs out of your running back and you can expect the defense to be hurting. Because he CAN run 20 times in a game, the safety HAS to respect the QB rushing. There is no one in the game that will force the safety in the box like Tebow. So there is usually no help over the top on defense. Which is why the deep ball opens up.I think the biggest problem with Tebow is that the coaches tinkered too much with his throwing motion. Because of the safety crowding the line, I don't think that Tebow needs to have the fastest throwing motion. Or even a fast motion. He needs to see the defense and throw accurately when people are open. I think the coaches should stop listening to Steve Young, who has been trying to change his motion in a way so Tebow could fit into a west coast offense, and let Tebow just chuck the ball like a baseball the way he does. I am telling you accuracy of his throws was not a problem in high school or college. It was always the speed of his delivery. People need to see whether he can use his slow mechanics in the nfl. He has earned that. If he was accurate on his throws, there would be no debate. To the point of the post, I think he was brought to New York strictly as a publicity stunt to trump the Giants following the Super Bowl win. The owner of the Jets should be ashamed. At the least, he set back the career of Tebow, who appeared promising. In the end, Tebow won games and could still win games with 15 creative read-option plays in a run based offense. I think he is getting the shaft.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: :goodposting: :goodposting: This is really turning me off from the NFL and the media that covers it. Nobody can say that he was given a fair shot. Nobody. I see some of these average QBs get gigs time and time again with NO success, EVER. This guy, was a standout in college...has won everywhere he has played, and has always been a professional leader in life and the lockerroom. He gets a chance to shine in Denver and does. He gets kicked out. He goes to NY waiting for Sanchez to fail and come in a take over. He never gets his shot because the team is afraid that he will win. Don't tell me that this doesn't have to do with him being vocal about his belief either. That is the ONLY sane reason. I've watchted the NFL for 25 years and have never seen anything like this. This guy is a winner, plain and simple and is being black-balled by the NFL.
 
Yes and no. He wasn't given a fair shot, but I don't really believe anyone is owed a fair shot an plenty of people don't get one in the NFL.

 
I think you needed one more choice, who cares?Nobody on these boards, including Tebow supporters are in every practice, or meeting or anything else that involves Tebow. There is a reason he is not being given a shot, it's because he sucks as an NFL QB. Do you really honestly think ANY coach in the NFL (Since Al Davis is no longer involved) would keep his best chance to win on the bench? If you do, I gotta say, you are a fool. The NFL above all else is a business, and I do not care how much a coach likes a player, if another player can do that job better, and most times this is proven in practice, which we are not privy to, that player will get his chance if he has EARNED it. The argument that coaches let the media sway what they do is just silly, Jim E Mora said it best,"You don't know. You just don't know. You may think you know, but you don't know. And you never will". Which is probably the case with 99.9% of fans as well.

 
I say yes. He supposedly looks like utter crap in practice. A coach is supposed to give him a chance in actual games because...he's popular? He's been given a chance - reps in practice. That's all any player can ask for. If he looked good in practice he'd be able to parlay that into chances in regular games. He hasn't. He won some games in Denver. But it's obvious coaches don't think it can continue. It happens. Just because someone wins some games behind center doesn't mean they're a great qb.

 
'Dr. Awesome said:
I say yes. He supposedly looks like utter crap in practice.
Click to expand...
This is kinda where I am too. Maybe the "sucks in practice" thing has been misdirection - I dunno.He appears to me to be a severely limited conventional NFL QB, but there are much smarter folks than I judging him. The most prominent color in the NFL is "green" (as in money). You'd think someone besides Rex Ryan (whose judgement is questionable at best) would think they could do something with him. And now the Jax owner - where Tebow would make the biggest splash - says "no way". Maybe he's trying to bluff the Jets?

In any case, I think Tebow is a fine kid whose skill set may not work for the NFL.

 
'cheese said:
Yes and no. He wasn't given a fair shot, but I don't really believe anyone is owed a fair shot an plenty of people don't get one in the NFL.
Click to expand...
This is a great point. He's not owed anything just because he happens to be plastered all over America's Televisions every week. Plenty of quality players go unheralded, buried on practice squads and benches, and never get a fair shot.But the OP makes a great point aswell. A Tebow-tailored, run based offense deserves its shot in the NFL. Its criminal that we may never get a chance to see it. Looks like the Jags are moving on, but the Cards certainly have nothing to lose.
 
'zilladog said:
'cheese said:
Yes and no. He wasn't given a fair shot, but I don't really believe anyone is owed a fair shot an plenty of people don't get one in the NFL.
Click to expand...
This is a great point. He's not owed anything just because he happens to be plastered all over America's Televisions every week. Plenty of quality players go unheralded, buried on practice squads and benches, and never get a fair shot.But the OP makes a great point aswell. A Tebow-tailored, run based offense deserves its shot in the NFL. Its criminal that we may never get a chance to see it. Looks like the Jags are moving on, but the Cards certainly have nothing to lose.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but at this point I think it's also part Tebow's fault. The window was open with the Jags last year and he should have gone for it. If nothing else--going back to his market would have encouraged a chance to play. Now after spurning them for the big market Jets he doesn't have that choice--and it's too bad, given the excitement he brings back to the table.
 
Seems like a lot of people think there is a league-wide conspiracy against Tebow. Its as simple as this.....he is a QB that can not throw the ball. That does not work in the NFL.

 
'DesmondBishop said:
I think you needed one more choice, who cares?Nobody on these boards, including Tebow supporters are in every practice, or meeting or anything else that involves Tebow. There is a reason he is not being given a shot, it's because he sucks as an NFL QB. Do you really honestly think ANY coach in the NFL (Since Al Davis is no longer involved) would keep his best chance to win on the bench? If you do, I gotta say, you are a fool. The NFL above all else is a business, and I do not care how much a coach likes a player, if another player can do that job better, and most times this is proven in practice, which we are not privy to, that player will get his chance if he has EARNED it. The argument that coaches let the media sway what they do is just silly, Jim E Mora said it best,"You don't know. You just don't know. You may think you know, but you don't know. And you never will". Which is probably the case with 99.9% of fans as well.
Click to expand...
Mora's statement goes both ways. You claim no coach would keep his best chance to win on the bench. But the game is full of egomaniacs. You have to be an egomaniac to be a HC in the NFL. And egomaniacs tend to think whatever they do is right--no matter if it's right or not. You have no idea if Tebow has earned his shot or not.
 
I really hate the argument that 'If player X is so good he would have been drafted higher/drafted/a starter.'This assumes 2 things. 1. NFL coaches and talent evaluators are perfect or at least extremely accurate. 2. Players are static entities who 'are what they are.'So I don't think the fact the he was shipped out of Denver and not given a chance to start for NYJ = he's not a starting caliber QB. That gives far to much credit to the coaches and not enough credence to other factors. Having said all that, it doesn't matter. Unless a team revamps their offense around Tebow, he won't impress coaches in practice trying to run a pro style pocket offense. So he won't get playing time. Round peg, square hole. I believe Tebow can be a winning starting QB in the NFL. I believe he never will because no team will do what it takes to accommodate that.

 
'mr roboto said:
I really hate the argument that 'If player X is so good he would have been drafted higher/drafted/a starter.'This assumes 2 things. 1. NFL coaches and talent evaluators are perfect or at least extremely accurate. 2. Players are static entities who 'are what they are.'So I don't think the fact the he was shipped out of Denver and not given a chance to start for NYJ = he's not a starting caliber QB. That gives far to much credit to the coaches and not enough credence to other factors. Having said all that, it doesn't matter. Unless a team revamps their offense around Tebow, he won't impress coaches in practice trying to run a pro style pocket offense. So he won't get playing time. Round peg, square hole. I believe Tebow can be a winning starting QB in the NFL. I believe he never will because no team will do what it takes to accommodate that.
Click to expand...
If a team thought he could win on a regular basis they would change their offense to suit him. As someone said earlier winning trumps everything else in the NFL. Its not that he is not a good pocket passer, its that he is not a good passer. More bluntly he is a terrible passer and 32 teams do not believe they can win with him on a consistent basis.
 
'glumpy said:
'zilladog said:
'cheese said:
Yes and no. He wasn't given a fair shot, but I don't really believe anyone is owed a fair shot an plenty of people don't get one in the NFL.
Click to expand...
This is a great point. He's not owed anything just because he happens to be plastered all over America's Televisions every week. Plenty of quality players go unheralded, buried on practice squads and benches, and never get a fair shot.But the OP makes a great point aswell. A Tebow-tailored, run based offense deserves its shot in the NFL. Its criminal that we may never get a chance to see it. Looks like the Jags are moving on, but the Cards certainly have nothing to lose.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but at this point I think it's also part Tebow's fault. The window was open with the Jags last year and he should have gone for it. If nothing else--going back to his market would have encouraged a chance to play. Now after spurning them for the big market Jets he doesn't have that choice--and it's too bad, given the excitement he brings back to the table.
Click to expand...
He legitimately thought he had the clearest path to the starting job in NY. Can't blame him for making the choice he made. How was he supposed to know that the Jets were an criminally inept franchise incapable of tying it's own shoes, let alone deciding which QB gives them the best chance to win?
 
'ICON211 said:
'mr roboto said:
I really hate the argument that 'If player X is so good he would have been drafted higher/drafted/a starter.'This assumes 2 things. 1. NFL coaches and talent evaluators are perfect or at least extremely accurate. 2. Players are static entities who 'are what they are.'So I don't think the fact the he was shipped out of Denver and not given a chance to start for NYJ = he's not a starting caliber QB. That gives far to much credit to the coaches and not enough credence to other factors. Having said all that, it doesn't matter. Unless a team revamps their offense around Tebow, he won't impress coaches in practice trying to run a pro style pocket offense. So he won't get playing time. Round peg, square hole. I believe Tebow can be a winning starting QB in the NFL. I believe he never will because no team will do what it takes to accommodate that.
Click to expand...
If a team thought he could win on a regular basis they would change their offense to suit him. As someone said earlier winning trumps everything else in the NFL. Its not that he is not a good pocket passer, its that he is not a good passer. More bluntly he is a terrible passer and 32 teams do not believe they can win with him on a consistent basis.
Click to expand...
If a team thought Arian Foster could be a 1,000 back they would have drafted him. If a team thought Ryan Leaf was going to suck and flame out they wouldn't have drafted him. A team thinking is not the same as what would happen. He did win in Denver. Not just him, but none the less. That actually happened. Don't have to think about that.
 
'ICON211 said:
'mr roboto said:
I really hate the argument that 'If player X is so good he would have been drafted higher/drafted/a starter.'This assumes 2 things. 1. NFL coaches and talent evaluators are perfect or at least extremely accurate. 2. Players are static entities who 'are what they are.'So I don't think the fact the he was shipped out of Denver and not given a chance to start for NYJ = he's not a starting caliber QB. That gives far to much credit to the coaches and not enough credence to other factors. Having said all that, it doesn't matter. Unless a team revamps their offense around Tebow, he won't impress coaches in practice trying to run a pro style pocket offense. So he won't get playing time. Round peg, square hole. I believe Tebow can be a winning starting QB in the NFL. I believe he never will because no team will do what it takes to accommodate that.
Click to expand...
If a team thought he could win on a regular basis they would change their offense to suit him. As someone said earlier winning trumps everything else in the NFL. Its not that he is not a good pocket passer, its that he is not a good passer. More bluntly he is a terrible passer and 32 teams do not believe they can win with him on a consistent basis.
Click to expand...
Ridiculous. Teams send quality players packing all of the time because they don't fit the OCs system. And teams don't change their systems because they don't believe the new system would win, they don't change their systems because of the possibility that the new system might not win. Conservative group-think permeates the NFL.
 
'Christo said:
'ICON211 said:
'mr roboto said:
I really hate the argument that 'If player X is so good he would have been drafted higher/drafted/a starter.'This assumes 2 things. 1. NFL coaches and talent evaluators are perfect or at least extremely accurate. 2. Players are static entities who 'are what they are.'So I don't think the fact the he was shipped out of Denver and not given a chance to start for NYJ = he's not a starting caliber QB. That gives far to much credit to the coaches and not enough credence to other factors. Having said all that, it doesn't matter. Unless a team revamps their offense around Tebow, he won't impress coaches in practice trying to run a pro style pocket offense. So he won't get playing time. Round peg, square hole. I believe Tebow can be a winning starting QB in the NFL. I believe he never will because no team will do what it takes to accommodate that.
Click to expand...
If a team thought he could win on a regular basis they would change their offense to suit him. As someone said earlier winning trumps everything else in the NFL. Its not that he is not a good pocket passer, its that he is not a good passer. More bluntly he is a terrible passer and 32 teams do not believe they can win with him on a consistent basis.
Click to expand...
Ridiculous. Teams send quality players packing all of the time because they don't fit the OCs system. And teams don't change their systems because they don't believe the new system would win, they don't change their systems because of the possibility that the new system might not win. Conservative group-think permeates the NFL.
Click to expand...
Barring injury teams do not send really good QBs packing all the time.
 
I think a big reason Tebow won those games in Denver was in part because nobody had a playbook on this guy, coupled along with the unpredictable nature of broken down plays. Its very hard to defend what you know little about. But Tebow isn't much of a mystery anymore, and the whole" wildcat" crapola was figured out how to defend years ago. There's no place for it in the NFL anymore. His limitations are now very apparent, and say what you want about his advantage on read option, it's not enough on its own to keep on winning in this league. RG3 is an effective pocket passer. Tebow isn't, or at least not reliably. The guy throws a great ball about as often as a truly good QB throws bad ones. Blame it on his mechanics. Blame it on his coaching. Lay the blame wherever you'd like, either way the fact remains: this guy can't even show effectiveness and/or earn a staffs confidence in a practice situation where his own teammates have to let up on the gas a little so not to hurt him. Start him? Exactly why? The idea that Tebow is suddenly going to overcome his deficiencies as an NFL calibur QB in live action is just wishful thinking, as if the guy just needs to warm up or knock some rust off. That's just not the case with Tebow. Im sorry. Praise his legs all you want. You can't run a QB 20 times a game and expect him to stay healthy for 16 regular season games, much less deep into the even more physical nature of the playoffs. If Denver gave Tebow the shot from week 1 during his season there and ran him 20 times a game (plus all of the running he'd have to do on broken plays, ect.), he would have never lasted. Guaranteed.

 
'Christo said:
'ICON211 said:
'mr roboto said:
I really hate the argument that 'If player X is so good he would have been drafted higher/drafted/a starter.'This assumes 2 things. 1. NFL coaches and talent evaluators are perfect or at least extremely accurate. 2. Players are static entities who 'are what they are.'So I don't think the fact the he was shipped out of Denver and not given a chance to start for NYJ = he's not a starting caliber QB. That gives far to much credit to the coaches and not enough credence to other factors. Having said all that, it doesn't matter. Unless a team revamps their offense around Tebow, he won't impress coaches in practice trying to run a pro style pocket offense. So he won't get playing time. Round peg, square hole. I believe Tebow can be a winning starting QB in the NFL. I believe he never will because no team will do what it takes to accommodate that.
Click to expand...
If a team thought he could win on a regular basis they would change their offense to suit him. As someone said earlier winning trumps everything else in the NFL. Its not that he is not a good pocket passer, its that he is not a good passer. More bluntly he is a terrible passer and 32 teams do not believe they can win with him on a consistent basis.
Click to expand...
Ridiculous. Teams send quality players packing all of the time because they don't fit the OCs system. And teams don't change their systems because they don't believe the new system would win, they don't change their systems because of the possibility that the new system might not win. Conservative group-think permeates the NFL.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:But Rex Ryan didn't think Tebow is a starting QB, and Rex Ryan is clearly a fantastic decision maker.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
'ICON211 said:
'Christo said:
'ICON211 said:
'mr roboto said:
I really hate the argument that 'If player X is so good he would have been drafted higher/drafted/a starter.'This assumes 2 things. 1. NFL coaches and talent evaluators are perfect or at least extremely accurate. 2. Players are static entities who 'are what they are.'So I don't think the fact the he was shipped out of Denver and not given a chance to start for NYJ = he's not a starting caliber QB. That gives far to much credit to the coaches and not enough credence to other factors. Having said all that, it doesn't matter. Unless a team revamps their offense around Tebow, he won't impress coaches in practice trying to run a pro style pocket offense. So he won't get playing time. Round peg, square hole. I believe Tebow can be a winning starting QB in the NFL. I believe he never will because no team will do what it takes to accommodate that.
Click to expand...
If a team thought he could win on a regular basis they would change their offense to suit him. As someone said earlier winning trumps everything else in the NFL. Its not that he is not a good pocket passer, its that he is not a good passer. More bluntly he is a terrible passer and 32 teams do not believe they can win with him on a consistent basis.
Click to expand...
Ridiculous. Teams send quality players packing all of the time because they don't fit the OCs system. And teams don't change their systems because they don't believe the new system would win, they don't change their systems because of the possibility that the new system might not win. Conservative group-think permeates the NFL.
Click to expand...
Barring injury teams do not send really good QBs packing all the time.
Click to expand...
That can be attributed to the group-think I was talking about. The NFL isn't an innovative league. Most systems utilize QBs the same way. If you saw more variety in the systems employed by teams quality QBs would be moving depending on whether they were pure passers or not.
 
'mjr said:
I think a big reason Tebow won those games in Denver was in part because nobody had a playbook on this guy, coupled along with the unpredictable nature of broken down plays. Its very hard to defend what you know little about. But Tebow isn't much of a mystery anymore, and the whole" wildcat" crapola was figured out how to defend years ago. There's no place for it in the NFL anymore. His limitations are now very apparent, and say what you want about his advantage on read option, it's not enough on its own to keep on winning in this league.

RG3 is an effective pocket passer. Tebow isn't, or at least not reliably. The guy throws a great ball about as often as a truly good QB throws bad ones. Blame it on his mechanics. Blame it on his coaching. Lay the blame wherever you'd like, either way the fact remains: this guy can't even show effectiveness and/or earn a staffs confidence in a practice situation where his own teammates have to let up on the gas a little so not to hurt him. Start him? Exactly why? The idea that Tebow is suddenly going to overcome his deficiencies as an NFL calibur QB in live action is just wishful thinking, as if the guy just needs to warm up or knock some rust off. That's just not the case with Tebow. Im sorry.

Praise his legs all you want. You can't run a QB 20 times a game and expect him to stay healthy for 16 regular season games, much less deep into the even more physical nature of the playoffs. If Denver gave Tebow the shot from week 1 during his season there and ran him 20 times a game (plus all of the running he'd have to do on broken plays, ect.), he would have never lasted. Guaranteed.
Click to expand...
:lmao:
 
'Christo said:
'mjr said:
I think a big reason Tebow won those games in Denver was in part because nobody had a playbook on this guy, coupled along with the unpredictable nature of broken down plays. Its very hard to defend what you know little about. But Tebow isn't much of a mystery anymore, and the whole" wildcat" crapola was figured out how to defend years ago. There's no place for it in the NFL anymore. His limitations are now very apparent, and say what you want about his advantage on read option, it's not enough on its own to keep on winning in this league.

RG3 is an effective pocket passer. Tebow isn't, or at least not reliably. The guy throws a great ball about as often as a truly good QB throws bad ones. Blame it on his mechanics. Blame it on his coaching. Lay the blame wherever you'd like, either way the fact remains: this guy can't even show effectiveness and/or earn a staffs confidence in a practice situation where his own teammates have to let up on the gas a little so not to hurt him. Start him? Exactly why? The idea that Tebow is suddenly going to overcome his deficiencies as an NFL calibur QB in live action is just wishful thinking, as if the guy just needs to warm up or knock some rust off. That's just not the case with Tebow. Im sorry.

Praise his legs all you want. You can't run a QB 20 times a game and expect him to stay healthy for 16 regular season games, much less deep into the even more physical nature of the playoffs. If Denver gave Tebow the shot from week 1 during his season there and ran him 20 times a game (plus all of the running he'd have to do on broken plays, ect.), he would have never lasted. Guaranteed.
Click to expand...
:lmao:
Click to expand...
Not sure what's so funny, I agree with him.
 
'ICON211 said:
'mr roboto said:
I really hate the argument that 'If player X is so good he would have been drafted higher/drafted/a starter.'This assumes 2 things. 1. NFL coaches and talent evaluators are perfect or at least extremely accurate. 2. Players are static entities who 'are what they are.'So I don't think the fact the he was shipped out of Denver and not given a chance to start for NYJ = he's not a starting caliber QB. That gives far to much credit to the coaches and not enough credence to other factors. Having said all that, it doesn't matter. Unless a team revamps their offense around Tebow, he won't impress coaches in practice trying to run a pro style pocket offense. So he won't get playing time. Round peg, square hole. I believe Tebow can be a winning starting QB in the NFL. I believe he never will because no team will do what it takes to accommodate that.
Click to expand...
If a team thought he could win on a regular basis they would change their offense to suit him. As someone said earlier winning trumps everything else in the NFL. Its not that he is not a good pocket passer, its that he is not a good passer. More bluntly he is a terrible passer and 32 teams do not believe they can win with him on a consistent basis.
Click to expand...
I disagree like the previous poster said HC are ego driven and they think they can make it work or change a player until it cost them a job or it works. Im an Eagles fan and just this year there are 3 examples of Reid's ego costing him. First the last two years he ran the wide 9 even though the only player that was suited for it was Jason Babin. Once the wide 9 and Babin finally left the Dline looked much better. Second he ran an offense with Vick for two years where they not only kept Vick in the pocket they threw the ball 40 times a game. Last he signed Ash for a big deal and never benched him even though he played about as bad as a CB can play. I dont think Tebow got a fair shot but I honestly dont know why he hasnt after winning the division and a road playoff game.
 
'Christo said:
'ICON211 said:
'Christo said:
'ICON211 said:
'mr roboto said:
I really hate the argument that 'If player X is so good he would have been drafted higher/drafted/a starter.'This assumes 2 things. 1. NFL coaches and talent evaluators are perfect or at least extremely accurate. 2. Players are static entities who 'are what they are.'So I don't think the fact the he was shipped out of Denver and not given a chance to start for NYJ = he's not a starting caliber QB. That gives far to much credit to the coaches and not enough credence to other factors. Having said all that, it doesn't matter. Unless a team revamps their offense around Tebow, he won't impress coaches in practice trying to run a pro style pocket offense. So he won't get playing time. Round peg, square hole. I believe Tebow can be a winning starting QB in the NFL. I believe he never will because no team will do what it takes to accommodate that.
Click to expand...
If a team thought he could win on a regular basis they would change their offense to suit him. As someone said earlier winning trumps everything else in the NFL. Its not that he is not a good pocket passer, its that he is not a good passer. More bluntly he is a terrible passer and 32 teams do not believe they can win with him on a consistent basis.
Click to expand...
Ridiculous. Teams send quality players packing all of the time because they don't fit the OCs system. And teams don't change their systems because they don't believe the new system would win, they don't change their systems because of the possibility that the new system might not win. Conservative group-think permeates the NFL.
Click to expand...
Barring injury teams do not send really good QBs packing all the time.
Click to expand...
That can be attributed to the group-think I was talking about. The NFL isn't an innovative league. Most systems utilize QBs the same way. If you saw more variety in the systems employed by teams quality QBs would be moving depending on whether they were pure passers or not.
Click to expand...
I agree that its a copycat league and teams are now having success with mobile QBs. The difference is the mobile QBs they are employing can also throw. Guys like Cam, RG3 and Wilson can all throw the ball much better than Tebow. He just is not an effective passer.
 
'Christo said:
'DesmondBishop said:
I think you needed one more choice, who cares?Nobody on these boards, including Tebow supporters are in every practice, or meeting or anything else that involves Tebow. There is a reason he is not being given a shot, it's because he sucks as an NFL QB. Do you really honestly think ANY coach in the NFL (Since Al Davis is no longer involved) would keep his best chance to win on the bench? If you do, I gotta say, you are a fool. The NFL above all else is a business, and I do not care how much a coach likes a player, if another player can do that job better, and most times this is proven in practice, which we are not privy to, that player will get his chance if he has EARNED it. The argument that coaches let the media sway what they do is just silly, Jim E Mora said it best,"You don't know. You just don't know. You may think you know, but you don't know. And you never will". Which is probably the case with 99.9% of fans as well.
Click to expand...
Mora's statement goes both ways. You claim no coach would keep his best chance to win on the bench. But the game is full of egomaniacs. You have to be an egomaniac to be a HC in the NFL. And egomaniacs tend to think whatever they do is right--no matter if it's right or not. You have no idea if Tebow has earned his shot or not.
Click to expand...
I absolutely do, 1 simple question to you, is Tebow a starting QB in the NFL? No, is the only response acceptable since he did not start a single game this year. He clearly has not EARNED a shot, at least for the Jets he didn't, which should tell you just how crazy bad he is, he couldn't beat out Sanchez in practice, to me that speaks volume about how bad he is.
 
'Eminence said:
Instead of saying, "he wins". Explain what he does well to contribute to the team.
Click to expand...
Winning. No seriously, on top of the intangibles with leadership, motivation, and rallying guys around him, he forces defenses to stack the box and play the run/ run option. Which leaves guys wide open or one on one downfield. That's why he doesn't necessarily have to be accurate. He just has to be opportunistic and take advantage of big plays when they present themselves. That's the tebow offense in a nutshell I think. Which, by the way, isn't a whole lot different from the Vince Young offense, or the Mike Vick offense, or the RG3 offense, or the Colin Kaepernick offense.
 
'zilladog said:
'Eminence said:
Instead of saying, "he wins". Explain what he does well to contribute to the team.
Click to expand...
Winning. No seriously, on top of the intangibles with leadership, motivation, and rallying guys around him, he forces defenses to stack the box and play the run/ run option. Which leaves guys wide open or one on one downfield. That's why he doesn't necessarily have to be accurate. He just has to be opportunistic and take advantage of big plays when they present themselves. That's the tebow offense in a nutshell I think. Which, by the way, isn't a whole lot different from the Vince Young offense, or the Mike Vick offense, or the RG3 offense, or the Colin Kaepernick offense.
Click to expand...
In the NFL your starting QB has to be an accurate passer.
 
'proninja said:
'zilladog said:
'Eminence said:
Instead of saying, "he wins". Explain what he does well to contribute to the team.
Click to expand...
Winning. No seriously, on top of the intangibles with leadership, motivation, and rallying guys around him, he forces defenses to stack the box and play the run/ run option. Which leaves guys wide open or one on one downfield. That's why he doesn't necessarily have to be accurate. He just has to be opportunistic and take advantage of big plays when they present themselves. That's the tebow offense in a nutshell I think. Which, by the way, isn't a whole lot different from the Vince Young offense, or the Mike Vick offense, or the RG3 offense, or the Colin Kaepernick offense.
Click to expand...
In the NFL your starting QB has to be an accurate passer.
Click to expand...
Well there you have it. This is why he can't get a starting gig. He has shown his ability to win while being well below average in accuracy, simply because he ran well and took advantage of big play opportunities downfileld when the defense sold out to play the run. It can and has won in the past. But trying to convince NFL coaches and front offices to buy into that strategy being sustainable while not having an accurate passing game is a different story.
 
'DesmondBishop said:
'Christo said:
'DesmondBishop said:
I think you needed one more choice, who cares?

Nobody on these boards, including Tebow supporters are in every practice, or meeting or anything else that involves Tebow. There is a reason he is not being given a shot, it's because he sucks as an NFL QB. Do you really honestly think ANY coach in the NFL (Since Al Davis is no longer involved) would keep his best chance to win on the bench? If you do, I gotta say, you are a fool. The NFL above all else is a business, and I do not care how much a coach likes a player, if another player can do that job better, and most times this is proven in practice, which we are not privy to, that player will get his chance if he has EARNED it.

The argument that coaches let the media sway what they do is just silly, Jim E Mora said it best,"You don't know. You just don't know. You may think you know, but you don't know. And you never will". Which is probably the case with 99.9% of fans as well.
Click to expand...
Mora's statement goes both ways. You claim no coach would keep his best chance to win on the bench. But the game is full of egomaniacs. You have to be an egomaniac to be a HC in the NFL. And egomaniacs tend to think whatever they do is right--no matter if it's right or not. You have no idea if Tebow has earned his shot or not.
Click to expand...
I absolutely do, 1 simple question to you, is Tebow a starting QB in the NFL? No, is the only response acceptable since he did not start a single game this year. He clearly has not EARNED a shot, at least for the Jets he didn't, which should tell you just how crazy bad he is, he couldn't beat out Sanchez in practice, to me that speaks volume about how bad he is.
Click to expand...
That answer is specious. He didn't start because Ryan/Tanny were afraid that if he won a game or two they would find themselves in Elway/Fox territory of having to bench a fan favorite, a subsequent QB controversy and a media circus.And he was just as bad in practice in Denver as he was with the Jets - he is a notoriously bad practice player, so to point to that as some sort of proof is irrelevant IMO.

 
'zilladog said:
'proninja said:
'zilladog said:
'Eminence said:
Instead of saying, "he wins". Explain what he does well to contribute to the team.
Click to expand...
Winning. No seriously, on top of the intangibles with leadership, motivation, and rallying guys around him, he forces defenses to stack the box and play the run/ run option. Which leaves guys wide open or one on one downfield. That's why he doesn't necessarily have to be accurate. He just has to be opportunistic and take advantage of big plays when they present themselves. That's the tebow offense in a nutshell I think. Which, by the way, isn't a whole lot different from the Vince Young offense, or the Mike Vick offense, or the RG3 offense, or the Colin Kaepernick offense.
Click to expand...
In the NFL your starting QB has to be an accurate passer.
Click to expand...
Well there you have it. This is why he can't get a starting gig. He has shown his ability to win while being well below average in accuracy, simply because he ran well and took advantage of big play opportunities downfileld when the defense sold out to play the run. It can and has won in the past. But trying to convince NFL coaches and front offices to buy into that strategy being sustainable while not having an accurate passing game is a different story.
Click to expand...
So, where do you go to church?
 
'zilladog said:
'Eminence said:
Instead of saying, "he wins". Explain what he does well to contribute to the team.
Click to expand...
Winning. No seriously, on top of the intangibles with leadership, motivation, and rallying guys around him, he forces defenses to stack the box and play the run/ run option. Which leaves guys wide open or one on one downfield. That's why he doesn't necessarily have to be accurate. He just has to be opportunistic and take advantage of big plays when they present themselves. That's the tebow offense in a nutshell I think. Which, by the way, isn't a whole lot different from the Vince Young offense, or the Mike Vick offense, or the RG3 offense, or the Colin Kaepernick offense.
Click to expand...
We're playing from behind, now what?
 
'proninja said:
'zilladog said:
'proninja said:
'zilladog said:
'Eminence said:
Instead of saying, "he wins". Explain what he does well to contribute to the team.
Click to expand...
Winning. No seriously, on top of the intangibles with leadership, motivation, and rallying guys around him, he forces defenses to stack the box and play the run/ run option. Which leaves guys wide open or one on one downfield. That's why he doesn't necessarily have to be accurate. He just has to be opportunistic and take advantage of big plays when they present themselves. That's the tebow offense in a nutshell I think. Which, by the way, isn't a whole lot different from the Vince Young offense, or the Mike Vick offense, or the RG3 offense, or the Colin Kaepernick offense.
Click to expand...
In the NFL your starting QB has to be an accurate passer.
Click to expand...
Well there you have it. This is why he can't get a starting gig. He has shown his ability to win while being well below average in accuracy, simply because he ran well and took advantage of big play opportunities downfileld when the defense sold out to play the run. It can and has won in the past. But trying to convince NFL coaches and front offices to buy into that strategy being sustainable while not having an accurate passing game is a different story.
Click to expand...
So, where do you go to church?
Click to expand...
I'm a staunch atheist. Why does that matter?
 
'Eminence said:
'zilladog said:
'Eminence said:
Instead of saying, "he wins". Explain what he does well to contribute to the team.
Click to expand...
Winning. No seriously, on top of the intangibles with leadership, motivation, and rallying guys around him, he forces defenses to stack the box and play the run/ run option. Which leaves guys wide open or one on one downfield. That's why he doesn't necessarily have to be accurate. He just has to be opportunistic and take advantage of big plays when they present themselves. That's the tebow offense in a nutshell I think. Which, by the way, isn't a whole lot different from the Vince Young offense, or the Mike Vick offense, or the RG3 offense, or the Colin Kaepernick offense.
Click to expand...
We're playing from behind, now what?
Click to expand...
There's almost a whole season of games in 2011 that will answer that question for ya.
 
'Eminence said:
'JohnnyU said:
'Eminence said:
http://arizonasports.com/?sid=1479741&nid=132
Click to expand...
I'm not sure John Skelton is much of a barometer.
Click to expand...
Showing that winning means nothing. Even Kyle Orton had a decent record as starter for awhile.Does not make any of the three 'good' quarterbacks.
Click to expand...
I agree, and I was actually thinking of Skelton reading this thread.Last year, Skelton was 5-2 as a starter, and before that, the Cards had lost six straight.But no one in Arizona was touting him as the next great thing because we all saw that he pretty much sucked and the Cards got really lucky to win a lot of those games. Yet when pretty much the same thing happens to Tebow, people call him a "winner" and wonder why he's not playing. He's not playing because he sucks.
 
'kutta said:
I agree, and I was actually thinking of Skelton reading this thread.Last year, Skelton was 5-2 as a starter, and before that, the Cards had lost six straight.But no one in Arizona was touting him as the next great thing because we all saw that he pretty much sucked and the Cards got really lucky to win a lot of those games. Yet when pretty much the same thing happens to Tebow, people call him a "winner" and wonder why he's not playing. He's not playing because he sucks.
Click to expand...
:goodposting:
 
'kutta said:
'Eminence said:
'JohnnyU said:
'Eminence said:
http://arizonasports.com/?sid=1479741&nid=132
Click to expand...
I'm not sure John Skelton is much of a barometer.
Click to expand...
Showing that winning means nothing. Even Kyle Orton had a decent record as starter for awhile.Does not make any of the three 'good' quarterbacks.
Click to expand...
I agree, and I was actually thinking of Skelton reading this thread.Last year, Skelton was 5-2 as a starter, and before that, the Cards had lost six straight.But no one in Arizona was touting him as the next great thing because we all saw that he pretty much sucked and the Cards got really lucky to win a lot of those games. Yet when pretty much the same thing happens to Tebow, people call him a "winner" and wonder why he's not playing. He's not playing because he sucks.
Click to expand...
:goodposting: Besides not passing the eye test just look at his game logs. And for all the people talking about what a great winner he is that wills his team to victory, lets not forget that the Broncos backed into the playoffs losing their last 3 games with him playing horribly.
 
Tebow does need to be more accurate and the idea of not practicing well but then playing well on Sundays seems silly to me. Denver's defense kept them in low scoring games that Tebow could them win. If the defense was giving up 30 points a game, I don't think TT would have a very good record.All that being said, I don't think that basing how good he is on the decisions the Broncos and Jets made is really fair either. Of course Elway wasn't going to want Tebow. I don't think Elway would want Cam Newton or RGIII either because they don't fit his perception of what it takes to be a winning NFL QB. He wants someone that plays like him (ironic since Tebow's numbers over his first 16 games are arguably better than Elway's first 16 games). But Elway got the chance to get Peyton Manning. Of COURSE he's going to take Manning over Tebow. That was obviously happening from the first time Tebow did something amazing to win a game at the end and the cameras flashed to Elway and the look of disgust on his face.And giving Rex and the Jets any type of credit for being able to make the right decision is laughable. It's pretty clear that Ryan is in WAY over his head and has chosen to ride Sanchez to the death of his career. Throw in the tattoo thing and it's clear that something weird beyond just football is going on there. The Jets had a good defense last year even with Revis being out and all sorts of other injuries. But Sanchez was a turnover machine. Each week he found new ways to turn the ball over. Say what you will about Tebow, but he doesn't turn the ball over. That's one reason why he was a great fit with Denver last year and why they could win close low scoring games. I don't care how bad you practice, that item alone should have earned Tebow some starts eventually. Only an incompetent buffoon with a giant ego and some weird twisted fetish would keep trotting out the guy that keeps turning the ball over and directly leading to losses when he has a guy proven to be a defense's friend.

 
'GroveDiesel said:
Tebow does need to be more accurate and the idea of not practicing well but then playing well on Sundays seems silly to me. Denver's defense kept them in low scoring games that Tebow could them win. If the defense was giving up 30 points a game, I don't think TT would have a very good record.All that being said, I don't think that basing how good he is on the decisions the Broncos and Jets made is really fair either. Of course Elway wasn't going to want Tebow. I don't think Elway would want Cam Newton or RGIII either because they don't fit his perception of what it takes to be a winning NFL QB. He wants someone that plays like him (ironic since Tebow's numbers over his first 16 games are arguably better than Elway's first 16 games). But Elway got the chance to get Peyton Manning. Of COURSE he's going to take Manning over Tebow. That was obviously happening from the first time Tebow did something amazing to win a game at the end and the cameras flashed to Elway and the look of disgust on his face.And giving Rex and the Jets any type of credit for being able to make the right decision is laughable. It's pretty clear that Ryan is in WAY over his head and has chosen to ride Sanchez to the death of his career. Throw in the tattoo thing and it's clear that something weird beyond just football is going on there. The Jets had a good defense last year even with Revis being out and all sorts of other injuries. But Sanchez was a turnover machine. Each week he found new ways to turn the ball over. Say what you will about Tebow, but he doesn't turn the ball over. That's one reason why he was a great fit with Denver last year and why they could win close low scoring games. I don't care how bad you practice, that item alone should have earned Tebow some starts eventually. Only an incompetent buffoon with a giant ego and some weird twisted fetish would keep trotting out the guy that keeps turning the ball over and directly leading to losses when he has a guy proven to be a defense's friend.
Click to expand...
I agree that there are some coaching staffs and organizations that are just incompetent, but all of them? Jacksonville has Henne and Gabbert and tebow would solve part of their ticket problem and they want nothing to do with him. There does not seem to be even one team that thinks he can be an effective starting QB.
 
'JohnnyU said:
'Christo said:
'mjr said:
I think a big reason Tebow won those games in Denver was in part because nobody had a playbook on this guy, coupled along with the unpredictable nature of broken down plays. Its very hard to defend what you know little about. But Tebow isn't much of a mystery anymore, and the whole" wildcat" crapola was figured out how to defend years ago. There's no place for it in the NFL anymore. His limitations are now very apparent, and say what you want about his advantage on read option, it's not enough on its own to keep on winning in this league.

RG3 is an effective pocket passer. Tebow isn't, or at least not reliably. The guy throws a great ball about as often as a truly good QB throws bad ones. Blame it on his mechanics. Blame it on his coaching. Lay the blame wherever you'd like, either way the fact remains: this guy can't even show effectiveness and/or earn a staffs confidence in a practice situation where his own teammates have to let up on the gas a little so not to hurt him. Start him? Exactly why? The idea that Tebow is suddenly going to overcome his deficiencies as an NFL calibur QB in live action is just wishful thinking, as if the guy just needs to warm up or knock some rust off. That's just not the case with Tebow. Im sorry.

Praise his legs all you want. You can't run a QB 20 times a game and expect him to stay healthy for 16 regular season games, much less deep into the even more physical nature of the playoffs. If Denver gave Tebow the shot from week 1 during his season there and ran him 20 times a game (plus all of the running he'd have to do on broken plays, ect.), he would have never lasted. Guaranteed.
Click to expand...
:lmao:
Click to expand...
Not sure what's so funny, I agree with him.
Click to expand...
But do you guaranty it?
 
'DesmondBishop said:
'Christo said:
'DesmondBishop said:
I think you needed one more choice, who cares?Nobody on these boards, including Tebow supporters are in every practice, or meeting or anything else that involves Tebow. There is a reason he is not being given a shot, it's because he sucks as an NFL QB. Do you really honestly think ANY coach in the NFL (Since Al Davis is no longer involved) would keep his best chance to win on the bench? If you do, I gotta say, you are a fool. The NFL above all else is a business, and I do not care how much a coach likes a player, if another player can do that job better, and most times this is proven in practice, which we are not privy to, that player will get his chance if he has EARNED it. The argument that coaches let the media sway what they do is just silly, Jim E Mora said it best,"You don't know. You just don't know. You may think you know, but you don't know. And you never will". Which is probably the case with 99.9% of fans as well.
Click to expand...
Mora's statement goes both ways. You claim no coach would keep his best chance to win on the bench. But the game is full of egomaniacs. You have to be an egomaniac to be a HC in the NFL. And egomaniacs tend to think whatever they do is right--no matter if it's right or not. You have no idea if Tebow has earned his shot or not.
Click to expand...
I absolutely do, 1 simple question to you, is Tebow a starting QB in the NFL? No, is the only response acceptable since he did not start a single game this year. He clearly has not EARNED a shot, at least for the Jets he didn't, which should tell you just how crazy bad he is, he couldn't beat out Sanchez in practice, to me that speaks volume about how bad he is.
Click to expand...
That's faulty logic.
 
'Eminence said:
'zilladog said:
'Eminence said:
Instead of saying, "he wins". Explain what he does well to contribute to the team.
Click to expand...
Winning. No seriously, on top of the intangibles with leadership, motivation, and rallying guys around him, he forces defenses to stack the box and play the run/ run option. Which leaves guys wide open or one on one downfield. That's why he doesn't necessarily have to be accurate. He just has to be opportunistic and take advantage of big plays when they present themselves. That's the tebow offense in a nutshell I think. Which, by the way, isn't a whole lot different from the Vince Young offense, or the Mike Vick offense, or the RG3 offense, or the Colin Kaepernick offense.
Click to expand...
We're playing from behind, now what?
Click to expand...
Pray that the defense can hold the opponent scoreless the rest of the game and that our offense can score one TD?
 
'sbonomo said:
You people are fanatics....he is not an nfl qb...get over it.....
Click to expand...
Why would someone go into a thread about Tim Tebow and then complain that everyone was talking about Tim Tebow? There's other threads about other players if Tebow doesn't suit your fancy.
 
'zilladog said:
'glumpy said:
'zilladog said:
'cheese said:
Yes and no. He wasn't given a fair shot, but I don't really believe anyone is owed a fair shot an plenty of people don't get one in the NFL.
Click to expand...
This is a great point. He's not owed anything just because he happens to be plastered all over America's Televisions every week. Plenty of quality players go unheralded, buried on practice squads and benches, and never get a fair shot.But the OP makes a great point aswell. A Tebow-tailored, run based offense deserves its shot in the NFL. Its criminal that we may never get a chance to see it. Looks like the Jags are moving on, but the Cards certainly have nothing to lose.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but at this point I think it's also part Tebow's fault. The window was open with the Jags last year and he should have gone for it. If nothing else--going back to his market would have encouraged a chance to play. Now after spurning them for the big market Jets he doesn't have that choice--and it's too bad, given the excitement he brings back to the table.
Click to expand...
He legitimately thought he had the clearest path to the starting job in NY. Can't blame him for making the choice he made. How was he supposed to know that the Jets were an criminally inept franchise incapable of tying it's own shoes, let alone deciding which QB gives them the best chance to win?
Click to expand...
While he may have thought it was his clearest path, he also should have seen the troll under the bridge (Sparano) and taken a different path. Sparano is worse at developing QBs (just look at Tebow, the regression of Sanchez, and the trail of destruction he left in Miami) than Tebow is at playing the position. No way he was going to get any of the developmental help that he needed on that team.His best choice - maybe only choice - may be to latch on to a CFL team where the field is longer and wider so that more of his passes land in bounds. Someone on ESPN yesterday suggested SF as a possible landing place, given that Harbaugh is better at developing QBs than his previous coaches. I dunno, I'd almost tell him to practice his pass catching skills going over the middle as some sort of H-back/tight end hybrid as an outlet receiver where speed isn't necessary. But there's limited call for that type of player as well.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Gatorman
Why does the NFL have QBs that cannot play QB?
2
Replies
73
Views
2K
renesauz
renesauz
T
Travdogg's 3 round mock draft
2
Replies
74
Views
2K
jtd13
jtd13
JohnnyU
Marcus Rosemy-Jacksaint WR GA - Sleeper?
Replies
2
Views
154
Boston
Boston

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Top