So the Patriots won 3 super bowls with a great defense and run game. Brady proved to be an exceptional game manager that orchestrated some big drives to help. Since then, Belichick has made him the focal point of the entire team, installing a pass first game plan and surrounding him with relevant talent. The results have been spectacular, mvp worthy and record breaking during the regular season. But Brady has performed poorly in the playoffs causing his teams have fallen very short of expectations. Does anyone else see the similarities to Manning?
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Has Brady become Manning? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter cvnpoka
- Start date
Norcalhoya
Footballguy
No
Stinger Ray
Footballguy
Why do we need more hater threads?
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Pats were 9 point favorites. For all the Patriot fans getting on Manning about "choking", THIS is what a real choke job looks like fellas.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Fixed.
MAC_32
Footballguy
You are all wrong.
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azgroover
Footballguy
...and Adam Vinatieri bailing everyone out.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
It shouldn't be overlooked that Bellichick's record in the playoffs without Weis and Crennell is pretty underwhelming. He was handed a team that Parcells put together and was in the Super Bowl a few years previous. Once those Parcells players were gone, Belly wasn't able to keep up the success.
MAC_32
Footballguy
Define, reaching.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Does that mean that Troy Aikman > Steve Young?
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Feel free to counter with some actual facts.
donkshow
Footballguy
Denial
MAC_32
Footballguy
You are scratching and clawing for a solution you cannot defend. Good luck. Good game, good team,
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Countering with facts update?
MAC_32
Footballguy
No.
lets review2006 plays well vs the Jetsplays very poorly vs the Chargers and benefits from a very lucky fumbled interception. 27/51 for 280/2/3Pats blow a 21-6 lead to the Colts. Brady has a chance but throws a pick on the final drive. 21/34 for 232/1/1. 2007, the record breaking yearBrady plays amazing vs the Jags.Putrid performance vs the Chargers going 22/33 for 209/2/3and ofc the Super Bowl loss to the Giants as 12.5 pt favorites.20093.5pt faves vs the Ravens and Brady puts up a putrid 154/2/3 game.20109pt faves vs the Jets and Brady again underperforms in the loss and is outplayed by Sanchez.20113pt faves in the Super Bowl and Brady puts up an uninspired 276/2/1 including failing to take advantage of a clutch drive to seal it marked by missing a wide open Welker.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
It'd be interesting to see how many games Brady has lost as a heavy favorite vs Manning in that same scenario. I don't recall Manning blowing any games as a 9 point favorite, especially not twice.9 point favorites at home no less. Ooof.
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ouch
Brady hasn't become Manning, he's always been on the same level as Manning. Unless if you don't have the ability to understand that 1) winning and losing is a team accomplishment, not an individual one; and 2) disparities due to randomness are easy to build up when people attempt to make major assumptions based on small sample sizes.
SSOG
Moderator
Just going to quote myself so I don't have to fight stupid on two fronts.
Peyton, Brady, and Eli are the 9th, 10th, and 11th highest rated passers in postseason history- pretty much identical QB ratings. There's no real difference between any of their play.
Stinger Ray
Footballguy
SSOG
Moderator
Really? He was all-world in the postseason last year, but prior to that, he'd passed for under 200 yards in 5 of 7 playoff games, had never topped 300, and had 8 TDs vs. 7 INTs. His regular season play this year made last year look more and more like an aberration.
SSOG
Moderator
9.5, fell to 7.5 at kickoff. Both teams were favored by pretty much identical amounts over Baltimore. Of course, Manning's team led Baltimore by 7 with 40 seconds to play and lost by a FG in double overtime, while New England was never within a single score through the whole fourth quarter.
And peyton would have won expect for Rahim Moore and horrific officiating that gave the Ravens 10+ points.
SSOG
Moderator
On that note, give Rodgers and Brees 20 playoff games and see how different their résumé looks, too. And give Eli another 10 playoff games and see if he still looks as impressive as Brady/Manning. Who you are in the regular season is who you are in the postseason, minus a little because the quality of competition is higher. Any time it looks like someone is the exception, odds are that's just sample size screwing with your brain. Choker and clutch, at the NFL level, are myths. Optical illusions. Freak statistical occurrences with little to no predictive value. As statisticians are fond of joking... splits happen.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
pretty much cant get it done since they had to put the camera's away'cvnpoka said:
johnnyboy8102
Footballguy
The 2 special teams TDs for the Broncos evened that out.
ScottNorwood
Footballcutie
I am enjoying this thread
Tanner9919
Footballguy
no.they won3 SBs with a VERY good kicker...and haven't won since. Brady did nothing his first SB..he wan't all-world..they lost a SB following a 16-0 season..they also lost last year...they lost the Championship game today, with an offense that was first all-time in first downs ( 444) and third ALL-TIME in pts at 557 and first in the NFL in turnovers (+25)'IvanKaramazov said:
not sure if that equates to choking in your book, but in mine, it surely does..
it's easy to be 'great' when you play Miami, NYJ, Buff 6X/yr..
havhas anyone ever viewed the NE SB winning teams as all-time great teams? I haven't..could any of them beat the 1986 Giants? nope.1990 Giants ? no..2000 Ravens? nope.any of the Cowboys/Niners/Redskins teams of the 80-90s? heck no. Raiders of the 80s? nope..85 Bears? nope.Elways repeating SB chmpion Broncos teams of the 90's? nope..SF of the 80s/90's?nope.
some/all of these were all-time great teams..
I've never viewed NE SB winning teams as 'great'..good,yes,but nothing great...
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bucksoh
Footballguy
Jewell
Footballguy
Bart Starr is an exception. 10 game post season sample size. 9-1 record.Regular season career QB rating of 80.5. Post season career QB rating 104.8. Regular season TD-INT ratio: a little over 1:1. Post season career TD-INT ratio: 5:1.
SSOG
Moderator
Sample sizes. How many QBs have there been in history, 500? 1000? With that many data points, it's a virtual certainty that one of them will put up values that anomalous over a 10 game sample. You can say "what are the odds Bart Starr would outperform by that much purely based on chance?", and the odds would be extremely low. If you ask "what are the odds SOMEONE would outperform by that much purely based on chance?", the odds would be substantially higher. That someone just happened to be Bart Starr. I've yet to see anything to convince me that anyone has any sort of magical "choke" or "clutch" skill, even guys like Montana or Schottenheimer. Montana was a phenomenal QB. The odds of him performing phenomenally over a 20 game sample are actually pretty decent. Schottenheimer has a putrid playoff record, but if you give 1000 guys some coins and tell them to flip them, someone's going to get 5 heads and 13 tails, it's just a question of who. I don't think either of these guys possessed/lacked any special ability. I think if you gave Schotty another 18 playoff games, he'd probably go .500 in them. I think if you gave Montana another 20 playoff games, he'd probably perform close to, but below, his regular season average.Jim Plunkett, over an identical sample size to Starr (10 games), put together an 8-2 record and saw his QB rating jump by 14 points over his regular season average. JIM PLUNKETT!!! Like I said, with as many players as have played QB over the years, it's a near-statistical-certainty that a couple of them are going to have eye-popping postseason performances owing strictly to random chance rather than inherent "clutch" ability. Unless you think that Jim Plunkett has more magical clutchness than Joe Montana, Steve Young, John Elway, Dan Marino, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Johnny Unitas, or any others of the all-time greats.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Guess not.'SacramentoBob said:
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
This was my exact argument, yes.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
x2. It's a team game and there is a lot of luck involved.'Popinski said:
MAC_32
Footballguy
Then who doesn't suck?
Gawain
Footballguy
Joe Montana is 56. If you gave him another 20 playoff games he'd probably have more broken hips than TDs.
moleculo
Footballguy
actually, Montana's playoff metrics are pretty close to his regular season metrics. There is a very slight uptick, but not what I would consider significant.
Code:
season playoffrating 92.3 95.6y/a 7.5 7.86ay/a 7.4 7.8I blame Brady for alot of what happened, and didn't happen, on offense yesterday. His head didn't seem to be in the game as it usually is.Losing Talib on defense made Flacco look like he is a better QB than he really is. Look at the stats before Talib left versus after he came out.Nonetheless, after Baltimore got up by 15, Brady seemingly choked his way to the loss. Let's face it, Baltimore's defense blows and is smoke and mirrors at this point. They will be exposed against SF and make Brady's poor performance all the more difficult to accept if you are a NE fan.
