***Official Buffalo Bills Thread 2019 Version***

[Steve Tasker 6,477]

I know other teams deal with injuries too, but it seems like Buffalo has half it's team either out or playing hurt every year. I don't see why this keeps happening year after year. You can't even blame it on strength/conditioning or practice regimine since this happens regardless of who the coaching staff is.

I don't follow any other teams closely, but do the Bills really have the injury bug worse than other teams do? I mean, it seems like they do from my standpoint, but I don't really know for sure.

Regardless, it's the consistent lack of depth that kills the Bills, IMO. The starters, for the most part, are fine. But most teams don't have guys like UDFA Jeff Tuel, Colin Brown, Justin Rogers getting significant playing time. They have legitimate NFL backups.

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

It doesn't forgive his awful performance, but Tuel went in in about the most difficult circumstances possible. Undrafted free agent, 5th game of the season, short week where he probably got zero reps, down a TD, missing his #1 WR, Colin Brown at LG, Spiller and Jackson dinged.

Just an all around awful situation.

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

I know other teams deal with injuries too, but it seems like Buffalo has half it's team either out or playing hurt every year. I don't see why this keeps happening year after year. You can't even blame it on strength/conditioning or practice regimine since this happens regardless of who the coaching staff is.

I don't follow any other teams closely, but do the Bills really have the injury bug worse than other teams do? I mean, it seems like they do from my standpoint, but I don't really know for sure.

Regardless, it's the consistent lack of depth that kills the Bills, IMO. The starters, for the most part, are fine. But most teams don't have guys like UDFA Jeff Tuel, Colin Brown, Justin Rogers getting significant playing time. They have legitimate NFL backups.

Certainly. And that comes from a decade of atrocious drafts and bad free agent decisions. I do think the last two drafts and two seasons of signings have been pretty good, but it takes time to build depth.

[Aaron Rudnicki 8,650]

where are people getting this Goodwin WR2 projection as early as 2014 from? You think the Bills are going to cut Stevie 2 years into his 5-year deal or are we projecting an injury to a starter?

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

where are people getting this Goodwin WR2 projection as early as 2014 from? You think the Bills are going to cut Stevie 2 years into his 5-year deal or are we projecting an injury to a starter?

A fantasy #2.

But yeah, I do also think he could become better than Stevie. Stevie can do some unique things, but all his mental miscues are so damaging. Goodwin has more elite measurables and seems to have a better head on his shoulders. I'm not saying it's probable or even necessarily likely, but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility either.

[Aaron Rudnicki 8,650]

Stevie beat Haden for that play that drew PI in the end zone. He routinely beat Revis. He's not an elite #1 WR but he's very good. Goodwin would have to be really really good to beat him out.

[Resident A 15]

You guys are insane projecting Goodwin to be WR2.

He's a nice weapon and can make a lot of things happen in the open field. I see him being a similar weapon to Dante Hall when he played WR for the Chiefs. Dangerous, but barely roster-worthy in FF leagues. He'll never be more than the Bills' WR3, and won't get the volume to put up heavy stats. I see him as a 40-50 catch ceiling guy.

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

Shawn Powell released. He has been awful. Releasing Moorman was a huge mistake.

[Steve Tasker 6,477]

I don't really see Goodwin as the Bills #2 WR in the near future, and frankly, I think a lot of people have been very quick to unfairly writeoff TJ Graham. Goodwin has been a fine player from what I've seen, but I really haven't seen much to make me think he's better than Graham. From what I've heard and read, Graham has gotten open pretty consistently this season, but EJ just hasn't been throwing him the ball. He's not the primary read on most plays, and there's talk of the Bills shading portions of the field to where Manuel isn't even looking at the side of the field Graham is on a lot of pass plays.

Woods looks good....very good. Possible NFL superstar good. And Stevie is Stevie...a solid yet unspectacular player who gets it done. At best, a healthy Goodwin is #3 next year in an offense with a young, still-raw QB and running backs they'll lean on. Best case, he gets a few deep looks, maybe has a big game every now and then. But he'll be far too inconsistent to be much of a fantasy option, I think, unless the Bills offense takes a major step forward in a short period of time. My two cents...

[Aaron Rudnicki 8,650]

Shawn Powell released. He has been awful. Releasing Moorman was a huge mistake.

Is Moorman available? I think the Bears just worked him out recently.

[IvanKaramazov 15,512]

Shawn Powell released. He has been awful. Releasing Moorman was a huge mistake.

Is Moorman available? I think the Bears just worked him out recently.

Why sign Moorman or anybody else. Kiko Alonso would probably lead the league in net punting if you let him do it.

[dhockster 1,622]

How is Mario Williams Playing? I see he has 7.5 sacks through 5 games which is great, but is he really affecting how other teams play against the bills defense?

Just curious.

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

Come on guys, I like Stevie and he's been big for the Bills, but I think we almost certainly overrate him. His stats have been good but not elite. He has a reputation for beating top CBs, and he's done better than most, but his stats still aren't eye popping against them. I don't think he ever topped 100 yards against Revis. His production has been limited some by the poor QB play, but he's also been force fed to a point too. And his production would be a whole lot better if he didn't dtop so many big passes and if he wasn't hurt all the time. Let's face it, the guy has straight up cost them half a dozen games at least with horrible drops at the worst times. He's had really just one time that he came through under pressure and a bunch where he totally choked.

And all the soft tissue injuries have to be a concern to anybody watching him. How many groin, hamstring and back injuries is this guy going to have? I think it's very easy to imagine a scenario where Goodwin surpasses him simply due to all of Stevie's injuries keeping him out or limited all the time.

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

How is Mario Williams Playing? I see he has 7.5 sacks through 5 games which is great, but is he really affecting how other teams play against the bills defense?

Just curious.

He's getting double teamed some and creating fairly consistent pressure. And I don't want to whine, but the guy is being held a TON.

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

Now I'm PO'd:

Mike Rodak (@mikerodak) tweeted at 11:54 AM on Fri, Oct 04, 2013:

Eric Wood said Browns safety T.J. Ward yelled after Manuel injury "I told you to warn him we were going to get him"

[Steve Tasker 6,477]

Now I'm PO'd:

Mike Rodak (@mikerodak) tweeted at 11:54 AM on Fri, Oct 04, 2013:

Eric Wood said Browns safety T.J. Ward yelled after Manuel injury "I told you to warn him we were going to get him"

PO'd at who?

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

Now I'm PO'd:

Mike Rodak (@mikerodak) tweeted at 11:54 AM on Fri, Oct 04, 2013:

Eric Wood said Browns safety T.J. Ward yelled after Manuel injury "I told you to warn him we were going to get him"

PO'd at who?

Thought it would be obvious I'd be POd at Ward for intentionally injuring Manuel.

[Steve Tasker 6,477]

Now I'm PO'd:

Mike Rodak (@mikerodak) tweeted at 11:54 AM on Fri, Oct 04, 2013:

Eric Wood said Browns safety T.J. Ward yelled after Manuel injury "I told you to warn him we were going to get him"

PO'd at who?

Thought it would be obvious I'd be POd at Ward for intentionally injuring Manuel.

I wasn't sure. Ward wasn't the one who hit Manuel, and I'm sure there are far worse things said on a football field than that. The hit looked pretty clean to me.

Manuel tried to get extra yards and it bit him in the ###. He made a rookie mistake, and ultimately it (IMO) cost the Bills the game. Let's just hope it doesn't cost him the rest of his season.

[Grigs Allmoon 838]

Now I'm PO'd:

Mike Rodak (@mikerodak) tweeted at 11:54 AM on Fri, Oct 04, 2013:

Eric Wood said Browns safety T.J. Ward yelled after Manuel injury "I told you to warn him we were going to get him"

OL, DL say those sorts of things back and forth all the time. Nothing to see, IMO...

[Area51Inhabitant 42]

The fault lies with the new emphasis on not hitting players helmet to helmet so now a whole lot of tackling is taking place at the knees. Oh and to EJ, please get out of bounds after you get the first down!!!

[Aaron Rudnicki 8,650]

anyone think it's weird that Marrone kept Byrd out of the game if Byrd said he was ready and able to play?

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

Manuel has an LCL injury. Will be out "a few weeks" but is expected back.

Gilmore, Brooks and Byrd will all play against the Bengals.

Goodwin and Hopkins close to a return.

Stevie should be good to go next week.

Bills looking for other QB options.

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

anyone think it's weird that Marrone kept Byrd out of the game if Byrd said he was ready and able to play?

Marrone said he wanted to see Byrd play a full week of practices at full speed.

Said just now Byrd will play next week.

[Aaron Rudnicki 8,650]

anyone think it's weird that Marrone kept Byrd out of the game if Byrd said he was ready and able to play?

Marrone said he wanted to see Byrd play a full week of practices at full speed.

Said just now Byrd will play next week.

I know he said that, but he practiced in full and likely could have helped out there even in just a part-time role.

[Grigs Allmoon 838]

Manuel has an LCL injury. Will be out "a few weeks" but is expected back.

I'm calling it now... Another 7 or 8 win season to miss out on both the playoffs and a top pick.

EJ will probably come back after the team is about 2-7, and they'll finish 5-2.

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

Manuel has an LCL injury. Will be out "a few weeks" but is expected back.

I'm calling it now... Another 7 or 8 win season to miss out on both the playoffs and a top pick.

EJ will probably come back after the team is about 2-7, and they'll finish 5-2.

That wouldn't crush me. That would mean Manuel was improving. And while this team obviously needs more depth (and a LG), I think the starting talent is starting to look really good. I think the foundation is there. The defense could be elite. The offense has some tremendous young skill players.

They need depth at CB, a new LG, the safety position is up in the air due to Byrd and of course a lot hinges on Manuel's development. But it feels like the talent level has taken a big step forward.

Health has been their biggest opponent so far this season IMO.

[smapdi 24]

How is Mario Williams Playing? I see he has 7.5 sacks through 5 games which is great, but is he really affecting how other teams play against the bills defense?

Just curious.

Mario Williams has looked great in Pettine's defense. His 7.5 sacks has him tied for the league lead. He is consistently getting double teamed (and held). Offenses have been forced to focus a lot of attention on him allowing guys like Marcell Dareus, Kyle Williams, Kiko Alonso, Jerry Hughes, and Manny Lawson to make plays.

I can't wait to see how this defense looks when they get some key guys back from injury. This defenses' biggest problem has been their razor thin secondary. According to Marrone, they're expecting Gilmore, Byrd, and Brooks all to play against the Bengals.

This will be a totally different defense with their top-shelf defensive backs. Gilmore was on pace to be a lockdown #1 CB which is one of the most important parts to Pettines' attacking defense. Byrd is one of the best FS in the league. Brooks will provide some much needed CB depth and he won the nickel CB job out right. Couple those 3 with the return of McKelvin and this is a much better defense.

[Lascelle 52]

Manuel has an LCL injury. Will be out "a few weeks" but is expected back.

I'm calling it now... Another 7 or 8 win season to miss out on both the playoffs and a top pick.

EJ will probably come back after the team is about 2-7, and they'll finish 5-2.

Hard to rebuild when you perpetually suck at keeping free agents around and suck at tanking for a season like the Colts and Chiefs wisely did.

What you wind up with is years of mediocrity and the longest absence from the NFL playoffs in the league. Good job, guys!

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

From some quick reading, a Grade 1 LCL sprain would typically be 3 weeks. Recovery for a Grade 2 would be 6-8 weeks.

What concerns me is that it seems unusual for someone to have just an LCL injury. And LCL injuries typically occur on hits to the inside of the leg, not the outside. So I'm a bit concerned that the MRI today missed something.

[Aaron Rudnicki 8,650]

also think it was really a strange move by the Bills not to bring in a veteran backup after the Kolb injury in the preseason. You knew you were one hit away from losing Manuel. Was throwing Tuel into the fire really going to be a good thing for the rest of the offensive players and the team morale?

Seems clear (to me anyway) there is no chance to run an effective offense with Tuel under center at this point, even if everybody else was 100% healthy.

[The Duff Man 950]

Yeah Tuel time is going to be VERY ugly.

[OC Zed 347]

also think it was really a strange move by the Bills not to bring in a veteran backup after the Kolb injury in the preseason. You knew you were one hit away from losing Manuel. Was throwing Tuel into the fire really going to be a good thing for the rest of the offensive players and the team morale?

Seems clear (to me anyway) there is no chance to run an effective offense with Tuel under center at this point, even if everybody else was 100% healthy.

I think it's too early to make that statement. He was thrown into a second half on a short week, trailing, on the road, with WRs #1 and #3 out and RBs #1 and #2 dinged up. He completed 8 of 20 passes... a completion % that wasn't much worse than Manuel, by the way. Tuel did look alright in the preseason, so it wouldn't be outrageous to think that he might have some success during real games. I would like to see what he can do with a full week's worth of preparation and a gameplan geared around his strength (and 1 or 2 of our top receivers back).

I'm not second guessing the front office for not keeping a veteran QB after Kolb went down. Tuel was good enough and received enough reps in the preseason that you couldn't stash him away on the practice squad and the Bills didn't have the roster depth to afford 3 QBs. So it is what it is.

[OC Zed 347]

The one potential upside to the Manuel injury is that maybe they will stop calling all of those awful read option plays. They never work... Manuel never wants to run to keep the defenses honest and the defense is able to key in on Spiller (notice how Jackson is never used for those plays?).

[Biabreakable 4,259]

where are people getting this Goodwin WR2 projection as early as 2014 from? You think the Bills are going to cut Stevie 2 years into his 5-year deal or are we projecting an injury to a starter?

That was the absolute upside I can see for him. I expect it is more likely a fantasy WR3.

I do not think Stevie is that good either. Could be wrong there as well.

[Steve Tasker 6,477]

I think it's too early to make that statement. He was thrown into a second half on a short week, trailing, on the road, with WRs #1 and #3 out and RBs #1 and #2 dinged up.

Not to nitpick, but I believe it was a tie game when Manuel went down. Tuel's first few plays led to the Jackson TD run to make it 24-17 Bills. From then on, it was a 20-0 Cleveland run. IIRC.

[OC Zed 347]

I think it's too early to make that statement. He was thrown into a second half on a short week, trailing, on the road, with WRs #1 and #3 out and RBs #1 and #2 dinged up.

Not to nitpick, but I believe it was a tie game when Manuel went down. Tuel's first few plays led to the Jackson TD run to make it 24-17 Bills. From then on, it was a 20-0 Cleveland run. IIRC.

Yes, thanks for the correction. By the time Tuel got the ball back after Jackson's 2nd TD, it was tied again and then they were trailing on their next possession.

[raidergil 101]

Not sure if it was mentioned earlier but typical Bills luck right? Building yr, start the rookie ad get him prepared for yr2. Instead gets injured, suck so bad we get high pick Ina QB heavy draft but since we don't know about Manuel we pass on the QBs and pick another supposed great CB.

[Aaron Rudnicki 8,650]

They could really use another OLB/DE who can get to the QB, a TE, and a G. It's nice to not need a QB but hopefully it doesn't come back to haunt them.

[OC Zed 347]

Not sure if it was mentioned earlier but typical Bills luck right? Building yr, start the rookie ad get him prepared for yr2. Instead gets injured, suck so bad we get high pick Ina QB heavy draft but since we don't know about Manuel we pass on the QBs and pick another supposed great CB.

I've been fearing this since April. I'm not convinced Manuel is the guy... I just don't know of any other QBs that were inaccurate at the college level and then grew into being accurate passers at the pro level. Completing 50% of you passes isn't going to cut it in the NFL.

[Grigs Allmoon 838]

Manuel has an LCL injury. Will be out "a few weeks" but is expected back.

I'm calling it now... Another 7 or 8 win season to miss out on both the playoffs and a top pick.

EJ will probably come back after the team is about 2-7, and they'll finish 5-2.

That wouldn't crush me. That would mean Manuel was improving.

It would, but not all off-seasons are net-gains. The last couple have been, but this one could be a loss, leaving the rest of the team a bit weaker for next season - especially if they are picking in the bottom half of the round.

Who knows... At least there are a lot of bright spots on the team that are interesting to watch.

[flysack 729]

Not sure if it was mentioned earlier but typical Bills luck right? Building yr, start the rookie ad get him prepared for yr2. Instead gets injured, suck so bad we get high pick Ina QB heavy draft but since we don't know about Manuel we pass on the QBs and pick another supposed great CB.

I've been fearing this since April. I'm not convinced Manuel is the guy... I just don't know of any other QBs that were inaccurate at the college level and then grew into being accurate passers at the pro level. Completing 50% of you passes isn't going to cut it in the NFL.

Jake Locker?

Edited October 5, 2013 by flysack

[flysack 729]

While the Manuel injury sucks, I'm not worried about picking in the middle of the first. Let's face it, unless EJ pulled a Ryan Leaf, we were wedded to him for at least two years. He's shown enough to merit that, IMO. So we weren't picking a QB in the first anyway.

I'd say their most pressing need is a starting LG, then depth everywhere. They can get the #1 G in the draft at spots 10 to 20. After that, I trust this regime to draft quality depth in the later rounds. Their last two drafts earned them that trust.

[flysack 729]

So, they have to go after Josh Johnson, right?

[The Duff Man 950]

Manuel's percentage will go up if he just learns to take something off his short passes, there have been at least 5 drops on passes under 5 yards where he is throwing it as hard as he can and the reciever can barely get their hands up in time.

Some screens (HELLO HACKETT!!!) would also help.

I think both Woods and Johnson are skilled enough that he can give them a chance at deep balls, versus out of bounds, and they can also catch a few.

All of that can be coached.

But accuracy on the deep ball does not look there. Perhaps better footwork will help? But do guys ever improve mechanics that much? I can still remember how much Fitz was supposed to improve in that area

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

Manuel's percentage will go up if he just learns to take something off his short passes, there have been at least 5 drops on passes under 5 yards where he is throwing it as hard as he can and the reciever can barely get their hands up in time.

Some screens (HELLO HACKETT!!!) would also help.

I think both Woods and Johnson are skilled enough that he can give them a chance at deep balls, versus out of bounds, and they can also catch a few.

All of that can be coached.

But accuracy on the deep ball does not look there. Perhaps better footwork will help? But do guys ever improve mechanics that much? I can still remember how much Fitz was supposed to improve in that area

His main mechanics issue is actually pretty small and can be corrected. His biggest problem is he tends to keep his weight on his back foot instead of stepping into deep throws and transferring that weight to his front foot. If he takes his time, plants and follows through he's much more accurate.

As for QB news, the Bills brought in Pat White today and will look at Dennis Dickson tomorrow.

[flysack 729]

Manuel's percentage will go up if he just learns to take something off his short passes, there have been at least 5 drops on passes under 5 yards where he is throwing it as hard as he can and the reciever can barely get their hands up in time.

Some screens (HELLO HACKETT!!!) would also help.

I think both Woods and Johnson are skilled enough that he can give them a chance at deep balls, versus out of bounds, and they can also catch a few.

All of that can be coached.

But accuracy on the deep ball does not look there. Perhaps better footwork will help? But do guys ever improve mechanics that much? I can still remember how much Fitz was supposed to improve in that area

His main mechanics issue is actually pretty small and can be corrected. His biggest problem is he tends to keep his weight on his back foot instead of stepping into deep throws and transferring that weight to his front foot. If he takes his time, plants and follows through he's much more accurate.

As for QB news, the Bills brought in Pat White today and will look at Dennis Dickson tomorrow.

He actually looked pretty good in preseason with Washington. I was surprised they let him go over Rex Grossman.

[Area51Inhabitant 42]

Manuel's percentage will go up if he just learns to take something off his short passes, there have been at least 5 drops on passes under 5 yards where he is throwing it as hard as he can and the reciever can barely get their hands up in time.

Some screens (HELLO HACKETT!!!) would also help.

I think both Woods and Johnson are skilled enough that he can give them a chance at deep balls, versus out of bounds, and they can also catch a few.

All of that can be coached.

But accuracy on the deep ball does not look there. Perhaps better footwork will help? But do guys ever improve mechanics that much? I can still remember how much Fitz was supposed to improve in that area

His main mechanics issue is actually pretty small and can be corrected. His biggest problem is he tends to keep his weight on his back foot instead of stepping into deep throws and transferring that weight to his front foot. If he takes his time, plants and follows through he's much more accurate.

As for QB news, the Bills brought in Pat White today and will look at Dennis Dickson tomorrow.

He actually looked pretty good in preseason with Washington. I was surprised they let him go over Rex Grossman.

There's a reason White's been out of the league for as long as he's been. He's not an NFL caliber passer. Even this preseason, he's barely hitting 50 percent. His best game was in the last one which means vs the Tampa 3rd stringers. Unless we're planning to run a whole lot of read option stuff, I seriously hope he never sees the field for us.

[IvanKaramazov 15,512]

Manuel's percentage will go up if he just learns to take something off his short passes, there have been at least 5 drops on passes under 5 yards where he is throwing it as hard as he can and the reciever can barely get their hands up in time.

Some screens (HELLO HACKETT!!!) would also help.

I think both Woods and Johnson are skilled enough that he can give them a chance at deep balls, versus out of bounds, and they can also catch a few.

All of that can be coached.

But accuracy on the deep ball does not look there. Perhaps better footwork will help? But do guys ever improve mechanics that much? I can still remember how much Fitz was supposed to improve in that area

His main mechanics issue is actually pretty small and can be corrected. His biggest problem is he tends to keep his weight on his back foot instead of stepping into deep throws and transferring that weight to his front foot. If he takes his time, plants and follows through he's much more accurate.

As for QB news, the Bills brought in Pat White today and will look at Dennis Dickson tomorrow.

He actually looked pretty good in preseason with Washington. I was surprised they let him go over Rex Grossman.

There's a reason White's been out of the league for as long as he's been. He's not an NFL caliber passer. Even this preseason, he's barely hitting 50 percent. His best game was in the last one which means vs the Tampa 3rd stringers. Unless we're planning to run a whole lot of read option stuff, I seriously hope he never sees the field for us.

Let's be frank here. Anybody who we bring in at this point is somebody who, by definition, was unable to make an NFL roster. There's nobody out there who's not going to be a liability under center.

[GroveDiesel 6,820]

Manuel's percentage will go up if he just learns to take something off his short passes, there have been at least 5 drops on passes under 5 yards where he is throwing it as hard as he can and the reciever can barely get their hands up in time.

Some screens (HELLO HACKETT!!!) would also help.

I think both Woods and Johnson are skilled enough that he can give them a chance at deep balls, versus out of bounds, and they can also catch a few.

All of that can be coached.

But accuracy on the deep ball does not look there. Perhaps better footwork will help? But do guys ever improve mechanics that much? I can still remember how much Fitz was supposed to improve in that area

His main mechanics issue is actually pretty small and can be corrected. His biggest problem is he tends to keep his weight on his back foot instead of stepping into deep throws and transferring that weight to his front foot. If he takes his time, plants and follows through he's much more accurate.

As for QB news, the Bills brought in Pat White today and will look at Dennis Dickson tomorrow.

He actually looked pretty good in preseason with Washington. I was surprised they let him go over Rex Grossman.

There's a reason White's been out of the league for as long as he's been. He's not an NFL caliber passer. Even this preseason, he's barely hitting 50 percent. His best game was in the last one which means vs the Tampa 3rd stringers. Unless we're planning to run a whole lot of read option stuff, I seriously hope he never sees the field for us.

Let's be frank here. Anybody who we bring in at this point is somebody who, by definition, was unable to make an NFL roster. There's nobody out there who's not going to be a liability under center.

Yeah, Joe Montana isn't walking through that door.

[Mr. Peterson 164]

Byrd on the block. Let's hope we can get more than a mid round pick for the guy. Will be disappointed if it's anything less than a 3rd.