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GroveDiesel

***Official Buffalo Bills Thread 2020 Version***

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I'll never understand the idea that criticizing bad offiating is somehow bad form. It's a part of the game and can have a large impact. To pretend that officiating should be above criticism is a line that the NFL loves fans to buy into because it means they don't have any reason to fix it.

The refs make a lot of mistakes and it's not fun to watch them in a game you have no vested interest in, let alone one where those bad calls impact your team negatively. But, I don't think it really was the difference in the game yesterday. Brady shredded them. If every call was made exactly right, I'm still pretty sure the Patriots come out ahead.

I'm not sure how you can possibly say that. The Bills ended up out of FG range after the two OPI calls on Woods. And the Bills were one TD and a 2 point conversion when the refs failed to call both Edelman and Gronk for obvious OPI on crucial 3rd downs. With the way NE was calling plays, it was highly unlikely that they would have gone deep on 3rd and 20. Down 8 with 5 minutes left after scoring on the previous drive and stopping the Pats is a very winnable game IMO.

The Bills were sloppy and certainly didn't deserve a solid win, but I guarantee you that if you run the win probability numbers of the Pats converting those 3rd downs versus having the penalty and it being 3rd and 20, it would make a sizable difference in the win probabilities.

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I'll never understand the idea that criticizing bad offiating is somehow bad form. It's a part of the game and can have a large impact. To pretend that officiating should be above criticism is a line that the NFL loves fans to buy into because it means they don't have any reason to fix it.

The refs make a lot of mistakes and it's not fun to watch them in a game you have no vested interest in, let alone one where those bad calls impact your team negatively. But, I don't think it really was the difference in the game yesterday. Brady shredded them. If every call was made exactly right, I'm still pretty sure the Patriots come out ahead.

I'm not sure how you can possibly say that. The Bills ended up out of FG range after the two OPI calls on Woods. And the Bills were one TD and a 2 point conversion when the refs failed to call both Edelman and Gronk for obvious OPI on crucial 3rd downs. With the way NE was calling plays, it was highly unlikely that they would have gone deep on 3rd and 20. Down 8 with 5 minutes left after scoring on the previous drive and stopping the Pats is a very winnable game IMO.

The Bills were sloppy and certainly didn't deserve a solid win, but I guarantee you that if you run the win probability numbers of the Pats converting those 3rd downs versus having the penalty and it being 3rd and 20, it would make a sizable difference in the win probabilities.

Different, sure. It's probably smaller than you think given the parlay of events (TD, 2pt, defensive stop) you need just to get into OT and lose 50% of the time.

Now if we can fade the atrotious OPI's against us and they call Gronk/Edelman (maybe this is a lot to ask but it would've been closer to correct than what actually happened) - you're looking at a 2-5pt game and a much better shot.

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Did anyone else watch the Watkins/Revis matchup intently like I tried to do? I noticed that far more often than not, on Bills pass plays, Watkins was just running vertical routes on the sideline, and Orton never even looked his way. It's as if Watkins was a decoy on almost every play just to take Revis out of the game. Revis was on the line against Watkins on nearly every down, but almost never played bump coverage. Watkins would get a free release and head straight down the sideline with Revis blanketing him.

I will say, however, that Watkins did create separation here and there. There was one play in particular where he torched Revis, absolutely torched him, and had him beat by 2-3 steps. There was safety help over the top, but it was an easy 30+ yard gain if Orton had looked his way. Orton threw it to Chandler, though, and he converted for a first down.

I just felt it was a lack of innovation from the coaching staff. I understand Revis is a very good player, no doubt. But it's almost like they gameplanned away from him. IMO, if your gameplan involves taking your own best offensive weapon out of the game entirely because you're afraid of a ####### cornerback from the other team...that's just silly. And if you're gonna do that, why bench Mike Williams? I know matchups are important and Marrone stressed matchups heavily in his post-game comments....but if you're gonna draft a receiver top 5 - a receiver who has looked very, very good so far - you can't just hide him when he goes up against a good corner. Let him play.

I was pretty disappointed in how they used him yesterday. It wasn't that he got dominated by Revis. It's that the Bills offense was designed in such a way to make Watkins invisible to neutralize Revis. That's silly to me.

Edited by Steve Tasker

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And if you're gonna do that, why bench Mike Williams?

Given who we are talking about here, I assume this was for some type of disciplinary reason.

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CJ Spiller had just 12 snaps in the game. Not sure why these guys can't figure out how to use him.

Erik Pears was actually given a positive grade by PFF this week.

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And if you're gonna do that, why bench Mike Williams?

Given who we are talking about here, I assume this was for some type of disciplinary reason.

I figured that was the case.

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Did anyone else watch the Watkins/Revis matchup intently like I tried to do? I noticed that far more often than not, on Bills pass plays, Watkins was just running vertical routes on the sideline, and Orton never even looked his way. It's as if Watkins was a decoy on almost every play just to take Revis out of the game. Revis was on the line against Watkins on nearly every down, but almost never played bump coverage. Watkins would get a free release and head straight down the sideline with Revis blanketing him.

I will say, however, that Watkins did create separation here and there. There was one play in particular where he torched Revis, absolutely torched him, and had him beat by 2-3 steps. There was safety help over the top, but it was an easy 30+ yard gain if Orton had looked his way. Orton threw it to Chandler, though, and he converted for a first down.

I just felt it was a lack of innovation from the coaching staff. I understand Revis is a very good player, no doubt. But it's almost like they gameplanned away from him. IMO, if your gameplan involves taking your own best offensive weapon out of the game entirely because you're afraid of a ####### cornerback from the other team...that's just silly. And if you're gonna do that, why bench Mike Williams? I know matchups are important and Marrone stressed matchups heavily in his post-game comments....but if you're gonna draft a receiver top 5 - a receiver who has looked very, very good so far - you can't just hide him when he goes up against a good corner. Let him play.

I was pretty disappointed in how they used him yesterday. It wasn't that he got dominated by Revis. It's that the Bills offense was designed in such a way to make Watkins invisible to neutralize Revis. That's silly to me.

Pretty much agree. Didn't understand the "Rodgers backing away from Sherman" criticism because umm, he's covering their scrub WR while Nelson/Cobb are working against inferior players...seems like a win for the Packers at least in theory?

Obviously this is different when the CB is just gonna shadow a certain guy. Gotta throw to a guy we gave up the farm for.

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Opinion poll - how would you feel about (X) if the Bills finish 8-8 and miss the playoffs -

X = The coaching staff

X = The coaching staff getting another year or two (Pegula keeps or fires)

X = Orton as a two year stopgap while they hunt for yet another QB

I'd give the coaching staff another season if they finish at 8-8. That isn't bad when considering you've got at best two mediocre QBs on your roster.

And if they finish at 8-8, I'd likely head into next season with both Orton and Manuel on the roster (assuming Orton looks competent the rest of the way). The Bills likely won't have a crack at a top QB in the draft (Browns have their #1) and it's too early to definitely say EJ can't get better.

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CJ Spiller had just 12 snaps in the game. Not sure why these guys can't figure out how to use him.

Erik Pears was actually given a positive grade by PFF this week.

They will only use him on running plays where he gets the ball... which means the Pats don't need to steal play-calling signs to figure out what play we are running.

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I'm not sure if this is accurate or not, but a buddy told me that yesterday's 105-yard performance from Chandler was the first time a Buffalo TE had a 100-yard day since Pete Metzelaars did it in 1992. Oof.

Edited by OC Zed

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So 2 weeks into the Orton switch, 1-1, he plays meh in the first with a majority of his yards coming from YAC but he made one real nice throw. In the second he loses the game by straight giving away 10 points to the Pats off turnovers. One of which came after the D gave the ball back to him. So frustrated with this team.

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Best evolving thread title in the Pool. Hope it finishes strong, I've always liked the Bills best in that division.

Edited by chauncey

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So 2 weeks into the Orton switch, 1-1, he plays meh in the first with a majority of his yards coming from YAC but he made one real nice throw. In the second he loses the game by straight giving away 10 points to the Pats off turnovers. One of which came after the D gave the ball back to him. So frustrated with this team.

Boy you just couldn't wait until they lost with Orton huh.

EJ stinks, move on.

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So 2 weeks into the Orton switch, 1-1, he plays meh in the first with a majority of his yards coming from YAC but he made one real nice throw. In the second he loses the game by straight giving away 10 points to the Pats off turnovers. One of which came after the D gave the ball back to him. So frustrated with this team.

Boy you just couldn't wait until they lost with Orton huh.

EJ stinks, move on.

No, I want them to win every game. If he were to play great and win I'd change my feelings about the switch pretty quick but it's not going to happen, Orton is a known quantity, he sucks. There is a reason he lost his job to out of the league Tim Tebow.

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Hoping for some turnovers this week, Orton putting us in a first half bind won't work vs compentant coached teams as we just saw.

Marrone is clueless and the offense is boring because we can't run the ball and seem to be giving everybody a turn,

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The Bills are now trying Kouandjio at guard. I guess this is good... like being able to salvage $0.20 on the dollar from a Chapter 11 claim when you were expecting to get back nothing...

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-news/2014/10/16/6989585/buffalo-bills-are-working-cyrus-kouandjio-out-at-guard

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The Bills are now trying Kouandjio at guard. I guess this is good... like being able to salvage $0.20 on the dollar from a Chapter 11 claim when you were expecting to get back nothing...

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/buffalo-bills-news/2014/10/16/6989585/buffalo-bills-are-working-cyrus-kouandjio-out-at-guard

Bills ahead of the curve as usual.

My dad and Robert Mays both suggested that two weeks ago.

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The Bills have always been one of my secondary rooting interests, but I can not figure out what they are doing...

Trade draft picks for Brown and Williams... inactives on game day

Draft EJ and Spiller in RD1 and don't use them

Trade away a 2015 first to move up for Watkins

Kyle Orton?

This is a 6-8 win team. I hope for the best, but I dont like the current direction.

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I've thought this for awhile, but it seems like people are starting to come around on the idea that the coaching staff is holding this team back. I heard multiple calls to WGR this week on this topic. Make no mistake, the Bills have no QB. But they have a ton of offensive weapons and a good defense. I'd go so far as to say they're basically a playoff team at 21 of the 22 positions.

- how does CJ Spiller not fit in this offense?

- I don't know if anyone noticed on New England's backbreaker drive last week, with the score 30-22 late, the backup D-line was in for that drive. The backups have played well this season, no doubt, and I know they like rotations, but that was THE DRIVE that ended the game. Put your starters in.

- what the #### does Frank Summers do?

- running Watkins as a decoy all day??

I almost wonder if the coaching staff is out-thinking themselves. I dunno.

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Predictions for the Vikings game?

:popcorn:

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23-17 Buffalo, Freddy, CJ, Woods and Watkins produce and the D creates a few turnovers. Go Bills

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Spiller not worthy but Ivory can run all over Pats? At this point our staff hasn't watched tape of what Jets or Phins do against NE? NE owns us like Mia in 70s yet Mia & NY can play with them.

To make things worse I just watched Flutie Football Life & almost think we deserve to still suck for being so stupid back then. Ghost of Flutie!

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Spiller not worthy but Ivory can run all over Pats? At this point our staff hasn't watched tape of what Jets or Phins do against NE? NE owns us like Mia in 70s yet Mia & NY can play with them.

To make things worse I just watched Flutie Football Life & almost think we deserve to still suck for being so stupid back then. Ghost of Flutie!

I still have a box of Flutie Flakes! :tebow:

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Trade rumors heating up around Spiller.

As crazy as it sounds, I almost wish someone like Chip Kelly would throw us a 1st rounder for him. Then they could start Freddy and groom Bryce Brown to be the guy next year and have a pick to nab (yet another) QB in the draft.

It ain't going to happen though. Chip loves CJ but won't waste a first rounder when he already has two great speed backs. And no one else is going to cough up a first round pick for a running back. The Trent Richardson deal was the last straw for that kind of nonsense.

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Trade rumors heating up around Spiller.

As crazy as it sounds, I almost wish someone like Chip Kelly would throw us a 1st rounder for him. Then they could start Freddy and groom Bryce Brown to be the guy next year and have a pick to nab (yet another) QB in the draft.

It ain't going to happen though. Chip loves CJ but won't waste a first rounder when he already has two great speed backs. And no one else is going to cough up a first round pick for a running back. The Trent Richardson deal was the last straw for that kind of nonsense.

A 1st is out of the question from anyone. I think anything more than a 4th rounder is a pipe dream. No one is going to give up much even if they like him a lot since he can walk after this season.

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Why would anyone give up anything higher than a 7th? Isnt Spiller just a half season rental at this point? Seems like he has more value to Buffalo.

Edited by Max Power

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Why would anyone give up anything higher than a 7th? Isnt Spiller just a half season rental at this point? Seems like he has more value to Buffalo.

He might be willing to sign an extension with a new team...

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Why would anyone give up anything higher than a 7th? Isnt Spiller just a half season rental at this point? Seems like he has more value to Buffalo.

He might be willing to sign an extension with a new team...

I guess that is my point. If he proves himself, his new team now has to shell out the big bucks. So why should a GM trade a decent pick for a guy whos value will be determined by his play with said team? 2015, Spiller is free to sign with ANYONE. If he produces the second half of this year, someone will offer him more money than he is worth...

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Just read Jackson got carted off.

Dixon or Brown? I like Brown more from a talent standpoint, but Dixon seems to have the spot ahead of Brown.

Thoughts?

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Good riddance to the Moron. Shame him and his staff will remain employed as paper personnel until the end of the season.

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Good riddance to the Moron. Shame him and his staff will remain employed as paper personnel until the end of the season.

yeah, Bills fans hate winners, huh?

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I think they are going to have to retool the passing game entirely. The offensive line is so bad and I don't think the coaches are comfortable relying on any of the remaining backs in pass protection. I'd expect to see a lot of short drop backs and quick routes.

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I think they are going to have to retool the passing game entirely. The offensive line is so bad and I don't think the coaches are comfortable relying on any of the remaining backs in pass protection. I'd expect to see a lot of short drop backs and quick routes.

RBs are so cheap these days, I wonder if they dangle a 5 or 6 out there for a decent 3rd down RB.

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It seemed like the line was playing decently earlier in the season, but then just completely collapsed. This unit needs serious attention in the off-season.

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Good riddance to the Moron. Shame him and his staff will remain employed as paper personnel until the end of the season.

yeah, Bills fans hate winners, huh?

Yeah, when they are winning despite the coaching.

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Good riddance to the Moron. Shame him and his staff will remain employed as paper personnel until the end of the season.

yeah, Bills fans hate winners, huh?

Yeah, when they are winning despite the coaching.

what did the coaches do wrong today? forget to tell their players to hold onto the football and not fumble it 3 times?

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Good riddance to the Moron. Shame him and his staff will remain employed as paper personnel until the end of the season.

yeah, Bills fans hate winners, huh?

Yeah, when they are winning despite the coaching.

what did the coaches do wrong today? forget to tell their players to hold onto the football and not fumble it 3 times?

It was a pretty well coached game, I thought. The opened up the play book a bit. That's a good sign. My only criticism is a couple too many runs after Fred and CJ went out. There were a couple runs where I was like, "really?"

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Good riddance to the Moron. Shame him and his staff will remain employed as paper personnel until the end of the season.

yeah, Bills fans hate winners, huh?

Yeah, when they are winning despite the coaching.

what did the coaches do wrong today? forget to tell their players to hold onto the football and not fumble it 3 times?

It was a pretty well coached game, I thought. The opened up the play book a bit. That's a good sign. My only criticism is a couple too many runs after Fred and CJ went out. There were a couple runs where I was like, "really?"

Agreed. I'm not a fan of this coaching staff, but I thought they did as well as they could under very difficult circumstances.

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NFL.com is reporting Spiller is done for the season. I guess this isn't a surprise, although I was holding out hope they would place him on the short-term IR with the potential that he'd be available for the late regular season or playoffs. Really disappointing.

ETA: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000413047/article/injury-roundup-cj-spiller-breaks-his-collarbone

Edited by OC Zed

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If we were ever gonna win easily this should've been the game. But I guess if you can win with 4 turnovers you'll take it and move on.

I'm not glad the RBs got hurt or anything, but if it stops us from running the ball into a wall every 1st down (especially against teams like the Jets), maybe it's not such a terrible thing and Bryce Brown is fine.

Jerry Hughes is gonna be expensive to keep, no? He's our new "best player nobody knows about because he plays for Buffalo" guy. Just brings it every game.

Here we are with another gotta have, crossroads type game with the Jets; like both 2011 games (the white out in Buffalo and the Stevie Johnson game @NJ) and opening day 2012. Better come to play this time. I think it's a coinflip but Vegas actually has us a 3pt dog.

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I think I screamed "this team sucks" 5 times on the rival drive. And then, all of a sudden Chandler holds on to one, and Hogan manages to come up with a big play and then, they didn't suck as bad. Until next week.

This team is killing me. Slowly. But with great purpose.

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Urbik has the be in this week, then figure out Pears at the bye week, maybe Cyrus will be ready or we can pluck someone somewhere.

Robey continues to get torched as well.

McKelvin played well although he was burned deep by Patterson that should have put the game away.

Run D has looked poor since Kyles return, can't wait to watch the All 22 but they ran right at him. He's really overrated as a run stopper.

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I'm excited to see what Bryce Brown can finally do on the Bills. It's about time we see him in action. Him and Boobie might make for a nice RBBC.

And I wonder how quickly the Jets can get Harvin involved in the offense. Geno is starting to get some decent targets to throw to with him and Decker. I think the Jets are more dangerous than their record implies.

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Buffalo has 3 of the top 11 sackers in the NFL right now. Is there any way they can keep Hughes around after this year? My bet is no. Probably time to get an extension done with Dareus too though.

Hard to believe that Spiller's time in Buffalo is probably done. I hope that he goes somewhere else and dominates next year. He seems like a good dude and he clearly has talent. Probably my biggest complaint with Hackett has been his inability/unwillingness to use Spiller correctly.

Edited by GroveDiesel

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