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2021 Buffalo Bills - Same as it ever was*** (2 Viewers)

I don't know how you can trash Orton. He had one bad game, but is 3-2 as a starter with 2 late game-winning drives in those 3 wins. He's a Bryce Brown or McKelvin fumble away from being 4-1 right now with no running game, a banged up rookie #1 WR, and a sieve for an offensive line.

Panthers fans aren't feeling too great about their elite young QB right now. Their defense from last year was about as good as it gets and this year they can't stop many people.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki said:
I don't know how you can trash Orton. He had one bad game, but is 3-2 as a starter with 2 late game-winning drives in those 3 wins. He's a Bryce Brown or McKelvin fumble away from being 4-1 right now with no running game, a banged up rookie #1 WR, and a sieve for an offensive line.

Panthers fans aren't feeling too great about their elite young QB right now. Their defense from last year was about as good as it gets and this year they can't stop many people.
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He shouldn't be trashed, but he is who he is (which is not a franchise QB).

 
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
I don't know how you can trash Orton. He had one bad game, but is 3-2 as a starter with 2 late game-winning drives in those 3 wins. He's a Bryce Brown or McKelvin fumble away from being 4-1 right now with no running game, a banged up rookie #1 WR, and a sieve for an offensive line.

Panthers fans aren't feeling too great about their elite young QB right now. Their defense from last year was about as good as it gets and this year they can't stop many people.
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He shouldn't be trashed, but he is who he is (which is not a franchise QB).
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with this defense and an average running game, they don't need an elite QB.

only so many of those "franchise" QBs to go around.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
I don't know how you can trash Orton. He had one bad game, but is 3-2 as a starter with 2 late game-winning drives in those 3 wins. He's a Bryce Brown or McKelvin fumble away from being 4-1 right now with no running game, a banged up rookie #1 WR, and a sieve for an offensive line.

Panthers fans aren't feeling too great about their elite young QB right now. Their defense from last year was about as good as it gets and this year they can't stop many people.
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He shouldn't be trashed, but he is who he is (which is not a franchise QB).
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with this defense and an average running game, they don't need an elite QB.

only so many of those "franchise" QBs to go around.
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Well, they don't have an average running game either, and I didn't say they needed an elite QB.

No doubt there are only so many of those "franchise" QBs to go around. Too bad they passed on one a couple of years ago.

 
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
I don't know how you can trash Orton. He had one bad game, but is 3-2 as a starter with 2 late game-winning drives in those 3 wins. He's a Bryce Brown or McKelvin fumble away from being 4-1 right now with no running game, a banged up rookie #1 WR, and a sieve for an offensive line.

Panthers fans aren't feeling too great about their elite young QB right now. Their defense from last year was about as good as it gets and this year they can't stop many people.
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He shouldn't be trashed, but he is who he is (which is not a franchise QB).
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with this defense and an average running game, they don't need an elite QB.

only so many of those "franchise" QBs to go around.
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Well, they don't have an average running game either, and I didn't say they needed an elite QB.

No doubt there are only so many of those "franchise" QBs to go around. Too bad they passed on one a couple of years ago.
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I know, but you don't throw out Orton because the running game and line suck. He's good enough to win with if you have a strong team around him.

I'm mainly replying to the post from Grove. Bills beat the Dolphins on Thursday and they are still alive for the playoffs.

I don't get all this doom and gloom from most Bills fans. Yes, the loss sucked but this team is still getting better.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
I don't know how you can trash Orton. He had one bad game, but is 3-2 as a starter with 2 late game-winning drives in those 3 wins. He's a Bryce Brown or McKelvin fumble away from being 4-1 right now with no running game, a banged up rookie #1 WR, and a sieve for an offensive line.

Panthers fans aren't feeling too great about their elite young QB right now. Their defense from last year was about as good as it gets and this year they can't stop many people.
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He shouldn't be trashed, but he is who he is (which is not a franchise QB).
Click to expand...
with this defense and an average running game, they don't need an elite QB.

only so many of those "franchise" QBs to go around.
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Well, they don't have an average running game either, and I didn't say they needed an elite QB.

No doubt there are only so many of those "franchise" QBs to go around. Too bad they passed on one a couple of years ago.
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I know, but you don't throw out Orton because the running game and line suck. He's good enough to win with if you have a strong team around him.
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Good enough to win what? I think we had this "discussion" a while back, but I'm thinking longer term. It would obviously be great progress if the team made the playoffs as a wild-card, but no one in their right mind thinks they are going to be serious contenders for the championship this year or anytime during this "window" with Orton at QB.

Orton is a great back-up QB- a guy who if your starter gets hurt, he can come in and keep you competitive for a few games until he comes back. He isn't a guy you want to start all season for you, unless you're the 2000 Ravens (or something like that).

 
humpback said:
Good enough to win what? I think we had this "discussion" a while back, but I'm thinking longer term. It would obviously be great progress if the team made the playoffs as a wild-card, but no one in their right mind thinks they are going to be serious contenders for the championship this year or anytime during this "window" with Orton at QB.

Orton is a great back-up QB- a guy who if your starter gets hurt, he can come in and keep you competitive for a few games until he comes back. He isn't a guy you want to start all season for you, unless you're the 2000 Ravens (or something like that).
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win more games than you lose.

might give some players on the team a reason to stick around instead of bolting every time they hit free agency because the team is constantly rebuilding in search of that elusive superstar QB who can win games on his own.

Orton is no worse than probably 5 or 10 starters in the league. He's a great backup and a low-end starter. He's the best option the Bills have right now. Instead of crying about what he isn't, let's see what they can do with him and then figure out a plan in the offseason.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki said:
I'm mainly replying to the post from Grove. Bills beat the Dolphins on Thursday and they are still alive for the playoffs.

I don't get all this doom and gloom from most Bills fans. Yes, the loss sucked but this team is still getting better.
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They still have to play Manning, Rodgers and Brady. 3 losses.

 
Yeah, I don't get the criticism of Orton. He's not an elite QB who will singlehandedly win games for you, but nobody ever said he was. He's no worse than many of the current starters for teams in playoff contention, e.g. KC, PHI, ARI, MIA, CLE.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
Good enough to win what? I think we had this "discussion" a while back, but I'm thinking longer term. It would obviously be great progress if the team made the playoffs as a wild-card, but no one in their right mind thinks they are going to be serious contenders for the championship this year or anytime during this "window" with Orton at QB.

Orton is a great back-up QB- a guy who if your starter gets hurt, he can come in and keep you competitive for a few games until he comes back. He isn't a guy you want to start all season for you, unless you're the 2000 Ravens (or something like that).
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win more games than you lose.

might give some players on the team a reason to stick around instead of bolting every time they hit free agency because the team is constantly rebuilding in search of that elusive superstar QB who can win games on his own.

Orton is no worse than probably 5 or 10 starters in the league. He's a great backup and a low-end starter. He's the best option the Bills have right now. Instead of crying about what he isn't, let's see what they can do with him and then figure out a plan in the offseason.
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My reply came prior to your edit- now I see that you were mainly responding to the post from GD. I'm not crying about Orton by any stretch, just trying to be realistic.

That being said, I can't really blame fans for not having the patience to wait and see what they do at QB in the offseason. This team has been trying to get a good QB for decades now.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
I don't get all this doom and gloom from most Bills fans. Yes, the loss sucked but this team is still getting better.
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I think a lot of it has to do with the overall strength of the AFC this year and the upcoming schedule. If it was a down year for the AFC and the Bills were 5-4 with an average upcoming schedule, we'd all be ecstatic...but it's not. I think you're going to need a minimum of 10 wins this year to sniff the AFC playoffs, and even then it might not be good enough (like Arizona last year). Seemingly every year there are teams in the 9-7 range that miss out due to tiebreakers and such, and this year it looks like that could be the Bills. I think we're all a little frustrated that this team is so close to making that leap to the playoffs, but it just looks so far away.

And to even get to 10-6, they'll need to beat 3 playoff contenders, a division rival that just beat Pittsburgh, and, well, Oakland in Oakland. That's a tall order for any team, let alone the Bills.

From my perspective, it's just so close yet so far. This is the best Bills team in years. The defense is there, the offensive playmakers are there....it just doesn't all fit together when the time is right. The Bills could go on a fantastic 5-2 run down the stretch and miss the playoffs at 10-6 because they're 6-6 in conference. How brutal would that be....and it could've been saved if they could've put the Chiefs away.

I want to have hope....it's just looking kinda grim right now. The team is getting better, but speaking for myself only...my patience dwindles with every passing year. I'm sick of moral victories.

 
they won 3 road games they could/should have lost this year.

Chicago

Detroit
Minnesota

they lost at least 2 home games they could/should have won this year:

Houston

Kansas City

I want to see them make the playoffs as much as anybody, but it's tough to go from bottom-feeder to contender overnight.

it's not like this is the only chance they will have to be good. they are building towards something, and now have stable wealthy ownership in place. I think they have a competent front office as well. still undecided on Marrone, but he's not a disaster like some of the previous guys they've had.

I see a lot of positives with this team, yet everything I read here and elsewhere tends to focus on the negative.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
Lascelle said:
Whether we approve of Marrone and his staff or not is a moot point. The reality is that they're all going to be out of a job unless the Bills make the playoffs this year
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what makes you so sure of this?

Terry Pegula has never given any indication of this type of ownership style during his time with the Sabres. If anything, he is patient to a fault.

But, he was a huge fan and had some attachment to the Ruff/Regier regime there. Not sure he has any similar attachment to Marrone and the Bills coaches.

If they did get rid of Marrone though, how do you break up this defense? Would that mean giving Jim Schwartz a shot at the head job? After the way things went in Detroit, not sure that's what Bills fans should be hoping for either.

They honestly might be better off sticking with these guys for one more year given the signs of progress I think we are seeing.
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He might be less patient when their first draft pick is 51st overall after missing the playoffs again. What you call progress is basically a product of shoving their chips in for this year in the form of the Watkins trade & picking up Orton. That equals playoffs or bust imo. If those moves were made to get to 8-8 so they could talk about progress then OMG that's even worse.

The OL regressed & Spiller when he played was a non-factor.

The D is very good but its efforts are being wasted, just like it was in '03 and '04 and last year (holy crap let me please not be repeating this in 2024). Most of us knew the D was stacked in 2012; one thing that's clear is that Dave Wandsteadt was even more clueless than I thought.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki said:
they won 3 road games they could/should have lost this year.

Chicago

Detroit

Minnesota

they lost at least 2 home games they could/should have won this year:

Houston

Kansas City

I want to see them make the playoffs as much as anybody, but it's tough to go from bottom-feeder to contender overnight.

it's not like this is the only chance they will have to be good. they are building towards something, and now have stable wealthy ownership in place. I think they have a competent front office as well. still undecided on Marrone, but he's not a disaster like some of the previous guys they've had.

I see a lot of positives with this team, yet everything I read here and elsewhere tends to focus on the negative.
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FYI, Houston was a road game.

 
dhockster said:
FYI, Houston was a road game.
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thanks. my mistake. I was just getting the feeling they are blowing games they should win at home and winning games they normally would lose on the road.

the Chargers game was actually winnable, but they were clearly outplayed in that one. could maybe say the same of the Patriots game, but they aren't at that level yet.

in any event, if they get to 9 wins, I'd call the year a success. 8 wins is going to be a little disappointing but not a disaster like some are making it out to be.

they traded away next year's first because they thought Sammy Watkins was the best player in the draft. You don't make a move like that just for one year. They think he can be a true difference maker on offense, and based on what we've seen of him, I'd say they were probably correct.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Yeah, I don't get the criticism of Orton. He's not an elite QB who will singlehandedly win games for you, but nobody ever said he was. He's no worse than many of the current starters for teams in playoff contention, e.g. KC, PHI, ARI, MIA, CLE.
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I view Orton as a slightly better version of Fitzpatrick. He'll make just enough throws to keep you in games - and win a couple of them - but he won't throw as many backbreaking interceptions that were Pickpatrick's specialty.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
dhockster said:
FYI, Houston was a road game.
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thanks. my mistake. I was just getting the feeling they are blowing games they should win at home and winning games they normally would lose on the road.

the Chargers game was actually winnable, but they were clearly outplayed in that one. could maybe say the same of the Patriots game, but they aren't at that level yet.

in any event, if they get to 9 wins, I'd call the year a success. 8 wins is going to be a little disappointing but not a disaster like some are making it out to be.

they traded away next year's first because they thought Sammy Watkins was the best player in the draft. You don't make a move like that just for one year. They think he can be a true difference maker on offense, and based on what we've seen of him, I'd say they were probably correct.
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I think if you polled most fans in this thread before Week 1 whether they would be happy to see the team at 8-8 or better this year, the majority would side with "Yes." I guess everyone got their expectations up after pulling out some tight victories against some questionable teams in the first half of the schedule.

In re Watkins, I think the trade still looks good so far. He's had a critical impact on at least 3 of their 5 victories so far... while battling through injuries for most of those games. Without Watkins, the Bills don't beat Detroit and likely not Minnesota (they were beating the Jets and Dolphins regardless and he wasn't a factor against Chicago). I'm not sure if there was any other player in this draft that could have had that kind of impact for this team. So, from that perspective, 5-4 with Watkins and still a shot at the playoffs in mid-November is a lot better than 3-6 without Watkins and planning for next year's first round savior.

 
Don't want to get too hung up on it 'cause who doesn't love Sammy but "Savior" is such a condescending word as if everyone's assuming we'd end up with Andrew Luck. It's a 1st Rd pick, it's valuable. And you're assuming Odell Beckham would've had zero impact for us.

 
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I played a claw machine in K-Mart yesterday. There was this nice Buffalo Bills stuffed Bear on top. I tried to get it. The claw grabbed it, picked it up, inched towards the little drop zone, and he came loose just before he made it in. Sat there right by the hole. I pumped another 4 bucks in that thing trying to just tip him in, inch him over the hole. He just kept moving farther and farther away.

This is the Buffalo Bills.

 
I didn't trash Orton. He is what he is. I just pointed out the reality that to truly be a contender year in and year out, the NFL now requires a stud QB, something Orton just isn't.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
I don't know how you can trash Orton. He had one bad game, but is 3-2 as a starter with 2 late game-winning drives in those 3 wins. He's a Bryce Brown or McKelvin fumble away from being 4-1 right now with no running game, a banged up rookie #1 WR, and a sieve for an offensive line.

Panthers fans aren't feeling too great about their elite young QB right now. Their defense from last year was about as good as it gets and this year they can't stop many people.
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He shouldn't be trashed, but he is who he is (which is not a franchise QB).
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with this defense and an average running game, they don't need an elite QB.

only so many of those "franchise" QBs to go around.
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Well, they don't have an average running game either, and I didn't say they needed an elite QB.

No doubt there are only so many of those "franchise" QBs to go around. Too bad they passed on one a couple of years ago.
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I know, but you don't throw out Orton because the running game and line suck. He's good enough to win with if you have a strong team around him.

I'm mainly replying to the post from Grove. Bills beat the Dolphins on Thursday and they are still alive for the playoffs.

I don't get all this doom and gloom from most Bills fans. Yes, the loss sucked but this team is still getting better.
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Seriously? What are you, new to the Bills or something?

 
rocketsauce said:
I played a claw machine in K-Mart yesterday. There was this nice Buffalo Bills stuffed Bear on top. I tried to get it. The claw grabbed it, picked it up, inched towards the little drop zone, and he came loose just before he made it in. Sat there right by the hole. I pumped another 4 bucks in that thing trying to just tip him in, inch him over the hole. He just kept moving farther and farther away.

This is the Buffalo Bills.
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:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

 
flysack said:
Seriously? What are you, new to the Bills or something?
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I choose to believe that all this losing and pain builds character and will make the eventual Super Bowl win that much sweeter.

I believe in Terry Pegula

 
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rocketsauce said:
I played a claw machine in K-Mart yesterday. There was this nice Buffalo Bills stuffed Bear on top. I tried to get it. The claw grabbed it, picked it up, inched towards the little drop zone, and he came loose just before he made it in. Sat there right by the hole. I pumped another 4 bucks in that thing trying to just tip him in, inch him over the hole. He just kept moving farther and farther away.

This is the Buffalo Bills.
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:lmao:

 
I think this comes down to perspective- Aaron seems to be focusing mostly on this season, and there's no doubt this team is improved. Others seem to be more focused on the next few years, and it isn't easy to be overly optimistic about it when you still have mediocre (at best) QB play (and to a lesser extent coaching). The defense is great, but it's going to be difficult to keep it together. Even if they can, it all comes down to the QB position.

IMO, fans would be much more optimistic about the future if EJ had shown a decent amount of progress this year, even if it meant fewer W's in the short term.

 
humpback said:
I think this comes down to perspective- Aaron seems to be focusing mostly on this season, and there's no doubt this team is improved. Others seem to be more focused on the next few years, and it isn't easy to be overly optimistic about it when you still have mediocre (at best) QB play (and to a lesser extent coaching). The defense is great, but it's going to be difficult to keep it together. Even if they can, it all comes down to the QB position.

IMO, fans would be much more optimistic about the future if EJ had shown a decent amount of progress this year, even if it meant fewer W's in the short term.
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I still think there's a good chance EJ comes back and plays better after sitting for a little bit. Not sure why people wrote him off because he wasn't a finished product early in year 2. Takes time for QBs to develop and learn how to read defenses. Sure, the accuracy concerns may not go away but some of that could be driven by a lack of confidence, slow decision making, etc.

Also, good players can be found in the draft after round 1. Bills can also make trades and find players in free agency. Seems weird to write off the team for the next few years at this point.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
I think this comes down to perspective- Aaron seems to be focusing mostly on this season, and there's no doubt this team is improved. Others seem to be more focused on the next few years, and it isn't easy to be overly optimistic about it when you still have mediocre (at best) QB play (and to a lesser extent coaching). The defense is great, but it's going to be difficult to keep it together. Even if they can, it all comes down to the QB position.

IMO, fans would be much more optimistic about the future if EJ had shown a decent amount of progress this year, even if it meant fewer W's in the short term.
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I still think there's a good chance EJ comes back and plays better after sitting for a little bit. Not sure why people wrote him off because he wasn't a finished product early in year 2.
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I don't see him ever being accurate enough to be worthy of being a starter. He may improve a bit in a lot of areas - maybe even accuracy - but he needs to improve his accuracy A LOT, and that just doesn't normally happen.

 
not sure why some of you guys watch this team, honestly. seems like they won't ever be good enough in your eyes until they get the next Jim Kelly under center.

 
Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
I think this comes down to perspective- Aaron seems to be focusing mostly on this season, and there's no doubt this team is improved. Others seem to be more focused on the next few years, and it isn't easy to be overly optimistic about it when you still have mediocre (at best) QB play (and to a lesser extent coaching). The defense is great, but it's going to be difficult to keep it together. Even if they can, it all comes down to the QB position.

IMO, fans would be much more optimistic about the future if EJ had shown a decent amount of progress this year, even if it meant fewer W's in the short term.
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I still think there's a good chance EJ comes back and plays better after sitting for a little bit. Not sure why people wrote him off because he wasn't a finished product early in year 2. Takes time for QBs to develop and learn how to read defenses. Sure, the accuracy concerns may not go away but some of that could be driven by a lack of confidence, slow decision making, etc.

Also, good players can be found in the draft after round 1. Bills can also make trades and find players in free agency. Seems weird to write off the team for the next few years at this point.
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Any chance you can stop with the straw men? I'm not writing off EJ or the team for the next few years.

EJ hasn't shown improvement on many of the same fundamental flaws which made him a huge reach in the first place, so while it's certainly possible he can come back and play better, it doesn't seem extremely likely. In any event, he would have to make pretty big improvements just to get to Orton's level, which isn't good enough IMO.

Again, no one is writing them off for the next few years by any stretch, but I'll point out that obviously it's easier to find good players when you have more and earlier draft picks. You can't possibly disagree with that, can you? Yes, they can make trades and find players in free agency, just like they can lose players in free agency (and they have a few key ones coming up).

I admire the optimism to a degree, but you must have been living under a rock if you can't understand how some don't share in it.

 
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
I think this comes down to perspective- Aaron seems to be focusing mostly on this season, and there's no doubt this team is improved. Others seem to be more focused on the next few years, and it isn't easy to be overly optimistic about it when you still have mediocre (at best) QB play (and to a lesser extent coaching). The defense is great, but it's going to be difficult to keep it together. Even if they can, it all comes down to the QB position.

IMO, fans would be much more optimistic about the future if EJ had shown a decent amount of progress this year, even if it meant fewer W's in the short term.
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I still think there's a good chance EJ comes back and plays better after sitting for a little bit. Not sure why people wrote him off because he wasn't a finished product early in year 2. Takes time for QBs to develop and learn how to read defenses. Sure, the accuracy concerns may not go away but some of that could be driven by a lack of confidence, slow decision making, etc.

Also, good players can be found in the draft after round 1. Bills can also make trades and find players in free agency. Seems weird to write off the team for the next few years at this point.
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Any chance you can stop with the straw men? I'm not writing off EJ or the team for the next few years.

EJ hasn't shown improvement on many of the same fundamental flaws which made him a huge reach in the first place, so while it's certainly possible he can come back and play better, it doesn't seem extremely likely. In any event, he would have to make pretty big improvements just to get to Orton's level, which isn't good enough IMO.

Again, no one is writing them off for the next few years by any stretch, but I'll point out that obviously it's easier to find good players when you have more and earlier draft picks. You can't possibly disagree with that, can you? Yes, they can make trades and find players in free agency, just like they can lose players in free agency (and they have a few key ones coming up).

I admire the optimism to a degree, but you must have been living under a rock if you can't understand how some don't share in it.
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everything I read in here just talks about how doomed the team is and how terrible their long-term outlook is at QB.

how is that a strawman?

Others seem to be more focused on the next few years, and it isn't easy to be overly optimistic about it when you still have mediocre (at best) QB play (and to a lesser extent coaching). The defense is great, but it's going to be difficult to keep it together. Even if they can, it all comes down to the QB position.
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QB = mediocre at best

Defense - difficult to keep together, but it won't matter b/c the QB sucks

sounds to me like you see no chance for success. maybe I'm not seeing all the rational discussion in there.

I'm not nearly as optimistic as I seem in here, but that's only because everyone else seems to be completely certain that failure and disappointment is around every corner. Bills fans are a beaten down bunch for sure.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki said:
not sure why some of you guys watch this team, honestly. seems like they won't ever be good enough in your eyes until they get the next Jim Kelly under center.
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They don't need another Jim Kelly for me to be happy. I'm quite happy with Orton and the team/talent they have now. (A little better at QB, OL would be nice, but I'm happy.) The fact that they have playoff-team talent is exactly why I am so frustrated with a couple of these games slipping away this year.

 
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Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
Aaron Rudnicki said:
humpback said:
I think this comes down to perspective- Aaron seems to be focusing mostly on this season, and there's no doubt this team is improved. Others seem to be more focused on the next few years, and it isn't easy to be overly optimistic about it when you still have mediocre (at best) QB play (and to a lesser extent coaching). The defense is great, but it's going to be difficult to keep it together. Even if they can, it all comes down to the QB position.

IMO, fans would be much more optimistic about the future if EJ had shown a decent amount of progress this year, even if it meant fewer W's in the short term.
Click to expand...
I still think there's a good chance EJ comes back and plays better after sitting for a little bit. Not sure why people wrote him off because he wasn't a finished product early in year 2. Takes time for QBs to develop and learn how to read defenses. Sure, the accuracy concerns may not go away but some of that could be driven by a lack of confidence, slow decision making, etc.

Also, good players can be found in the draft after round 1. Bills can also make trades and find players in free agency. Seems weird to write off the team for the next few years at this point.
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Any chance you can stop with the straw men? I'm not writing off EJ or the team for the next few years.

EJ hasn't shown improvement on many of the same fundamental flaws which made him a huge reach in the first place, so while it's certainly possible he can come back and play better, it doesn't seem extremely likely. In any event, he would have to make pretty big improvements just to get to Orton's level, which isn't good enough IMO.

Again, no one is writing them off for the next few years by any stretch, but I'll point out that obviously it's easier to find good players when you have more and earlier draft picks. You can't possibly disagree with that, can you? Yes, they can make trades and find players in free agency, just like they can lose players in free agency (and they have a few key ones coming up).

I admire the optimism to a degree, but you must have been living under a rock if you can't understand how some don't share in it.
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everything I read in here just talks about how doomed the team is and how terrible their long-term outlook is at QB.

how is that a strawman?

Others seem to be more focused on the next few years, and it isn't easy to be overly optimistic about it when you still have mediocre (at best) QB play (and to a lesser extent coaching). The defense is great, but it's going to be difficult to keep it together. Even if they can, it all comes down to the QB position.
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QB = mediocre at best

Defense - difficult to keep together, but it won't matter b/c the QB sucks

sounds to me like you see no chance for success. maybe I'm not seeing all the rational discussion in there.

I'm not nearly as optimistic as I seem in here, but that's only because everyone else seems to be completely certain that failure and disappointment is around every corner. Bills fans are a beaten down bunch for sure.
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It seems to me you aren't being objective here. Show me where I wrote them off for the next few years. Where I said they are doomed. Where their long term QB outlook is terrible. Where I see no chance for success. Where we need to get the next Jim Kelly. Etc. None of that happened, nothing but straw men.

I'm simply trying to be realistic- EJ Manuel has been a bust so far, and Kyle Orton is a career .500 QB who has never made the post-season. It doesn't make you a doom-and-gloomer to believe that their long-term outlook would be better if they had better prospects at the QB position. Sure, it's possible to get a franchise QB in the later rounds, or sign one in free agency, or that EJ makes a drastic turnaround, but why would anyone think that it's likely? What is that optimism based on?

There's a reason why Bills fans are a beaten down bunch- this team has beaten us down time and time again. Pessimism is the logical mindset, and it's been proven correct pretty much every single year. That being said, I agree that some are too down on them, and I'm not being nearly as pessimistic as you represent. I believe the Bills can be a .500 team with Orton, maybe even a little better and sneak into the playoffs. That's good depending on what your perspective is, but that isn't what the ultimate goal is (at least my ultimate goal). I would be much more optimistic if EJ had progressed this year but the team still went 6-10 than if they go 8-8 with Orton. That's fine if you disagree, but quit misrepresenting what I'm saying please.

 
Aaron Williams needs to stop running all over his instagram page saying they will win, I understand he's doing alot of backing on McMelvin's page but this is getting ridiculous. He hasn't done anything all year.

 
humpback said:
I'm simply trying to be realistic- EJ Manuel has been a bust so far, and Kyle Orton is a career .500 QB who has never made the post-season. It doesn't make you a doom-and-gloomer to believe that their long-term outlook would be better if they had better prospects at the QB position. Sure, it's possible to get a franchise QB in the later rounds, or sign one in free agency, or that EJ makes a drastic turnaround, but why would anyone think that it's likely? What is that optimism based on?

There's a reason why Bills fans are a beaten down bunch- this team has beaten us down time and time again. Pessimism is the logical mindset, and it's been proven correct pretty much every single year.
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:hifive:

 
Predictions for tonight? I'm not very optimistic (shocker, I know), if only for the fact that road teams do poorly on Thursday nights, and 3 days rest isn't a lot for Watkins/Jackson.

Miami 24, Buffalo 14

 
I'm sorta optimistic given Miami's injuries & Sammy listed probable is a good sign. Plus a win here would max out the torture/pain of last week's travesty, unlike a loss which would make it irrelevant (how's that for optimism, ha).

On the other hand, Tannehill can't be terrible & Wake a no-show vs. us their entire careers...can they?

 
Bills_Fan11 said:
I'm sorta optimistic given Miami's injuries & Sammy listed probable is a good sign. Plus a win here would max out the torture/pain of last week's travesty, unlike a loss which would make it irrelevant (how's that for optimism, ha).

On the other hand, Tannehill can't be terrible & Wake a no-show vs. us their entire careers...can they?
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Yea, this is what I'm worried about. That and while we spanked Miami at home, Miami has also spanked two teams that destroyed us: New England and San Diego.

It's going to be an interesting game. Definitely a season definer.

 
If we lose this game I believe our playoff chances are pretty much done. Our schedule the rest of the way is too difficult to pull out a wild card. Especially with a loss to the Chargers and Chiefs.

But I'm counting the games against the Broncos, Packers and Patriots as losses. Maybe we sneak one of those out, but we would need to beat the Jets, Browns and Raiders plus get a little lucky with other teams in the WC race to lose.

This is a tough year for us to finally be over .500 and hoping to get a WC spot. I mean, the whole AFC North has a better record than us.

 
Steve Tasker said:
Predictions for tonight? I'm not very optimistic (shocker, I know), if only for the fact that road teams do poorly on Thursday nights, and 3 days rest isn't a lot for Watkins/Jackson.

Miami 24, Buffalo 14
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I'm actually more optimistic going into this game than last week. I think the Bills have some really good veteran leadership, and I think that really helps in bounce-back games, and on the road, and on short weeks, and against division opponents. With Miami's injuries I think the Bills definitely have the talent advantage, too.

 
btw, All-22 Review from WGR for Chiefs game is up:

http://www.wgr550.com/JW-All-22-Review-Bills-Chiefs/20303695

Kraig Urbik's return has been huge. It's really hard to accept any explanation as to why Urbik hasn't been in the lineup. No explanation seems to make sense. Richardson was killing the line in pass protection, and was doing nothing in the run game. This week's game we saw Urbik making plays, and on the move.
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one of the things I really dislike about Marrone is how stubborn he tends to be at times. not sure what he had against Urbik but he clearly should have been in there early on.

 
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