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Jadeveon Clowney DE South Carolina

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Mike & Mike were discussing whether or not Clowney should sit out his Jr season at SC He is a true sophomore so he cannot enter the draft this year. He has been projected to be the #1 pick in the 2014 by someShould he sit out his Jr. season and not risk injury?

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If I were him, I would sue the NCAA for lost wages because of discrimination due to age.While 99% of football players need at least two years at the college level to develop, I think it's absurd to require them to subject themselves to that kind of injury risk if they are guaranteed a big payday at the NFL level.Major changes to rules take special cases like Clowney... and then for him to stand up and say "This is bullsh*t."

Edited by meyerj31

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This whole system is really screwed up, but there is no way he would sit out a season because of it.

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If I were him, I would sue the NCAA for lost wages because of discrimination due to age.While 99% of football players need at least two years at the college level to develop, I think it's absurd to require them to subject themselves to that kind of injury risk if they are guaranteed a big payday at the NFL level.Major changes to rules take special cases like Clowney... and then for him to stand up and say "This is bullsh*t."

Isn't this a NFL rule? I don't think the NCAA can didicate eligibility of the NFL draft.

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If I were him, I would sue the NCAA for lost wages because of discrimination due to age.While 99% of football players need at least two years at the college level to develop, I think it's absurd to require them to subject themselves to that kind of injury risk if they are guaranteed a big payday at the NFL level.Major changes to rules take special cases like Clowney... and then for him to stand up and say "This is bullsh*t."

Isn't this a NFL rule? I don't think the NCAA can didicate eligibility of the NFL draft.
Correct.

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If I were him, I would sue the NCAA for lost wages because of discrimination due to age.While 99% of football players need at least two years at the college level to develop, I think it's absurd to require them to subject themselves to that kind of injury risk if they are guaranteed a big payday at the NFL level.Major changes to rules take special cases like Clowney... and then for him to stand up and say "This is bullsh*t."

Isn't this a NFL rule? I don't think the NCAA can didicate eligibility of the NFL draft.
Correct.
If this is true...... YAHTZEE!!!!!!!!The NFL has a lot more money than the NCAA. I would think lawyers would be lining up out of the door to get a crack at this kind of litigation.I'm surprised this hasn't been challenged before... has it and I'm not aware?

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If I were him, I would sue the NCAA for lost wages because of discrimination due to age.While 99% of football players need at least two years at the college level to develop, I think it's absurd to require them to subject themselves to that kind of injury risk if they are guaranteed a big payday at the NFL level.Major changes to rules take special cases like Clowney... and then for him to stand up and say "This is bullsh*t."

Isn't this a NFL rule? I don't think the NCAA can didicate eligibility of the NFL draft.
Correct.
Last attempt was 2004; time to try again?In 2004, college football players Maurice Clarett and Mike Williams challenged the three years in college rule, saying it was illegal. The U.S. Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the NFL, and the Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

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If I were him, I would sue the NCAA for lost wages because of discrimination due to age.

While 99% of football players need at least two years at the college level to develop, I think it's absurd to require them to subject themselves to that kind of injury risk if they are guaranteed a big payday at the NFL level.

Major changes to rules take special cases like Clowney... and then for him to stand up and say "This is bullsh*t."

Isn't this a NFL rule? I don't think the NCAA can didicate eligibility of the NFL draft.
Correct.
Last attempt was 2004; time to try again?

In 2004, college football players Maurice Clarett and Mike Williams challenged the three years in college rule, saying it was illegal. The U.S. Court of Appeals ruled in favor of the NFL, and the Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

Yes!

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Can he take out an insurance policy?

Yes, but my understanding is the policy would only pay if he weren't drafted at all. So lets say he plays and has a horrible injury (like a Lattimore type), and falls from the 1st round to the 5th round....the policy wouldn't pay because he'd still be in the NFL. I mean, the horrible injury that Lattimore had isn't going to prevent him from being in the NFL....and that's pretty much a worst case injury....

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So the NFL changes the rule due to the threat of a lawsuit or the courts order it. This would allow at some point a kid that is within those first 3 years to go to the NFL. Now, that kid gets injured and sues the NFL because they didn't protect him and they put him in a dangerous situation because his body wasn't fully developed.It's a no win scenario for the league.

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Can he take out an insurance policy?

Yes, but my understanding is the policy would only pay if he weren't drafted at all. So lets say he plays and has a horrible injury (like a Lattimore type), and falls from the 1st round to the 5th round....the policy wouldn't pay because he'd still be in the NFL. I mean, the horrible injury that Lattimore had isn't going to prevent him from being in the NFL....and that's pretty much a worst case injury....
Bill Pollian confirmed this. The policy is only if he never plays again. Not if he goes from first round to 5-6th or something like that. He also indicated that GMs would question him not playing but look at Seattle taking Bruce Irving. I don't think Clowney would fall that far if he took the year off to train.

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Can he take out an insurance policy?

Yes, but my understanding is the policy would only pay if he weren't drafted at all. So lets say he plays and has a horrible injury (like a Lattimore type), and falls from the 1st round to the 5th round....the policy wouldn't pay because he'd still be in the NFL. I mean, the horrible injury that Lattimore had isn't going to prevent him from being in the NFL....and that's pretty much a worst case injury....
Bill Pollian confirmed this. The policy is only if he never plays again. Not if he goes from first round to 5-6th or something like that. He also indicated that GMs would question him not playing but look at Seattle taking Bruce Irving. I don't think Clowney would fall that far if he took the year off to train.
I'm sure there is an insurance company out there that would tailor a policy towards an individual like Clowney. There would perhaps be a substantial premium, but given the difference in money between a top 1st round selection and a 3rd, for example, if he were to get hurt, is pretty significant. Look at what Wilson is locked into the next two years ($400k/year? joke) compared to the $22 MILLION GUARANTEED contract that Andrew Luck signed.Even if Clowney had to pay a nearly $1M premium for that kind of insurance, it has to be a +EV move.FWIW I'm in the actuarial/insurance business ... Edited by meyerj31

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As a Clemson fan, it's time to fight the NFL on this! Do it, Jadeveon!!Seriously though, easily the #1 pick next year if he did sit out. He'd be 1st overall this year and honestly probably would have gone top 10 last year.

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Mike & Mike were discussing whether or not Clowney should sit out his Jr season at SC

He is a true sophomore so he cannot enter the draft this year.

He has been projected to be the #1 pick in the 2014 by some

Should he sit out his Jr. season and not risk injury?

Must have been reading from the First Take script.

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Can he take out an insurance policy?

Yes, but my understanding is the policy would only pay if he weren't drafted at all. So lets say he plays and has a horrible injury (like a Lattimore type), and falls from the 1st round to the 5th round....the policy wouldn't pay because he'd still be in the NFL. I mean, the horrible injury that Lattimore had isn't going to prevent him from being in the NFL....and that's pretty much a worst case injury....
Bill Pollian confirmed this. The policy is only if he never plays again. Not if he goes from first round to 5-6th or something like that. He also indicated that GMs would question him not playing but look at Seattle taking Bruce Irving. I don't think Clowney would fall that far if he took the year off to train.
I'm sure there is an insurance company out there that would tailor a policy towards an individual like Clowney. There would perhaps be a substantial premium, but given the difference in money between a top 1st round selection and a 3rd, for example, if he were to get hurt, is pretty significant. Look at what Wilson is locked into the next two years ($400k/year? joke) compared to the $22 MILLION GUARANTEED contract that Andrew Luck signed.Even if Clowney had to pay a nearly $1M premium for that kind of insurance, it has to be a +EV move.FWIW I'm in the actuarial/insurance business ...
Where would Clowney get the cash to pay that premium? I would assume he can't borrow against future earnings while still in college without it being a violation.

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Mike & Mike were discussing whether or not Clowney should sit out his Jr season at SC

He is a true sophomore so he cannot enter the draft this year.

He has been projected to be the #1 pick in the 2014 by some

Should he sit out his Jr. season and not risk injury?

Must have been reading from the First Take script.
Or the Charlotte Observer

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FWIW I'm in the actuarial/insurance business ...

As am I, which is making me think that the premium amount they come up with will make it prohibitively expensive for him. Just from your example above you see the clear difference between #1 pick money and 2-3rd round pick money. Lets just say there is a 10% chance of an injury dropping his draft stock (which I'd say is about correct, roughly 3 guys a year "drop" out of the first round due to injuries) - we might be looking at a few million dollar premium.

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Where would Clowney get the cash to pay that premium? I would assume he can't borrow against future earnings while still in college without it being a violation.

A violation of what/who? If he's not playing in college, how could it be an NCAA violation? Also, if he's willing to drop off the team, he's likely willing to drop out of college all together for this.

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FWIW I'm in the actuarial/insurance business ...

As am I, which is making me think that the premium amount they come up with will make it prohibitively expensive for him. Just from your example above you see the clear difference between #1 pick money and 2-3rd round pick money. Lets just say there is a 10% chance of an injury dropping his draft stock (which I'd say is about correct, roughly 3 guys a year "drop" out of the first round due to injuries) - we might be looking at a few million dollar premium.
I assumed there could be some sort of deal worked out to conditionally pay the premium if the injury doesn't happen, given that without injury he will be a top pick even without a golden senior season. Perhaps that kind of conditional arrangement is a violation of NCAA rules, though.

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This whole system is really screwed up, but there is no way he would sit out a season because of it.

How is the system screwed?
Because these guys have to spend 3 years making millions of dollars for other institutions before they get paid themselves.

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As a Clemson fan, it's time to fight the NFL on this! Do it, Jadeveon!!Seriously though, easily the #1 pick next year if he did sit out. He'd be 1st overall this year and honestly probably would have gone top 10 last year.

I'm sure he is looking forward to padding his Heisman case with a few more sacks of Boyd. :boxing:

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Where would Clowney get the cash to pay that premium? I would assume he can't borrow against future earnings while still in college without it being a violation.

A violation of what/who? If he's not playing in college, how could it be an NCAA violation? Also, if he's willing to drop off the team, he's likely willing to drop out of college all together for this.
I assumed we were talking about him playing but being able to take out a policy against being a top pick vs a lower round pick.

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This whole system is really screwed up, but there is no way he would sit out a season because of it.

How is the system screwed?
Because these guys have to spend 3 years making millions of dollars for other institutions before they get paid themselves.
so you think a high school kid should be able to go straight to the NFL?

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This whole system is really screwed up, but there is no way he would sit out a season because of it.

How is the system screwed?
Because these guys have to spend 3 years making millions of dollars for other institutions before they get paid themselves.
Its an NFL rule. And whats the beef on a league having a requirement.Dont most companies have requirements (like degrees) for employment?

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This whole system is really screwed up, but there is no way he would sit out a season because of it.

How is the system screwed?
Because these guys have to spend 3 years making millions of dollars for other institutions before they get paid themselves.
so you think a high school kid should be able to go straight to the NFL?
Absolutely.

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This whole system is really screwed up, but there is no way he would sit out a season because of it.

How is the system screwed?
Because these guys have to spend 3 years making millions of dollars for other institutions before they get paid themselves.
Its an NFL rule. And whats the beef on a league having a requirement.Dont most companies have requirements (like degrees) for employment?
Isn't the NFL the only major sport to have such a requirement? This is just another measure to give the actual football players a smaller piece of the pie.

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No...the nba has a requirement too.And it does not change what size of the pie players get at all.

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This whole system is really screwed up, but there is no way he would sit out a season because of it.

How is the system screwed?
Because these guys have to spend 3 years making millions of dollars for other institutions before they get paid themselves.
so you think a high school kid should be able to go straight to the NFL?
Absolutely.
and we are done here

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No...the nba has a requirement too.And it does not change what size of the pie players get at all.

Yes, I now see that the NBA changed it recently which is very silly. It makes zero sense to say Lebron or Kobe needed to spend a year in college before going pro. Of course it changes the size they get. They have to play without getting paid for a set number of years. It is just a way for the owners and player unions to limit competition. At the same time, colleges and affiliated organizations (NCAA, ESPN, and EA) make a killing off of these atheletes.

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This whole system is really screwed up, but there is no way he would sit out a season because of it.

How is the system screwed?
Because these guys have to spend 3 years making millions of dollars for other institutions before they get paid themselves.
so you think a high school kid should be able to go straight to the NFL?
Absolutely.
and we are done here
:lol:

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No...the nba has a requirement too.And it does not change what size of the pie players get at all.

Yes, I now see that the NBA changed it recently which is very silly. It makes zero sense to say Lebron or Kobe needed to spend a year in college before going pro. Of course it changes the size they get. They have to play without getting paid for a set number of years. It is just a way for the owners and player unions to limit competition. At the same time, colleges and affiliated organizations (NCAA, ESPN, and EA) make a killing off of these atheletes.
You don't think educating young men is important? Or just give them a ton of $$$ and watch them continually go bankrupt.

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This whole system is really screwed up, but there is no way he would sit out a season because of it.

How is the system screwed?
Because these guys have to spend 3 years making millions of dollars for other institutions before they get paid themselves.
Its an NFL rule. And whats the beef on a league having a requirement.Dont most companies have requirements (like degrees) for employment?
Isn't the NFL the only major sport to have such a requirement? This is just another measure to give the actual football players a smaller piece of the pie.
No. The NBA has a minimum age. MLB will let you turn pro out of high school but there is a rule if you attend one class in college you cannot be redrafted again for 3 years.

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No...the nba has a requirement too.

And it does not change what size of the pie players get at all.

Yes, I now see that the NBA changed it recently which is very silly. It makes zero sense to say Lebron or Kobe needed to spend a year in college before going pro.

Of course it changes the size they get. They have to play without getting paid for a set number of years. It is just a way for the owners and player unions to limit competition. At the same time, colleges and affiliated organizations (NCAA, ESPN, and EA) make a killing off of these atheletes.

You don't think educating young men is important? Or just give them a ton of $$$ and watch them continually go bankrupt.
Right, because that hasn't been happening under the current system? I don't think these guys are really getting an education at school, at least at the caliber of player that could go pro.

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I'd say why not; if he is guaranteed to be a top-5 pick in 2014, drop out of school, spend the next year working every day like you already are a pro-football player (workouts, semi-professional coaching...) The downside is he might be looked at by some teams as selfish, but the upside is he could probably come into the league in better shape, as good, if not better technique wise and limiting his risk of injury.I think the 3 year rule is to keep the college game popular. Look at College Basketball. If every great player was getting drafted after their freshman season or straight out of HS, the college game would suffer immensely.In most cases, taking a year off to minimize the risk of injury and workout on your own probably kills your stock. This might be one of those rare cases it makes sense.

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No...the nba has a requirement too.

And it does not change what size of the pie players get at all.

Yes, I now see that the NBA changed it recently which is very silly. It makes zero sense to say Lebron or Kobe needed to spend a year in college before going pro.

Of course it changes the size they get. They have to play without getting paid for a set number of years. It is just a way for the owners and player unions to limit competition. At the same time, colleges and affiliated organizations (NCAA, ESPN, and EA) make a killing off of these atheletes.

You don't think educating young men is important? Or just give them a ton of $$$ and watch them continually go bankrupt.
Right, because that hasn't been happening under the current system? I don't think these guys are really getting an education at school, at least at the caliber of player that could go pro.
Meaning you see it improving by giving younger men money? Or do you simply not care about the betterment of these players as long as the product in the NFL is the bottom line?

I see too many players declaring too early and dropping out of the league.

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The difference with Clowney is that even if he blew out his knee this year, he would likely still go in the top 5 considering his talent level and the recovery time for these injuries now. It's a different situation than Lattimore who tore his knee up twice, and is also at a position that is considered much more replaceable in the NFL. Dominant pass rushers don't grow on trees, and they're the types of guys who get drafted high along with QBs and LTs.

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No...the nba has a requirement too.

And it does not change what size of the pie players get at all.

Yes, I now see that the NBA changed it recently which is very silly. It makes zero sense to say Lebron or Kobe needed to spend a year in college before going pro.

Of course it changes the size they get. They have to play without getting paid for a set number of years. It is just a way for the owners and player unions to limit competition. At the same time, colleges and affiliated organizations (NCAA, ESPN, and EA) make a killing off of these atheletes.

You don't think educating young men is important? Or just give them a ton of $$$ and watch them continually go bankrupt.
Right, because that hasn't been happening under the current system? I don't think these guys are really getting an education at school, at least at the caliber of player that could go pro.
Meaning you see it improving by giving younger men money? Or do you simply not care about the betterment of these players as long as the product in the NFL is the bottom line?

I see too many players declaring too early and dropping out of the league.

I don't think it is my place to determine what is best for other people, I want them to be able to make their own choices.

In any case, I don't agree that college is really about betterment or education anymore in the first place. That is a different discussion though.

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I don't think it is my place to determine what is best for other people, I want them to be able to make their own choices. In any case, I don't agree that college is really about betterment or education anymore in the first place. That is a different discussion though.

I could honestly care less about this issue and if the NFL decided to change it I wouldn't mind. I happen to like it the way it is because it makes college football more entertaining IMO, but it wouldn't break my heart.Regardless of that, you feel poeple should have the ability to choose what is best for them. Why does that same logic not apply to the NFL? Why do they not get the ability to choose what is best for their organization? It seems they simply feel this is what is best for the NFL. While this contradicts you're view on the rule, it supports you're opinion of the right to choose. Edited by jurb26

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I don't think it is my place to determine what is best for other people, I want them to be able to make their own choices. In any case, I don't agree that college is really about betterment or education anymore in the first place. That is a different discussion though.

I could honestly care less about this issue and if the NFL decided to change it I wouldn't mind. I happen to like it the way it is because it makes college football more entertaining IMO, but it wouldn't break my heart.Regardless of that, you feel poeple should have the ability to choose what is best for them. Why does that same logic not apply to the NFL? Why do they not get the ability to choose what is best for their organization? It seems they simply fell this is what is best for the NFL. While this contradicts you're view on the rule, it supports you're opinion of the right to choose.
Good point. I'd say the key distinction is that freedom to choose one's actions is not absolute; when your choices harm others they should be limited. I don't expect the NFL to change it or not act in their self-interest. This would have to come from outside pressure in society or courts, neither of which agrees with my assumption that there is harm being done here. Yet.

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Can he take out an insurance policy?

Yes, but my understanding is the policy would only pay if he weren't drafted at all. So lets say he plays and has a horrible injury (like a Lattimore type), and falls from the 1st round to the 5th round....the policy wouldn't pay because he'd still be in the NFL. I mean, the horrible injury that Lattimore had isn't going to prevent him from being in the NFL....and that's pretty much a worst case injury....
Bill Pollian confirmed this. The policy is only if he never plays again. Not if he goes from first round to 5-6th or something like that. He also indicated that GMs would question him not playing but look at Seattle taking Bruce Irving. I don't think Clowney would fall that far if he took the year off to train.
I'm sure there is an insurance company out there that would tailor a policy towards an individual like Clowney. There would perhaps be a substantial premium, but given the difference in money between a top 1st round selection and a 3rd, for example, if he were to get hurt, is pretty significant. Look at what Wilson is locked into the next two years ($400k/year? joke) compared to the $22 MILLION GUARANTEED contract that Andrew Luck signed.Even if Clowney had to pay a nearly $1M premium for that kind of insurance, it has to be a +EV move.FWIW I'm in the actuarial/insurance business ...
+EV move? :rolleyes: Yeah, insurance businesses are in the business of giving out more money than they take in for the long run.

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I don't think it is my place to determine what is best for other people, I want them to be able to make their own choices. In any case, I don't agree that college is really about betterment or education anymore in the first place. That is a different discussion though.

I could honestly care less about this issue and if the NFL decided to change it I wouldn't mind. I happen to like it the way it is because it makes college football more entertaining IMO, but it wouldn't break my heart.Regardless of that, you feel poeple should have the ability to choose what is best for them. Why does that same logic not apply to the NFL? Why do they not get the ability to choose what is best for their organization? It seems they simply fell this is what is best for the NFL. While this contradicts you're view on the rule, it supports you're opinion of the right to choose.
Good point. I'd say the key distinction is that freedom to choose one's actions is not absolute; when your choices harm others they should be limited. I don't expect the NFL to change it or not act in their self-interest. This would have to come from outside pressure in society or courts, neither of which agrees with my assumption that there is harm being done here. Yet.
I'd say that the difference is that the NFL is in a position to exercise monopoly power over professional football, and the teams-which are separate corporations- are permitted to collude when it comes to labor rules. Mostly that's good because without it there would be no salary cap or draft, among other problems, but here it creates an incredibly unfair result. The freedom to choose should belong to the individual teams- who obviously would sign Clowney in a heartbeat if they could- but they're not free to act because the only way to play in the NFL is to sign on to the collusion.The other issue is that only existing employees are negotiating the CBA. Their interest is in protecting themselves at the expense of the next generation. Every roster spot taken by a Clowney is a roster spot lost for a vet. You see this problem in all the major sports. Edited by TobiasFunke

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No...the nba has a requirement too.And it does not change what size of the pie players get at all.

Yes, I now see that the NBA changed it recently which is very silly. It makes zero sense to say Lebron or Kobe needed to spend a year in college before going pro. Of course it changes the size they get. They have to play without getting paid for a set number of years. It is just a way for the owners and player unions to limit competition. At the same time, colleges and affiliated organizations (NCAA, ESPN, and EA) make a killing off of these atheletes.
You don't think educating young men is important? Or just give them a ton of $$$ and watch them continually go bankrupt.
Don't give me that B.S. about education. The world has enough general studies and parks and tourism management people out there already. I don't care either way about the nfl rule - I actually like it for my own selfish reasons of enjoying college football. That said, I can buy the "kids aren't ready to jump from HS to the NFL arguement," but the education argument doesn't hold any water for me. Attending college and receiving an education are two separate things.My favorite recent quote on this came from Ohio State's QB Cardale Jones who so eloquently stated "we ain't come to play school."

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I could see the 3 year rule possibly changing in the near future. Part of the reason it exists is to protect teams from drafting kids too early who aren't ready to be in the league which leads to them struggling and not being worth the enormous financial investment. When your top 5 picks busted, it really crippled the franchise from a cap perspective, not to mention the loss of the asset. But with tens of millions less being committed to some of these guys, you have more room for error and can be a bit more speculative. The other reason it exists is so the NFL can protect the NCAA, its free minor league system. If all of a sudden a bunch of QBs, RBs, and other skill players were leaving even earlier for the NFL, it would seriously impact the quality of college football as others have mentioned. Those guys not being around means worse ratings and fewer dollars. I'm saying this halfheartedly, but I wish there was a "wink wink" deal among the people in NFL offices where players could petition for early entry, and if they aren't a marketable star (read: offensive skill positions, becuase yes I don't think Clowney really fits that) the NFL waves them in. Guys like Clowney and maybe some interior linemen. When an Andrew Luck comes around, they make up some kind of bull#### excuse as to why he's not ready.

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In any case, I don't agree that college is really about betterment or education anymore in the first place. That is a different discussion though.

I'll bite. What is college about?

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