roadkill1292
Footballguy
I'm not accustomed to someone else carrying the ball in the crusade against the league's monopolistic labor practices. I need to step up my game.I hope Clowney wrecks the whole rotten system.
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Jadeveon Clowney DE South Carolina (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Yenrub
- Start date
EBF
Footballguy
Absolutely. There is no (good) reason why a guy like Clowney should be stuck in college when he's clearly ready for the NFL. In pro soccer there are guys like Cesc Fabregas and Jack Wilshere who were playing at the highest professional level at 16-17 years old. NFL football is a different beast because strength is so important, but when you're ready, you're ready. Guys like Trent Richardson, DJ Williams, and Clowney were physically ready for the next level from the moment they stepped on a college campus. Forcing them to risk injury for no pay when they could be collecting NFL paychecks is messed up. It's a shame that Clarett/BMW got torpedoed in their attempt to set things right.
Ace Matherton
Footballguy
So he's going to use what money to live on when he drops out of school for a year? Who is paying his professional coaching expenses he would need to stay in top shape since he will not see a football field for 15 months?Ridiculousness thinking in any way it would be a good idea to drop out of school and not play for a year.
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EBF
Footballguy
For a top prospect like him, I'm sure a sports agency would be willing to sign him and front all of his living/training expenses for a year. Probably wouldn't cost them much more than 50-100k. That's one endorsement check from Nike. And his first contract will be worth what? $30 million? That's a good investment.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Every agent in the world would pay this kid for a year. They probably already are.
I mainly buy the signaling model of education laid out here and here by Professor Caplan.Key passage:
At this point, you may be thinking: If professors don't teach a lot of job skills, don't teach their students how to think, and don't instill constructive work habits, why do employers so heavily reward educational success? The best answer comes straight out of the ivory tower itself. It's called the signaling model of education - the subject of my book in progress, The Case Against Education.
According to the signaling model, employers reward educational success because of what it shows ("signals") about the student. Good students tend to be smart, hard-working, and conformist - three crucial traits for almost any job. When a student excels in school, then, employers correctly infer that he's likely to be a good worker. What precisely did he study? What did he learn how to do? Mere details. As long as you were a good student, employers surmise that you'll quickly learn what you need to know on the job.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Like all pioneers, they were considered quite the villains in their own worlds. To this day, Clarett is held in contempt by many on this board. Marvin Miller is blackballed from the baseball HOF because he dared to suggest that players not be bound in perpetuity to one team. First, players should take aim at the age rule. Next, that damnable rookie salary cap. And then, finally, the Unholy Grail -- dumping that draft. The league has had its one-potato, two-potato way for far too long.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Not the answer I was expecting. Well done.
So you support the NFL's choice about its eligibility rules.
that whole freedom liberty pursuit of happiness thing that supposedly exists
lol nice. might do some insurance business with this guy+EV move?Yeah, insurance businesses are in the business of giving out more money than they take in for the long run.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Dammit, Christo has finished his b&m work for the day. You should be on our side here, big guy.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Nice conspiracy theory.But actual players in the NFL still get paid...the owners are not keeping some money supposedly allotted to the players you want allowed in.Whine about college rules on paying players (that I don't see changing anytime soon)...but it has nothing to do with this rule.
Yenrub
Footballguy
Drew Rosenhausnext question
GregR
Footballguy
I think the current system:a) is good for fans of football because it creates a second league (NCAA) that has all the best talent in it, playing against similarly matured players.b) is good for the NFL because they don't have to stick players on a developmental squad because they aren't physically mature enough to play yet, but who they have to grab early or lose any chance at.c) is good for NCAA schools, especially the larger ones, as they earn back the cost of a football program, plus some in many cases. If nothing else, if a school planned to have football and has similar costs just to run a team, then the extra money made by having better caliber of play is a net win.d) is probably good for the majority of football players for a number of reasons. Most are not ready to step into the NFL after high school, and so it provides them with an opportunity to develop when I suspect many would make a poor choice and go to the NFL before they are ready. It gives them a chance at a fully funded degree which will be there to fall back on either after their pro football career, or if they never make it to a pro football career. And finally it gives them a level of local fame where they played college ball... fame that can be built upon in a non-football career, and fame that wouldn't have been there if they'd jumped straight to the NFL and failed. Many former players seem to go into insurance, I believe in large part because it is an industry where their name recognition can serve them well. In short, I think the majority of players are probably better off with the current system.e) is not good for the elite, upper echelon of players who could have made the jump to the NFL at a younger age than present, and made more money in the long run.f) debatable whether it's good or bad for the players who suffer a college injury and never get to a pro career. Yes it is worse for a specific player who suffered an injury. But as I doubt injury rate is less in the NFL, if it was changed, I imagine some other player who didn't get injured in college might have suffered an injury in the pros right away. And I'm not sure the money they'd make as a young pro would offset the gains they would have lost (education, local fame) by not playing in college, either. Calling it a wash for now.So overall I think the current system results in something that is better off for most people. But I'd agree the impact it has on those top players who could go to the NFL early goes against a lot of our nation's other principles.
+EV was the wrong term ... "worth the premium" for Clowney would be putting it better (to guarantee a big payday either way), while being "+EV" for the insurance company.Though the amount of money would have to be set in a way that it's significantly more valuable for him to not intentionally tank his draft status just to get a free check. If the face amount of the policy was around $5M then it might be possible... with a conditional premium of an amount to be paid after being drafted around $500,000."+EV" for the insurance company in that he certainly doesn't have a 10% chance of getting significantly injured ... and if he isn't injured he'll be a 1st round pick, which is worth nearly $5M guaranteed (see David Wilson contract, low first round pick last year...), let alone $500,000 to pay back . Seems like a win for both parties, but that's a 30-second analysis and it's likely much more complicated due to NCAA rules and other unknowns.lol nice. might do some insurance business with this guy+EV move?
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TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Mostly good points, but I don't buy this one. I strongly disagree that it's a wash- millions of dollars is WAY more valuable than "education," and fame is fame, regardless of where it happens. I assure you, if NFL rookies want to nail hot college-aged girls, it's not really a problem.More importantly, though, what you and I might conclude about whether the money is better than the education/"local fame" is irrelevant. What's sacrificed under the rule even more than the lost income if the player gets hurt before they get a chance to leave college and cash in is the player and their family's right to make that decision for themselves.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I appreciate the thoughtfulness of this post and am glad that you acknowledge that there are other principles at stake. But I'm a little discomfited by the way you see those principles having a price and a fairly low one at that.Surely, there is a system waiting to be developed that will serve the needs of competitiveness and prosperity without sacrificing the basic rights of others.
flc735
Footballguy
first, yes. most people in his situation have insurance (or at least they should). even the lesser players that are due to make the league minimum should take out insurance. you can get insured against anything. the nfl/ncaa can't prevent you from taking out a policy that would also guard against 'dropping to the 5th round due to injury'. what you are talking about is just one plan that i would guess is fairly popular.he should just insure himself for his future contract (assuming he can afford the payments now)he is on track to sign a 20 million contract next year. you take out insurance that would compensate (full or partial) for any amount of money less than the expected contract. so if he gets hurt and drops to to 3rd round and signs a 2 million dollar contract, he would receive the remaining or part of it from the insurance company.
RUSF18
Footballguy
You should start your own insurance company.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Go to the CFL for a year.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
I wonder what percentage of football players actually get a solid education? Just look at some of the wonderlic scores. I bet guys like Vince Young aren't taking Calculus.
GregR
Footballguy
For clarity's sake... I listed the positives and negatives I could think of. I noted whether they seemed a net positive. And then I noted the principles the system violates.But I never shared any conclusion of whether I thought the positives of the system were worth violating those principles. I just noted the system does violate them.I actually wrote and then deleted another paragraph to try to reach and justify a conclusion. Talking about whether it should be legal, rights being violated, etc. But trying to put my thoughts into words I ended up conflicted. There are aspects I don't know the relevant labor law well enough. Indeed, I was surprised Clarrett and Williams didn't win their case. I considered some counter arguments to what I was writing - like other age limits that require 18 years to do this or that, or other desirable circumstances where employees collectively bargain away rights - that I think have merit and poke holes in the direction I find myself leaning.So at the moment I'm a bit undecided. The best you can get out of me for a conclusion at the moment, is that I would probably cheer the courts abolishing the NFL's rule, so I lean the opposite direction you thought. Even though I think doing so would probably hurt more people than it helped. And someone more informed on labor law might be able to convince me that the rule is legal, if not perfect, in which case I could see my opinion changing.
GregR
Footballguy
I think it goes far beyond that though.First, boil it down to a very practical level. How much money does a person make in his life with his college experience/education/degree compared to without it? I don't know exact amounts, but imagine it's a given that people with a college degree make a fair amount more on average. Just having a degree gets you opportunities you can't apply for without one.The vast majority of NCAA football players never sniff an NFL career or money. Change the system, where interest declines due to top players going pro or using developmental leagues, and some colleges end their teams. Count out 85 scholarships lost for each FBS school that drops out.Then figure the other revenue losses even for the schools that stay in. That money doesn't just go into some owner's pocket like in the NFL. It goes into general scholarship funds that help other people, financial aid, etc. The only way I could see this aspect not being a positive is if there are so many colleges losing money by having a football program already that they would be better off folding them.
RUSF18
Footballguy
My rough sketch of a proposal would be this: early (early) entrants submit their names for consideration. An advisory board determines which are legitimate candidates to be in the NFL right now, or who should wait a year. Those who they determine qualify get brought in for personal interviews (fly into Indy on their own dime). Any team can interview any player at that time. No workouts. No combine. You're making your call based entirely on this interview and your own scouting. The teams then submit binding offers for what round draft pick of that upcoming year they are willing to draft that player, similar to how the supplemental draft works. The players receive this information back, along with the anticipated contract they would get in that slot. They can then accept and join that team, or reject and go back to school. If accepted, that draft pick is forfeited in the upcoming draft, so in this case, if KC offers their 1st round pick for Clowney and he accepts, JAX is on the clock.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
Until Barry Sanders came around, we'd have to wait two more years for Clowney to enter the NFL.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Note for those of you who don't follow college basketball- we're about to see this play out in the real world with Nerlens Noel. Potential #1 overall pick in the NBA draft injured his knee last night and it looked bad. If it's an ACL he'll still get picked in the first round but it will cost him millions.
He didnt have to play for free (ha!) at Kentucky. He could have done what Brandon Jennings did and play in Europe professionally. Noel could have been getting paid and expanded his game. I dont know why more one and done basketball players don't do that. Marketing their brand is probably harder over seas maybe?It's too bad there isnt an option like that for potential NFL players. CFL? Are there professional European leagues?
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Agree in theory, but I think at this point taking the Brandon Jennings route might be (unfairly) seen as a negative by NBA teams and could cost you money. We're moving a little too far from football for the Shark Pool. Yeah I've wondered about the CFL or other options too. But I think the money is so insignificant with those options that they're not really options at all. Most SEC guys are probably making more in $100 handshakes than they would in another football league.
theres plenty of reasons why nba ready high schoolers dont go to europe for one year. mainly, its much more physical and competitive than ncaa and the style of play restricts individual stats. also, if the coach knows a player is only there for a year, his playing time will be further diminished. it will be very hard to maintain draft status as a teenager playing against very tough grownassman competition on short playing time in a system that doesnt showcase the individual.brandon jennings stats in europe:
then, ofc, consider the background and age/maturity of these prospects and how daunting an extended stay in europe would seem.
coolnerd
Footballguy
The vast majority of football players are normal college students who play football. I have two nephews with college football scholarships. One lettered 4 years, starting off and on at a Big 12 school. He basically no legitiamte shot at playing pro ball, but finished his degree. Most of his teammates were in his boat. They got no special treatment by professors and were in trouble by the coaching staff for not handling the academic side. the other just signed with a Sun Belt school. His greatest concern was whther they would allow him to major in engineering versus how much playing time he was going to get. The school he is going to has only a couple of players in the NFL. There is no delusion that he is a student first and football player second by the coaching staff or him. -----http://www.tidesport.org/Grad%20Rates/2012_Bowl_Study.pdfThis is an academic study which tracks graduation rates for student athletes. More student football players get a degree than not even at football factorires.'Snotbubbles said:
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bigmarc27
Footballguy
I think that's great - seriously.But your nephews and 95% of other student-athletes aren't the people being discussed here. We're talking about the maybe 50 players each year who are not eligible for the draft, but would be drafted. It's like the commercial the NCAA forces down everyone's throat "most of our athletes go pro in something other than sports." Well, duh. It's a great deal for those students, but they have no shot at the NFL or the NBA, they're using the school as much as the school is using them. The small percentage of players that are going pro are getting a raw deal in the matter though, and any classes they attend and degrees they receive are mostly a sham and a disgrace to people like your nephews who work hard.Why would you keep someone like Adrian Petersen in college when he was very obviously NFL ready right out of HS? Those three years probably cost him in terms of lost revenue, upwards of $30-$40 million dollars and three prime running years.
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coolnerd
Footballguy
NFL like any other employer has the right to set standards for work. Outside of highly technical fields most of the jobs that require a degree in the non-sports world are functions where a degree is not truly needed. IMO, The given number of football players being screwed by the NFL's (collectively bargained) rule is less than those that would screw themselves by not waiting for three years post high school graduation.'EBF said:
HellToupee
Footballguy
College BB is my main reason why I don't want college fb to change. One & out sucks in BB
coolnerd
Footballguy
The poster asked how many athletes were getting solid educations. i tried to help answer that.for your more specific concern, I probably answered that with post just above this one, but an employer can set standards for employees to be hired. no matter how brilliant say a 19 year old engineer might be, most companies are not hiring him fulltime until he has that degree.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Seems like kind of a selfish attitude though. "I like this sport, so I therefore support the monopolistic behavior of the people who run it at the pro ranks that artificially restricts the market AND allows the colleges to keep profiting off athletes who play for free. Who cares if it's fair or just or if lives are ruined in the process if it makes my viewing experience better."I'd rather see people good enough to play professionally play professionally, and actual college students play for colleges.
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roadkill1292
Footballguy
Why does the NFL have to set a "standard" for employment? Especially an arbitrary one that ends up excluding qualified employees? One would think that a right to seek employment should trump the league's self-serving employment rules. Either a kid can play well enough to make the team or he can't.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Because they have determined that is what it takes to be ready for their game without them having to spend as much developing guys?Why does any company set a standard for employment?
roadkill1292
Footballguy
If the kid's not ready, then don't hire him. The rule only serves to exclude the qualified. The unqualified shouldn't be hired in the first place because they're, you know, unqualified.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
The NFL isn't analogous to a company here. It's analogous to an entire industry. Entire industries don't have standards of employment, except to protect the public/customers (license or degree requirements, etc.). This is totally different- the NFL has a standard for employment to protect the existing employees and to benefit the teams by entrenching the NCAA as its free farm system. I can't think of any analogy outside of sports.
RUSF18
Footballguy
I think your number of there being 50 of these guys is way way high. There are only 73 early entrants this year under the 3 year rule. Last year, there were 65 guys going to the NFL early. And of those guys, 23 went undrafted.
bigmarc27
Footballguy
I'm sure it is - I overshot purposefully. I would think there's 15 or so draftable players not currently eligible and only a few that would sniff round 1.
coolnerd
Footballguy
well, there are 32 individual businesses which have concluded that it is thier best interest for the entire industry act like one business entity that makes decision for them. We know that the NFL is a monopoly since the courts have ruled as such and the american public accepts the flawed if not otherwise illegal structure of the NFL. Still business entities can choose to set standards of employment even if random and not really logical. there is plenty wrong with the NFL not having a true minor league system like MLB, but there are much worse "injustices" in the world than making a 20 year wait one year to make 20 plus million guaranteed while getting his college paid even if he is not truly going to use that philosophy class again in his life.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Well yeah, sure. But what if he suffers a career-ending injury and it costs him the entire $20 million? Or even a serious injury that knocks him back a couple rounds in the draft and costs him a couple million? Does that bump up the injustice a bit?
sho nuff
Footballguy
So if the league determines nobody is qualified without being 3 years removed from HS...why do you continue to have a problem with it.Because that is what they have done.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Almost every business has a standard of employment.Its to protect its own members as well from the risk of guys they don't feel are ready to play in their league.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
Really? Almost every business has a standard of employment? One that individual companies are not free to violate if they want to hire someone they feel is talented and qualified? Do they also prevent the individual companies from contracting with a prospective employee before they meet those standards if they feel the risk is worth it? The analogy fails for any number of reasons.
