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Le'Veon Bell

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6 hours ago, Steelers4Life said:

If he had signed the offer last year like his agent wanted him to, he would've received $30M between last year and this year, and he'd still be under contract going forward. He's had his chances. Next offseason, someone will pay him more than he's proven himself to be worth in Pittsburgh.

He's going to get close to the same and be a FA going forward.

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37 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

It’s so interesting seeing the same 3/4 people make the same arguments over and over.

New to the SP?

:P

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6 hours ago, Steelers4Life said:

There's always someone with cap space and money to burn, and that's the team that'll sign Bell. I and damn near every Steelers fan out there are glad it's not the Steelers who'll do it.

With or without Bell, this year was a lost year. Didn't look like it before the season, but the defense is worse than anyone realistically expected it to be and that group isn't a championship unit.  No pass rush and a brutal secondary just can't win in the NFL today with everything favoring quarterbacks and passing games. Sucks, but it happens. We've been pretty spoiled as Steelers fans, so if an occasional year like this comes up, it's OK. You dislike the Steelers and you want sooooo badly to think that Bell screwed the team over... while the offense would be better with him, the difference wouldn't make them a contender. So Bell's absence may have given the Steelers 1 extra loss or something, maybe a slightly better draft position next year, and a few extra million dollars to throw at 2019.  So, it's not ALL bad lol. 

Nah they are likely 3-1 with Bell right now. Ben doesn't have many years left either. His play hasn't exactly gotten better. 

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7 hours ago, Dizzy said:

That is not correct. They all do want the same thing... they just don't agree on how to get there.

Negotiation means coming to a mutual agreement.

You are contradicting the hell out of yourself.

They negotiate an agreement.. because they don't agree in the first place.   When parties all want the same thing, these processes are transactional.

Edited by matuski

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38 minutes ago, Milkman said:

Nah they are likely 3-1 with Bell right now. Ben doesn't have many years left either. His play hasn't exactly gotten better. 

 If bell reported week 1 they would have already won the super bowl and bell would be in canton!

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30 minutes ago, Milkman said:

Nah they are likely 3-1 with Bell right now. Ben doesn't have many years left either. His play hasn't exactly gotten better. 

I don't think Bell would have necessary turned the Tie in Cleveland to a Win.   The production from Conner should have been more than enough to win the game, the problem was the turnovers and penalties.   Conner did have a costly fumble though so I guess you could make the argument that Bell wouldn't have fumbled but the game was being played in a torrential downpour so who knows.

For the KC game it is very unlikely that Bell would have made much of a difference.  The offense put up 35 points which should have been more than enough to win.  

Last week the Steelers did not run the ball well.  Heck they hardly ran at all.   If there was a game that Bell could have made a difference this was probably it.  However Ben did not have a good game and the o-line was truly awful.  Top that off with the defense not being able to get off the field in the 2nd half.  

At best I think the Steelers are 2-2 with Bell.

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Just now, Steeler said:

 If bell reported week 1 they would have already won the super bowl and bell would be in canton!

I know it hurts bro.  Just think you could be a Skins fan. Way more painful than this. 

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10 hours ago, Steelers4Life said:

No, he should've told the Steelers his intentions to sit out like this in July

Maybe he didn't know at that time?  

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21 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I don't think Bell would have necessary turned the Tie in Cleveland to a Win.   The production from Conner should have been more than enough to win the game, the problem was the turnovers and penalties.   Conner did have a costly fumble though so I guess you could make the argument that Bell wouldn't have fumbled but the game was being played in a torrential downpour so who knows.

For the KC game it is very unlikely that Bell would have made much of a difference.  The offense put up 35 points which should have been more than enough to win.  

Last week the Steelers did not run the ball well.  Heck they hardly ran at all.   If there was a game that Bell could have made a difference this was probably it.  However Ben did not have a good game and the o-line was truly awful.  Top that off with the defense not being able to get off the field in the 2nd half.  

At best I think the Steelers are 2-2 with Bell.

At best they are 3-1 and you know it. 

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49 minutes ago, matuski said:

You are contradicting the hell out of yourself.

They negotiate an agreement.. because they don't agree in the first place.   When parties all want the same thing, these processes are transactional.

I am sorry, but this is not correct.

If they didn't want the same thing this would be a non-issue, but because everyone involved wants to see Bell playing football they both feel they've got some form of leverage and that slows things to a crawl.

It's really only when one side has the leverage that deals get done quickly... and that's not just football (or sports).

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2 hours ago, Short Corner said:

He's going to get close to the same and be a FA going forward.

Not really. Had he played out both years in full on the tag, he would've received over $26M, but he'll be sacrificing about $6M this year if he does report for week 8. If you consider $20M "close" to $30M, I disagree with that, but that's still lots of money. But yes, I'm sure he'll do well as a free agent next offseason. He has a lot of lost money to make up for.

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15 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

Not really. Had he played out both years in full on the tag, he would've received over $26M, but he'll be sacrificing about $6M this year if he does report for week 8. If you consider $20M "close" to $30M, I disagree with that, but that's still lots of money. But yes, I'm sure he'll do well as a free agent next offseason. He has a lot of lost money to make up for.

I am sure too but if he got off to a pretty slow start last year after missing training camp.  If he reports Week 8 and gets off to another slow start, not to mention risking injury, then he may hurt his chances of maximizing his value.  He could be better off sitting out the entire season.

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11 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I am sure too but if he got off to a pretty slow start last year after missing training camp.  If he reports Week 8 and gets off to another slow start, not to mention risking injury, then he may hurt his chances of maximizing his value.  He could be better off sitting out the entire season.

He's reporting week 7 to pick up that bye-week check.  He'll have two weeks to get in game shape instead of the one he had last season.

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6 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I am sure too but if he got off to a pretty slow start last year after missing training camp.  If he reports Week 8 and gets off to another slow start, not to mention risking injury, then he may hurt his chances of maximizing his value.  He could be better off sitting out the entire season.

Yep. And personally, I wish he would. From what I understand, the Steelers can also use a two week unpaid roster exemption on him if they don't deem him ready. I'd like to see them go that route, but I doubt they will.

This isn't a contending roster with or without him, and I'd rather they let Conner establish himself over a full season, roll more of Bell's salary into 2019, and if it costs them an extra game or two, so what? 

The Falcons are going to put up 50 this weekend and I don't have a lot of faith that this team is going to go into Cincinnati and win either. I consider it likely that they'll be 1-4-1 heading into the bye.

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The more I think about it, the more I want to see the Steelers use the roster exemption on him if he signs leading into the bye week just to collect a check.

No sense in paying him to do nothing after sitting out for 6 weeks.  I'd like to see them use it regardless of when he signs the tender... if Bell can make a "business decision" so can the Steelers. It IS business, after all.

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3 minutes ago, Steelers4Life said:

Yep. And personally, I wish he would. From what I understand, the Steelers can also use a two week unpaid roster exemption on him if they don't deem him ready. I'd like to see them go that route, but I doubt they will.

This isn't a contending roster with or without him, and I'd rather they let Conner establish himself over a full season, roll more of Bell's salary into 2019, and if it costs them an extra game or two, so what? 

The Falcons are going to put up 50 this weekend and I don't have a lot of faith that this team is going to go into Cincinnati and win either. I consider it likely that they'll be 1-4-1 heading into the bye.

Call me a foolish optimist but I expect a win this week (but a loss against the Bengals in week 7).  That would drop us to 2-3-1 and without a win in the division and conference.   

The Steelers would need to go at least 7-3 and more likely 8-2 over the next 10 games and I don't think that is possible even with Bell playing in top form.  If the team somehow wins the next two then great but if not they might as well tell Bell to hit the road, suck this season and get higher picks next year.

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7 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Call me a foolish optimist but I expect a win this week (but a loss against the Bengals in week 7).  That would drop us to 2-3-1 and without a win in the division and conference.   

The Steelers would need to go at least 7-3 and more likely 8-2 over the next 10 games and I don't think that is possible even with Bell playing in top form.  If the team somehow wins the next two then great but if not they might as well tell Bell to hit the road, suck this season and get higher picks next year.

The best thing for a bad defense is a good running game. Can't overhaul an 11 man unit during the season, but a prolonged running game can keep the opposing O (and a their own weak D) off the field. 

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11 hours ago, Milkman said:

Meh if they treated him with more resepect they'd be 3-1 or 2-2 with him and some SB equity. They played hardball and are really paying a heavier price than Bell. Bell is paying a big price doing what he thinks is best too. 

lol.  I can't tell if you are really this dense, or just on a massive  :fishing:   trip.

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9 hours ago, Milkman said:

If someone will pay him then it's not more than he's worth......enjoy the wasted year Steelers. 

do you think Albert Pujols is really worth the contract the Angels gave him?

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1 hour ago, TheFanatic said:

The best thing for a bad defense is a good running game. Can't overhaul an 11 man unit during the season, but a prolonged running game can keep the opposing O (and a their own weak D) off the field. 

Oh I agree but if last week's game against the Ravens is an indication on how the o-line is going to block the Steelers are in big trouble regardless of who is running the ball.  

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1 minute ago, Godsbrother said:

Oh I agree but if last week's game against the Ravens is an indication on how the o-line is going to block the Steelers are in big trouble regardless of who is running the ball.  

Except the Ravens D was predicated on the fact that they didn't need to worry about Conner. They barely blitzed at all, opting to leave everybody they could back to hold AB and Juju in check and Conner did nothing with that extra room to run. If Bell is in there, they can't play the game of, "Beat me with your RB if you can." They will have to cheat up to stop Bell and then the WR's get loose. Having Bell in there would've changed the entire Ravens defensive game plan. 

I'm guessing the Steelers have figured this out and sent the olive branch out because they know they need this guy this year or they waste the last or second to last Big Ben year he has left. 

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Just now, TheFanatic said:

Except the Ravens D was predicated on the fact that they didn't need to worry about Conner. They barely blitzed at all, opting to leave everybody they could back to hold AB and Juju in check and Conner did nothing with that extra room to run. If Bell is in there, they can't play the game of, "Beat me with your RB if you can." They will have to cheat up to stop Bell and then the WR's get loose. Having Bell in there would've changed the entire Ravens defensive game plan. 

I'm guessing the Steelers have figured this out and sent the olive branch out because they know they need this guy this year or they waste the last or second to last Big Ben year he has left. 

If the Ravens did as you say then shouldn't there have been more room to run?   There were zero holes to run through.  Now I agree the defense would have likely played it differently with Bell but I'm not so sure that o-line would have been any more effective.  The Steelers had two of their starting o-lineman coming back from injuries after missing a couple of weeks so maybe that was a possible reason.

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2 hours ago, Steelers4Life said:

The Falcons are going to put up 50 this weekend...

They'll move it up and down the field for sure, but I am envisioning a lot of FGs for ATL.

Did I see that correctly on SNF... was PIT's answer to getting scorched by John Brown to play prevent defense for the remaining three quarters?

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5 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

They'll move it up and down the field for sure, but I am envisioning a lot of FGs for ATL.

Did I see that correctly on SNF... was PIT's answer to getting scorched by John Brown to play prevent defense for the remaining three quarters?

The Steelers will have NO answer for Julio, Ridley, Sanu, Freeman, and Coleman.  The Steelers will score plenty, but I can't see the Steelers defense slowing down Atlanta at all.

That wasn't prevent.  That was the normal Steelers' pass defense at this point.  They generate no pressure on the QB unless they blitz, and they can't blitz because the secondary can't cover.

It's why Bell being there will have little to no impact on their ability to win games no matter who wants to believe otherwise. The team's identity isn't to pound the ball over and over again to shorten the game, and Bell's value doesn't come from his ability to run the ball.  It comes from his ability to work as a receiver AND run the ball. The strength of the Steelers offense is Ben, Brown, and JuJu, and Bell was a big part of the passing game too. They just can't stop anyone. 

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28 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

Except the Ravens D was predicated on the fact that they didn't need to worry about Conner. They barely blitzed at all, opting to leave everybody they could back to hold AB and Juju in check and Conner did nothing with that extra room to run. If Bell is in there, they can't play the game of, "Beat me with your RB if you can." They will have to cheat up to stop Bell and then the WR's get loose. Having Bell in there would've changed the entire Ravens defensive game plan. 

I'm guessing the Steelers have figured this out and sent the olive branch out because they know they need this guy this year or they waste the last or second to last Big Ben year he has left. 

There is no way on earth, zero chance that they reached out to bell. Zero

Edited by irish eyes

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If anyone new is joining this thread in progress I'll sum up the last 20 pages for you:

Steeler fans: think Bell is a selfish drug addled idiot and they knew all along their team would suck anyway so why pay him?

Non-Steeler fans: think the Steelers are cheap bastards and love to see Bell stick it to the man - let's burn down the CBA while we're at it.

Conner owners: Keep up the good fight Le'Veon!!!

Bell owners: "why can't we all (Steelers and Bell) get along?"

Our collective IQs: dropping by the minute

 

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1 hour ago, bryhamm said:

do you think Albert Pujols is really worth the contract the Angels gave him?

Obviously yes.  The Angels decided that.

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41 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

If the Ravens did as you say then shouldn't there have been more room to run?   There were zero holes to run through.  Now I agree the defense would have likely played it differently with Bell but I'm not so sure that o-line would have been any more effective.  The Steelers had two of their starting o-lineman coming back from injuries after missing a couple of weeks so maybe that was a possible reason.

That's exactly what they did. The announcers mentioned it more than once. They said that the Ravens were daring them to run. Hardly no blitz packages whatsoever. They stayed in cover 2 the entire game. I didn't see the entire game, but a big chunk of it and that was the story of the game plan. 

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19 minutes ago, irish eyes said:

There is no way on earth, zero chance that they reached out to bell. Zero

Are you commenting again? The adults are talking here. 

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20 hours ago, Bayhawks said:

How could they have?  Up to that point, as @Donkey Derpkept posting, Conner had been better than Bell for the first 3 games of the season, and for the first 3 starts of his career, and he had better numbers in college, and in HS, and in flag football, and in Madden.  So how could the Steelers have known that Bell was better than Conner, and that one outlier game was skewing the small sample size of Conner’s NFL games?  How could they possibly have known this?

 If you want to have an adult conversation, stop making things up about what I have posted.  I know that's difficult for you.

RBs are easily replaceable and overrated.  That applies to all situations, not just this one.

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20 hours ago, Phenomena said:

Is this a serious post? They were both on the roster the entire season last year.  I'm pretty sure the coaches would know if they had a superstar sitting on the bench.

Is this a serious post?  Coaches and team executives make idiotic decisions all the time.  

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8 minutes ago, matuski said:

Obviously yes.  The Angels decided that.

so, if CLE decided to give Conner a contract of $100mm over 3 years (ignore any cap issues), you would say he is "worth" that?

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6 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

Are you commenting again? The adults are talking here. 

I guess it bothers you being wrong, but keep hurling the insults. You seem like the child here. Now go figure out another story you can make up, like the one about the Steelers "olive branch" to Bell. Sheesh.

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13 hours ago, msudaisy26 said:

1st. You don't know if they have any off the field issues. According to the CBA they can fail up to 3 drug tests before getting a suspension and they aren't leaked until they are close to a suspension. You are also way over blowing the two suspensions. He was never in any danger of anything more than a 4 game suspension and he is out of the program. As far as showing up late everything I have looked up shows Bell had an excuse and that Tomlin knew about and was okay with it. In most of the articles it even says

Tomlin wants players and coaches to report to the locker room two hours before kickoff for games,” Bouchette wrote. “That was continually ignored by both players and a coach or two.

I can't find any quotes from Tomlin being angry about Bell being late and it isn't like him to just be quiet. How come Bell wasn't punished for the game?

As far as reliability Johnson just missed an entire year. Injuries can happen at anytime.

You continue to say it is out of his control and hold it against him. It isn't his fault the Steelers have been in cap hell for a few years.

 

Again, I believe you are in the vast minority thinking his suspensions don't hurt him financially.

Started a poll here: https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/771039-do-leveon-bells-previous-suspensions-hurt-his-contract-demands/

 

Edited by Jed

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18 minutes ago, bryhamm said:

so, if CLE decided to give Conner a contract of $100mm over 3 years (ignore any cap issues), you would say he is "worth" that?

I don't know what the quotations around the word are for but yes... you are worth what people will pay you.

Your example is far fetched obviously, but if that were to occur - CLE decided he was worth $100m over 3 years.

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47 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

That's exactly what they did. The announcers mentioned it more than once. They said that the Ravens were daring them to run. Hardly no blitz packages whatsoever. They stayed in cover 2 the entire game. I didn't see the entire game, but a big chunk of it and that was the story of the game plan. 

Well the Steelers didn't take that dare.  They only ran the ball 11 times in the whole game.   

I think another factor that needs to be considered is the change in offensive coordinator.   Haley was brought in to rein-in Ben and establish more of a balance offense.  Now that he has been replaced with Ben's hand-picked choice I think the ole gunslinger Ben is back and the running game is quickly abandoned if not immediately successful.

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5 hours ago, Milkman said:

Nah they are likely 3-1 with Bell right now. Ben doesn't have many years left either. His play hasn't exactly gotten better. 

How do you figure 3-1?  Their defense is giving up 29 points per game and has been atrocious since Shazier got injured.  

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2 minutes ago, Donkey Derp said:

How do you figure 3-1?  Their defense is giving up 29 points per game and has been atrocious since Shazier got injured.  

Bell is going to play offense AND defense when he gets back to show the world he's worth a zillion dollar contract.      Might even kick too

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49 minutes ago, matuski said:

I don't know what the quotations around the word are for but yes... you are worth what people will pay you.

Your example is far fetched obviously, but if that were to occur - CLE decided he was worth $100m over 3 years.

I don't agree with this.

If I can find 1 idiot in the world to pay me 11 dollars for a ten dollar bill, it does not mean that the 10 dollar bill is now worth 11 dollars.  It just means somebody was willing to overpay above the what the ten dollar bill was actually worth for some reason. 

Another example would be when people pay above the retail price for something on eBay when they could buy the same thing brand new someplace else for less money, it doesn't make the item worth what they paid, it makes the buyer an idiot. 

I guess I'm saying whatever somebody paid is not really a defacto measure of worth.  If you can get somebody to overpay for what you're selling that's great for you, but it doesn't mean you are actually worth that. 

Edited by kittenmittens

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1 hour ago, irish eyes said:

There is no way on earth, zero chance that they reached out to bell. Zero

So to be clear... you are disputing (or dismissing) the report from Monday that specifically says that they did in fact contact Bell?

Interesting. What are you doing here with us schlepps if you've got this kind of insight?

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5 minutes ago, kittenmittens said:

I don't agree with this.

If I can find 1 idiot in the world to pay me 11 dollars for a ten dollar bill, it does not mean that the 10 dollar bill is now worth 11 dollars.  It just means somebody was willing to overpay above the what the ten dollar bill was actually worth for some reason. 

Another example would be when people pay above the retail price for something on eBay when they could buy the same thing brand new someplace else for less money, it doesn't make the item worth what they paid, it makes the buyer an idiot. 

I guess I'm saying whatever somebody paid is not really a defacto measure of worth.  If you can get somebody to overpay for what you're selling that's great for you, but it doesn't mean you are actually worth that. 

ding-ding-ding ... winnah!!!!

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1 hour ago, Dr. Octopus said:

If anyone new is joining this thread in progress I'll sum up the last 20 pages for you:

Steeler fans: think Bell is a selfish drug addled idiot and they knew all along their team would suck anyway so why pay him?

Non-Steeler fans: think the Steelers are cheap bastards and love to see Bell stick it to the man - let's burn down the CBA while we're at it.

Conner owners: Keep up the good fight Le'Veon!!!

Bell owners: "why can't we all (Steelers and Bell) get along?"

Our collective IQs: dropping by the minute

 

That will save a lot of people a lot of time. 

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15 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

So to be clear... you are disputing (or dismissing) the report from Monday that specifically says that they did in fact contact Bell?

Interesting. What are you doing here with us schlepps if you've got this kind of insight?

Who reported it? What reporter, station, etc.? I certainly had not heard that. Only that Jeremy Fowler called him directly and bell said he was going to show up at the bye week.

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Steelers averaged 26.35 ppg last year for 17 games with Bell.  Their defense gave up 17.75 ppg (including the Bengals game) with Shazier.  After Shazier's injury, they gave up 28 ppg.  

This year, their offense is averaging 25.5 ppg and their defense is giving up 29 ppg.

If people want to talk about W/L, their needs to be more emphasis on how bad that defense is now.  If my teammate couldn't walk after a tackle, I would be a step slower too.

Edited by Donkey Derp

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2 hours ago, Donkey Derp said:

 If you want to have an adult conversation, stop making things up about what I have posted.  I know that's difficult for you.

RBs are easily replaceable and overrated.  That applies to all situations, not just this one.

So you didn't post how Conner's 1st 3 '18 games were better than Bell's 1st 3 '17 games?  You didn't post that Conner's 1st 3 starts were better than Bell's 1st 3 starts?  You didn't post how Conner's PPG was higher than Bell's career PPG?  You didn't post Conner's college stats compared to Bell's?  You didn't rate them both as equal (a 90) in JB's thread comparing the two? You didn't ignore the fact that Conner's stats were boosted by a ridiculously small sample size that was radically impacted by 1 huge outlier?  You didn't ignore the fact that Bell is a two-time All-Pro RB, most recently just last year?  Which of these things did I make up?

The Pop Warner/Madden stats were a joke, highlighting the ridiculousness of the extent to which you were ignoring reality to try to bolster your stance.  I posted as much.

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57 minutes ago, Donkey Derp said:

Steelers averaged 26.35 ppg last year for 17 games with Bell.  Their defense gave up 17.75 ppg (including the Bengals game) with Shazier.  After Shazier's injury, they gave up 28 ppg.  

This year, their offense is averaging 25.5 ppg and their defense is giving up 29 ppg.

If people want to talk about W/L, their needs to be more emphasis on how bad that defense is now.  If my teammate couldn't walk after a tackle, I would be a step slower too.

So you are saying the Steelers offense is less effective without Bell :lol:;)

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On 8/9/2013 at 1:09 PM, Bayhawks said:

Not a homer. Happen to live in Pittsburgh area, and thought I would add to the thread. Feel free to ignore my posts.

The best piece of advice in this thread on what should be ignored is five years old.

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