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Le'Veon Bell

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In the meantime, I appreciate these lines in my subscriber lineup:

J Conner RB PIT 4 32.50 RB

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28 minutes ago, matuski said:

Bell >>>> Conner.  PIT with Bell >> PIT with Conner.  Fairly simple.

You know it, they know it, we know it.

But that isn't what you are after here is it?  

 

Don't bother he thinks he is rolling. 

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The stretching of the truth to defend Bell is ludicrous. The offense has barely changed, the scoring hasn’t changed at all. They’re different backs sure but the offense is still targeting the RB at almost the same rate as if Bell was in the offense. Conner forced 12 missed tackles today, a feat only accomplished by Bell once... in his entire career. He has 3 20+ yd runs on the season, the same amount Bell had all last year. I don’t see what there is to argue. If you’re a dynasty holder of Bell, I’m sorry but you’re on the downside. What do you see a 27 year old Bell back at 240lbs doing behind a lesser OLine and an offense probably more reminiscent of Mike McCoy throwing Chase Edmonds out on the field on 3rd downs like a dumb dumb. The Steelers offense is designed to funnel targets to the RB. 

Conner’s pace:

280 carries 1094 yds 3.9 ypc; 90 targets, 70 rec, 765 yds 10.9 ypc

Bell’s 2017:

321 carries 1291 yds 4.0 ypc; 106 targets, 85 rec, 655 yds 7.71ypc

There is nothing to argue. Your eyeball scouting, gut checking is wrong. If the argument is that Conner is average, that means Bell was an average back in a superior offense in 2017. So you’re telling me that in real life a team should over pay for an out of shape back that chose to ride around on jet skis during the season while his production was replicated in his absence? Or, in fantasy, that he will be the same back in some inferior offense with another year beyond the age of decline? You are angry bag holders or fan boys with an agenda.

Edited by Bojang0301
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Memo to Bell don’t rush back, Conner is doing just fine.

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26 minutes ago, Bojang0301 said:

The stretching of the truth to defend Bell is ludicrous. The offense has barely changed, the scoring hasn’t changed at all. They’re different backs sure but the offense is still targeting the RB at almost the same rate as if Bell was in the offense. Conner forced 12 missed tackles today, a feat only accomplished by Bell once... in his entire career. He has 3 20+ yd runs on the season, the same amount Bell had all last year. I don’t see what there is to argue. If you’re a dynasty holder of Bell, I’m sorry but you’re on the downside. What do you see a 27 year old Bell back at 240lbs doing behind a lesser OLine and an offense probably more reminiscent of Mike McCoy throwing Chase Edmonds out on the field on 3rd downs like a dumb dumb. The Steelers offense is designed to funnel targets to the RB. 

Conner’s pace:

280 carries 1094 yds 3.9 ypc; 90 targets, 70 rec, 765 yds 10.9 ypc

Bell’s 2017:

321 carries 1291 yds 4.0 ypc; 106 targets, 85 rec, 655 yds 7.71ypc

There is nothing to argue. Your eyeball scouting, gut checking is wrong. If the argument is that Conner is average, that means Bell was an average back in a superior offense in 2017. So you’re telling me that in real life a team should over pay for an out of shape back that chose to ride around on jet skis during the season while his production was replicated in his absence? Or, in fantasy, that he will be the same back in some inferior offense with another year beyond the age of decline? You are angry bag holders or fan boys with an agenda.

Have people really missed the breakdowns every week on how teams are defending them this year versus last?

In short.. they get to have a linebacker cover the PIT rb, they get to play 2 deep and have the extra man on WR.  

eta - I own Conner in subscriber.  Neither anywhere else.  They beat a bad team today.

etaa - and I'm a Lions fan.

Edited by matuski
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11 minutes ago, matuski said:

Have people really missed the breakdowns every week on how teams are defending them this year versus last?

In short.. they get to have a linebacker cover the PIT rb, they get to play 2 deep and have the extra man on WR.  

eta - I own Conner in subscriber.  Neither anywhere else.  They beat a bad team today.

How long do you think that lasts at >10 ypr? You think the NFL isn’t slow to adjust? I’m anticipating the argument will be that Conner has posted a couple shoddy lines but it’s easy to do that and dismiss multiple games late in the season where Bell had less than 15 carries and was relying heavily on recieving stats. It is also easy to forget his below average games against Detroit and Indy, two bad defenses last year. NFL players are not judged by individual weeks when all is said at the end of the day. Conner has trended as profiling as similar to 2017 Lev Bell and that’s where we stand until Bell is back.

Edited by Bojang0301

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6 minutes ago, Bojang0301 said:

How long do you think that lasts at >10 ypr? You think the NFL isn’t slow to adjust? I’m anticipating the argument will be that Conner has posted a couple shoddy lines but it’s easy to do that and dismiss multiple games late in the season where Bell had less than 15 carries and was relying heavily on recieving stats. It is also easy to forget his below average games against Detroit and Indy, two bad defenses last year. NFL players are not judged by individual weeks when all is said at the end of the day. Conner has trended as profiling as similar to 2017 Lev Bell and that’s where we stand until Bell is back.

I'm not arguing anything against Conner.

I don't find the emotional arguments compelling ("angry bag holders or fan boys with an agenda").   I don't really care aside from observing the obvious:

Bell is the better player.  Teams are indeed defending PIT differently with Bell out.  It really is that simple.  I am not sure why people get personally invested in this.. it isn't controversial.

Edited by matuski
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I just traded Bell straight for Michel. What do we feel Bell's fantasy market value is currently? Is Michel an accurate reflection of his value? Caveat is I'm 1-4 and the other team is 5-0, clearly rolling the dice for a championship.  Forgive me if this is the wrong thread for such questions, relatively new to posting.

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1 minute ago, matuski said:

I'm not arguing anything against Conner.

I don't find the emotional arguments compelling ("angry bag holders or fan boys with an agenda").   I don't really care aside from observing the obvious:

Bell is the better player.  Teams are indeed defending PIT differently with Bell out.  It really is that simple.

Ok, what you are saying to me has no argument at all though. Do you think teams will continue to defend the same with Conner averaging what he is per catch and averaging such a high catch rate? I would actually expect regression there, even if they do, but it stands to reason if he is having such success there that the defense can no longer ignore or think of him as some below average threat out of the backfield when he’s been very good. I didn’t get to watch most of today’s game and I don’t scout X’s and O’s. I can say I haven’t seen Conner spread out wide as much as Bell or running some of the deep routes but the surface numbers kind of tell me it may not matter.

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20 minutes ago, matuski said:

I'm not arguing anything against Conner.

I don't find the emotional arguments compelling ("angry bag holders or fan boys with an agenda").   I don't really care aside from observing the obvious:

Bell is the better player.  Teams are indeed defending PIT differently with Bell out.  It really is that simple.  I am not sure why people get personally invested in this.. it isn't controversial.

What offensive metric has suffered since Conner began starting this year vs. when Bell started?  

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The Steelers aren’t winning this year because their defense isn’t very good. If Bell was playing they would have the same exact record. With that in mind if I were the Steelers I would deal him for anything.

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3 hours ago, ThanosX said:

I just traded Bell straight for Michel. What do we feel Bell's fantasy market value is currently? Is Michel an accurate reflection of his value? Caveat is I'm 1-4 and the other team is 5-0, clearly rolling the dice for a championship.  Forgive me if this is the wrong thread for such questions, relatively new to posting.

I think this is an awful trade for you.  If you're the 5-0 team I could get behind it.  At 1-4, if you don't win the next 2 weeks your season is over.  You just made your team quite a bit worse for the next 2 weeks. 

EDT:  I misread the post.  I like this trade for you.  You had to do something, if you held onto Bell you're likely not making it to 3-4 before he's back and you're likely out. 

Edited by Deamon

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11 minutes ago, Deamon said:

I think this is an awful trade for you.  If you're the 5-0 team I could get behind it.  At 1-4, if you don't win the next 2 weeks your season is over.  You just made your team quite a bit worse for the next 2 weeks. 

Actually even if I’m the 5-0 team no way in hell am I making that trade.  At 5-0, you’re in good shape for the playoffs so I would hold onto Bell assuming he’s the stud that you expect come playoff time

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13 minutes ago, Deamon said:

I think this is an awful trade for you.  If you're the 5-0 team I could get behind it.  At 1-4, if you don't win the next 2 weeks your season is over.  You just made your team quite a bit worse for the next 2 weeks. 

Did you read this backwards?  He’s desperate and thus trading for someone who can help now.  Still agree with you that it’s a bad trade as I think he can do better than Michel

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1 minute ago, fred_1_15301 said:

Actually even if I’m the 5-0 team no way in hell am I making that trade.  At 5-0, you’re in good shape for the playoffs so I would hold onto Bell assuming he’s the stud that you expect come playoff time

Ya.  Was weird wording.  I meant if the OP was the 5-0 team, then I could get behind him making a trade FOR Bell (not for sure, but maybe).

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1 minute ago, fred_1_15301 said:

Did you read this backwards?  He’s desperate and thus trading for someone who can help now.  Still agree with you that it’s a bad trade as I think he can do better than Michel

I for sure read that backwards.  If I'm 1-4 I'd definitely trade Bell for Michel in a heartbeat.  Especially with a juicy matchup next week.  (Unless of course he could get more for him, but I'm not so sure any team is going to give up more than Michel for Bell with so many unknowns)

 

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Correct, I'm the desperate team. Bell doesn't do me any good next week and I have to win. I also don't think Conner is going anywhere after his performance today.  If Michel was low, what do you think Bell could have fetched in a trade? Do you think Conner's performance sinks Bell's value, or does it largely stay untouched?

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15 minutes ago, ThanosX said:

Correct, I'm the desperate team. Bell doesn't do me any good next week and I have to win. I also don't think Conner is going anywhere after his performance today.  If Michel was low, what do you think Bell could have fetched in a trade? Do you think Conner's performance sinks Bell's value, or does it largely stay untouched?

The Connor/Bell situation could go in a million ways, it's hard for anyone to even be sure.  Besides that, that's not your problem anymore as he's off your roster.

I dunno, I like Sony ROS.  I think you got good value.  I doubt anyone would be willing to give up an RB1 for Bell at this point, and Sony seems to be a good RB2 ROS at the least. 

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I agree, I think Bell has more name value currently than actual value.  Thanks for the feedback Deamon.

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On 10/6/2018 at 8:45 PM, irish eyes said:

Great for Jackson, not his team.

It as not great for VJAX and it's inaccurate as could be to say holding out worked for him. He lost close to $3M in wages that year and no evidence exists he got back what he lost on his long term deal. People can argue he saved himself from injury but that's pure speculation and we've seen a lot of players suffer massive injuries and still get big contracts. Like Allen Robinson but he's not alone. Bottom line he lost $3M in wages and an attempt to frame that as a win for him is not a legit take, it's someone arguing in the face of facts.

You know someone who won by reporting? Earl Thomas that's who. Earl Thomas makes his full pay this year, pay he'd not make if he had no reported. As you will all see when he hits FA next year his injury won't impact him one iota and in fact he'll have had a long time to rest and reduce wear and tear on his body. Like Bell and like VJAX before him had he sat out 10 games that would just be throwing money away he'll never get back.

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Situation is going to suck when Bell comes back. What are they paying him, like $850k a game? They aren't going to bench him, they'll play him, but they'll also play Conner as I think they are looking forward and want him to continue to develop in their scheme. 

With that, I think they'll both become highly unpredictable, it could be a hot hand situation, and suck for both Bell and Conner owners. I don't think any trade gets done for Bell either, who wants/needs him for the back half of the season. Maybe if the Texans can get competitive, they're RB situation is terrible. Green Bay I'd think would be a solid fit for his skillset, but I don't see anything like that happening, wishful thinking. 

Reality is, Conner/Bell owners, we're both ####ed. 

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26 minutes ago, menobrown said:

It as not great for VJAX and it's inaccurate as could be to say holding out worked for him. He lost close to $3M in wages that year and no evidence exists he got back what he lost on his long term deal. People can argue he saved himself from injury but that's pure speculation and we've seen a lot of players suffer massive injuries and still get big contracts. Like Allen Robinson but he's not alone. Bottom line he lost $3M in wages and an attempt to frame that as a win for him is not a legit take, it's someone arguing in the face of facts.

You know someone who won by reporting? Earl Thomas that's who. Earl Thomas makes his full pay this year, pay he'd not make if he had no reported. As you will all see when he hits FA next year his injury won't impact him one iota and in fact he'll have had a long time to rest and reduce wear and tear on his body. Like Bell and like VJAX before him had he sat out 10 games that would just be throwing money away he'll never get back.

It definitely will not have a positive effect.  He might lose a little in guaranteed money.  I would say though, that if this was a torn ACL instead of a fracture it would have a bigger impact on his next contract.

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3 minutes ago, fantasycurse42 said:

Situation is going to suck when Bell comes back. What are they paying him, like $850k a game? They aren't going to bench him, they'll play him, but they'll also play Conner as I think they are looking forward and want him to continue to develop in their scheme. 

With that, I think they'll both become highly unpredictable, it could be a hot hand situation, and suck for both Bell and Conner owners. I don't think any trade gets done for Bell either, who wants/needs him for the back half of the season. Maybe if the Texans can get competitive, they're RB situation is terrible. Green Bay I'd think would be a solid fit for his skillset, but I don't see anything like that happening, wishful thinking. 

Reality is, Conner/Bell owners, we're both ####ed. 

After the first game (getting Bell up to speed), they will play Bell almost exclusively.

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6 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

After the first game (getting Bell up to speed), they will play Bell almost exclusively.

We can revisit this at the end of the season.

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14 hours ago, Bojang0301 said:

There is nothing to argue. Your eyeball scouting, gut checking is wrong.

I'm a Bell owner and I think he's the superior talent - but at this point there's no denying this. Conner has kept the offense humming at an identical place and while he's a different runner, he's an effective one. In hindsight I'm sure Pittsburgh wises that it used that $14MM on a line-backer and let Bell walk. I'm sure Bell wishes the same thing. Would the Steelers be even better with Bell? I suppose that's possible, but what difference could it really make.

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So this is what we are doing? Anytime Conner has a good game, it's Bell is average. Every time Conner has a terrible game, it's Bell racking up Benjamins? 

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James Conner now has as many 20+ yard runs as Le'Veon Bell did last year on 321 carries. #Steelers

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What type of game shape can Bell possibly be in at this point?

There is no way I would give into this arrogant man child and simply give him the starting job. I would do anything to trade him considering there is no way he is a Steeler next season.

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2 hours ago, Chaz McNulty said:

After the first game (getting Bell up to speed), they will play Bell almost exclusively.

I think that is unlikely.  Conner has shown that he deserves to play.  Assuming Bell ever suits up with the team I do not see him getting more than 50% of the snaps on average unless Conner is banged up.

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Crap, then probably neither of them will be worth that much in fantasy.

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/8390/leveon-bell

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette's Ed Bouchette suggests Le'Veon Bell and James Conner could be used in a committee when Bell ends his holdout.

This is speculation from Bouchette, but he quizzed players in the locker room on the topic and makes several important points. Most important is the fact that Bell is concerned about his workload, not wanting to be overused by the Steelers as he prepares for 2019 free agency. Conner has been terrific in Bell's absence, more than earning a role in this potential RBBC. Bell also struggled initially to get into football shape following his 2017 training camp holdout.

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19 minutes ago, The General said:

Really hope Bell gets traded. Probably a 1% chance of this happening.

Ajayi just placed on IR.

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21 minutes ago, The General said:

Really hope Bell gets traded. Probably a 1% chance of this happening.

For Bell's sake, he better hope he gets traded immediately.

If he plays a few games for the PS and Conner is just as effective (which is very possible), his Top 3 RB/WR argument gets blatantly exposed, even to those teams who were previously stupid enough to consider paying him Top 3 RB money.

I would say there's a > 50% chance he gets traded before he suits up for the PS, and when that happens the only thing I'll care about is determining where we're going to spend Bell's money on the defense side of the ball. 

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2 minutes ago, Buttonhook said:

For Bell's sake, he better hope he gets traded immediately.

If he plays a few games for the PS and Conner is just as effective (which is very possible), his Top 3 RB/WR argument gets blatantly exposed, even to those teams who were previously stupid enough to consider paying him Top 3 RB money.

I would say there's a > 50% chance he gets traded before he suits up for the PS, and when that happens the only thing I'll care about is determining where we're going to spend Bell's money on the defense side of the ball. 

Definitely makes sense to trade him.

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3 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

I think that is unlikely.  Conner has shown that he deserves to play.  Assuming Bell ever suits up with the team I do not see him getting more than 50% of the snaps on average unless Conner is banged up.

Meh - no reason to put excess wear and tear on Conner this season.  Run Bell into the ground, and save Conner for next season...  :P

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Do the Eagles have the cap space to pay him the remainder of his franchise tag this year?

I never thought a trade would be possible because I assumed Bell would not show up until week 10.  However, if the speculation is true and he reports during the Steelers bye week he could report as early as 10/15 which would give the Steelers 2 weeks to work out a trade.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

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3 minutes ago, Steeler said:

Do the Eagles have the cap space to pay him the remainder of his franchise tag this year?

I never thought a trade would be possible because I assumed Bell would not show up until week 10.  However, if the speculation is true and he reports during the Steelers bye week he could report as early as 10/15 which would give the Steelers 2 weeks to work out a trade.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I think they need to move foles and probably trade a player to steelers too. 

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4 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

I think they need to move foles and probably trade a player to steelers too. 

So then not likely to happen IMO.  Bell still needs to be viewed as a rental player for the team getting him, so I'm not sure the Eagles would be willing to make so many moves to acquire him with no guarantee he'll be back in 2019.  

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45 minutes ago, Steeler said:

Do the Eagles have the cap space to pay him the remainder of his franchise tag this year?

I never thought a trade would be possible because I assumed Bell would not show up until week 10.  However, if the speculation is true and he reports during the Steelers bye week he could report as early as 10/15 which would give the Steelers 2 weeks to work out a trade.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

They need to trade Foles; probably to a different team-not sure Pitt will want him.  He’s the most likely option that would free up the requisite cap space.  Then, they’d have to give a pick; can’t imagine Pitt would take less than a 3rd-they’d likely get a comp pick at the end of the 3rd if they lose Bell to FA.

Not impossible, but difficult, IMO.

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1 hour ago, The General said:

Really hope Bell gets traded. Probably a 1% chance of this happening.

Definitely higher than 1%. 

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54 minutes ago, Steeler said:

So then not likely to happen IMO.  Bell still needs to be viewed as a rental player for the team getting him, so I'm not sure the Eagles would be willing to make so many moves to acquire him with no guarantee he'll be back in 2019.  

They should trade Foles to NE...

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Eagles restructured contract of Pro-Bowl DT Fletcher Cox on Friday, creating $6.5 million more of cap space this season and $11.7 million more next season, sources tell @mortreport and me. But Eagles have not pursued a trade for Le’Veon Bell and have no plans to, per sources.

https://twitter.com/adamschefter/status/1049439935000924160?s=21

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Schefter says no...

ESPN's Adam Schefter reports the Eagles "have not pursued a trade" for holdout Le'Veon Bell and "have no plans to do so."

Bell singled out the Eagles as a potential destination spot for himself when he spoke to ESPN's Jeremy Fowler last week, but the Eagles don't appear to be willing to pay the Steelers' asking price and then hand Bell a gargantuan contract. With Jay Ajayi done for the year with a torn ACL, the Eagles' initial plan looks to be to lean on Corey Clement and Wendell Smallwood. Oct 8 - 7:26 PM

Source: Adam Schefter on Twitter

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18 hours ago, Franknbeans said:

Schefter says no...

ESPN's Adam Schefter reports the Eagles "have not pursued a trade" for holdout Le'Veon Bell and "have no plans to do so."

Bell singled out the Eagles as a potential destination spot for himself when he spoke to ESPN's Jeremy Fowler last week, but the Eagles don't appear to be willing to pay the Steelers' asking price and then hand Bell a gargantuan contract. With Jay Ajayi done for the year with a torn ACL, the Eagles' initial plan looks to be to lean on Corey Clement and Wendell Smallwood. Oct 8 - 7:26 PM

Source: Adam Schefter on Twitter

Translation in Howie-speak, "the deal is done."

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4 minutes ago, unckeyherb said:

Translation in Howie-speak, "the deal is done."

Last week we had one coach say "Royce Freeman will get more carries," and another say, "Chubb has earned more playing time." So there seems to be quite a bit of coach speak going on right now. Usually this much coach speak means it's pre-season, and more specifically, right after the draft. But here we have it. I agree. This deal will probably be announced on Thursday. 

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3 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

This deal will probably be announced on Thursday. 

Strictly from a fantasy foosball perspective, this would be more than ideal for owners of both Bell and Conner. Specifically, me! 

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