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Le'Veon Bell

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53 minutes ago, bryhamm said:

Good to know you think Ryan Fitzpatrick is the best QB in the league.

I usually try to respond when someone comments on a post of mine but I may have to wait till my third grader gets home from school. I have no idea what your response means. Maybe a child would. 

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30 minutes ago, Wrigley said:

I hope PIT pulls the offer right before Bell comes into to sign. 

What would be their motivation to do that?

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3 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

What would be their motivation to do that?

To not pay 8 million dollars to a player that doesn't really want to play for you, only to get a compensatory third round pick in two years. 

There is something to be said for putting this saga in the rear view and while the Rooney's don't need the money, 8 million is still a lot of scratch.

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1 minute ago, brewer said:

To not pay 8 million dollars to a player that doesn't really want to play for you, only to get a compensatory third round pick in two years. 

There is something to be said for putting this saga in the rear view and while the Rooney's don't need the money, 8 million is still a lot of scratch.

Oh OK. I wasn't aware they had amassed such depth at RB. I thought they were still trying to win a Super Bowl.

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Just now, Dizzy said:

Oh OK. I wasn't aware they had amassed such depth at RB. I thought they were still trying to win a Super Bowl.

I didn't say I would revoke the tag if I were them, you asked what the motivation would be.

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2 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

Oh OK. I wasn't aware they had amassed such depth at RB. I thought they were still trying to win a Super Bowl.

Good point.  Having a quality backup in case Conner goes down is a wise move. 

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3 minutes ago, JuniorNB said:

Good point.  Having a quality backup in case Conner goes down is a wise move. 

Funny.

Depth is depth... all in year, better to have both.

I don't care about, or count, other people's money. I'm here for the football talk.

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What the STEELERS do if/when Bell signs will show how they view this situation.  They can either play him and put the past behind them under the guise of "we want to win, he can help us win," or they can be spiteful to prove a point.  Bell has shown, in my eyes, and some of his teammates eyes, really selfish behavior.  The Rooney family is of high moral character.  I could see them foregoing a 3rd round pick to prove a point.  I could also see them simply locking him out for the rest of the season after he signs, also to prove a point.  I wouldn't say the same thing about some teams, but the Steelers aren't always making decisions so heavily on "win first."

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1 hour ago, Dizzy said:

Oh OK. I wasn't aware they had amassed such depth at RB. I thought they were still trying to win a Super Bowl.

They can sign some FA RB and be equally as good.

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1 hour ago, Dizzy said:

Funny.

Depth is depth... all in year, better to have both.

I don't care about, or count, other people's money. I'm here for the football talk.

Unfortunately, you can't talk football in this instance without also talking money. Pittsburgh would be crazy to bring in a guy who's make a million dollars a game when they're getting equal or better production as is. 

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1 hour ago, Fat Nick said:

What the STEELERS do if/when Bell signs will show how they view this situation.  They can either play him and put the past behind them under the guise of "we want to win, he can help us win," or they can be spiteful to prove a point.  Bell has shown, in my eyes, and some of his teammates eyes, really selfish behavior.  The Rooney family is of high moral character.  I could see them foregoing a 3rd round pick to prove a point.  I could also see them simply locking him out for the rest of the season after he signs, also to prove a point.  I wouldn't say the same thing about some teams, but the Steelers aren't always making decisions so heavily on "win first."

No offense, but the high moral character bit is hit or miss.  

Roethlisberger accused of rape; franchise QB-we look the other way.

James Harrison beats his wife; he’s a stud defender; look the other way.

Cedric Wilson beats his wife; he’s a backup WR-get him out of here

James Harrison sleeping in meetings; past his prime-get him out of here.

Blount and Bell smoking weed before a away trip (Bell driving); Blount is a backup-cut him mid-season.  Bell is a stud RB-look the other way.

Pretty sure they make decisions based on winning first.

 

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3 minutes ago, JuniorNB said:

Unfortunately, you can't talk football in this instance without also talking money. Pittsburgh would be crazy to bring in a guy who's make a million dollars a game when they're getting equal or better production as is. 

My thought is the Steelers will exempt Bell initially after he signs and evaluate what kind of shape he is mentally and physically.   If he has a decent attitude and can work himself into game shape I think they will get in him in sooner or later.   I do not see them benching Conner for Bell but I do see a split if/when Bell is ready.

In other words I think both the Steelers and Bell will take the high road.   

It will be interesting to see what Bell will do if the Steelers make the postseason because at that point he doesn't have to play and he won't be making $850k per game.  Will his desire for a Super Bowl outweigh his obvious incentive to sit and avoid the risk of injury?

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1 minute ago, Bayhawks said:

No offense, but the high moral character bit is hit or miss.  

Roethlisberger accused of rape; franchise QB-we look the other way.

James Harrison beats his wife; he’s a stud defender; look the other way.

Cedric Wilson beats his wife; he’s a backup WR-get him out of here

James Harrison sleeping in meetings; past his prime-get him out of here.

Blount and Bell smoking weed before a away trip (Bell driving); Blount is a backup-cut him mid-season.  Bell is a stud RB-look the other way.

Pretty sure they make decisions based on winning first.

 

They certainly, there is no denying that.  However I would like to clarify a few of your points:

They didn't cut Blount for smoking weed, he was cut because he walked off the field during a game.  

I remember at the time Dan Rooney came out and defended Harrison in the situation with his wife saying that it was being mis-characterized in the press.  Something about pushing his wife when she got in the way of him taking his son to church or what not.   I can't recall the details now...

When Harrison was cut it was for insubordination -- there was a lot more to it than sleeping through meetings.

You have a point with Wilson.  On the other hand Santonio Holmes was traded for a 5th round pick in the prime of his career for his off the field hi jinks.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

They certainly, there is no denying that.  However I would like to clarify a few of your points:

They didn't cut Blount for smoking weed, he was cut because he walked off the field during a game.  

I remember at the time Dan Rooney came out and defended Harrison in the situation with his wife saying that it was being mis-characterized in the press.  Something about pushing his wife when she got in the way of him taking his son to church or what not.   I can't recall the details now...

When Harrison was cut it was for insubordination -- there was a lot more to it than sleeping through meetings.

You have a point with Wilson.  On the other hand Santonio Holmes was traded for a 5th round pick in the prime of his career for his off the field hi jinks.

 

 

...and they also let Plaxico go too due to various issues.  You could argue that was mutual, but still...

My point is, compared to other teams, the Steelers value character a little more than most.  Not saying they run it 100% morally, but I'd say they're skewed that way.

Also, agree there's nearly a 0% chance Conner doesn't get at least a time-share.  I have to ask myself how committed Bell would be to anything (superbowl or otherwise) given his attitude thus far.  I really don't know why people aren't more outraged at the fact that a guy is holding out because he doesn't want to risk getting hurt.  It's just completely ridiculous. 

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14 minutes ago, Fat Nick said:

...and they also let Plaxico go too due to various issues.  You could argue that was mutual, but still...

My point is, compared to other teams, the Steelers value character a little more than most.  Not saying they run it 100% morally, but I'd say they're skewed that way.

Also, agree there's nearly a 0% chance Conner doesn't get at least a time-share.  I have to ask myself how committed Bell would be to anything (superbowl or otherwise) given his attitude thus far.  I really don't know why people aren't more outraged at the fact that a guy is holding out because he doesn't want to risk getting hurt.  It's just completely ridiculous. 

We think it’s coiincidence that every time the Steelers make a “character” driven move, it’s with players who aren’t good any more (Holmes being the lone exception-and he never approached his one great season, before or after)?

If they value character so highly, why was Harrison’s spousal abuse OK, but Wilson’s merited immediate dismissal?  Didn’t have anything to do with their disparate value on the field?  

Why keep Roethlisberger after multiple accusations of sexual Abuse/assault?  Didn’t have anything to do with the value of a franchise QB? 

Why cut Blount and Harrison when they aren’t good & are insubordinate, but tolerate AB missing/coming late to meetings, tweeting “trade me and see what happens,” throwing tantrums when he doesn’t get the ball enough, etc?

You want to pretend that the Steelers are this bastion of character over winning, that’s fine, but you’re lying to yourself.  They value character when the player who isn’t demonstrating high character isn’t important.

Edited by Bayhawks
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1 hour ago, tjnc09 said:

They can sign some FA RB and be equally as good.

Really? How'd that work out in their last playoff game in Denver?

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As I recall, ownership was livid with Ben and were seriously considering letting him go. I believe they also helped put conditions in place that Ben met in order to stay on with the team.

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I'm no Steelers expert but when he comes back he's playing. They aren't going to do any weird roster stuff, bench him to send messages, etc. They will put him in and try and win. They have a tough schedule coming up, he's getting touches.

As a Conner owner I'm hoping that Conner still is worth 60% of what he has been. Probably going to be less if I had to bet.

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1 hour ago, Franknbeans said:

As I recall, ownership was livid with Ben and were seriously considering letting him go. I believe they also helped put conditions in place that Ben met in order to stay on with the team.

So, “we’re really mad at you, but we’re going to keep you.”  Do you think they make the same call if he’s a backup, or a punter, or a long snapper?

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8 hours ago, The General said:

I'm no Steelers expert but when he comes back he's playing. They aren't going to do any weird roster stuff, bench him to send messages, etc. They will put him in and try and win. They have a tough schedule coming up, he's getting touches.

As a Conner owner I'm hoping that Conner still is worth 60% of what he has been. Probably going to be less if I had to bet.

I own both and think you are way off base. 

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19 minutes ago, FGITLOTR said:

I own both and think you are way off base. 

I own one and HOPE you are way off base

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Sends a great message bringing him back at this point and slotting him in as the starter.

You have a solid kid who grinded out 8 games and put up great stats, and then you bench him when some bum who sat out because 15m or whatever wasnt good enough decides it's time to earn a gamecheck?

I dunno... sounds like a solid way to lose a locker room in many ways. 

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9 minutes ago, Soulfly3 said:

Sends a great message bringing him back at this point and slotting him in as the starter.

You have a solid kid who grinded out 8 games and put up great stats, and then you bench him when some bum who sat out because 15m or whatever wasnt good enough decides it's time to earn a gamecheck?

I dunno... sounds like a solid way to lose a locker room in many ways. 

I don't really care how this plays out as long as Bell doesn't immediately become the starter for all the reasons you mentioned (and I really don't think it will happen TBH).  I hope they put Bell on the exempt list for 2 weeks so they can evaluate his fitness level and commitment to the team, and then work him in slowly for a few weeks after that... give him a series or 2 to spell Conner and have some specific plays for him or whatever.  A lot of people are speculating about having Conner, AB, JuJu, Vance McDonald and Bell on the field at the same time, which would be pretty sweet.

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44 minutes ago, Soulfly3 said:

Sends a great message bringing him back at this point and slotting him in as the starter.

You have a solid kid who grinded out 8 games and put up great stats, and then you bench him when some bum who sat out because 15m or whatever wasnt good enough decides it's time to earn a gamecheck?

I dunno... sounds like a solid way to lose a locker room in many ways. 

Says the guy who couldn't wait for his team to bench a solid kid so they could replace him with a bum who had missed two years because partying was more important than his job until he decided it was time to earn a gamecheck.

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No Bell at meetings this morning per Rappaport.

Still say this guy doesn't play another down in a Steelers uniform. 

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19 hours ago, Fat Nick said:

McCoy was actually decent in his first few years in Buffalo though...I'm not sure Bell will be.  I think McCoy was a much more gifted runner honestly.

So now Bell can't play in the NFL? WOW! I always said the shark pool had less than a year of memory, but now we are only going back 8 games. The guy averaged more yards per game for his first five years in the league than any other Running Back in league history. First he isn't better than Conner and now he won't be able to play for another team because what, his YPC this year is 0.0 in 2018? (because it's all about the stat lines in this thread)

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20 minutes ago, kyoun1e said:

No Bell at meetings this morning per Rappaport.

Still say this guy doesn't play another down in a Steelers uniform. 

I don't see any reason why Bell would come in any earlier than week 10 or 11 at this point, if he comes in at all.   

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8 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

I don't see any reason why Bell would come in any earlier than week 10 or 11 at this point, if he comes in at all.   

Bell might not even want to play football anymore.

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2 minutes ago, TheFanatic said:

So now Bell can't play in the NFL? WOW! I always said the shark pool had less than a year of memory, but now we are only going back 8 games. The guy averaged more yards per game for his first five years in the league than any other Running Back in league history. First he isn't better than Conner and now he won't be able to play for another team because what, his YPC this year is 0.0 in 2018? (because it's all about the stat lines in this thread)

Where did I say he can't play in the NFL?  I just said I don't think he'll be a decent RB wherever he ends up.  I don't see any situation where any of his next 3 years in the league are better statistically than the average of his last 3 full seasons (throw out 2015).  He's not going to put up 2,000 total yards and 10 TD's again.  

You can quote stats all you want - all his stats were behind Pittsburgh's OL, in a Pittsburgh system.  The same system Conner is doing well in.  So there is some impact from talent, and some impact from team.  If you can't see that, there's no point discussing further.  The QUESTION is how much of Bell's stats are driven by Bell's talent, and how much are driven by the team he is on.  You're clearly on the Bell side, I'm further on the team side.  

Also, I never said he wasn't better than Conner.  I think his receiving skills are clearly better than Conner's...I do think that NEITHER of them are transcending RB talents that would excel on any team in the league regardless of situation. 

My point is that Bell's stats are more due to his situation and team than his  exceptional physical ability.  Again, to be clear, I'm not saying he's a bum.  I'm not saying Conner is necessarily better.  I'm saying that his talent ALONE is not sufficient to get 2000 yards and 10 TD's irregardless of the team - thus any team willing to pay him on that basis will be overpaying.  That also implies that Pittsburgh would be foolish to overpay him because it's the OL/system that is largely accountable for his stats, and he shouldn't get paid for that.  (Exhibit 1a and 1b for that argument are D. Williams and Conner)

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THIS is the best article I've seen to-date that outlines the various scenarios re. Bell.  Very interesting re. the potential for a private gentleman's agreement.  

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2 minutes ago, Fat Nick said:

Where did I say he can't play in the NFL?  I just said I don't think he'll be a decent RB wherever he ends up.  I don't see any situation where any of his next 3 years in the league are better statistically than the average of his last 3 full seasons (throw out 2015).  He's not going to put up 2,000 total yards and 10 TD's again.  

You can quote stats all you want - all his stats were behind Pittsburgh's OL, in a Pittsburgh system.  The same system Conner is doing well in.  So there is some impact from talent, and some impact from team.  If you can't see that, there's no point discussing further.  The QUESTION is how much of Bell's stats are driven by Bell's talent, and how much are driven by the team he is on.  You're clearly on the Bell side, I'm further on the team side.  

Also, I never said he wasn't better than Conner.  I think his receiving skills are clearly better than Conner's...I do think that NEITHER of them are transcending RB talents that would excel on any team in the league regardless of situation. 

My point is that Bell's stats are more due to his situation and team than his  exceptional physical ability.  Again, to be clear, I'm not saying he's a bum.  I'm not saying Conner is necessarily better.  I'm saying that his talent ALONE is not sufficient to get 2000 yards and 10 TD's irregardless of the team - thus any team willing to pay him on that basis will be overpaying.  That also implies that Pittsburgh would be foolish to overpay him because it's the OL/system that is largely accountable for his stats, and he shouldn't get paid for that.  (Exhibit 1a and 1b for that argument are D. Williams and Conner)

Would you rather have D. Cook or Bell going forward?

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7 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

Bell might not even want to play football anymore.

 If I'm the Steelers, I HAVE to ask myself how hard a guy is going to go if his #1 motivation is not getting hurt before his big payday.  That's my logic behind why I don't think he plays (or plays minimally) for them this year.  He has nothing to gain and everything to lose, based on his current motivation, to play hard.

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1 minute ago, NeverEnough said:

Would you rather have D. Cook or Bell going forward?

This year?  D. Cook.  Next year?  Depends on where Bell lands...I think D. Cook will likely be in a better situation.

If Bell lands somewhere completely whacky (i.e. San Diego if Gordon falls off a wagon or something), maybe I'd go Bell...but if you look at the likely landing spots, Cook.  Most teams that are looking for RB's don't have a system that supports RB's.

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1 hour ago, apalmer said:

Says the guy who couldn't wait for his team to bench a solid kid so they could replace him with a bum who had missed two years because partying was more important than his job until he decided it was time to earn a gamecheck.

You're comparing Gordon, on a rookie deal, with mental health and substance abuse issues, to Bell refusing 15m a year because it's not enough?

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Just now, Soulfly3 said:

You're comparing Gordon, on a rookie deal, with mental health and substance abuse issues, to Bell refusing 15m a year because it's not enough?

No, I'm comparing benching a solid kid for a guy who only cares about himself and benching a solid kid for a guy who only cares about himself. 

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2 minutes ago, apalmer said:

No, I'm comparing benching a solid kid for a guy who only cares about himself and benching a solid kid for a guy who only cares about himself

I hear ya. 

ETA I think you are completely wrong.  But I hear ya.

Edited by Hairy Snowman

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27 minutes ago, apalmer said:

No, I'm comparing benching a solid kid for a guy who only cares about himself and benching a solid kid for a guy who only cares about himself. 

Who is/was the "solid kid" gordon was benching, exactly?

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Just now, Soulfly3 said:

Who is/was the "solid kid" gordon was benching, exactly?

You mean the Browns didn't have any solid kids at WR? Were they all degenerates?

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52 minutes ago, Fat Nick said:

THIS is the best article I've seen to-date that outlines the various scenarios re. Bell.  Very interesting re. the potential for a private gentleman's agreement.  

Didn't realize the transition tag was still in play ... though it won't mean much. Really doubt Pittsburgh cares to match the highest bidder for Bell's services.

EDIT:

Most intriguing part of the article (my bolding):

Quote

 

What if the Steelers privately tell Bell that if he doesn’t show up at all in 2018 (saving them $855,000 per week for the remaining seven weeks of the regular season) the Steelers won’t tag him again in 2019?

It would be an unenforceable agreement, and technically a CBA violation, but teams and players routinely strike unenforceable agreements that technically violate the CBA. In this case, the Steelers would avoid spending nearly $6 million on a player they no longer want, and Bell would avoid feeling compelled to show up for the final seven weeks in order to ensure that he’ll become a free agent.

It would be a win-win outcome, with the Steelers letting Bell leave in March and getting consideration toward compensatory draft picks in 2020. And it makes the most sense, even if no one would ever admit that it happened.

So, basically, don’t be shocked if Bell doesn’t show up, and if the Steelers don’t tag him next year. That would be at best circumstantial evidence of a wink-nod agreement that allows Bell to get to free agency without forcing him or the team to continue a relationship that neither side seems to be interested in continuing.

 


Doesn't seem so crazy laid out like that.

Edited by Doug B
added detail

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Maybe we found the rare case of someone who can live comfortably on the $31 million already earned and he's not missing the physical abuse as much as he thought he would.

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24 minutes ago, apalmer said:

You mean the Browns didn't have any solid kids at WR? Were they all degenerates?

Correct. We had no solid kids at WR. 

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On 10/13/2018 at 6:48 PM, Soulfly3 said:

callaway is just trying to be the hero. think as time goes on he'll relax a bit more, stop worrying about 60yd tds every play, and focus on whatever is thrown at him.

i think the kid has MONSTER potential and should realize it pretty well.

 

Just now, Soulfly3 said:

Correct. We had no solid kids at WR. 

 

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11 minutes ago, Dizzy said:

Maybe we found the rare case of someone who can live comfortably on the $31 million already earned and he's not missing the physical abuse as much as he thought he would.

I think it's more a case of Bell wanting to make considerably more than he's making now and being afraid he'll get hurt and miss that payday.  If he was "comfortable" with the $31M, he'd just retire.  

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1 hour ago, Fat Nick said:

THIS is the best article I've seen to-date that outlines the various scenarios re. Bell.  Very interesting re. the potential for a private gentleman's agreement.  

If you're Bell, do you trust this to play out this way (with regards to the "secret" agreement to not sign/not tag again part)?

Let's suppose this deal is made, secretly.  Bell doesn't report, Pitt avoids a possible locker room issue, saves another $6-7M that can (I believe) be rolled over into 2019.

Then the 2019 off-season rolls around.  If you're Pittsburgh in this scenario, the smart thing to do is tag Bell again, secret agreement be damned.  Bell not signing at all in 2018 means his tag number in 2019 would be $14.5M again; the exact same amount of cap room that you should have been able to roll over from 2018 because you couldn't spend it on Bell.  If Pitt tags him again, they have the ability to sign/trade him and get more than a comp pick.  If they tag him and he refuses to sign, they are still operating with their full 2019 cap.

If you're Bell, you gain NOTHING by agreeing to this secret deal.  Why would he do this?

Edited by Bayhawks

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1 minute ago, Dizzy said:

Maybe we found the rare case of someone who can live comfortably on the $31 million already earned and he's not missing the physical abuse as much as he thought he would.

I think it also this from earlier this year

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/todd-gurley-alvin-kamara-geeked-about-guinea-pig-leveon-bell-setting-the-rb-market/ar-BBIjrzf

Quote

“I told him I can’t wait till you get your contract, because I’m going to be right behind you,” Kamara said, per ESPN’s Jeremy Fowler. “He was like, ‘You have to get what you deserve, what you’re worth.’ With him being able to do that, for him being the guinea pig, I guess, get all his money and get all his worth, I think it’s going to bring the position back.”

Bell has reportedly divulged his secret plan to Gurley and LeSean McCoy and says they “kind of root for me” now. “There are a lot of things that we do. I just feel we should be a little more appreciated,” he said.

He's got the pressure of living up to changing how RB contracts are done and to not let down his peers. 

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18 minutes ago, Bayhawks said:

If you're Bell, do you trust this to play out this way (with regards to the "secret" agreement to not sign/not tag again part)?

Let's suppose this deal is made, secretly.  Bell doesn't report, Pitt avoids a possible locker room issue, saves another $6-7M that can (I believe) be rolled over into 2019.

Then the 2019 off-season rolls around.  If you're Pittsburgh in this scenario, the smart thing to do is tag Bell again, secret agreement be damned.  Bell not signing at all in 2018 means his tag number in 2019 would be $14.5M again; the exact same amount of cap room that you should have been able to roll over from 2018 because you couldn't spend it on Bell.  If Pitt tags him again, they have the ability to sign/trade him and get more than a comp pick.  If they tag him and he refuses to sign, they are still operating with their full 2019 cap.

If you're Bell, you gain NOTHING by agreeing to this secret deal.  Why would he do this?

Do you think that's worth it to the Steelers to go through this clown show for a 2nd straight season though?  I don't.  I think Tomlin would either kill a reporter or quit before he got asked Bell questions for another season.

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