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Le'Veon Bell

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15 hours ago, menobrown said:

 

Regarding the Colts, here is Ballard again sort of answering a question on if he'd go after Bell or AB: Ballard on AB and Bell

 

 

Sure doesn't sound like Ballard is interested in bringing in either player.

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20 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

Sure doesn't sound like Ballard is interested in bringing in either player.

Which jives with what a few Colts beat writers I follow have been saying all season on Bell and lately on AB.

I think the Gase hire is also bad news for Leveon. Gase seems to run more of a RBBC approach and  judging by some of the players he jettisoned out of Miami I don't see them paying Bell what he is looking for, at least what he is expecting now.

Also was thinking of this yesterday when I heard Melvin Gordon say he was waiting for Bell to sign, seeming to assume Bell would help the RB pay landscape. I'm not so sure we don't see some RB pay regression vs last year. I honestly think if Arizona had to do over again they'd not have extended David Johnson. I think the Rams would still have extended Gurley but seeing how productive their system is for RB's it's reasonable to think they might have had some second thoughts lately.

If you study RB's on their second contracts it's a pretty low performing group. I'll remove DJ and Gurley since they were not really playing on their extension and here is the list of Rb's who last year played on their second contracts and I'm limiting this just to contracts with average of $5m plus a year.

Freeman

McCoy

McKinnon

Lamar Miller

Duke Johnson

Gio

Hyde

Dion just missed $5M cut but so close I'll throw him in the mix.

Sure does not look like good business paying big money on second contracts to RB's but also I'm just not seeing a team right now that is going to pay Bell the kind of money someone who just said no thanks for $14.5M for one season is expecting.  Only takes one,  just hard to pinpoint who that might be right now-kind of always assumed it would be the Jets until the Gase hire.

 

 

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Le'Veon Bell - RB -  Steelers

The New York Daily News' Manish Mehta reports the Jets will not "break the bank" to sign Le'Veon Bell.

Mehta does believe the Jets are interested in signing Bell, but he writes they "won’t adopt a do-whatever-it-takes approach" to get him. Given the replaceability of running backs, it does not make sense for the Jets to go all out to get Bell, but it always possible their tune changes when negotiations really begin in earnest in the coming weeks. Bell reportedly turned down a Steelers offer which included $33 million guaranteed last summer and gave up $14.5 million by sitting out the 2018 season. It is far from a given he will be able to get that money back on the open market.

Related: Jets

Source: New York Daily News

Jan 31 - 10:59 AM

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Bell certainly has not helped his case since his holdout started, assuming he still wants to get paid max dollars.

There are a lot of questions about his passion for the game and his true desire to play football, and I think concerns with him getting his big (guaranteed) payday and never working hard after that are totally legitimate.  There's also concerns with him losing a step and his injury history.  He should have been working hard this season on his own, and making it clear that he's ready to work.  But instead of videos of him staying in-shape and working out there's videos of him jet skiing and in strip clubs slapping ###.

At this point, he'll be lucky to get more than one-year guaranteed, and probably for not more than $11M-$12M.      

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25 minutes ago, Buttonhook said:

Bell certainly has not helped his case since his holdout started, assuming he still wants to get paid max dollars.

There are a lot of questions about his passion for the game and his true desire to play football, and I think concerns with him getting his big (guaranteed) payday and never working hard after that are totally legitimate.  There's also concerns with him losing a step and his injury history.  He should have been working hard this season on his own, and making it clear that he's ready to work.  But instead of videos of him staying in-shape and working out there's videos of him jet skiing and in strip clubs slapping ###.

At this point, he'll be lucky to get more than one-year guaranteed, and probably for not more than $11M-$12M.      

My guess is the Steelers would be willing to match an offer like that. 

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47 minutes ago, Buttonhook said:

Bell certainly has not helped his case since his holdout started, assuming he still wants to get paid max dollars.

There are a lot of questions about his passion for the game and his true desire to play football, and I think concerns with him getting his big (guaranteed) payday and never working hard after that are totally legitimate.  There's also concerns with him losing a step and his injury history.  He should have been working hard this season on his own, and making it clear that he's ready to work.  But instead of videos of him staying in-shape and working out there's videos of him jet skiing and in strip clubs slapping ###.

At this point, he'll be lucky to get more than one-year guaranteed, and probably for not more than $11M-$12M.      

But instead of videos of him staying in-shape and working out there's videos of him jet skiing and in strip clubs slapping ###...LOL, my favorite part. 

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43 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

My guess is the Steelers would be willing to match an offer like that. 

Interesting take.  I hope they realize their money will be better spent on other more pressing positions of need. 

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3 minutes ago, Buttonhook said:

Interesting take.  I hope they realize their money will be better spent on other more pressing positions of need. 

As much as I like Conner and Samuels I think the Steelers would love to still have LeVeon especially if AB is traded.   I don't see it happening because I think Bell is going to get a multi-year deal though I think it will be less than the Steelers offer last year.    

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14 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

As much as I like Conner and Samuels I think the Steelers would love to still have LeVeon especially if AB is traded.   I don't see it happening because I think Bell is going to get a multi-year deal though I think it will be less than the Steelers offer last year.    

Guy cost himself $15mm last year and will now prob take a deal less than if he had played this season well. 

Could've spent the year putting out videos lifting, training, etc - but there isn't much out there. I'm sure he's still in good shape, but whatever, just played so poorly. 

This man cost himself $20-$25mm, such a moron. His agent def lost his chance at adding to his clientele too. 

 

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2018 did nothing to enhance Bell's contract negotiations for 2019. It was ugly all around every time Mr. Bell was in the news and J. Conner played much better than most expected. @menobrown stated it well that there were not many highly paid running backs that overproduced their contracts. Gurley, one of the top backs and another recently signed to big money gets hurt and misses games and an out-of-shape C. J. Anderson who was cut repeatedly gets signed last minute and plays very well.

Most NFL teams are setting up to run even more RBBC and it just seems like Bell will be hard pressed to get as good of an offer as he had under the Tag.

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20 minutes ago, Stephen Holloway said:

and an out-of-shape C. J. Anderson who was cut repeatedly gets signed last minute and plays very well.

This is an excellent point.

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Another very recent example is Damien Williams, an undrafted free agent running back. In his previous four seasons, he had 133 carries and only two games with 10 or more carries. Hunt gets suspended, Ware is hurt and suddenly Williams becomes a bell-cow back. He was already a good receiver and he achieved great success.

I am a huge LeVeon Bell fan, but I do believe that most owners are not going to be offering what everyone thought they would last August as soon as he became available. As a dynasty owner (and holder all season) I have concerns that he will again be a malcontent in 2019.

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The dynasty question here is, ride him and hope he has a big year and then dump him or dump him immediately upon signing. Hold too long and get nothing.

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21 hours ago, Stephen Holloway said:

2018 did nothing to enhance Bell's contract negotiations for 2019. It was ugly all around every time Mr. Bell was in the news and J. Conner played much better than most expected. @menobrown stated it well that there were not many highly paid running backs that overproduced their contracts. Gurley, one of the top backs and another recently signed to big money gets hurt and misses games and an out-of-shape C. J. Anderson who was cut repeatedly gets signed last minute and plays very well.

Most NFL teams are setting up to run even more RBBC and it just seems like Bell will be hard pressed to get as good of an offer as he had under the Tag.

I'm not arguing one way or the other for bell but the counterpoint is

Bell missed the season, steelers missed the playoffs

Gurley got hurt, rams offense got worse

Chiefs lost hunt, were 9-2 with him and 4-3 without him. 

David johnson got hurt in 2017, cardinals went 8-8 with a healthy palmer and fitz

The giants added Barkley and overcame eli to improve from 3-13 to 5-11. Ok maybe that's not a perfect example. 

Damien williams actually out produced hunt but maybe that's because defenses changed coverages towards hill.  Hill averaged over 100 yards a game with hit in the lineup and 81 per game with williams.  

Stud backs are good to have.  Stud linebackers are good to have. Stud players are good in general. 

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1 hour ago, bostonfred said:

I'm not arguing one way or the other for bell but the counterpoint is

Bell missed the season, steelers missed the playoffs

Gurley got hurt, rams offense got worse

Chiefs lost hunt, were 9-2 with him and 4-3 without him. 

David johnson got hurt in 2017, cardinals went 8-8 with a healthy palmer and fitz

The giants added Barkley and overcame eli to improve from 3-13 to 5-11. Ok maybe that's not a perfect example. 

Damien williams actually out produced hunt but maybe that's because defenses changed coverages towards hill.  Hill averaged over 100 yards a game with hit in the lineup and 81 per game with williams.  

Stud backs are good to have.  Stud linebackers are good to have. Stud players are good in general. 

This sums up how I feel too

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On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 11:16 AM, menobrown said:

Freeman - injured

McCoy - on his 3rd contract actually and 30 years old now. Was studly during his 2nd and part of his 3rd contract.

McKinnon - injured, and hardly a highly prized FA.

Lamar Miller - pretty meh results and definitely below expectations although he's running behind one of the worst lines in the league

Duke Johnson - 3rd down back

Gio - 3rd down back

Hyde - Hardly big money, and an easily tradeable and cuttable contract.

This strikes me as the same arguments rehashed over and over again for like 100 pages now. When the counterpoint is that there have been very few to no stud runningbacks before the last 2~3 years getting drafted, therefore very few good/stud RBs getting 2nd contracts. Gurley & DJ finally got theirs. Zeke, Gordon and Bell will probably get theirs soon. In 2~3 years will be seeing guys like Mixon, Cook, Kamara, McCaffrey, Conner, etc. resetting the market.

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1 minute ago, Buckna said:

This strikes me as the same arguments rehashed over and over again for like 100 pages now. When the counterpoint is that there have been very few to no stud runningbacks before the last 2~3 years getting drafted, therefore very few good/stud RBs getting 2nd contracts. Gurley & DJ finally got theirs. Zeke, Gordon and Bell will probably get theirs soon. In 2~3 years will be seeing guys like Mixon, Cook, Kamara, McCaffrey, Conner, etc. resetting the market.

Ok, not sure of your point, but if you say so.

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Le'Veon Bell - RB -  Steelers

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette's Gerry Dulac reports the Steelers are considering using the transition tag on Le'Veon Bell in an effort to trade him.

To be frank, this line of thought does not make much sense. Bell would first have to sign the transition tag for any trade to be completed, locking him into another one-year deal at likely less money than the one he walked away from last season. He could sign a long-term deal with his new team, but that would require something of a leap of faith. Furthermore, teams are allowed to negotiate and agree to offer sheets with transition tagged players. Once that happens, the Steelers would either have to match, which they reportedly have no interest in doing, or receive zero compensation. It is likely Pittsburgh will have to settle for a compensatory pick in 2020 as compensation for Bell.

Source: Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Feb 7 - 1:07 PM

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2019 at 3:48 PM, menobrown said:

Ok, not sure of your point, but if you say so.

Basically your "evidence" about resigning RB's was pointless. The list of runningbacks on their second contract is small because there has been a dearth of talent at the position for a good long while. To make your point, you used guys that got injured for the entire year, non-bell cow 3rd down backs, and one guy who totally contradicts your assertion in McCoy to say that signing RB's to 2nd contracts is a bad proposition.

I didn't even touch upon that tons of players at other positions are signed to second contracts (especially FA's) and under-perform those contracts.

Edited by Buckna

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20 minutes ago, Faust said:

To be frank, this line of thought does not make much sense. Bell would first have to sign the transition tag for any trade to be completed, locking him into another one-year deal at likely less money than the one he walked away from last season. He could sign a long-term deal with his new team, but that would require something of a leap of faith. Furthermore, teams are allowed to negotiate and agree to offer sheets with transition tagged players. Once that happens, the Steelers would either have to match, which they reportedly have no interest in doing, or receive zero compensation. It is likely Pittsburgh will have to settle for a compensatory pick in 2020 as compensation for Bell.

 

Sure it does if I have this correct. They transition him. If he doesn't sign he doesn't play. What do they care if he plays or not? They can screw him over by applying this tag. They can actually tag him for less than last year.

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1 minute ago, lod001 said:

Sure it does if I have this correct. They transition him. If he doesn't sign he doesn't play. What do they care if he plays or not? They can screw him over by applying this tag. They can actually tag him for less than last year.

There's going to be some major restructuring of the CBA next time it comes around. There's good faith, and there's playing by really skewed rules. Whoever posted that thread about the work stoppage wasn't being hyperbolic.  

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Memo to Jets: Please do not sign or trade for this guy. Believe it or not, Le'Veon Bell might be partially a product of the system, and you don't have half the line the Steelers have.  

 

Edited by rockaction

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8 minutes ago, Buckna said:

Basically your "evidence" about resigning RB's was pointless. The list of runningbacks on their second contract is small because there has been a dearth of talent at the position for a good long while. To make your point, you used guys that got injured for the entire year, non-bell cow 3rd down backs, and one guy who totally contradicts your assertion in McCoy to say that signing RB's to 2nd contracts is a bad proposition.

I didn't even touch upon that tons of players at other positions are signed to second contracts (especially FA's) and under-perform those contracts.

I presented no evidence of anything. I pointed out that RB's on the second contract are not performing well. You interepret that how you wish but I'm making no claims to anything. What you can't say, is that what I presented was false. You can jump from fact they did not perform well to making excuses for the underperformance of RB's on that second contract. Like I said earlier, ok. But I find it funny that all I did was list RB's that have not performed well on second big contract, which last year was basically all of them, and you are quick to take that as evidence of me trying to build some kind of case. Absurd. It's an observation,  an observation I expect most NFL FO's to make as well.

If you view my observations as pointless do us both a favor and put me on your ignore list.

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1 hour ago, lod001 said:

Sure it does if I have this correct. They transition him. If he doesn't sign he doesn't play. What do they care if he plays or not? They can screw him over by applying this tag. They can actually tag him for less than last year.

It doesn't make sense for the Steelers (IMO) because if they transition tag him and he signs with another team the Steelers have 2 options: match the offer or dont match the offer.  If they don't match the offer they get nothing for him.  If they just let him walk as an FA they would at least get a comp pick in 2020 (depending on other FA signing).  Letting him walk and being done with the L. Bell saga seems best to me.

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19 hours ago, lod001 said:

Sure it does if I have this correct. They transition him. If he doesn't sign he doesn't play. What do they care if he plays or not? They can screw him over by applying this tag. They can actually tag him for less than last year.

You do not have it correct.  The transition tag is for $14.5M, but if Pitt were to be stupid enough to try this, they’d argue that it should be $9.5.  It’d be challenged through arbitration.  In any event, Bell is free to negotiate with other teams, and if/when he signs an offer, Pitt would get the chance to match the offer.  If Pitt matched, they can’t trade Bell to that team.  If Pitt doesn’t match the offer, Bell goes to the new team, and Pitt gets no compensation, no pick from the other team, no comp pick, nothing.

The only way this works for Pitt is if Bell decides to help them out & signs the transition tag and allows them to trade him.  I’m sure he’ll do that, because he doesn’t seem like he wants to be a FA and try to get as much money as possible.  He probably doesn’t have my hard feelings towards the team for screwing with him after he put up All-Pro numbers for a bargain price for years.  (that is sarcasm, I think that Bell does have hard feelings, and he does think the Steelers screwed him over after he played great for them for years, vastly outperforming his contract)

Edited by Bayhawks
clarification

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15 hours ago, Bayhawks said:

You do not have it correct.  The transition tag is for $14.5M, but if Pitt were to be stupid enough to try this, they’d argue that it should be $9.5.  It’d be challenged through arbitration.  In any event, Bell is free to negotiate with other teams, and if/when he signs an offer, Pitt would get the chance to match the offer.  If Pitt matched, they can’t trade Bell to that team.  If Pitt doesn’t match the offer, Bell goes to the new team, and Pitt gets no compensation, no pick from the other team, no comp pick, nothing.

The only way this works for Pitt is if Bell decides to help them out & signs the transition tag and allows them to trade him.  I’m sure he’ll do that, because he doesn’t seem like he wants to be a FA and try to get as much money as possible.  He probably doesn’t have my hard feelings towards the team for screwing with him after he put up All-Pro numbers for a bargain price for years.

Give me a break.  He was the highest paid RB by far in 2017 and had he signed his tender last year would have been the highest paid in 2018.  He was also offered long term contracts both years with guaranteed money which he declined.   That's fine, the deals weren't to his liking,  but you make it sound like he was being asked to play for peanuts.

He also was only All-Pro twice in his 5 seasons with the Steelers, only played in all 16 games in 1 of those seasons, and oh yeah he was suspended TWICE for smoking dope.

Yep LeVeon has been a choir boy and those bad old Steelers mistreated him by paying/offering him more money than any other RB in the league.

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13 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Give me a break.  He was the highest paid RB by far in 2017 and had he signed his tender last year would have been the highest paid in 2018.  He was also offered long term contracts both years with guaranteed money which he declined.   That's fine, the deals weren't to his liking,  but you make it sound like he was being asked to play for peanuts.

He also was only All-Pro twice in his 5 seasons with the Steelers, only played in all 16 games in 1 of those seasons, and oh yeah he was suspended TWICE for smoking dope.

Yep LeVeon has been a choir boy and those bad old Steelers mistreated him by paying/offering him more money than any other RB in the league.

I thought it was clear that what I was posting was the way Bell would feel about helping the Steelers out, i.e.-because he felt they hadn't been fair with him, that he wouldn't be inclined to help them out.  I will go back and edit my post to make that more clear.

"only All-Pro twice in his 5 seasons?"  There's only 1 current Steeler who has been an All-Pro more than Bell's twice: Antonio Brown.  Roethlisberger has NEVER been an All-Pro, IIRC, Polamalu was only All-Pro 4 times in his 12 year career, etc.  Being an All-Pro isn't easy, and it's weird to say "he was only an All-Pro 40% of his career, as if that's a negative.:confused:

As far as him being a choir boy, I'm not sure what that was in response to.  I never said he was one.  But, for the record, the Steelers have had a lot of players who aren't choir boys, so I'm not sure how that's relevant.

BTW-the article Faust linked pretty much confirmed what I posted.  The transition tag idea only works for Pitt if Bell allows it to work, and that would go against what he has been gearing towards, which is having his salary determined by an open market, where multiple teams are able to compete for his services.  It just doesn't make sense for Pitt to use the transition tag, as it can only end up 1/3 ways:  1-Bell signs the tag & then Pitt trades him (which Bell won't do b/c he loses all control there), 2-Bell doesn't sign the tag, but gets an offer from another team that Pitt matches and they have to keep Bell (which is unlikely, but if it does happen, now they have 2 RBs-and a lot of money tied up at the position), 3-Bell doesn't sign the tag, but gets an offer from another team that Pitt doesn't match & Pitt gets no compensation for losing Bell.

Edited by Bayhawks

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Make it stop.

14 hours ago, Faust said:

nside the next potential fight between Le'Veon Bell and the Steelers

Quote

 

Talks with several NFL sources paint the transition tag as the Steelers' risk-reward plight that could involve the NFLPA, the NFL management council and an independent arbitrator.

...Bell has played under one tag, worth $12.1 million in 2017. A previously tagged player of one season is due 120 percent of his previous salary on a new tag, according to the collective bargaining agreement. That would put Bell at $14.5 million.

But the Steelers can argue that Bell's transition tag is closer to $9.5 million. The logic seems to be that since Bell sat out, the original transition formula resets.

The spirit of the system calls for incremental increases in franchise or transition pay -- 120 percent for the second year, 144 percent for the third. If Bell's holdout prompts the Steelers to utilize gray area to massage tag structure, the NFLPA would fight them on it.

...Article 10, Section 2-B of the CBA, which states that the third tag pays the average of the top five salaries "for players at the position with the highest such average." The CBA gives an example of kickers on a third tag getting quarterback money.

That would put Bell well over $20 million for 2019. The Steelers won't pay that. Teams can target Bell on a non-exclusive franchise tag but at the cost of two first-round picks, which no one is paying.

But once again, Bell's sitting out 2018 can change the interpretation. Section 2 also references salary applicable to the "most recently negotiated player contract," leaving one industry source believing that Bell's franchise tag would be $14.5 million again (with the standard 120 percent increase from his 2017 deal).

Either way, Bell must feel confident enough in the language that the Steelers wouldn't use that tag. Even at $14.5 million, the Steelers must allocate that cap space for a player who isn't signing.

The threat of Bell sitting out a second year would be very real at that point.

What about the Steelers matching an offer from another team, then trading him?

In theory, a signed player can be traded. Let’s assume Bell would be under contract with the Steelers at that point if he signs the offer sheet matched by Pittsburgh. But many sources I’ve spoken to agree that such a move would violate the spirit of the CBA and the tag process. And why would a new team agree to giving up picks when it can structure an offer it knows the Steelers won’t want to match? If the Steelers balk, they get Bell without draft compensation.

All these scenarios would require major cooperation from Bell’s camp. Based on how 2018 shook out, that would be at least a mild upset.

And who knows, they might keep Bell on a team-friendly deal. Tagging Bell again helps the Steelers control the situation.

Why is the transition tag a bad idea for the Steelers?

The Steelers likely get no draft compensation if they tag him and don't match an outside offer. It has been written that the Steelers can use the transition as a way to trade Bell. But only Bell actually signing the transition tag can enable a trade, according to multiple people with direct knowledge of NFL contracts.

By doing so, Bell would forfeit his rights and give the Steelers control of where he goes and how he gets there.

That's not happening with a player with the conviction to sit out a year.

A league source told me that if a player signs his transition and gets traded to a new team, the franchise tag designation starts all over again, essentially placing Bell in the same franchise vortex he fought to avoid.

Basically, the Steelers and another team would have to set up one elaborate wink-wink deal with Bell to execute a sign-and-trade.

Then how do the Steelers get draft picks out of this?

The cleanest way remains letting Bell walk to earn a compensatory pick for 2020. A lucrative contract for Bell could equal a third-round pick.

...If the Steelers place the transition tag on Bell and push for the lower number, how will this play out before free agency?

The NFLPA would likely file a grievance against the NFL's management council alleging fraudulent use of the tag. That would spark a special master hearing to happen in early March before free agency. An independent arbitrator would handle it.

Who wins in that case?

It's hard to say that either side comes out of this mess victorious. If arbitration rules in Bell's favor, he gets the higher number he most likely won't play on anyway. If the Steelers win the ruling, they gain precedent but not much more.

And both sides move on, exhausted.

 

If you look into this, the only 'logical' outcome is the Steelers let Bell walk and get a compensatory draft pick.

We've seen enough madness out of this situation to the point it could go in any direction but it would be best for all sides to just let him walk and I think that will happen.

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1 minute ago, Bayhawks said:

I thought it was clear that what I was posting was the way Bell would feel about helping the Steelers out, i.e.-because he felt they hadn't been fair with him, that he wouldn't be inclined to help them out.  I will go back and edit my post to make that more clear.

BTW-the article Faust linked pretty much confirmed what I posted.  The transition tag idea only works for Pitt if Bell allows it to work, and that would go against what he has been gearing towards, which is having his salary determined by an open market, where multiple teams are able to compete for his services.  It just doesn't make sense for Pitt to use the transition tag, as it can only end up 1/3 ways:  1-Bell signs the tag & then Pitt trades him (which Bell won't do b/c he loses all control there), 2-Bell doesn't sign the tag, but gets an offer from another team that Pitt matches and they have to keep Bell (which is unlikely, but if it does happen, now they have 2 RBs-and a lot of money tied up at the position), 3-Bell doesn't sign the tag, but gets an offer from another team that Pitt doesn't match & Pitt gets no compensation for losing Bell.

Ok fair enough.

It has been pretty clear that Bell is not interested in helping the Steelers out. He's only looking out for himself which is what he should be doing.

As for the transition tag I agree that it makes no sense for the Steelers to use it unless they really, really want to keep Bell no matter what it costs which seems unlikely.

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2 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

Ok fair enough.

It has been pretty clear that Bell is not interested in helping the Steelers out. He's only looking out for himself which is what he should be doing.

As for the transition tag I agree that it makes no sense for the Steelers to use it unless they really, really want to keep Bell no matter what it costs which seems unlikely.

Agreed.  Best case for Steelers, IMO, is for them to let him go and get the 3rd-round comp pick (then make it work with AB, so they can use the extra $14.5M they rolled over from Bell not playing in '18 to boost their D).

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6 hours ago, Godsbrother said:

As for the transition tag I agree that it makes no sense for the Steelers to use it unless they really, really want to keep Bell no matter what it costs which seems unlikely.

Agreed.  They had the option to keep him "no matter what it costs" last year by given Bell the contract he wanted.  That's why it seems very illogical to me that the Steelers would assign the transition tag to Bell.  Just walk away and get the comp pick in 2020.

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17 hours ago, Steeler said:

Agreed.  They had the option to keep him "no matter what it costs" last year by given Bell the contract he wanted.  That's why it seems very illogical to me that the Steelers would assign the transition tag to Bell.  Just walk away and get the comp pick in 2020.

Say the Steelers actually sign a significant FA  this offseason - like ILB CJ Mosley.  They tried to sign Hightower in 2017. 

Since the comp pick process compares the FAs you sign vs the FAs you lose in some manner that the NFL won't disclose it's possible Pittsburgh will not get a 3rd round comp pick for Bell.

That may be a part of Pittsburgh's reasons to tag Bell and hope to get a draft pick in this draft for him.  

 

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1 hour ago, moondog said:

Say the Steelers actually sign a significant FA  this offseason - like ILB CJ Mosley.  They tried to sign Hightower in 2017. 

Since the comp pick process compares the FAs you sign vs the FAs you lose in some manner that the NFL won't disclose it's possible Pittsburgh will not get a 3rd round comp pick for Bell.

That may be a part of Pittsburgh's reasons to tag Bell and hope to get a draft pick in this draft for him.  

 

You are right, and I almost said "potential comp pic" in my previous post, but that's the nature of comp pics.  

All things considered I still think it makes sense to avoid the drama of transition tagging Bell.  If they go this route part of the process would be Bell signing with Pitt and then getting traded.... there is little evidence Bell would want to sign with Pitt under any circumstances.  If they don't tag him he can sign with anybody.  If they tag him the goal would presumably be to get a draft pick from the team who would otherwise sign him, right?  Would Bell trust the Steelers to trade him to that team?  I dunno, again, it seems better to me to just get this Bell situation behind them.

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On 2/9/2019 at 10:27 AM, moondog said:

Say the Steelers actually sign a significant FA  this offseason - like ILB CJ Mosley.  They tried to sign Hightower in 2017. 

Since the comp pick process compares the FAs you sign vs the FAs you lose in some manner that the NFL won't disclose it's possible Pittsburgh will not get a 3rd round comp pick for Bell.

That may be a part of Pittsburgh's reasons to tag Bell and hope to get a draft pick in this draft for him.  

 

This is an excellent point though I think assigning the transition tag on Bell would mean that money counts against the cap which might prevent the Steelers from making any offers to significant FAs anyway.

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46 minutes ago, Godsbrother said:

This is an excellent point though I think assigning the transition tag on Bell would mean that money counts against the cap which might prevent the Steelers from making any offers to significant FAs anyway.

This is correct; just like Pitt had to have $14.5M free in 2018 for Bell if he chose to sign the franchise tag, they’d have to keep $14.5M free in 2019 in case he chooses to sign the transition tag.  That would make it harder to sign big FA’s.

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The Steelers aren’t going to transition tag Bell. They are just messing with him. This thing got really nasty. Let’s hope everyone can just move on.

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29 minutes ago, Gandalf said:

The Steelers aren’t going to transition tag Bell. They are just messing with him. This thing got really nasty. Let’s hope everyone can just move on.

Agreed, but for some reason, it continues to be a talking point.  But, I'm not sure how this is "messing with Bell."  The transition tag price will be $14.5M (although, IF this were to happen, Pitt would argue that it should be $9.5M; the NFLPA would challenge that, and Pitt would likely lose in arbitration), and it allows Bell to solicit offers from other teams.  This would be the best case for Bell; he gets to be a FA and try to get the highest offer, but has a guaranteed $14.5M to come back to if he doesn't get an offer that is worth more than that.  

If this is Pitt trying to "mess with Bell," they aren't very good at it.

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Pittsburgh lost a season in ben's window, a season in Antonio Brown's window, a season or more from bell and took a huge hit in the locker room. 

The only long term benefit they got from it was the message they sent to the players and their agents about negotiating. 

If they make this easy for bell, they'll lose that too.

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The Steelers oughta make it as hard as possible on Le’Veon to discourage future malcontents. Think of it as Belichick trading malcontents to the Cardinals and Browns of a few years ago. 

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Bell's career earnings are barely above what he just left on the table this year. I would not really be concerned with feeling the need to play hardball with him because this strategy is not one that anyone is going to look to duplicate anytime soon. He took his stand and he suffered enough already and I don't think the Steelers need to continue to put the screws to him to make this be a one time thing and not a trend. 

Now saying all that I think RB's are missing the boat on when and where to take a stand. Bell  held out the wrong year and if he knew what he does know regarding franchise tag rules he might have done things different.  The year he should have held out, for 10 games max,  was 2016. All he'd need to is play 6 games, he'd have lost "only" $820K or so and still accrued a full season.  If you are not a high first round RB, and you are heading into year 4 making under $1M a year I'd strongly consider taking this approach, could even see someone like Melvin Gordon looking at something like this at his $5.6M pay next year.  Should Bell land a Gurley type contract, which would serve as evidence that sitting out for financial reasons won't hurt you in future contract talks, I think RB's not taking this approach in the future is a huge mistake.Sit out when you your pay is around $1m or less, not when it balloons to that almost every week.

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34 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Bell's career earnings are barely above what he just left on the table this year

This doesn’t get discussed enough. Le’Veon balked at a year 6 salary that was about equal to his combined payment years 1 through 5. And now, teams can low ball him because what’s he gonna do, hold out year 7? 

My theory has been and always will be he was out of shape in 2018. If Le’Veon played 2018 for 14.54M, looked fine and happened to get hurt, so be it. He’d still get paid as a FA in 2019. But if he were to play in 2018 and looked done, he wouldn’t get paid as a 2019 FA. He wants his lump sum of guaranteed cash before we get a glimpse of what’s left in the tank. 20 months removed from averaging 4.0 per carry behind a top OL, I want no part of him over 10M/year.

2018 wasn’t a total loss though. He came out with new rap songs!

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2 hours ago, bostonfred said:

Pittsburgh lost a season in ben's window, a season in Antonio Brown's window, a season or more from bell and took a huge hit in the locker room. 

The only long term benefit they got from it was the message they sent to the players and their agents about negotiating

If they make this easy for bell, they'll lose that too.

What is the "long-term benefit?"  That if a player signs with Pitt, the team will gladly employ them while they are underpaid, then use every tool at their disposal to squeeze every last drop of value out of the player, and the player be damned?

I get that what Pitt did what completely in accordance with the CBA (I've been reminded of it many times when I've said that Bell likely feels that Pittsburgh has screwed him over), but just because it aligns with the CBA, and makes smart sense for the team, doesn't make it right.  And, I see no benefit for Pitt, with regards to player negotiations, to come from this.

Do we really think a player is going to say "let's sign/re-sign with Pittsburgh; look at how they treated Bell?"  That's absurd.

And the idea that if they "make it easy" for Bell, they'll lose this imaginary benefit?  Do we really think a player is going to tell his agent "after Pitt used the franchise tag twice on Bell, they then used the transition tag on him; you have to get me on that team?"  Ridiculous.

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Bell was the highest paid player at his position in 2017. The same would have been true for 2018, if not for 11th hour Gurley/DJ deals. But that’s not enough for the mercenary.

When asked about the Bell absence early in the season, one of the Steelers starting OL pointed out “he would be making seven times more than me.” Between statements like this and how the Steelers ransacked Bell’s locker when week 11 passed, I don’t think they’re miss him. 

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1 hour ago, Bayhawks said:

What is the "long-term benefit?"  That if a player signs with Pitt, the team will gladly employ them while they are underpaid, then use every tool at their disposal to squeeze every last drop of value out of the player, and the player be damned?

I get that what Pitt did what completely in accordance with the CBA (I've been reminded of it many times when I've said that Bell likely feels that Pittsburgh has screwed him over), but just because it aligns with the CBA, and makes smart sense for the team, doesn't make it right.  And, I see no benefit for Pitt, with regards to player negotiations, to come from this.

Do we really think a player is going to say "let's sign/re-sign with Pittsburgh; look at how they treated Bell?"  That's absurd.

And the idea that if they "make it easy" for Bell, they'll lose this imaginary benefit?  Do we really think a player is going to tell his agent "after Pitt used the franchise tag twice on Bell, they then used the transition tag on him; you have to get me on that team?"  Ridiculous.

agree with this

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3 hours ago, Edgar said:

Bell was the highest paid player at his position in 2017. The same would have been true for 2018, if not for 11th hour Gurley/DJ deals. But that’s not enough for the mercenary.

When asked about the Bell absence early in the season, one of the Steelers starting OL pointed out “he would be making seven times more than me.” Between statements like this and how the Steelers ransacked Bell’s locker when week 11 passed, I don’t think they’re miss him. 

Fairly obvious, both sides lost on this one.

Saying they didn't miss one of the best players in the league when they just missed the playoffs seems like a bit of denial.

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35 minutes ago, matuski said:

Fairly obvious, both sides lost on this one.

Saying they didn't miss one of the best players in the league when they just missed the playoffs seems like a bit of denial.

I’d say the Steelers missed 10% of their cap more than they missed Le’Veon. If they had Bell, better chance they make playoffs. If they had 10% more cap to put into defense, better chance they make playoffs. 

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59 minutes ago, Edgar said:

I’d say the Steelers missed 10% of their cap more than they missed Le’Veon. If they had Bell, better chance they make playoffs. If they had 10% more cap to put into defense, better chance they make playoffs. 

Right, this was the game they played.. and lost.

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47 minutes ago, matuski said:

Right, this was the game they played.. and lost.

The Steelers didn't low ball Bell, they just couldn't agree on a contract.  Are you saying the Steelers should have given Bell 17M per year like he wanted? 

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