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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (2 Viewers)

Ilov80s said:
Everywhere she has gone people have fawned over her. Name a character she came into contact that didn't fall in love with her (except for those she specifically targetted as slavers or thieves or abusers of the innocent)? Jorah, Snow, Varys, Drogo, all the Unsullied, Missendai,Tyrion, all the varying slaves she freed. that guy who was a warrior and they switched the actor playing him mid-series, etc. . She wasn't just respected, she was worshipped like a God. She would make grand speeches about freedom and crowd surf with freed slaves. Why was she do depressed about defeating the Night King Army? It is what it is and we can just say "mental illness" but so many of the decisions the characters have been making just feel like means to an end for the plot. 
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I go back to the title of the series - A Song of Ice and Fire.

This was the outcome all along - society ripped apart by Ice and Fire - two extremes each doing their own damage.  We saw the Night King as evil - we missed the Fire aspect as being equally evil.

 
Sinn Fein said:
I go back to the title of the series - A Song of Ice and Fire.

This was the outcome all along - society ripped apart by Ice and Fire - two extremes each doing their own damage.  We saw the Night King as evil - we missed the Fire aspect as being equally evil.
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Ice didn't rip apart anything though.  Just was mildly inconvenient there for a time.  But overall, nothing more than a mosquito.

Fire--yeah..that did some damage

 
Psychopav said:
1. Is Arya dead? I think they would have made it clear if so, but that scene with the abandoned streets and the white horse works bunch better if she's dead imo.

2. So it's pretty clear now that Jon is the embodiment of the Song of Ice and Fire, a love song begin by Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.  He is the descendent of chaos on both sides and will ultimately have to tame that wildness.  I bet he survives Dragonfire in the finale, and even odds that either he or (for poetic symmetry) Arya (if she's indeed alive) kills Dany in the end.  Oooh...Or maybe Sansa "sticks her with the pointy end" when she's not looking... He's definitely the Prince that was Promised.  I suppose he'll probably die in the end leaving Tyrion and Sansa to rule.

I'm back to hoping GRRM finishes the books. There's more to the white walkers and the Targaryens than we learn in the show imo.
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I hope he finishes. I’ve read the first 3 and stopped once I knew nothing new was coming out. If he finishes (or another writer finishes it) then I’ll start from page 1 and do the entire series. Until that day, I won’t pick up a single book from this series. There’s no point to me to reading a story that is less than 50/50 to ever conclude.

 
Ilov80s said:
That is what I am saying. After they killed the NK, instead of doing her normal thing where she gives a big speech and acts all queen like, she just pouted and began hating everyone. It was her weird behavior that caused Varys and others to question her. 
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I think she was hurt and pissed that no one in the North gave her any credit for helping to defeat the Night King.  She probably thought, "I lost a dragon and most of my Dothraki and Unsullied for this war, and almost no one showed me any appreciation for it."  Then she lost her two closest friends (Jorah and Missendai) and she was like a ticking time bomb. 

 
Ilov80s said:
Another poster brought up how this turn of events would impact a rewatch. I do wonder if it kind of kills all the Dany storyline. How can we cheer on any of her great highlights when we know she is Joffrey/Euron/Ramsey level terrible? 
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I can get past the story lines and plot holes and character development flaws... What is destroying my enjoyment is the trying too hard to rush through it.  

The thing this show did so well was to ravel all these stories together and draw them out to a tantalizing end.  The frantic unraveling as quickly and as abruptly as possible is really just a shame.  I guess they put themselves in a corner with 6 episodes.

Oh well.  Like I said, still among my favorite series ever.

 
Mark me down as one of the people that thought the skies would be filled with dragons (eggs hatched that we didn't know about or something stupid).  I'm so glad it didn't happen though. 

I think they're tying up the stories nicely without introducing last minute characters to just put a bow on things. 

It's one of the few times a last season is actually written to end.  They're usually trying to keep stories open to hope for another season - this way is perfect IMO.

 
Psychopav said:
2. So it's pretty clear now that Jon is the embodiment of the Song of Ice and Fire, a love song begin by Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen.  He is the descendent of chaos on both sides and will ultimately have to tame that wildness.  I bet he survives Dragonfire in the finale, and even odds that either he or (for poetic symmetry) Arya (if she's indeed alive) kills Dany in the end.  Oooh...Or maybe Sansa "sticks her with the pointy end" when she's not looking... He's definitely the Prince that was Promised.  I suppose he'll probably die in the end leaving Tyrion and Sansa to rule.
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I look at it differently - its not a song about Jon - its a Song about how two forces combined to force a societal re-boot.

Ice - Night King - decimated the North

Fire - Daenerys - decimated King's Landing.  (She has about a 0.01% chance of living now)

The survivors pick up the pieces of a new society.  Samwell writes the Song of Ice and Fire so that future generations will recall what happened and why.

 
supermike80 said:
Ice didn't rip apart anything though.  Just was mildly inconvenient there for a time.  But overall, nothing more than a mosquito.

Fire--yeah..that did some damage
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You are kidding, right?  Night King and the army of the dead ####ed a lot of #### up.  And the North did not have that much to start with...

 
matuski said:
I can get past the story lines and plot holes and character development flaws... What is destroying my enjoyment is the trying too hard to rush through it.  

The thing this show did so well was to ravel all these stories together and draw them out to a tantalizing end.  The frantic unraveling as quickly and as abruptly as possible is really just a shame.  I guess they put themselves in a corner with 6 episodes.

Oh well.  Like I said, still among my favorite series ever.
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I think your point about it being rushed really ties into the flaws with story development, arc, etc. 

 
matuski said:
I can get past the story lines and plot holes and character development flaws... What is destroying my enjoyment is the trying too hard to rush through it.  

The thing this show did so well was to ravel all these stories together and draw them out to a tantalizing end.
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You apparently werent around when there was non stop complaining about how slow Dany was moving across the desert and how boring Arya's training was and how blah blah. 

I get some of the complaints, but people really do ####### ##### about every damn thing

 
Sinn Fein said:
You are kidding, right?  Night King and the army of the dead ####ed a lot of #### up.  And the North did not have that much to start with...
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Seriously?  yes I'm serious.  the NK did NOTHING.....the north is fine.   Kings Landing just went down in flames, cause you see armies mean nothing...just who has the most dragons.   Silly to think otherwise.  The fight was over, and the north carried on like nothing happened. Zero...and I mean zero repercussions from the battle with the NK.  

 
knowledge dropper said:
Prediction:

Dany finally takes her seat on iron throne after defeating all Lannisters and Starks.  An arrow goes straight through her heart. Camera goes to Bronn holding a crossbow. Series ends. 
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I was thinking the same, except it would be Aria. 

Dany goes to the throne room for the 1st time, looks at it, walks around the iron throne, lets her hand touch the edges of it, walks in front ready to take her rightful seat and —bam—Arrow through the heart, and she falls dead into the seat.

Would be a poetic way to get her 99.999999999% of the way to fulfilling her mission. She will sit on the throne, just dead. 

 
the moops said:
You apparently werent around when there was non stop complaining about how slow Dany was moving across the desert and how boring Arya's training was and how blah blah. 

I get some of the complaints, but people really do ####### ##### about every damn thing
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Exactly.....i liked last night alot.....the nk episode....fell a little flat but had lots of awesome too....

 
the moops said:
You apparently werent around when there was non stop complaining about how slow Dany was moving across the desert and how boring Arya's training was and how blah blah. 

I get some of the complaints, but people really do ####### ##### about every damn thing
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Like I said - I never took issue with the way the show was done in the past.

They are not doing this season the way they did the seasons in the past.  Nothing to do with any specific issues about the stories or characters or plot.  Just how poorly they are executing what they had executed so well for 7 seasons.  

It is fine I guess.. they have a long list of rivalries and relationships to tie off.  So they are getting through it as fast as they can.  :shrug:

 
Looks like Dany has lost support from every important person in Westeros except Grey Worm. Gotta admit it. His mad face is super funny to me. Even though I'm pretty sure she's as good as dead, I hope he survives.

 
bradyfan said:
“And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.”  They showed this tonight.
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They did? 

I didn't interpret that prophecy as bro giving her a hug while a tower collapses on them. 

 
Ilov80s said:
I think your point about it being rushed really ties into the flaws with story development, arc, etc. 
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I see those flaws as a result of leaving themselves 6 episodes.

They were doing a good job with all of the above IMHO... and now they are just saying screw it and  trying to get the hell out of here.

 
Ilov80s said:
 All the bad things that happened to her this season were results of her acting totally out of character. When they defeated the Night King she just sulked and slunk back. Normally she would have acted like a queen, put on the pomp, delivered a rousing speech and won everyone over. Nobody would have turned on her if she hadn’t started acting like a totally different character than she had been all series. Why did Missandei die? Because Dany sails into a trap because “she forgot about the iron fleet”. Huh? 

The decisions to get us here were forced imo. 
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There have been plenty of hints in recent seasons of Dany’s true character.  The problem is they crammed too much into these last couple of seasons the writers didn’t let this fully play out on screen.

 
cap'n grunge said:
Arya finds Jamie's body. Does her faceless men trick. Slays Dany on the throne. Jon walks in and sees it. Distraught he kills what he thinks is Jamie but after striking him down is horrified to realize it was Arya.
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Jaime is buried under 7 million tons of rubble. And even if that was not the case, Jaime is an escaped prisoner and would get nowhere near Dany

 
cap'n grunge said:
Arya finds Jamie's body. Does her faceless men trick. Slays Dany on the throne. Jon walks in and sees it. Distraught he kills what he thinks is Jamie but after striking him down is horrified to realize it was Arya.
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How would the face of Jamie get close to Dany? Arya would have a better chance. 

 
PIK95 said:
Were those mail order Dothraki or what? Good thing she was able to replace all the others so quickly that died changing the NK.  

The previews for next week show that she has a crap load of Unsullied again too.  She must have put in an order with Slavers bay after most the others fell at Winterfell.  
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Thought the same thing.  That one image of the surviving forces looked larger than what they started with.

 
need2know said:
grrm said in a recent interview his last book wont end much differently than the show
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I don't expect them to, but there are plenty of character nuggets in the last couple of pages of this thread to get me excited about all the nuance that was lost since the show passed the books.  They were able to get the broad strokes done but it just feels mine there's a lot more to the story that the books will cover.  Things the show just didn't have time to pursue or allow to breath: Dany's descent into madness, Dany and Jon's love story, the fatal mistake that leads Varys to his demise, etc.

 
Sinn Fein said:
I look at it differently - its not a song about Jon - its a Song about how two forces combined to force a societal re-boot.

Ice - Night King - decimated the North

Fire - Daenerys - decimated King's Landing.  (She has about a 0.01% chance of living now)

The survivors pick up the pieces of a new society.  Samwell writes the Song of Ice and Fire so that future generations will recall what happened and why.
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Can't it be both? Great literature has layers.

 
Let's talk about danny.

First, she was nothing without her claim to the throne.  She was raised by her ######## brother to think that was the only thing that mattered. Episode 1 he starts out by saying he'd let the whole dothraki hoarde run a train on her to get the kingdom back. 

She was so defined by her claim to the throne that you can probably recite that whole mother of dragons breaker of chains thing.  Jorah pretty much only ever called her khaleesi. Parents named their kids khaleesi.  Her title became an instant meme when Emilia Clarke went to a basketball game.  It's who she is, and this jon snow aegon targaryen thing threatened to take it all away. 

Second, she's just lost everyone that matters to her.  She let drogo kill her brother, she left dario home, her dothraki buddies all died.  She lost the ability to ever have children because she tried to save drogo. After all she went through with jorah he died protecting her. Miss sandy got killed because of her. Two of her dragons died because she screwed up.  

And now her boyfriend turns out to be her nephew and threatens her claim as queen. That's rough.

Remember that - despite everything she's been through - she's never been rejected.  Drogo took one look at her and was like yup that'll do. Zoro wanted to marry her. Dario lost his mind over her.  Jorah fell for her.  Tyrion travelled across the world and became a slave just to meet her.  Then jon fell for her and she was like ya obv.

But then something happened that had never happened before.  He rejected her.

I'm not saying that getting dumped for the first time excuses the killing of countless innocent people, but it's part of the reason she snapped. 

Third, she's lost her advisors, and is winging it. Jorah, sir barriston, varys and miss sandy are all dead.  She's got tyrion and, uh, drogon i guess.  Grey worm isn't much help, he was as pissed as she was.  When she started burning #### down, he looked up and was like oh, we're doing this now? Cool. And chucked his spear through the unarmed soldier in front of him. 

Lastly, as horrible as it obviously is to kill everyone in the city,  she was hardly the only person to kill lots of people to get the throne.  

Renly fought his brother with a huge army for power.  Stannis killed his brother with a vag demon and used blood magic and burnt his own daughter alive.  Theon killed the dude with the sweet sideburns and burnt a couple kids.  Cersei blew up all of her enemies in the sept to keep power.

People have been doing unthinkable #### to get the throne since the beginning. Yes, what she did was worse than any of those guys, but is it really that shocking that the dragon lady killed a bunch of people with her dragon?  It's kind of what dragon ladies do. Her ancestors burned cities to the ground.  She had burned several people alive, even when her advisers told her not to.

And she was leading the dothraki. This is exactly what they do. We watched them take a city and we saw danny get screwed over when she tried to stop them. The dothraki lay waste to their enemies cities.  This is what Robert wa afraid of when he found out she'd allied with them.  Cersei said terrible things would happen when stannis was at the gates - maybe more rape than burning but stannis didn't have dragons.

I am not excusing the behavior, but it's not bad writing.  Everything good in her had been rocked and every impulse she had was for power and revenge. It was the perfect transformation for her character.  

 
otb_lifer said:
howzabout it's Ser Brienne after she discovers that the tiny twit has her designs set on eliminating Sansa ...
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Arya tells a story from her childhood, shooting her one arrow, over and over.  Arya practicing her archery while everyone else is celebrating, before Gendry proposes to her.  There's an opportunity to bring in her faceless expertise.  Let everyone believe she's dead.  Takes someone else's face (Bron?), kill Dany, walk away with no loose ends.

 
the moops said:
Jaime is buried under 7 million tons of rubble. And even if that was not the case, Jaime is an escaped prisoner and would get nowhere near Dany
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They didn't actually show it fall on them fwiw.  I wouldn't be shocked if the show ended with them rowing a boat to Pentos.

 
tonydead said:
tl:dr the thread to catch up.

Ep1 - 9/10

Ep2 - 9.5/10

Ep3 - 8/10

Ep4 - 7.5/10

Another episode that could have been way better. 

No way ships can sneak up on a flying dragon, no way.  Dragon can and should be flying 1000 feet above doing surveillance.  No way the ships get close enough to hit them with giant cross-bows, lol.  So much better ways to have the dragon killed, could have lured one in during the meeting.  No way Dany takes that meeting with Ceresi AFTER they just just killed her dragon.  So stupid:

"Surrender or my dragon will burn the city down!"

"We just killed one of your dragons and it wasn't really that hard."

Major events happening backwards of logic in this episode.
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Ep5 - 10+/10

From top to bottom an outstanding episode.  Lots of blood, death gore and innocent people dying. It was great.  

 
the moops said:
You apparently werent around when there was non stop complaining about how slow Dany was moving across the desert and how boring Arya's training was and how blah blah. 

I get some of the complaints, but people really do ####### ##### about every damn thing
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Why do people always say things like this, as if it's the same folks flip flopping? It's like when they complain about politics: well sorry but YOUR SIDE took some untenable position 3 generations ago so YOU HAVE LOST THE MORAL HIGH GROUND! Lol makes no sense to me.

 
Arya kills Dany as she has been destined to kill the mad queen.  As the hero of both the north, and now the south she is made the protector of the seven realms with Jon embracing his bastarddom, renouncing his claim, as he said all along, and becoming Arya's Hand, just as his adoptive father once was Hand.  Stansa is made Queen of the north.  She retakes the dwarf for her Hand and her husband, wanting nothing to do with any other.  The big blond chick gets rewarded for her service by being appointed regent of one of the realms.  The crazy red-headed northman makes an appearance suckling at the breast of a giant or he joins the big blond chick.  More dragon eggs are found.

 
Lets talk about Cersei deserving a bigger death. 

First of all, no. She wasn't a warrior.  She was a schemer.  Rich, beautiful, powerful, clever and vicious. She didn't need to die in a sword fight. She needed all those things to be taken from her.

All her money that got her the gold company?  Worthless against the dragons. Her dwead piwate wobert boyfriend? His fleet got sunk and he's dead, at the hands of her soulmate. All of her power to command people to keep fighting?  They rang the bells without her. Her clever plan to use magic dragon killing crossbows?  Torched. As vicious as she was? She blew up a sept. Danny burnt down the city.  

Even Frankenmountain was like nope, i've got bigger things to do here.  And he got killed by the guy whose last words in king's landing had been #### the king. Her actions got all 3 of her kids killed and drove the hound away, before he finally came back and killed her last line of defense. 

Everything had been taken from her, exactly as that witch prophesized. And with the city crumbling and burning around her, she sees the man she'd not only pushed away, but asked bronn to kill.  And she wept. 

Seeing Cersei cry and beg for her life to somehow be spared while nobody was listening except jamie who held her until they both died anonymously was the perfect end for the lannister tyranny. 

But wait - where did they die? Was it in the throne room?  No. Buried in the crypts. Where the dragons skulls were. Because when the targaryens were killed the skulls were left down there as nothing more than a memory, a scary story people told their children.  

There - in the heart of kings landing - buried forever - nobody to see them, nobody to save them, and nobody who even would want to - that's exactly how she should have died.  

 
KarmaPolice said:
Wasn't there a S1 scene where Arya was running around beneath the Keep chasing cats for training?  I thought for sure she would head that way and run into Jaime and Cersei.  
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I was thinking that as well. Was really hoping for an Arya/Cersei meet up

tommyboy said:
Either Arya or Jon is going to kill Dany.
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:goodposting:

Sinn Fein said:
I go back to the title of the series - A Song of Ice and Fire.

This was the outcome all along - society ripped apart by Ice and Fire - two extremes each doing their own damage.  We saw the Night King as evil - we missed the Fire aspect as being equally evil.
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This show has been nothing but straight forward, at least the last two seasons. We sit here and speculate all these wild scenarios and in the end the writers follow the path of water, the simplest way to get from point A to point B. This series has always been about the bolded. I'm done thinking outside the box and will leave that for GRRM to do if he ever finishes the books. Next week will be about Jon confronting Dany and resolving once and for a Song of Ice & Fire since he is both.

 
bostonfred said:
Who did things that didn't make sense?

Danny cracked when she found out that the one thing she always had going for her was gone.  The throne was no longer hers by right, and she had never been rejected before.  She even said ok then i'll have to rule by fear instead.  

Grey worm might have been her moral compass, but when one of cersei's men cut his girlfriend's head off in front of him he took it badly. 

Varys was pro danny until he saw danny kill samwises dad and was like uh oh she's bad. He saw jon and decided that was the realms best chance. He died trying to be a hero, which is a fitting end considering his comment to ned in season 1. 

Tyrion wanted to avoid all the death so he sided with danny over varys. That was a mistake, but only because he put all his hopes in his brother's abilities, which has always been his flaw.  

Jon and sir davos and a bunch of other good guys were going to end cersei's reign before looking at each other like are we the baddies?  And then they retreated.  

Jamie came back to be with Cersei and got captured.  Understandable, but i can see calling it lazy writing. But it was his arc. He went from a bad guy, to a bad guy with redeeming qualities, to us hoping he was a good guy with a bad past, but then finding out he was always a deeply flawed good guy who threw his morals and everything else out the window when it came to cersei.

Cersei didn't have milk of the poppy this time, because she wasn't protecting her child from getting killed.  She needed to live because she was trying to keep her unborn baby alive.  She stayed far longer than she should have because she had no other choice and she couldn't believe that she had finally lost.  

Yuron ####### sucks.

The hound had planned to kill his brother since forever.  It was foreshadowed back in early season one. And again in season 7. That was the only thing left driving him. 

The mountain was going to protect and serve cersei over anything else except one thing.  

Qyburn didn't know that and paid the price. 

Arya went to kill the queen then clegane talked her out of it.  She took cover and saw good people die and now she's pissed. 

Everybody's decisions made sense.  You might not agree with them - especially that one character everyone liked who went on an hour long mass murder spree, i know i was like hey, stop that.  But it wasn't out of character.  

And the best part is that they built up lannister vs stark as the big confrontation and targaryen was always just kind of there. This was the real conflict.  Danny and her birthright and her dragons and killing zoron zoro ducksauce and the wizard of blue lips, and killing the masters to take the unsullied, and burning up the dothraki dudes - she's lain waste to everyone who stood in her way.  The lannisters schemed and murdered their way to power and kept it through money and armies. The starks were always the good guys who didn't want the 7 kingdoms. This makes sense. 
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Can't like this enough.

 
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