What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (7 Viewers)

Yankee23Fan said:
When Cersei is in the map room by herself there is a massive crack running from north to south of Westeros. Way too obvious to just be a crack for effect.

Westeros has been shattered.
Click to expand...
Hope that this has not already been pointed out, but I really liked the way they used the map room.

1) The crack you are talking about

2) When Arya and Sandor stop in the room, Ayra is standing on The Three Sisters, and Sandor is on Oldstones.

3) When Cersei and Jamie stop in the room, Cersei is standing on The Neck, and Jaime is on Oldcastle.

 
Mrs. Rannous said:
krista4 said:
It would be great to have Bran have an actual purpose in the show.  But still, given what we’ve been shown, I’d be surprised if anyone but Jon took her out.  That is, if she’s taken out at all.
Click to expand...
True.  I'm not sure that people realize that he doesn't really see the future.  
Click to expand...
Yeah. I like this.

He can't let the people know that he doesn't know...or else, what he does know will not be believed...got it?

Seriously, I view Bran as Merlin in my Malory reading. He can see things - past, present and future - but he can't see everything and all-time or all possibilities. He's good - but not perfect. And, I believe that what he can see influences him to not interact anymore than is absolutely necessary. The reason - when you have blind spots and anything you do can create unknown ripples that may change what you do see - you better be very careful before impacting that possible reality.

It can be viewed like the Uncertainty Principle - the very act of observing impacts that which is observed. Therefore, the more you observe (and reveal those observations to others), the more chance you have to impact & change that which you may want to happen.

He is one of the last of the old magicians, and like Merlin, he is willing to let his time and influence pass - without a fight. As he said, I have no desire...or something similar.

The Red Woman, on the other hand, took a riskier path. It seems to have paid off in the long run...but remember Shireen Baratheon - not good. That is what can happen when too much is made of the Sight's accuracy, and too much is revealed to others in the process. I think Bran is partly silent in order to avoid things like this happening.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
otb_lifer said:
remember those crowd reaction shots that circulated after Arya offed the NK?  that's how i reacted when Euron speared Reaghal, and it will be 100x that Sunday night when this pipsqueak pepperpot is FINALLY given her commupance - i cannot ####### wait!

i have loathed her from s1 ... was never attracted to her arc in any way - and most of that had to do with Clarke having the acting range of a ####### 3 month old pineapple ... so wooden and hilariously limited - i still contend that Greyworn and Miss Sandy were kept around just to make her look downright flamboyant in comparision (those 2 were so laughably lame and boring).

credit where it's due, though ... Clarke has been very damn good this season, i LOVED the heel turn shtick because it put some villain meat on her arc bone, and she chewed it up. 

add to that the fact that she's a dynamite off screen lady, just so full of personality and mischief ... and the health scares she's overcome - so, i love Clarke, but despise the Khaleesi/M.O.D./Dany character - i, for one, will be ecstatic when she bites it - #### her.  
Click to expand...
My pal, I remember all of this...cause I was a Dany-boy then.

I salute you!  :banned:

 
dickey moe said:
Man of Constant Sorrow said:
This part is huge for me. 

I'm still chewing on it... 
Click to expand...
His love and loyalty for Cersei were too strong for anything else (including redemption) to overcome.
Click to expand...


Maik Jeaunz said:
dickey moe said:
His love and loyalty for Cersei were too strong for anything else (including redemption) to overcome.
Click to expand...
yeah, I'm not sure why this part is so hard for people. Jaime was never the hero of the story. he was totally devoted to Cersei, except for that brief stroll up to Winterfell to save the world.
Click to expand...
Honestly guys, it is not that it is hard for me to understand the perspective presented here. I get it.

I just have not come to a final determination on my opinion yet. I may end up agreeing, but I really believe that there exists alternative explanations. Like I said earlier, I don't have one yet...I have nothing. When I have something; I will post.

Thanks tho.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
OK @SaintsInDome2006 - I said in my first reply on your mention, that I had comments and questions. I made my comments already, and now that I am caught up, I have some questions.

In regards to my Malory reading, I seem to recall that he made some waves in regards to his apparent strong support of Absolute Monarchy and Divine Right. Before I even attempt to talk about this, I'd like to know if you have any knowledge on this. I think it is more your wheelhouse than mine.

Anyways - I will say - if I am reading my history accurately, I believe that both authors are making very strong statements about absolutism.

EDIT: By "he" I mean Thomas Malory of Newbold Revel - the most likely author. Again, I don't know much at present.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I have been madly trying to binge watch this show. Last night was my first time seeing the Battle of the Bastards--just an amazing episode (like most of you don't know that already), but I have to watch that again before moving on to episode 10 of season six. 

 
Man of Constant Sorrow said:
OK, I posted earlier that I agreed 100% with this, but I did not have the time or words (yet) to elaborate. Also, I have fallen way behind in this thread, so I apologize if I say something already covered.

In my opinion, A Song of Ice and Fire can be read as a response to Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur.

Malory's tale of Arthur ends with his journey to Avalon and a promise for the return of a/the King. In this piece, the King and the Land are one. Arthur, imo, represents the rise of Christianity over paganism in the British Isles. This includes the disappearance of the pagan "old magic" as well.

In ASOIAF, the new religion (The Seven) has already been in place for a long while. The old paganism religions/cults of Ice & Fire, while not dead, are definitely in recession. This can be seen to be a time after the King departs - waiting for a return.

Thus, I see GRRM responding by addressing the King's Return. However, the Pagan (Ice & Fire) element and what that means for the Land is not necessarily the great joyous event hoped for.

Therefore, I don't see any particular character as the primary subject of the tale. Rather, I see the tale as a modern reply to an age old trope - Old vs. New....Pagan vs. Christian...Magic vs. Science.

I think he takes many of the Arthurian (& other old myths) elements, and - like a great jazz player - weaves them in new and interesting ways, but all along, he is still singing a similar song...a song about the times before memory and their return to the known.

Well, this is the story I read and watch...and it is one of the reasons that I don't get too involved in TV show critiquing. I am most absorbed by the new direction and method that such an old tale is newly sung. Even if D&D butcher some details, I trust that GRRM has enough voice left irt the series, that this part of the song remains true to his vision.

I dunno. Sunday will be fun.
Click to expand...
Well MOCS you got me [thumping chest] right here, man. Malory Le Morte is pretty much my base for my comment. That plus Once & Future King, then Stewart and of course Tolkien. But yeah, Malory. A+, amigo. :banned:

 
Courtjester said:
I have been madly trying to binge watch this show. Last night was my first time seeing the Battle of the Bastards--just an amazing episode (like most of you don't know that already), but I have to watch that again before moving on to episode 10 of season six. 
Click to expand...
Yea but ... why come rickon didn’t weave? 

 
Just got done watching episide 5 (I was away all week)....

It was entertaining and I enjoyed it but three things that bothered me:

1.  Why did Cersei let Dany, Tyrian, and company simply walk away after she beheaded MeSandy?

2.  How the hell did Jaime survive the fight with Euron?  No way he should have been able to walk all the way up to Cersei.

3.  Speaking of Euron, it's funny how easy it was kill a dragon last time but not even a single hit this week from he his boats or the scorpions on the walls.  And that dragon looked big as F.  At least a wing should have been clipped in order to keep consistency.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Well MOCS you got me [thumping chest] right here, man. Malory Le Morte is pretty much my base for my comment. That plus Once & Future King, then Stewart and of course Tolkien. But yeah, Malory. A+, amigo. :banned:
Click to expand...
Thanks SID. An A+ from you is legit as it get. 😎🙂

Regarding the other books you mention - exactly. Also, I considered citing Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniaeas as my primary source, but I think his work is too narrow, even though it is older. Rather, I believe that GRMM was inspired mainly by Malory's work. I have some thoughts, but they are still raw.

1) GRRM has already said that the Wars of the Roses inspired him in many ways.

2) Thomas Malory of Newbold Revel & the writing of Le Morte d'Arthur were contemporaneous with the Wars of the Roses.

3)  Le Morte d'Arthur was first a curation from many existing sources (including Monmouth) and then retold in various stages of authenticity. Thus, it contains a greater number of seeds to choose from.

4) While many modern viewers and readers are shocked by the graphic nature of ASOIAF (e.g. rape, incest, extreme violence, misogyny, age of protagonists/victims, etc.) this is all common place in Le Morte d'Arthur.

5) Another element that distinguishes GRRM from many of his contemporaries, is his willingness to kill off major characters. Again, this is quite common in Malory. In fact, in Le Morte characters may die in early tales and then reappear quite healthy in later scenes - with no explanation given. Of course, this is primarily related to the curated-from-many-sources element of Le Mort, but it sets a tone that GRRM picks up on - imo. 

Now, how does this relate to the TV series? Well, Le Mort is kind of a compilation of many older tales that served a similar role to comic books. They were common characters used as archetypes of a sort, that were then written/spoken about by the many story tellers of the time. Often, these stories conflicted or did not follow a linear timeline or even reality-line. It had a multiverse aspect to it.

In the TV show, many of the eccentric and or even stupid things that characters may do, I explain away as part of the comic book element. It may be shallow in one area, but deep in another. Sometimes, in order to be deep on one aspect, I think the other needs to be shallow.

I dunno - as usual. But, using this outlook, I absolutely love the TV series.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
KarmaPolice said:
Is there a reason the North men didn't listen to the King in the North during the attack and went berserk like Greyworm?
Click to expand...
When I did my re-watch, I took some notes:

GW launches spear into a  Queens man - turning to look back at attackers. Jon looks shocked & saddened - disbelief.

The damn breaks - attackers charge - Jon remains, watching.

Until he finally pulls back on his own. He orders a stay. 

Greyworm turns & scowls. But Waits. 

Jon finally has to defend himself. GW then advances again. 

Battle is fully engaged. 
Click to expand...
Thus, I think it could be interpreted that GW did obey - after an unauthorized attack.

 
Also, what is there for Jon to do if he lives?  He doesn't want the throne, but him staying around will have people wanting him on it after word spreads who he is.   He can't really go to Winterfell since I would think that would also interfere if Sansa is there and ruling.   Despite what Tormund said, it's not like he's a Wildling either.   There's no need for the NW if the WWs are dead and hell, are there even many Wildlings left?  

I joked in the other thread that Jon was going to build a house at the hole in the wall,  but I guess he could end up there in some capacity being a bridge between Wildlings and the North? 

Maybe that points to him dying tomorrow night...

 
KarmaPolice said:
Also, what is there for Jon to do if he lives?  He doesn't want the throne, but him staying around will have people wanting him on it after word spreads who he is.   He can't really go to Winterfell since I would think that would also interfere if Sansa is there and ruling.   Despite what Tormund said, it's not like he's a Wildling either.   There's no need for the NW if the WWs are dead and hell, are there even many Wildlings left?  

I joked in the other thread that Jon was going to build a house at the hole in the wall,  but I guess he could end up there in some capacity being a bridge between Wildlings and the North? 

Maybe that points to him dying tomorrow night...
Click to expand...
Great questions. I agree with all of your points.

I look at Jon as a mixture of Arthurian tropes.

1) Like Arthur, he was born of rape - by the King/Prince. Note: rape in medieval times included consensual sex between the participants, if the woman's authority figure did not concede. Robert Baratheon (fiance...I believe) nor Rickard Stark (father) nor Brandon Stark (brother) consented. Thus, I still view this act as a rape.

2) Like Arthur he was secreted away from his birth parents and raised by others - his true identity unknown until the proper time.

3) Like Arthur he carries a part of the pagan element (e.g. Arthur: oneness with the Land, raised by Merlin, selection by the Lady of the Lake, etc.) - (e.g. Jon - Targaryen, warging ability, selection/resurrection by the Red Woman/Lord of Light, etc.)

Even though Arthur represents the rise of Christianity over paganism, Arthur was still highly wrapped in the old pagan ways. That - in part - was why he had to go to Avalon. Jon is in a similar situation.

At this point, it would seem that Jon must die, if GRMM (or show) want to follow this trope to the end.

However:

4) Unlike Arthur he has not yet accepted any true reign other than the brief stint as King of the North. So, GRRM has played this tune a little differently.

If Jon continues to deny the title, will that be the deciding factor in Jon's end vs. Arthur's?

Perhaps he could follow the Lancelot trope and become a monk.

Or, he could go east - which is a great trope flip of heading into the West (Avalon).

 
Last edited by a moderator:
KarmaPolice said:
Also, what is there for Jon to do if he lives? 
Click to expand...
What is Tyrion to do if he lives?  I doubt he can serve Dany.  He could serve on the council of the new ruler, whoever that is.  I doubt he wants to go back to Casterly Rock, and the mines there have played out anyway.  I have trouble seeing how he manages to exeist without being rich.  Maybe Bronn tries to collect Highgarden.

 
Mrs. Rannous said:
What is Tyrion to do if he lives?  I doubt he can serve Dany.  He could serve on the council of the new ruler, whoever that is.  I doubt he wants to go back to Casterly Rock, and the mines there have played out anyway.  I have trouble seeing how he manages to exeist without being rich.  Maybe Bronn tries to collect Highgarden.
Click to expand...
Opens a chain of brothels and becomes the next (and actual) Little Finger. 

 
bostonfred said:
Great moments from season 8
Click to expand...
those two had such memorable scenes together over the years ... our first ever glimpse of the Imp was Jaime rousing him out of a Northern brothel during the Winterfell visit ... and tha ####### brilliant Beetle "KADUNK!"  prison scene ... so many great exchanges from Nik and Dink - that last one that is cited here got me and the gf a tad dusty ... really gonna miss these guys - moreso than the Sopranos -

 
I am still holding out hope that Daenerys charges Jon Snow with treason, has a public beheading, with Arya in the crowd...that would be a GOT ending.

 
Sinn Fein said:
I am still holding out hope that Daenerys charges Jon Snow with treason, has a public beheading, with Arya in the crowd...that would be a GOT ending.
Click to expand...
I like this. And, to soldier on with my Arthur comparisons:

I think Dany was originally shown to be the Arthur trope (and still carries some elements of it) - but, GRRM pulled a fast one when he revealed that Jon was a Targ also. In a sense - we had two competing Arthur's at this point. (Could Tyrion become a 3rd - in this final episode?)

But, I think Dany also took on some other tropes more recently. Most notably, Arthur's sister (Anna/Morgause or Morgan le Fay in later works.)

Depending on the source, Arthur and his sister engaged in an incestuous relationship (in some, both are unknowing - in others, the sister knew = rape)

The result in most, is Mordred - the one who shall over throw and mortally wound Arthur.

Could Drogon be considered Mordred in a certain sense? Yeah - Jon did not sire him directly, but the return of the magic that did sire Drogon came in part from the Return of the King(s) - imo. Thus, it could be argued that Jon is the spiritual father of the dragons.

Thus, when Dany (Jon's lover/sister/aunt) tries to kill him for the throne - she has her son Drogon (Mordred) deliver the mortal wound -- after pulling himself up a shaft of spear impaling him, to make the final blow. (Excalibur, the film, has that part reversed.) . But, in keeping with the original tale, Jon kills Drogon - with said spear. 

Finally, in comparing the Arthur-trope paths between Jon and Dany - the biggest differences I see are these:

1) Dany seizes the reign whenever she can - Jon shuns it.

2) Dany commits the sin of wanting to continue the incestuous relationship (which in part cursed the Targ's to madness). While Jon has tried to resist. And yes, this is a sexist medieval trope. I wish things were different, but I think GRRM does it for a purpose.

Anyways, yeah - let's see Dany sentence Jon - Drogon mortally wound Jon & then Jon kills Drogon (& Dany perhaps).

EDIT: Or better - as you kinda imply - Ayra then kills Dany.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Or - how about this - Daenerys charges Tyrion and/or Jon with Treason.

Its hard to see how she lets anyone who knows about Jon's parentage to live.

Then - one of two outcomes: 

1.  Daenerys says: "Dracarys" and Drogon senses Jon is a Targaryen and Tyrion is Friends with Dragons and refuses to light them up (or maybe Jon lives through the Dragon Fire); or, 

2.  Arya somehow slays Drogon and saves Jon from execution - something she could not do when she watched Ned die. 

Either way - Daenerys has proven from Season 1 - that she cannot rule without her dragons and fear of her dragons.  Without the dragons the people rebel, and take the Iron Throne for all the small folk.

ETA - I posted this before seeing the post above.  Either would be fine - neither will probably happen...

 
Last edited by a moderator:
i'm gonna miss this #### so much ... yeah, i be baggin' hardcore on the D&D treatment, but - this whole shebang got the hooks in me deep. 

last 5 1/2 hrs of anticipation i'll ever feel from Westeros ... #### me   :kicksrock:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
KarmaPolice said:
Also, what is there for Jon to do if he lives?  He doesn't want the throne, but him staying around will have people wanting him on it after word spreads who he is.   He can't really go to Winterfell since I would think that would also interfere if Sansa is there and ruling.   Despite what Tormund said, it's not like he's a Wildling either.   There's no need for the NW if the WWs are dead and hell, are there even many Wildlings left?  

I joked in the other thread that Jon was going to build a house at the hole in the wall,  but I guess he could end up there in some capacity being a bridge between Wildlings and the North? 

Maybe that points to him dying tomorrow night...
Click to expand...
He could take up residence in Old Craster's place.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Or - how about this - Daenerys charges Tyrion and/or Jon with Treason.

Its hard to see how she lets anyone who knows about Jon's parentage to live.

Then - one of two outcomes: 

1.  Daenerys says: "Dracarys" and Drogon senses Jon is a Targaryen and Tyrion is Friends with Dragons and refuses to light them up (or maybe Jon lives through the Dragon Fire); or, 

2.  Arya somehow slays Drogon and saves Jon from execution - something she could not do when she watched Ned die. 

Either way - Daenerys has proven from Season 1 - that she cannot rule without her dragons and fear of her dragons.  Without the dragons the people rebel, and take the Iron Throne for all the small folk.
Click to expand...
Yeah - this is good.

IRT #1 - Very cool - as this would/could potentially reveal Ty as a 3rd Targ heir (even if not confirmed, it would help a lot of theories on this.) Also, if Jon is not officially killed, could he be considered "mortally wounded" - in a spiritual/emotional way? And, as Arthur, perhaps head East rather than West - to Avalon. In GRRM world, the far East is the mystical realm - magic and dragons are rumored to still be there.

IRT #2 - I like the "flashback & twist" of it. I don't have an Arthur explanation for it yet, but I bet one could be found. I'm still working on Arya - she is pretty complex in my opinion.

On your summary - yeah - I agree. That is in part what made me compare the Dragons to Mordred, as Mordred was the means to his mother's rule - in some versions at least.

Tonight is gonna be great!

 
eoMMan said:
Did you join the million people who signed the petition for them to remake season 8?

https://deadline.com/2019/05/fans-sign-petition-demanding-game-of-thrones-season-8-remake-1202618278/
Click to expand...
This is the dumbest thing ever. The show is the writers vision, not the consumer's. People think the show should end the way THEY want it to end, but that's not how it works. Of course people don't have to like the ending, but they need to accept it. Instead of signing that petetion, maybe they should band together and write a show, pitch it to HBO or whoever, and show us they can do better. Otherwise it's just noise and wishful thinking.

 
I don’t think Jon knows about Arya being able to use another face, does he?  I could see a scenario where Arya kills Grey Worm, takes his face, and then there’s a 3-person showdown with Dany, Jon and “Grey Worm” where she orders him to kill Jon and Arya removes his face and kills Dany. It would have to be a surprise confrontation where Drogon is not around. 

 
Wingnut said:
This is the dumbest thing ever. The show is the writers vision, not the consumer's. People think the show should end the way THEY want it to end, but that's not how it works. Of course people don't have to like the ending, but they need to accept it. Instead of signing that petetion, maybe they should band together and write a show, pitch it to HBO or whoever, and show us they can do better. Otherwise it's just noise and wishful thinking.
Click to expand...
Counterpoint: it is hilarious shtick.

 
One of my favs from last week:

Tyrion & Jaime - In tent of captivity 

Ty: How did they find you? 

J: <Raises gold hand>

T: Did you consider taking it off? 

J: Cersei once called me the stupidest Lannister...

 
Man of Constant Sorrow said:
I like this. And, to soldier on with my Arthur comparisons:

I think Dany was originally shown to be the Arthur trope (and still carries some elements of it) - but, GRRM pulled a fast one when he revealed that Jon was a Targ also. In a sense - we had two competing Arthur's at this point. (Could Tyrion become a 3rd - in this final episode?)

But, I think Dany also took on some other tropes more recently. Most notably, Arthur's sister (Anna/Morgause or Morgan le Fay in later works.)

Depending on the source, Arthur and his sister engaged in an incestuous relationship (in some, both are unknowing - in others, the sister knew = rape)

The result in most, is Mordred - the one who shall over throw and mortally wound Arthur.

Could Drogon be considered Mordred in a certain sense? Yeah - Jon did not sire him directly, but the return of the magic that did sire Drogon came in part from the Return of the King(s) - imo. Thus, it could be argued that Jon is the spiritual father of the dragons.

Thus, when Dany (Jon's lover/sister/aunt) tries to kill him for the throne - she has her son Drogon (Mordred) deliver the mortal wound -- after pulling himself up a shaft of spear impaling him, to make the final blow. (Excalibur, the film, has that part reversed.) . But, in keeping with the original tale, Jon kills Drogon - with said spear. 

Finally, in comparing the Arthur-trope paths between Jon and Dany - the biggest differences I see are these:

1) Dany seizes the reign whenever she can - Jon shuns it.

2) Dany commits the sin of wanting to continue the incestuous relationship (which in part cursed the Targ's to madness). While Jon has tried to resist. And yes, this is a sexist medieval trope. I wish things were different, but I think GRRM does it for a purpose.

Anyways, yeah - let's see Dany sentence Jon - Drogon mortally wound Jon & then Jon kills Drogon (& Dany perhaps).

EDIT: Or better - as you kinda imply - Ayra then kills Dany.
Click to expand...
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony! Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you! Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Man of Constant Sorrow said:
One of my favs from last week:

Tyrion & Jaime - In tent of captivity 

Ty: How did they find you? 

J: <Raises gold hand>

T: Did you consider taking it off? 

J: Cersei once called me the stupidest Lannister...
Click to expand...
OK - I need to include these scenes as well, now.

From my notes:

King's Landing:

Bell tower - iron fleet - 

City preps - Ayra & Hound make way through city. 


Jaime close-up taking off glove to reveal gold hand - he's got this down pat!

He looks at bell tower, then takes off into phalanx - opposite direction - into heart of King's Landing. 

Gates closed. 

Jaime continues 
Click to expand...
and:

Cersei looks out over city 

Red Keep outer gate is still open & letting people in -  Hound & Arya push past woman & child to get in.

Gate closes. Woman & child don't get in. They exit, stage right? 

Jaime does not get in either. Waves golden hand over head in crowd of thousands - remains unnoticed. God he's good! 

He is trying to get arrested by guards, fails. Maybe? Exit stage down, around & then up. 

Cersei - silent - serious 
 
Click to expand...

 
Quint said:
Listen, strange women lyin' in ponds distributin' swords is no basis for a system of government! Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony! Oh, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you! Oh but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
Click to expand...
❤️

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

BobbyLayne
The 25 Greatest Films of the 21st Century So Far
2 3 4
Replies
155
Views
6K
El Floppo
El Floppo

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 8 (members: 0, guests: 8)
Top