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Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (6 Viewers)

bostonfred said:
Yes that reminds me of tyrion fighting at the battle of blackwater taking a sword to the face in the middle of the vanguard and waking up in bed with a bandage, or Jon Snow getting smothered and then waking up to Ramsey with a shield and taking arrow after arrow then beating him within an inch of his life. The surviving characters thing happened all show.  
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You are right - it did.  If you look through every scenario there was stuff like this all along - it's fantasy after all.    

I think the problem was, those little nit picks were engulf by awesome characters, acting, writing, etc..  it was the small minority.   Then toward the end, a lot of that stuff eroded away, so the warts weren't hidden as much.   Even great shows like Breaking Bad had silly #### like this too (airplane crash subplot?), but that's not what we remember because it was continuously great and it ended about as well as a series could.   

 
KarmaPolice said:
You are right - it did.  If you look through every scenario there was stuff like this all along - it's fantasy after all.    

I think the problem was, those little nit picks were engulf by awesome characters, acting, writing, etc..  it was the small minority.   Then toward the end, a lot of that stuff eroded away, so the warts weren't hidden as much.   Even great shows like Breaking Bad had silly #### like this too (airplane crash subplot?), but that's not what we remember because it was continuously great and it ended about as well as a series could.   
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Right, no doubt the last season was the worst because it went too fast and they didn't develop things nearly as well,  while the expectations were as high as possible for a TV show. I just think people pile on way too much when it was still... ok.  You don't have to go looking for problems with it.  

The time it took for the inflammable princess to fly her dragon over the magic wall to fight the zombie army was totally unrealistic!  Some of the scenes in the full episode of CGI dragons and zombie army battles were too dark!  Why did the anti dragon javelin technology work better when it was a surprise than when they were easy to see, high up in the air and made of wood?  

If they made these scenes a little longer and did more to flesh out the big moments it would have been better, no doubt. But there were still some awesome scenes mixed in.  The Knighting of sir Brienne followed by this was pretty great even if you didn't love the next episode.  https://youtu.be/D4XUfCb32Sc

 
bostonfred said:
Right, no doubt the last season was the worst because it went too fast and they didn't develop things nearly as well,  while the expectations were as high as possible for a TV show. I just think people pile on way too much when it was still... ok.  You don't have to go looking for problems with it.  

The time it took for the inflammable princess to fly her dragon over the magic wall to fight the zombie army was totally unrealistic!  Some of the scenes in the full episode of CGI dragons and zombie army battles were too dark!  Why did the anti dragon javelin technology work better when it was a surprise than when they were easy to see, high up in the air and made of wood?  

If they made these scenes a little longer and did more to flesh out the big moments it would have been better, no doubt. But there were still some awesome scenes mixed in.  The Knighting of sir Brienne followed by this was pretty great even if you didn't love the next episode.  https://youtu.be/D4XUfCb32Sc
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But you have to understand where people will be slightly pissy when a show goes from epic to just..... ok in pretty short order.  

I would put S1-S4 at the top of anything on TV ever.  

 
Went from epic to Hallmark Channel.

People experienced greatness in the books and earlier seasons. 

The later seasons were sloppy, hasty and lacked the tension and the character of what we had come to expect.

The details weren't there just a Cliff's Notes version whether due to lack of source materials and/or desire to move on to other things.

I think its more the first. So who's to blame?  Martin for becoming distracted and lush with success and producing at an even slower pace. Or the writers who were then overmatched in their skillset and vision compared to the original source material.

I'd say both are reasons.

GOT (TV)will be recognized as an unfinished Masterpiece. It will always be so.

 
Yeah it's like you arrange an INCREDIBLE 11 course meal at a 5 star restaurant. Best meal you've had in your life.

And when it's time for dessert, the chef just throws a pack of ring dings at you as hes rushing out the door for the night. 

 
I sure wish I could go back to the Spring of 2019 and enjoy the show again. Even with season 7 ramping up the silliness (mainly with all the fast traveling that was going on. Gendry running back to the wall. LOL) there were still some great moments.

But season 8 is something you can't unsee. SO much character development ruined and just complete nonsensical absurdity all around. Just so much awful packed into those last 3 episodes. While there was a lot of ridiculousness in the Battle for Winterfell episode, (and the darkness complaints are warranted. Previous night time battles on the show were shot MUCH better, albeit at a smaller scale)  there were some good moments. And I cant argue that the scale and pace was pretty incredible.  But they took the easy way out letting so many people live (how many times were Brienne, Jamie and others just totally swarmed by enemies?) and then just robbed Jon Snow of his defining moment by having Arya ninja kill the Night King. And then they spent the final 3 hours of the show turning Jon into a version of Hodor that could only bellow "She's MAH QUEEEENNNNN!!!!"

I really dont think its nitpicking.  Its completely valid criticism of a show that face planted its ending because their "genius" creators were "too bored" to finish it properly.

 
bostonfred is making so much sense now that it worries me. :P :lol:

KarmaPolice said:
Why would anybody tell him not to enjoy the show?
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Many who hated the last season seem to have trouble grasping that not everyone hated it.  I thought it could have been a lot better, but it was still enjoyable.

And to jump back a page, while Dany's "turn" could have been fleshed out a little more, anyone who didn't see it coming wasn't paying attention.  She always had that little bit of crazy in her, and no one was left to reign her in (except Tyrion, whom she had lost all faith in by that point).

 
Ghost Rider said:
bostonfred is making so much sense now that it worries me. :P :lol:

Many who hated the last season seem to have trouble grasping that not everyone hated it.  I thought it could have been a lot better, but it was still enjoyable.

And to jump back a page, while Dany's "turn" could have been fleshed out a little more, anyone who didn't see it coming wasn't paying attention.  She always had that little bit of crazy in her, and no one was left to reign her in (except Tyrion, whom she had lost all faith in by that point).
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You can see your mother punching you in the nose coming. That doesn't mean it makes sense in the context of your lifelong relationship with her. It just means she's a ####ty puncher.

 
stbugs said:
I don’t agree that they are even close. There was no cut away and an implausible lack of explanation. Tyrion survived the sword because he went down and got picked up by the people who won the battle. John didn’t actually get smothered, he crawled out (we saw it) so he wasn’t coming back from the dead again. Not quite the same as wearing full armor, sinking 100 feet and magically appearing a half mile away without breathing or being overrun by zombies who won the battle and somehow didn’t kill only the key characters. Hopeless situations where the way they survived didn’t fit what we were seeing. I’ll throw out a similar situation in TWD. Maybe you saw it, maybe you didn’t but when Rick was about to die we see hordes of zombies about 10 yards away from all angles while he’s still impaled on a slab of concrete. Cut away and next episode he’s being carried away in a helicopter.

There’s a big difference between a plausible survival we see or a plausible scenario we don’t because the character is knocked out and an implausible scenario where survival is only because we didn’t technically see the death.
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Fwiw, I took issue with a river bring 12-18" deep when viewed from above the surface, but bottomless when they wanted a pretty shot of jamie floating down, down, down so he could escape the dragon fire. I don't even care that much that Bronn somehow saved him and dragged them both underwater in armor and unseen a half mile away.

bostonfred said:
Right, no doubt the last season was the worst because it went too fast and they didn't develop things nearly as well,  while the expectations were as high as possible for a TV show. I just think people pile on way too much when it was still... ok.  You don't have to go looking for problems with it.  

The time it took for the inflammable princess to fly her dragon over the magic wall to fight the zombie army was totally unrealistic!  Some of the scenes in the full episode of CGI dragons and zombie army battles were too dark!  Why did the anti dragon javelin technology work better when it was a surprise than when they were easy to see, high up in the air and made of wood?  

If they made these scenes a little longer and did more to flesh out the big moments it would have been better, no doubt. But there were still some awesome scenes mixed in.  The Knighting of sir Brienne followed by this was pretty great even if you didn't love the next episode.  https://youtu.be/D4XUfCb32Sc
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Ugh. This was the TWD apologists' answer as well. It's a show about fantastical creatures, so rules of physics, and even previously and carefully laid out rules about those same fantastic creatures, or even regular characters' abilities, motivations  and actions get tossed out the window when the writers get lazy and want something to happen plot-wise.

I love sci-fi and fantasy, but the very best establishes rules, motivations and methods that makes sense contextually and are consistent. TWD started that way and fell into Jaime's river without Brown to help get them to shore (and is still sinking afaik). GoT started that way, and while for me it never got anywhere remotely near the depths that twd sank, it fell from that lofty perch of potentially goat shows into "those first seasons were so amazing, too bad they couldn't keep it up after the source material ended". It's a lesson that good writing is hard, I suppose. I still really enjoyed the show, but couldn't help feeling disappointed. Becomes annoying when folk want to make disappointment and pointing out glaring errors into a black and white dismissal of the show.

 
El Floppo said:
Fwiw, I took issue with a river bring 12-18" deep when viewed from above the surface, but bottomless when they wanted a pretty shot of jamie floating down, down, down so he could escape the dragon fire. I don't even care that much that Bronn somehow saved him and dragged them both underwater in armor and unseen a half mile away.
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Understood, but that cut away is the issue. They didn’t cut away from Tyrion at black water, he actually passed out and was then saved by his winning team, not shocking in the least. They showed John crawling out which while hard isn’t impossible since the people around him were basically dead. They artificially made Jamie’s river bottomless to A) avoid the likely scenario where the dragon just looks at a damp Jamie and roasts him (Bronn isn’t risking his life) and B) make it seem plausible that Dany and her dragon assume he’s drowned and hurry up and leave so they don’t accidentally see him. They then ignore the full armored drowning or swim up for air right next to a dragon or holding your breath for a half mile 50 feet under water.

 
El Floppo said:
Fwiw, I took issue with a river bring 12-18" deep when viewed from above the surface, but bottomless when they wanted a pretty shot of jamie floating down, down, down so he could escape the dragon fire. I don't even care that much that Bronn somehow saved him and dragged them both underwater in armor and unseen a half mile away.

Ugh. This was the TWD apologists' answer as well. It's a show about fantastical creatures, so rules of physics, and even previously and carefully laid out rules about those same fantastic creatures, or even regular characters' abilities, motivations  and actions get tossed out the window when the writers get lazy and want something to happen plot-wise.

I love sci-fi and fantasy, but the very best establishes rules, motivations and methods that makes sense contextually and are consistent. TWD started that way and fell into Jaime's river without Brown to help get them to shore (and is still sinking afaik). GoT started that way, and while for me it never got anywhere remotely near the depths that twd sank, it fell from that lofty perch of potentially goat shows into "those first seasons were so amazing, too bad they couldn't keep it up after the source material ended". It's a lesson that good writing is hard, I suppose. I still really enjoyed the show, but couldn't help feeling disappointed. Becomes annoying when folk want to make disappointment and pointing out glaring errors into a black and white dismissal of the show.
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I'm not an apologist I just find it really annoying that any conversation about one of the all time great shows is immediately overwhelmed by page after page of complaining about the depth of the water in a cutaway shot.  We all remember that scene. They shouldn't have done that. It's still possible to enjoy the damn show.  

 
bostonfred said:
I'm not an apologist I just find it really annoying that any conversation about one of the all time great shows is immediately overwhelmed by page after page of complaining about the depth of the water in a cutaway shot.  We all remember that scene. They shouldn't have done that. It's still possible to enjoy the damn show.  
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Of course it is. It's still possible to enjoy the show in spite of bringing up laughably terrible writing moments. But unfortunately, when that episode is mentioned- instead of just reveling in seeing the dragons in attack mode for the first time (which was amazing), for me it was also the first real glaring moment (and yes, there were other hiccups along the way prior to that) of TWD complete misfire. I can remember both, but in a way it was TWD moment that felt more impactful for my continued awed enjoyment of the show.

Forgive m if I lumped you into the apologist crowd- twd thread had a small group that would routinely get angry about the criticisms and I get it...it was eventually turning into nothing but criticisms and they rightly made the point- don't keep watching if there's no enjoyment to be had and discussed. I reached a point with TWD where I stopped having anything positive to say about the show and decided to stop watching. But the repeated rationale for support of the writing choices was that it's a show about zombies so shouldn't have to make sense. For me, I can accept any crazy reality, but it has to make sense within the construct of the universe the writers build. Most of the TWD and moments like the river scene in GOT take me out of that and lower my appreciation of the show. I picked up a similar reaction from you, thus the comment.

 
Corporation said:
What are the chances that Martin sees how poorly that last season was received and decides to go a completely different route?  I think I heard he provided a general direction of how it would go.  I wonder if they had contractual language in there that essentially obligates him to write it according to that path.
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I think ultimately Bran is king and Dany goes mad. But we get there in very different ways. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
bostonfred is making so much sense now that it worries me. :P :lol:

Many who hated the last season seem to have trouble grasping that not everyone hated it.  I thought it could have been a lot better, but it was still enjoyable.

And to jump back a page, while Dany's "turn" could have been fleshed out a little more, anyone who didn't see it coming wasn't paying attention.  She always had that little bit of crazy in her, and no one was left to reign her in (except Tyrion, whom she had lost all faith in by that point).
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She 100% never had it in her to just kill random people, especially kids and women, who were not players in the game. She can go mad, but torching the city after surrendering?  No way. 

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
I think ultimately Bran is king and Dany goes mad. But we get there in very different ways. 
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In a rushed not well thought out way. When you rush it to move on to other projects you get what we got.

Hey, wouldn’t it be cool to have Dany mow down Jamie’s legion and then Jamie charges at Dany?

Yeah, but you said you wanted Jamie and Cersei to be together at the end? Also, do you really think anyone will buy Jamie actually wanting to bang Brienne?

Oh, don’t worry we’ll figure something out when we shoot it. Yeah, we need to have them screw, that #### resonates with women over 6 feet.

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
She 100% never had it in her to just kill random people, especially kids and women, who were not players in the game. She can go mad, but torching the city after surrendering?  No way. 
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Torch the city would have been fine after she destroys the red keep. Oh John, she’s using women and children as shields. Well, yeah, inside the red keep. The ones outside weren’t protecting Cersei. It’s like wiping out the kids in the town next to terrorists before going after the terrorists who already have their town’s kids as shields. It was really annoying to see her seething at the red keep and then go elsewhere as if the dragon couldn’t just go straight there.

 
Think what pisses the diehards off is everyone knows the writers had other projects lined up and wanted to wrap this up as quickly as possible. No thought went into the final episodes. Dozens of fan endings that would have been far superior. When you take seasons worth of storylines and build up characters only to tear them down in the span of minutes, people are going to be annoyed. Seems like sweet justice that the writers haven’t had any opportunities post GOT. 

 
bostonfred said:
Quick somebody tell ghost guy not to enjoy the soup because they didn't use real lady fingers in the tiramisu
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But he's already had the soup.  He's on to the dessert now, so fair to tell him that it's not very good.

Besides the original analogy was poor anyway.  A better analogy is the first courses were great, but for dessert the waiter comes out and sticks his finger down your throat to make you to vomit the rest of the meal up and then forces you to eat it for dessert.

Fair to say you'd not be going back to that restaurant even though the first courses were great (just as no one wants to re-watch GoT anymore), and also fair to give warning to someone else currently enjoying their meal there.

 
bostonfred said:
Right, no doubt the last season was the worst because it went too fast and they didn't develop things nearly as well,  while the expectations were as high as possible for a TV show. I just think people pile on way too much when it was still... ok.  You don't have to go looking for problems with it.  
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"ok" is way overselling it.  The cinematography and battle scenes were great as a popcorn fun kind of thing.  EVERYTHING else from character development, motivations, pacing, overall plot, wrapping up stores, etc was a solid 1/10.  It all would have been considered poor even for some sappy network TV drama.

bostonfred said:
I'm not an apologist I just find it really annoying that any conversation about one of the all time great shows is immediately overwhelmed by page after page of complaining about the depth of the water in a cutaway shot.  We all remember that scene. They shouldn't have done that. It's still possible to enjoy the damn show.  
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But that's the thing, it's not one of the all-time great shows.  Prior to the last two seasons it was absolutely always in the discussion when people talked about all time greats.  If it had finished as strongly as the momentum it had it probably would have been considered a top 3 all time.  But now when all time great show discussion comes up it doesn't even get mentioned.  All the hype and good will was washed away.

And that's part of the problem.  Twilight fans didn't give a crap that the last movie was kitchy with poor writing and character development because that was the standard set by the whole series.  But GoT gave us the Godfather for 6 years and then wrapped it up with 2 years of Transformers.  And hey, don't get me wrong, I actually don't mind the Transformers movies when that's what I'm going to see.  But I would have been disappointed if Schindler's List's final act  had devolved into fast paced nonsense with a ridiculous plot but at least it had cool explosions.

 
Two aspects that were given criminally short-shrift, imo:

1.  Jon Snow's lineage - this was always portrayed as a big secret from season 1.  And it was portrayed in such a way that all the time spent building up to the big reveal should have amounted to something.  In the end, it meant nothing.

2.  Jon Snow v. Night King - again, it felt like the series was trying to build this "rivalry", if you will, since early on, and the pay-off of Snow cowering under an undead dragon, while Ninja Arya takes care of business felt like a big let down.  (Don't get me wrong, Arya was my favorite character - but we had been led to believe there would be a Snow v. Night King showdown.)

I am ok with Daenerys turning heel - that actually made sense in the context of the entire story - and I am assuming that is the ending the JRRM shared with the show runners.

 
To join the pile-on as someone who has read the books and was a big fan of the show, I also have no desire to re-watch due to the last season.  I think people's complaints can be put into two broad categories:

Sloppiness, unbelievability : Surrounded characters surviving off camera, teleporting Varys, Jaime and the river/lake fall into this category.  These annoy me but I can roll my eyes and overlook them for the most part.  There were definitely a lot more of them in the last season compared to earlier ones, though, so I can see why it annoys people. 

Big events that didn't have the right build-up/explanation.  This is where my main beef is.  Unlike a lot of people, I don't take much issue with Danaery's turn, because I think there was at least enough background to make it semi-plausible.  Of course, Dany always kind of annoyed me, so maybe I'm biased.  To me the big ones are:

  1. Night King's end.  I'm fine with Arya not Jon doing the deed, and maybe even in the manner it happened if it was properly explained.  But it wasn't.  Unstoppable undead force meets sneaky dagger and poof.  I know some fans put forth the theory that the exact heart tree that it happened at is the only place that he could be killed and Bran had to lure him there.  I guess that works as an explanation, but there's no evidence in the show that he couldn't have been stabbed anywhere else by anybody else.  Just send 100 Dothraki at him at one time and be done with it.
  2. King Bran.  Show Bran basically did nothing.  Why in the world would anybody agree with this?  Why would Dorne and Pyke go along with this when they have been rebelling forever?  "Okay, different random ruler is fine, we don't want to be our own kingdom anymore because the dwarf said so."
  3. Jaime going back to Cersei.  Like the previous two entries, you could come up with a plausible way this happens, but we sure weren't shown it.  All of the sudden he's like "actually I suck, and I don't like you anymore".  Umm, okay then.
It seems to me that they had a broad outline, but didn't have either the talent or desire to actually get the show there.  I hope if we get the books it makes more sense.

 
Ok so I just finished up the 1st episode of season 8.  Everything still excellent at this point.

However, knowing they have still yet to start fighting the white walkers and still have yet to begin any sort of resolution between the two groups, not to mention Jon Snow just found out who he really is, plus the awesomeness of a white Walker dragon and white Walker giants..............there are only 5 more episodes left??  

 
Dr_Zaius said:
To join the pile-on as someone who has read the books and was a big fan of the show, I also have no desire to re-watch due to the last season.  I think people's complaints can be put into two broad categories:

Sloppiness, unbelievability : Surrounded characters surviving off camera, teleporting Varys, Jaime and the river/lake fall into this category.  These annoy me but I can roll my eyes and overlook them for the most part.  There were definitely a lot more of them in the last season compared to earlier ones, though, so I can see why it annoys people. 

Big events that didn't have the right build-up/explanation.  This is where my main beef is.  Unlike a lot of people, I don't take much issue with Danaery's turn, because I think there was at least enough background to make it semi-plausible.  Of course, Dany always kind of annoyed me, so maybe I'm biased.  To me the big ones are:

  1. Night King's end.  I'm fine with Arya not Jon doing the deed, and maybe even in the manner it happened if it was properly explained.  But it wasn't.  Unstoppable undead force meets sneaky dagger and poof.  I know some fans put forth the theory that the exact heart tree that it happened at is the only place that he could be killed and Bran had to lure him there.  I guess that works as an explanation, but there's no evidence in the show that he couldn't have been stabbed anywhere else by anybody else.  Just send 100 Dothraki at him at one time and be done with it.
  2. King Bran.  Show Bran basically did nothing.  Why in the world would anybody agree with this?  Why would Dorne and Pyke go along with this when they have been rebelling forever?  "Okay, different random ruler is fine, we don't want to be our own kingdom anymore because the dwarf said so."
  3. Jaime going back to Cersei.  Like the previous two entries, you could come up with a plausible way this happens, but we sure weren't shown it.  All of the sudden he's like "actually I suck, and I don't like you anymore".  Umm, okay then.
It seems to me that they had a broad outline, but didn't have either the talent or desire to actually get the show there.  I hope if we get the books it makes more sense.
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3 has the easiest explanation out of them all.   He is a drug addict and Cersei is the drug.  He knows she's bad for him.  He knows Brienne is better for him.  He knows Cersei and him aren't going to end well.  He doesn't care.....because Cersei is what he needs. 

 
ghostguy123 said:
Ok so I just finished up the 1st episode of season 8.  Everything still excellent at this point.

However, knowing they have still yet to start fighting the white walkers and still have yet to begin any sort of resolution between the two groups, not to mention Jon Snow just found out who he really is, plus the awesomeness of a white Walker dragon and white Walker giants..............there are only 5 more episodes left??  
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Just enjoy it, but you already hit the nail on what was the biggest issue. They rushed the ending (HBO wanted to do more episodes). Ignore all the discussions and just finish it up. Still some good stuff, not as many as season 7.

 
fruity pebbles said:
Think what pisses the diehards off is everyone knows the writers had other projects lined up and wanted to wrap this up as quickly as possible. No thought went into the final episodes. Dozens of fan endings that would have been far superior. When you take seasons worth of storylines and build up characters only to tear them down in the span of minutes, people are going to be annoyed. Seems like sweet justice that the writers haven’t had any opportunities post GOT. 
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They are about to adapt some expansive Chinese sci-fi novel series for Netflix. 

 
Thunderlips said:
3 has the easiest explanation out of them all.   He is a drug addict and Cersei is the drug.  He knows she's bad for him.  He knows Brienne is better for him.  He knows Cersei and him aren't going to end well.  He doesn't care.....because Cersei is what he needs. 
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I think this and Dany at the end make sense in a broad sense of the story.  It's just that it felt rushed and quick like everything else.  

I think people were turned of because it also seemed to go against the Jaime redemption that felt like was building over the duration of the show. 

 
KarmaPolice said:
I think this and Dany at the end make sense in a broad sense of the story.  It's just that it felt rushed and quick like everything else.  

I think people were turned of because it also seemed to go against the Jaime redemption that felt like was building over the duration of the show. 
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Agreed. Rushing it meant that instead of Dany doing what she would have done with more time, just blast Cersei and make the keep collateral damage, they had her torch everyone else. They did that so Tyrion and John had a real reason to kill her 3 hours into the battle.

The show runners may not have had a super lucrative deal so they wanted to get started at Netflix as fast as possible and that screwed up the entire ending. Hey, we need to kill the dragon and Missande. How about a sneak attack by a fleet of ships that would seem to have been impossible to miss and would seem a perfect target for a sneak attack to remove from the chess board. When they rushed it so much and then used a ton of episode time on the hey the show is ending we need to get Jamie and Cersei together to die and we need to have a feel good pre battle love fest even though only one key person in there will actually die.

It just sucked that Jamie’s redemption/relationship with Brienne meant nothing and John’s birth meant nothing and most importantly the white walkers were a back story in the end. They really botched so much great build up and stories. Ironic that Bran is king to keep stories alive when three (probably more I’m forgetting) of the biggest story lines were #### on at the end.

 
stbugs said:
Agreed. Rushing it meant that instead of Dany doing what she would have done with more time, just blast Cersei and make the keep collateral damage, they had her torch everyone else. They did that so Tyrion and John had a real reason to kill her 3 hours into the battle.

The show runners may not have had a super lucrative deal so they wanted to get started at Netflix as fast as possible and that screwed up the entire ending. Hey, we need to kill the dragon and Missande. How about a sneak attack by a fleet of ships that would seem to have been impossible to miss and would seem a perfect target for a sneak attack to remove from the chess board. When they rushed it so much and then used a ton of episode time on the hey the show is ending we need to get Jamie and Cersei together to die and we need to have a feel good pre battle love fest even though only one key person in there will actually die.

It just sucked that Jamie’s redemption/relationship with Brienne meant nothing and John’s birth meant nothing and most importantly the white walkers were a back story in the end. They really botched so much great build up and stories. Ironic that Bran is king to keep stories alive when three (probably more I’m forgetting) of the biggest story lines were #### on at the end.
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I don't think that that is different than how significant character arcs ended up in the earlier seasons though.  If after the first couple of episodes of S1..... you had said that Robb, Ned, Drogo, Catelyn, Robert, Joffery......even Viserys.....wouldn't have been around for the last season (nevermind ONLY making it 1,2 or 3 seasons)....I'd have thought the show a waste of time.  It's just these things happening at the end don't act as a catalyst for other characters to achieve/reach prominence.....they just sum up, perfectly.(IMO) the relationship that they've had the whole time.  

I'd have honestly been pretty pissed of Jamie didn't end the way he did.  As a fan of the character....he got what he wanted.  

 
Thunderlips said:
I don't think that that is different than how significant character arcs ended up in the earlier seasons though.  If after the first couple of episodes of S1..... you had said that Robb, Ned, Drogo, Catelyn, Robert, Joffery......even Viserys.....wouldn't have been around for the last season (nevermind ONLY making it 1,2 or 3 seasons)....I'd have thought the show a waste of time.  It's just these things happening at the end don't act as a catalyst for other characters to achieve/reach prominence.....they just sum up, perfectly.(IMO) the relationship that they've had the whole time.  

I'd have honestly been pretty pissed of Jamie didn't end the way he did.  As a fan of the character....he got what he wanted.  
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Those examples are of characters dying and after getting to the end, I hope you realize that the show was basically about the Stark kids, winter coming and their adorable dwarf. Everyone else was just collateral. So, while Jamie could fall in the Ned Stark bucket like the rest, John’s lineage and winter coming should never should have been rushed aside like they were. Also, a better ending for Jamie would have been to not get to Cersei and just die in the streets because he went back on his redemption. Again, the show runners  needed to connect the dots at hyper speed so they had to somehow be killed by but not buried by the rubble so Tyrion could find them and want Dany dead.

 
stbugs said:
Those examples are of characters dying and after getting to the end, I hope you realize that the show was basically about the Stark kids, winter coming and their adorable dwarf. Everyone else was just collateral. So, while Jamie could fall in the Ned Stark bucket like the rest, John’s lineage and winter coming should never should have been rushed aside like they were. Also, a better ending for Jamie would have been to not get to Cersei and just die in the streets because he went back on his redemption. Again, the show runners  needed to connect the dots at hyper speed so they had to somehow be killed by but not buried by the rubble so Tyrion could find them and want Dany dead.
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I can't defend the pact of the show at the end. I'm not going to even try. It shouldn't have been 6 episodes...or if it were...it should have been 2 hour long episodes.  I wonder though if that matters when one goes back and binge watches it.

Winter coming wasn't rushed aside though.  It was a build up from the prologue of the first episode of S1.  There had to be an ending to it.......besides that, it was never the central focus of the realm.  It was secondary story to the actual "Game of Thrones". 

I like where Jon ended up to. He grew somewhat as a character.....and I think the optimal path in life for him would have been if he "stayed in the cave" with Ygritte......but in the end, a man of the North (because he was a Stark to the core) ended up in the True North.  That's perfect.  

 
Thunderlips said:
I can't defend the pact of the show at the end. I'm not going to even try. It shouldn't have been 6 episodes...or if it were...it should have been 2 hour long episodes.  I wonder though if that matters when one goes back and binge watches it.

Winter coming wasn't rushed aside though.  It was a build up from the prologue of the first episode of S1.  There had to be an ending to it.......besides that, it was never the central focus of the realm.  It was secondary story to the actual "Game of Thrones". 

I like where Jon ended up to. He grew somewhat as a character.....and I think the optimal path in life for him would have been if he "stayed in the cave" with Ygritte......but in the end, a man of the North (because he was a Stark to the core) ended up in the True North.  That's perfect.  
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I understand, just thought those two were more central than they were treated because it wasn’t doable. How many times did we here about John being a *******? What was the point of Bran and Sam spending all that time figuring out who he was? How many times did we here the 3 Stark kids say Dad always said winter is coming? Those 3 were in the end the “stars” of the show yet two of their pivotal arcs were swept under the rug.

The way the Night King went out was a disservice to build up. As you said, first scene of the show was the white walkers. IMHO, that should have been the ending. I would have been fine with the same silly small council meeting to kind of insinuate the whole here we go again and in 1000 years we’ll forget about the threat again, i.e. wheel broken but we just put a new one on.

Anyway, the rush job is what killed it and IMHO made them just drop stuff that made it hard for them to force the other pieces together.

 
stbugs said:
How many times did we here about John being a *******? What was the point of Bran and Sam spending all that time figuring out who he was? 
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Jon was the rightful heir to the mad king but he didn't want it.

Next in line was danaerys but Jon killed her. 

Robert baratheon was a usurper who took the throne by force. His heirs are all dead except gendry. 

Geoffrey had no legitimate claim to the throne, nor did cersei and her other children.

Brandon stark was the oldest living heir of Rheagar targaryan who was the oldest living heir of the mad king. 

We found out about Jon's lineage and thought that was the big reveal but what we also found out was that as soon as jon abdicated, Bran was the rightful king. 

Which is almost exactly what happened with eagon and Eamon targaryan iirc. One became king and one went into the night's watch. 

They could have done a much better job explaining it but I am OK with the fact bran ended up king

 
stbugs said:
How many times did we here the 3 Stark kids say Dad always said winter is coming? Those 3 were in the end the “stars” of the show yet two of their pivotal arcs were swept under the rug.
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There were five stark children plus Theon and Jon

Robb, the oldest, charged into battle but died because he chose himself over his honor. 

Rickon died because of theon

Theon was caught between two families and chose the wrong one, paid a steep price for betraying the stark family, almost died saving sansa then actually died saving bran

Sansa wanted to be queen then found out the hard way that it was horrible, but ultimately rules the north

Arya never wanted to be queen or part of any royal family, she wanted to learn how to fight. From the first episode, bran couldn't hit the target with an arrow and arya did. She avenged robb and saved the world and then when she was presented with an opportunity to be with gendry she said no and went out to explore the world on her own terms

Jon wanted to be a ranger, then he got to know the wildlings. He saved the night's watch from the wildlings, saved the wildlings from the night king, saved winterfell from ramsay and saved westeros from dany even though it cost him the throne. He went back to exactly where he wanted to be. 

Bran appeared to have had everything taken from him be the lannisters and ultimately became the wisest or at least most knowledgeable and he was the rightful heir. 

All of them had fully fleshed out arcs that made sense. They may have been rushed or you might not have wanted the ending you got but they all ended up exactly where they should have

 
Uruk-Hai said:
Where are you getting this from?
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Rhaegar had no heirs except Jon and the only other living targaryan was dany who died childless. 

Rhaegars wife lyanna didn't have any other children besides Jon but she did have two brothers, one who was in the night's watch, never had kids, and died, and the other was ned who also died. 

That means Ned's oldest male child was next in line. And that was Brandon Stark. 

 
bostonfred said:
Rhaegar had no heirs except Jon and the only other living targaryan was dany who died childless. 

Rhaegars wife lyanna didn't have any other children besides Jon but she did have two brothers, one who was in the night's watch, never had kids, and died, and the other was ned who also died. 

That means Ned's oldest male child was next in line. And that was Brandon Stark. 
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But the Targaryens lost the throne, and any hereditary rights.

Robert Baratheon took the throne.

Then Cersei Lannister took the throne.

Since Cersie's children all died before her, and her older sibling died with her, then Cersie's younger brother would have been next in line - All Hail King Tyrion!

 
Sinn Fein said:
But the Targaryens lost the throne, and any hereditary rights.

Robert Baratheon took the throne.

Then Cersei Lannister took the throne.

Since Cersie's children all died before her, and her older sibling died with her, then Cersie's younger brother would have been next in line - All Hail King Tyrion!
Click to expand...


Now this I could get on board with!

 
Sinn Fein said:
But the Targaryens lost the throne, and any hereditary rights.

Robert Baratheon took the throne.

Then Cersei Lannister took the throne.

Since Cersie's children all died before her, and her older sibling died with her, then Cersie's younger brother would have been next in line - All Hail King Tyrion!
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Well, that's also addressed by tyrion making the decision that it should go to bran, abdicating it just like Jon. But even if you don't consider the baratheon claim illegitimate because Robert was a usurper, the only one of Robert's heirs left was a *******, and as sansa clearly pointed out to Ramsey, a true born heir will always have the stronger claim over a *******. It's complicated and would have been boring television but Brandon really was the rightful heir

 
Thunderlips said:
Winter coming wasn't rushed aside though.  It was a build up from the prologue of the first episode of S1.  There had to be an ending to it.......besides that, it was never the central focus of the realm.  It was secondary story to the actual "Game of Thrones". 
Click to expand...
It's worth noting that the actual title of the series is "A Song of Ice and Fire".  Game of Thrones was merely the first book and as with many shows they just used that for the show name because it is more recongizable.

 
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bostonfred said:
Well, that's also addressed by tyrion making the decision that it should go to bran, abdicating it just like Jon. But even if you don't consider the baratheon claim illegitimate because Robert was a usurper, the only one of Robert's heirs left was a *******, and as sansa clearly pointed out to Ramsey, a true born heir will always have the stronger claim over a *******. It's complicated and would have been boring television but Brandon really was the rightful heir
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I think Cersei actually broke the Baratheon claim to the throne, when she declared herself to be Queen - thus establishing a new line.

 
I was a harsh critic because I was so disappointed but being positive on this, the first 4-5 seasons were INCREDIBLE. I am happy we got that. It is rare to have a show like Mad Men that can keep the quality up from start to finish for for 5+ seasons

 
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