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Official Tom Brady - bust alert (in 2013)

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If two of three stay healthy he should be good. He doesn't throw that deep anymore from what I've seen lately. That offense is catered to him. If he finishes around qb8 I bet its just because of a bunch, one big game seperating several guys.

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Every QB is different though and Brady is obviously a 1st ballot HOF and you can even make an argument for GOAT.

Brady is never going to pass Terry Bradshaw or Montana as GOAT with only three Super Bowl wins. And anyone who doesn't think TB was more dominant in his time than Brady is now has to go read some football history books. Don't bother with stats, either. It wasn't a stats game back then.

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Every QB is different though and Brady is obviously a 1st ballot HOF and you can even make an argument for GOAT.

Brady is never going to pass Terry Bradshaw or Montana as GOAT with only three Super Bowl wins. And anyone who doesn't think TB was more dominant in his time than Brady is now has to go read some football history books. Don't bother with stats, either. It wasn't a stats game back then.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread, Bradshaw the GOAT? :no:

Anybody outside of Stiller Nation ever say that? Their defense played a major role in Bradshaw's 4 rings...

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Every QB is different though and Brady is obviously a 1st ballot HOF and you can even make an argument for GOAT.

Brady is never going to pass Terry Bradshaw or Montana as GOAT with only three Super Bowl wins. And anyone who doesn't think TB was more dominant in his time than Brady is now has to go read some football history books. Don't bother with stats, either. It wasn't a stats game back then.

I said you can make an argument for Brady, not that he was (and I don't agree that he is FWIW.) There are already huge threads devoted to debating that topic.

Edited by Buckna

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Every QB is different though and Brady is obviously a 1st ballot HOF and you can even make an argument for GOAT.

Brady is never going to pass Terry Bradshaw or Montana as GOAT with only three Super Bowl wins. And anyone who doesn't think TB was more dominant in his time than Brady is now has to go read some football history books. Don't bother with stats, either. It wasn't a stats game back then.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread, Bradshaw the GOAT? :no:

Anybody outside of Stiller Nation ever say that? Their defense played a major role in Bradshaw's 4 rings...

So Eli is just as good as Elway, since they have the same amount of Super Bowl wins? Plunkett better than P-Man? Dilfer better than Marino? This logic just ming-boggling crazy.

Edited by wodahSShadow

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Every QB is different though and Brady is obviously a 1st ballot HOF and you can even make an argument for GOAT.

Brady is never going to pass Terry Bradshaw or Montana as GOAT with only three Super Bowl wins. And anyone who doesn't think TB was more dominant in his time than Brady is now has to go read some football history books. Don't bother with stats, either. It wasn't a stats game back then.

At the risk of hijacking my own thread, Bradshaw the GOAT? :no:

Anybody outside of Stiller Nation ever say that? Their defense played a major role in Bradshaw's 4 rings...

So Eli is just as good as Elway, since they have the same amount of Super Bowl wins? Plunkett better than P-Man? Dilfer better than Marino? This isn't the NBA - QBs need a TEAM around them to do playoff/Super Bowl damage...And, to take off what Myer said, I literally have not read, heard, watched or listened to any professional nor Steeler Homer ever conjure up such a rosy image of Bradshaw such as the GOAT that you propose...

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I am completely on board with the premise of this thread. I'd be happy to have him as my QB this year absent his price, but believe he's much more likely to finish around QB8-10 than QB3.

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Every QB is different though and Brady is obviously a 1st ballot HOF and you can even make an argument for GOAT.

Brady is never going to pass Terry Bradshaw or Montana as GOAT with only three Super Bowl wins. And anyone who doesn't think TB was more dominant in his time than Brady is now has to go read some football history books. Don't bother with stats, either. It wasn't a stats game back then.

Bradshaw threw 212 TDs and 210 INTs in his NFL career. No, stats are not everything, but +2 for your career in TD/INT ratio is hardly stellar.

I guess you think Troy Aikman is better all-time than Steve Young, Peyton Manning and John Elway, right?

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What is his ADP? QB3. I can't agree that he'll be a bust this year, but I think there's a very slim chance he places at or above his ADP.

This. If his ADP slides to QB6 or QB7, it could be a different story. But I'd rather take whatever QB is available at QB6 or QB7 than take Brady as QB3.

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He doesn't throw that deep anymore from what I've seen lately.

According to PFF, Brady attempted 84 deep passes last season, which was 5th most in the NFL. (Though they define deep as 20+ yards.) That was 13.2% of his passing attempts, which was the 6th highest percentage in the NFL.

He was 28/84 for 919 yards, 9 TDs, and 3 interceptions last season on 20+ yard attempts. Poor completion percentage, but that was 19% of his yards and 26% of his TDs on 13% of his attempts. I'd say throwing deep is still important to his fantasy success.

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Brady is not just any other QB, he is a Super Stud, this thread is for the haters to speculate.

:goodposting: This is just a ridiculous thread. Only way Brady does bad this year is if he gets hurt, or Amendola, Gronkowski and Hernandez are all out of the same game. WTF is this post?

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61 posts about Brady's 2013 performance and not one mention of the O-line? Evan Silva ranks the line # 1 overall with their strength being pass protection. Weapons or not, it sounds like dude should have time to find the open man.

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Same reason Brees has been a bust in virtually every season since joining the Saints. Hes been surrounded with mostly suck weapons and injury risks.

Should author a "Bust Alert - Drew Brees" thread too, then you can be the genius that called it first.

/:sarcasm:

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Where to begin with this . . .

The Pats will not be taking the ball out of Brady's hands and giving it to Tim Tebow, so that's a total non-issue.

Amendola at this point is a younger and slightly faster version of Welker. He had essentially 2 totally fluke injuries that mucked up two seasons, neither of which are likely to happen again. IMO, Amendola takes over for Welker and as far as that element goes they don't miss a beat. The slot position in NE has been a gravy train for years, as even Troy Brown notched 90-100 catches a year playing with Brady and averaged over 1000 yards receiving.

Gronk and Hernandez have always been injury risks. But now they also have Ballard, who is a capable TE in his own right. Those 3 combined will produce what the Pats usually get out of the TE spot.

Woodhead is gone and will be replaced with Vereen, who is more than capable and likely just as quick. Woodhead took over for Faulk, so I see that the 3rd down/COP role as one that is almost plug and play.

The only real true question mark IMO is having someone to fill the void left by Lloyd leaving in terms of total numbers. And Lloyd may not be totally out of the picture, as they could resign him in a heartbeat. The question becomes can Edelman, Dobson, and Boyce combined add up to what Lloyd produced last year.

Overall, I suspect the Pats will run a little more this year, especially if Gronk is not available to start the year. But I would not panic on the NE offense. People said Welker was a no name and would never do anything. People said Brady's numbers would never be close to the same without Moss. People said they would never be able to get a clutch receiver out of the backfield to replace Faulk. Literally all the names other than Brady have changed over the years, and I haven't seen much drop off offensively, have you?

So are you saying that the Patriots could march anyone out there and have the success they've had through the years? Amendola is not Welker.

So you knew Welker was going to be an uber-stud when he came over for a bag of peanuts from the Fins? Please.

Amendola in his current state is light years better than what Welker was when he arrived.

Brady does more with less than anyone in the league... maybe ever. He's been working some with some "alternative" coaches during the off-season and supposedly is feeling better than ever about his throwing motion.

Pleased Brady dynasty owner here, and I would do backflips in my redrafts if folks thought along these lines.

A bag of peanuts? Please.

If you don't remember things, don't just blow smoke. The Patriots traded a 4th round pick for Randy Moss, but they traded a 2nd and a 7th for Welker.

Personally, I was very impressed with Welker at Texas Tech, but I'm not one to draft guys based off my eyeball test. What he did in his second season in the NFL was very good for an undrafted free agent with Joey Harrington as his QB. 100 targets for 67 receptions. Obviously that is a 67% catch ratio which is solid for any WR, but that should always be looked at in comparison to QB completion percentage as the two share a strong correlation. The Dolphins, in this case, threw for less than 58% that year, making his numbers even more impressive.

I know the 3-year WR theory is not very relevant these days, but that's because guys get thrown into the mix very quickly. For an UDFA, it takes 3 years to work your way up the ranks. 67 receptions in just a second season should've raised everyone's eyebrows, but it was a short white guy on a terrible team so it didn't. But getting traded to the Pats for a gigantic bag of peanuts should have, but no, Randy Moss was also traded for, so that was also overshadowed.

So yes, the writing was on the wall for Welker being very good in New England for anyone who had half a brain. No one could have predicted 112 receptions, but he was easily worth targeting as a value play.

Off topic for this post, but I'd like to agree that Amendola is not Welker. He's not a bad player, but he's not Welker. He'll compile stats if he gets 150 targets, but his skill set is simply not as good as Welker's. Younger and maybe faster 40 time? Sure, but there is a lot more to the position than that.

I eat really, really good peanuts. :oldunsure:

Obviously I didn't recall Welker went for that much. And yeah, this thread's obviously diverting and there are those that think Welker was godly when he came over from the Fins, and those that think he was a project with some obvious skills. It is my opinion (which I believe we're entitled to have, no?) that Amendola is a more refined WR than Welker was at his arrival time. :shrug:

And with that, I think I've exhausted all I care to say about this topic. :)

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Brady is not just any other QB, he is a Super Stud, this thread is for the haters to speculate.

:goodposting: This is just a ridiculous thread. Only way Brady does bad this year is if he gets hurt, or Amendola, Gronkowski and Hernandez are all out of the same game. WTF is this post?
"Does bad[ly]" is relative. In fantasy, I expect him to have a good season, but very likely finish far behind both Rodgers and Brees, and also behind Peyton, Cam, Ryan, and a couple of last year's phenom first-time starters or Stafford, or Romo. I don't see him as any better than QB6, with downside to around QB10. That isn't bad by any stretch, but it's also not really worth a third- or fourth-round pick.

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I've always liked Brady and have targeted in prior years, including his 50 TD-Pass season. But I'll be avoiding him like the plague this year. He has an alarming lack of proven skill position talent behind his "Big-3" of Amendola, Gronk, and Hernandez, and each of those three have a terrible injury history/risk. Nobody to stretch the field.

I know Belichek & Brady have always managed to get the most out of marginal talent, but when one or two of the Big-3 are sidelined, I just don't see where Top 5 QB stats can come from. Even Teblow could vulture a few TD's if they use him in a goal-line package. I'm seeing 4500/30 as his ceiling with considerable downside risk...

Quick ... without looking it up, who were Brady's wide receivers when he won three super bowls?

Hint: Not Welker or Moss.

QBs make the WRs. Not hesitating to nab Brady this year. It's June. Stop getting fancy. If Brady isn't injured then he is a complete beast. Last year NE ranked top 5 in rushing attempts and he still killed it fantasy-wise. And since when is NE's offense predicated on stretching the field? They've had one true field-stretcher in the past 10 years and they didn't win the Super Bowl with him on the roster.

You just made his point for him.

Brady did NOT put up elite fantasy QB numbers when they won Super Bowls. He was a solid QB but nothing spectacular.

Real life elite production =/= elite fantasy production

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After yesterday, maybe Brady isn't the Patriot we should be most worried about being involved in a bust.

:doh:

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Tom Brady, Patriots in trouble minus Rob Gronkowski?

By Chris Wesseling

Around the League Writer

From a statistical standpoint, Tom Brady was Aaron Rodgers when Rob Gronkowski was on the field last season and Andy Dalton when the All-Pro tight end was sidelined.

Brady and J.J. Watt of the Houston Texans were the best players I saw on film through November, at which point the New England Patriots quarterback was No. 2 in Gregg Rosenthal's MVP forecast. Gronkowski went down the next week with a broken forearm, essentially sending Brady's aerial attack into a tailspin.

According to numbers compiled by NFL.com, Brady posted a 65.7 completion percentage, a 23-3 touchdown-to-interception ratio and a 106.6 passer rating with 7.9 yards per attempt on snaps with Gronkowski on the field. Those numbers plummeted to a 58.9 completion percentage, an 11-5 touchdown-to-interception ratio and an 87.1 passer rating with 7.1 yards per attempt on snaps without Gronkowski.

To be fair, Brady also was dealing with a hobbled Aaron Hernandez and Wes Welker in addition to the loss of Julian Edelman in early December. Still the effect of losing the NFL's best tight end and most dominant red-zone presence cannot be overstated. Since he entered the league in 2010, Gronkowski leads the NFL in red-zone touchdowns (29), quarterback-to-receiver completion percentage (72.2) and yards after contact per reception (2.54).

Brady's 2012 touchdown percentage was his lowest since 2009. His yards per attempt were at their lowest since 2008, and his completion percentage at its lowest since 2006.

Patriots fans always will wonder if Gronkowski's high-ankle sprain cost them a Lombardi Trophy against the New York Giants. They also might believe last year's AFC Championship Game would have played out differently if Gronkowski was available. Those two games are Brady's lowest-scoring of the past two seasons.

There's a lesson here for fantasy football leaguers as well. Saddled with a shaky receiving corps in addition to the cloudy nature of Gronkowski's early-season status, Brady is fighting an uphill battle for a fourth consecutive top-five finish.

Follow Chris Wesseling on Twitter @ChrisWesseling.

Edited by Faust

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Tom Brady missing his top Patriots targets from 2012

By Marc Sessler

Around the League Writer

Published: May 31, 2013 at 09:57 a.m.

Updated: May 31, 2013 at 10:42 p.m.

Tom Brady is throwing to ghosts.

The New England Patriots quarterback is working with a flock of new faces as the team makes its way through this week's organized team activities.

Wes Welker is gone, but that's not all: Andy Hart of the team's official site points out that Brady is without his top seven targets from a season ago.

Welker (after accounting for 118 catches last year) is cozying up to Peyton Manning on the Denver Broncos. Meanwhile, Brandon Lloyd (74 catches in 2012) is unemployed; Rob Gronkowski (55) is AWOL following repeated surgeries on his forearm, with a back procedure up next; and Aaron Hernandez (51) is rehabbing from a shoulder operation. Danny Woodhead (40) joined the Chargers, Julian Edelman (21) is battling a foot injury and Deion Branch (16) is a free agent. Still with us?

Brady's next leading pass-catcher from a season ago? Running back Shane Vereen, who accounted for eight receptions in 2012.

It's too early to panic in New England, but it's challenging to build chemistry with receivers who aren't there. The clear upside is more snaps and targets for the newly acquired Danny Amendola, who's under pressure to clone Welker's production. Without help around him -- especially Gronk -- that won't be easy.

Follow Marc Sessler on Twitter @MarcSesslerNFL.

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I love when people point to instances where PLAYER X was out so other (usually bad) things happened. One would expect if a big offensive component were to go down due to injury that things would not go as smoothly . . . especially when a team is not used to not having that player available.

In Gronk's case, the Pats had a chance to start getting used to not having him in the line up at the end of last year. They will have had all of minicamp, OTA's, and training camp (and maybe even a few regular season games) to practice with out him. It stands to reason that the NE offense would be more productive with a healthy Gronkowski in the line up. However, this time around I think the impact will be less severe if he were to miss time.

And sometimes I think people exist just to stir the pot and look for things that aren't really there. Gronk missed 5 games last year (including games against the #2 ranked team against the pass in NYJ and #4 SF) . . . and NE went 4-1 and averaged 34 ppg without him.

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I have no doubt Brady will excel with whoever he has on the field. Top 5 should be a cakewalk for him.

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yeah...I'm now assuming Hernandez will miss significant time. Also assuming Gronk is out for a while too.

I'm starting to buy off on the notion that Brady will have trouble cracking top 5, possibly top 10.

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yeah...I'm now assuming Hernandez will miss significant time. Also assuming Gronk is out for a while too.

I'm starting to buy off on the notion that Brady will have trouble cracking top 5, possibly top 10.

Based on...?

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yeah...I'm now assuming Hernandez will miss significant time. Also assuming Gronk is out for a while too.

I'm starting to buy off on the notion that Brady will have trouble cracking top 5, possibly top 10.

Based on...?

Seriously. Significant time?? If he misses ANY time from this it will be a career ender. He either misses nothing or his freedom for 20 years.

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I have no doubt Brady will excel with whoever he has on the field. Top 5 should be a cakewalk for him.

This is crazy talk. "NO" doubt?? Not even a little??

I can't call it any better than 50-50, and even at those odds I would bet he finishes outside the top 5.

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I have no doubt Brady will excel with whoever he has on the field. Top 5 should be a cakewalk for him.

This is crazy talk. "NO" doubt?? Not even a little??

I can't call it any better than 50-50, and even at those odds I would bet he finishes outside the top 5.

What would make him any worse than he has been the last half dozen years?

Yes, I have NO doubt.

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Add me to the list of those who aren't calling Brady a bust but won't draft him at his current ADP of QB3. I have owned him in one of my two main leagues for the last 4 years, but there is just enough adding up (age, questions about weapons, etc) for me to let someone else reach out on him. Someone will. Nothing major, as he will probably end up around QB5 in my rankings.

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I have no doubt Brady will excel with whoever he has on the field. Top 5 should be a cakewalk for him.

This is crazy talk. "NO" doubt?? Not even a little??

I can't call it any better than 50-50, and even at those odds I would bet he finishes outside the top 5.

What would make him any worse than he has been the last half dozen years?

Yes, I have NO doubt.

He isn't worse, but his weapons are directly related to how good his stats can be. Gronk missing half the year hurts. Welker gone and Amendola is made of glass. Who knows on hernandez.

It has nothing to do with whether or not Brady is a worse player or not, cause he isn't. Not to mention Manning looks like he will score better. Ryan also. SOme other guys can be top 5 pretty easily like Newton, Wilson, Kaepernick.

Saying NO doubt means it's a sure thing. Sorry, it is NOT a sure thing

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I have no doubt Brady will excel with whoever he has on the field. Top 5 should be a cakewalk for him.

This is crazy talk. "NO" doubt?? Not even a little??

I can't call it any better than 50-50, and even at those odds I would bet he finishes outside the top 5.

What would make him any worse than he has been the last half dozen years?

Yes, I have NO doubt.

He isn't worse, but his weapons are directly related to how good his stats can be. Gronk missing half the year hurts. Welker gone and Amendola is made of glass. Who knows on hernandez.

It has nothing to do with whether or not Brady is a worse player or not, cause he isn't. Not to mention Manning looks like he will score better. Ryan also. SOme other guys can be top 5 pretty easily like Newton, Wilson, Kaepernick.

Saying NO doubt means it's a sure thing. Sorry, it is NOT a sure thing

A lot of assuming here.

Gronk may not even miss a game. Amendola is healthy, younger and faster than Welker. And Hernandez is more likely to be there than not. They also have a bunch of very interesting rookie WR prospects in camp to go along with Donald Jones.

Yeah, I have NO doubt Brady will be top 5.

You can have all the doubt you want, but I don't have any.

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I'm not crazy about the weapons in NE this season but when Brady has an oline as solid as he does now it shouldn't matter a great deal. Perhaps he slips a bit with Welker gone, Gronk recovering and new guys learning on the fly. Still, he should put up top 5 QB numbers.

Edited by jurb26

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Welker gone and Amendola is made of glass.

I am getting tired of reciting this, but let's try one more time.

In the same time frame, Welker had 1 major injury and Amendola had 2. But because Welker's happened in the season finale, he somehow gets a pass because he didn't miss games. Had his injury happened in Week 1, he would have missed the entire season.

Amendola landed the wrong way twice and once broke his elbow and the other time a bone in his shoulder. The chances of either happening even one time is slim, so the chances of either happening again are even more remote. And since he unfortunately suffered his injuries early in the year, that served to derail most of both seasons.

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I have no doubt Brady will excel with whoever he has on the field. Top 5 should be a cakewalk for him.

This is crazy talk. "NO" doubt?? Not even a little??

I can't call it any better than 50-50, and even at those odds I would bet he finishes outside the top 5.

What would make him any worse than he has been the last half dozen years?

Yes, I have NO doubt.

"PatsFanCT" thinks the Pats will be awesome? I'm shocked, shocked!

The biggest difference is no Welker. I maintain that's going to be a bigger difference than anyone in Boston believes. Amendola's a good player, but Welker is one of the best players in the league and the engine on which the NE passing offense ran. The smaller differences are all over the receiving corps.

Edited by We Tigers

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I am new to the boards but I bet this has been going on ever since his record year. When he does finally fall off all the haters will be like see I told you so. Too bad they won't realize they were like 1 for 5 or something in their prediction.

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I have no doubt Brady will excel with whoever he has on the field. Top 5 should be a cakewalk for him.

This is crazy talk. "NO" doubt?? Not even a little??

I can't call it any better than 50-50, and even at those odds I would bet he finishes outside the top 5.

What would make him any worse than he has been the last half dozen years?

Yes, I have NO doubt.

"PatsFanCT" thinks the Pats will be awesome? I'm shocked, shocked!

The biggest difference is no Welker. I maintain that's going to be a bigger difference than anyone in Boston believes. Amendola's a good player, but Welker is one of the best players in the league and the engine on which the NE passing offense ran. The smaller differences are the all over the receiving corps.

So riddle me this. Welker was mostly an unheralded nobody before he got to NE. Amendola went to the same college, played the same position, put up better numbers as a senior, and has been a target of NE's for well beyond this year and into last year. Given that the Pats, their coaching, their, system, and their QB essentially made Welker what he is, wouldn't the team deserve some credit for trying for quite a while to land his replacement (which essentially is a very similar player)? I mean, we all here have 30 years of experience coaching in the NFL, certainly we know as much as more as the guys on the New England.staff.

If BB and the NE brass really, truly felt that they couldn't replace Welker they would have tried to keep him. I mean really, really tried to keep him. I will give them the benefit on the doubt on this one that they know what they are doing. How many ex-Pats receivers on tight ends went on to do much of anything on any other team? So far they have had the ability to know when to let someone go.

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I'm sure New England thinks Amendola is the closest thing they can get to a Welker replacement, and he might be. But as someone who's watched both guys play a lot of games, I really don't think he is. I don't see why we should give the Pats the benefit of the doubt regarding receivers--in fact, I think they're one of the less impressive teams in the league when it comes to identifying talent at the position. They haven't drafted a useful receiver since who knows when, Welker and Moss are their only strong veteran acquisitions at the position in recent memory (aside from reacquiring Deion Branch).

What they've obviously identified is that the small, quick slot receiver is a very valuable component of their offense. They may have gotten a pretty good replacement, but I'll be pretty surprised if he approaches Welker numbers/effectiveness.

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yeah...I'm now assuming Hernandez will miss significant time. Also assuming Gronk is out for a while too.

I'm starting to buy off on the notion that Brady will have trouble cracking top 5, possibly top 10.

Based on...?

based on this. I understand that you prefer to bury your head in the sand and pretend that Hernandez will skate by as if nothing happened. I do not.

I am not encumbered by that whole pesky until proven guilty bit In fact, as someone currently engaged in evaluating Fantasy Football prospects for 2013, it's in my best interest to be assuming the worst. Say I assume Hernandez only plays 8 games and he actually plays 16...so I didn't draft him, and instead took the next guy on the list. Big deal, nothing really lost. Now, consider the opposite - you project Hernandez to play 16, but he only plays 8. Now, you are getting only 1/2 the production you paid for - not really a winning formula.

I would hope that even you acknowledge that there is now a non-zero probability that Hernandez is not on the opening day active roster as a result of recent news.

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yeah...I'm now assuming Hernandez will miss significant time. Also assuming Gronk is out for a while too.

I'm starting to buy off on the notion that Brady will have trouble cracking top 5, possibly top 10.

Based on...?

based on this. I understand that you prefer to bury your head in the sand and pretend that Hernandez will skate by as if nothing happened. I do not.

I am not encumbered by that whole pesky until proven guilty bit In fact, as someone currently engaged in evaluating Fantasy Football prospects for 2013, it's in my best interest to be assuming the worst. Say I assume Hernandez only plays 8 games and he actually plays 16...so I didn't draft him, and instead took the next guy on the list. Big deal, nothing really lost. Now, consider the opposite - you project Hernandez to play 16, but he only plays 8. Now, you are getting only 1/2 the production you paid for - not really a winning formula.

I would hope that even you acknowledge that there is now a non-zero probability that Hernandez is not on the opening day active roster as a result of recent news.

We certainly have no real details on either incident, but if Hernandez now were to claim this guy is out to make a buck and Hernandez says he had nothing to do with it, it's possibly he could skate. At this point it could be he said, he said with no witnesses, no evidence, no weapon, no real police report, etc. I'd be interested if there's much linking Hernandez to the guy or the crime scene. If the gun is unregistered, it would be even more difficult to connect Hernandez to it. The league might not like it, but unless there is more to the story, on the surface this whole thing appears to be sketchy. Who waits 4 months to do something?

As for the homicide, it could turn out that Hernandez had nothing to do with it, in which case I am not sure the league would look to suspend him. Of course, things could get really dicey if Hernandez were to be implicated as a co-conspirator or participant in a homicide, but I think we are a long way from that point if it even gets that far. if it turns out the same gun was used in Florida and Massachusetts incidents, well, then that's a whole different ball game.

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Every QB is different though and Brady is obviously a 1st ballot HOF and you can even make an argument for GOAT.

Brady is never going to pass Terry Bradshaw or Montana as GOAT with only three Super Bowl wins. And anyone who doesn't think TB was more dominant in his time than Brady is now has to go read some football history books. Don't bother with stats, either. It wasn't a stats game back then.

Bradshaw threw 212 TDs and 210 INTs in his NFL career. No, stats are not everything, but +2 for your career in TD/INT ratio is hardly stellar.

I guess you think Troy Aikman is better all-time than Steve Young, Peyton Manning and John Elway, right?

Posts like this make me sad.

There are so few people that understand the game from a historical perspective and ##### on all these old QBs because of ridiculous measures like TD:INT ratio. Yea, it's ridiculous. Back then it was considered a GREAT game if you could throw for 150 yards and a touchdown any given week.

  • Offensive lineman could not use their hands to block - wrap your head around that one.
  • Defensive lineman could punch O-lineman in the head.
  • Cornerbacks could basically molest/tackle WRs.
  • There were no protections on QBs.

If Terry Bradshaw played in today's game he would be one of, if not the most, dominate QB in the game. His courage in the pocket was astounding, his arm strength was legendary, and his accuracy was top notch.

That defense argument is a load of horsesh.t. Yes, he had a good defense. But he also won two of those Super Bowls by himself with game-winning drives. Read some history books about the NFL.

I'm astounded by the lack of respect given to older players. In baseball people like Ted Williams are revered, even though he looks like a toothpick compared to the sluggers of today. Yet football players are all inferior because they don't look the same or have the same fantasy-induced stats. It's baloney. You think Ponder is better because he averages 200+ yards per game, when Terry Bradshaw never did that? What a bunch of bull.

Edited by meyerj31

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I have no doubt Brady will excel with whoever he has on the field. Top 5 should be a cakewalk for him.

This is crazy talk. "NO" doubt?? Not even a little??

I can't call it any better than 50-50, and even at those odds I would bet he finishes outside the top 5.

What would make him any worse than he has been the last half dozen years?

Yes, I have NO doubt.

"PatsFanCT" thinks the Pats will be awesome? I'm shocked, shocked!

The biggest difference is no Welker. I maintain that's going to be a bigger difference than anyone in Boston believes. Amendola's a good player, but Welker is one of the best players in the league and the engine on which the NE passing offense ran. The smaller differences are all over the receiving corps.

A Giants fan thinks the Pats will suck. I'm shocked, shocked!

You believe not having Welker is going to make a difference, and I do not. Let's just argue that for three months.

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Every QB is different though and Brady is obviously a 1st ballot HOF and you can even make an argument for GOAT.

Brady is never going to pass Terry Bradshaw or Montana as GOAT with only three Super Bowl wins. And anyone who doesn't think TB was more dominant in his time than Brady is now has to go read some football history books. Don't bother with stats, either. It wasn't a stats game back then.

Bradshaw threw 212 TDs and 210 INTs in his NFL career. No, stats are not everything, but +2 for your career in TD/INT ratio is hardly stellar.

I guess you think Troy Aikman is better all-time than Steve Young, Peyton Manning and John Elway, right?

Posts like this make me sad.

There are so few people that understand the game from a historical perspective and ##### on all these old QBs because of ridiculous measures like TD:INT ratio. Yea, it's ridiculous. Back then it was considered a GREAT game if you could throw for 150 yards and a touchdown any given week.

  • Offensive lineman could not use their hands to block - wrap your head around that one.
  • Defensive lineman could punch O-lineman in the head.
  • Cornerbacks could basically molest/tackle WRs.
  • There were no protections on QBs.

If Terry Bradshaw played in today's game he would be one of, if not the most, dominate QB in the game. His courage in the pocket was astounding, his arm strength was legendary, and his accuracy was top notch.

That defense argument is a load of horsesh.t. Yes, he had a good defense. But he also won two of those Super Bowls by himself with game-winning drives. Read some history books about the NFL.

I'm astounded by the lack of respect given to older players. In baseball people like Ted Williams are revered, even though he looks like a toothpick compared to the sluggers of today. Yet football players are all inferior because they don't look the same or have the same fantasy-induced stats. It's baloney. You think Ponder is better because he averages 200+ yards per game, when Terry Bradshaw never did that? What a bunch of bull.

Let's not get crazy. Bradshaw was a decent QB, but if the Steelers don't win 4 titles, no one would be talking about Terry Bradshaw in 2013. To gain some perspective on things, Bradshaw ranked in the Top 5 in completion percentage once, passing yards twice, passer rating twice, lowest INT percentage twice, and passing TD 4 times. Statistically he was not a HOFer passed on his stats (again, winning counts a lot and winning titles counts even more, that's not the argument here).

As for the winning part, there were few better teams (or more talented ones) in the history of the league, and IIRC the 70s Steelers have the most HOFers on it than any other team. (Not most HOFers as a franchise . . .the most HOFers that played together at the same time.)

I'm not belittling what Bradshaw did and the players he played with, but compare that to Brady. Of the Super Bowl winning Patriots teams, the HOFers from that team will be Tom Brady and . . . at this point probably no one (at least there are no locks by any stretch of the imagination). Suffice it to say that Brady has done almost as well in terms of total titles with essentially lesser of a team than Bradshaw did.

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yeah...I'm now assuming Hernandez will miss significant time. Also assuming Gronk is out for a while too.

I'm starting to buy off on the notion that Brady will have trouble cracking top 5, possibly top 10.

Based on...?

based on this. I understand that you prefer to bury your head in the sand and pretend that Hernandez will skate by as if nothing happened. I do not.

I am not encumbered by that whole pesky until proven guilty bit In fact, as someone currently engaged in evaluating Fantasy Football prospects for 2013, it's in my best interest to be assuming the worst. Say I assume Hernandez only plays 8 games and he actually plays 16...so I didn't draft him, and instead took the next guy on the list. Big deal, nothing really lost. Now, consider the opposite - you project Hernandez to play 16, but he only plays 8. Now, you are getting only 1/2 the production you paid for - not really a winning formula.

I would hope that even you acknowledge that there is now a non-zero probability that Hernandez is not on the opening day active roster as a result of recent news.

Lol. Yeah, burying my head in the sand because a drug adict with a rap sheet who first tells police two guys he didn't know shoots him, and then four months later sues Hernandez without even filing a police report against him, is going to get him suspended. Good one.

It's really pretty simple. If it comes out that Hernandez killed this guy, or was involved in any way, he gets suspended, if not in jail. If it turns out the gun used back in February is linked back to Hernandez, he gets suspended. In no other way does he get suspended. Getting sued four months after the fact gets him suspended. Give me a break. Even you can't possible believe that.

And the odds of him being suspended at this point is very, very low.

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There are so few people that understand the game from a historical perspective and ##### on all these old QBs because of ridiculous measures like TD:INT ratio. Yea, it's ridiculous. Back then it was considered a GREAT game if you could throw for 150 yards and a touchdown any given week.

  • Offensive lineman could not use their hands to block - wrap your head around that one.
  • Defensive lineman could punch O-lineman in the head.
  • Cornerbacks could basically molest/tackle WRs.
  • There were no protections on QBs.

If Terry Bradshaw played in today's game he would be one of, if not the most, dominate QB in the game. His courage in the pocket was astounding, his arm strength was legendary, and his accuracy was top notch.

Even in the context of his era he was only an above-average QB at best for the first half of his career. I don't give him a lot of credit for the first 2 Super Bowls since the Steelers could have won them with Trent Dilfer.

Starting in 1977 he became a much better passer - with the exception of his INT's (he was never in the top 10 in INT%). He definitely earned the 79 and 80 SB's, especially in 79 against the Cowboys.

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Color me slightly worried. His surrounding talent has clearly taken a hit. One of these rookies need to show something in preseason for me to put him back in the top tier again.

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I have no doubt Brady will excel with whoever he has on the field. Top 5 should be a cakewalk for him.

This is crazy talk. "NO" doubt?? Not even a little??

I can't call it any better than 50-50, and even at those odds I would bet he finishes outside the top 5.

What would make him any worse than he has been the last half dozen years?

Yes, I have NO doubt.

He isn't worse, but his weapons are directly related to how good his stats can be. Gronk missing half the year hurts. Welker gone and Amendola is made of glass. Who knows on hernandez.

It has nothing to do with whether or not Brady is a worse player or not, cause he isn't. Not to mention Manning looks like he will score better. Ryan also. SOme other guys can be top 5 pretty easily like Newton, Wilson, Kaepernick.

Saying NO doubt means it's a sure thing. Sorry, it is NOT a sure thing

A lot of assuming here.

Gronk may not even miss a game. Amendola is healthy, younger and faster than Welker. And Hernandez is more likely to be there than not. They also have a bunch of very interesting rookie WR prospects in camp to go along with Donald Jones.

Yeah, I have NO doubt Brady will be top 5.

You can have all the doubt you want, but I don't have any.

I'll take a piece of that action!

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What will be interesting is when Brady drops back to pass and has 7 or 8 seconds to throw the ball (like he will on many occasions with, by all current accounts, a healthy OL), will he not be able to find a single open guy to throw to? Will the receivers on the field be so inept that he won't be able to complete a pass in those situations?

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You don't keep the best player in the NFL on the bench. Period.

Yes, Adrian Peterson will get plenty of playing time this season.

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What will be interesting is when Brady drops back to pass and has 7 or 8 seconds to throw the ball (like he will on many occasions with, by all current accounts, a healthy OL), will he not be able to find a single open guy to throw to? Will the receivers on the field be so inept that he won't be able to complete a pass in those situations?

Is there an advanced stat that can show how many yards Brady threw for prior to the catch? Gronk, AH, and Welker are some of the better after the catch runners at their positions. Brady is a great player, but having those weapons made it easier.

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It's early,and a lot of good news and bad news can come up between now and week 1. But "what if" Gronk's back surgery keeps him out for a prolonged period of time,and "what if" Hernandez is in some deep crap in his personal life(as recent reports suggest). I know Brady is an elite QB,but what do his owners think of Amendola(if HE can stay healthy),Dobson,Ballard and Fells as his primary targets? Brady's still going to put up good numbers,but how far down the "elite" list does he drop if the "what if's " happen?

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It's early,and a lot of good news and bad news can come up between now and week 1. But "what if" Gronk's back surgery keeps him out for a prolonged period of time,and "what if" Hernandez is in some deep crap in his personal life(as recent reports suggest). I know Brady is an elite QB,but what do his owners think of Amendola(if HE can stay healthy),Dobson,Ballard and Fells as his primary targets? Brady's still going to put up good numbers,but how far down the "elite" list does he drop if the "what if's " happen?

Well, besides Ballard and Fells, and the other promising WR's, UFA TE Zach Sudfeld has shined in the OTA's. He's another Gronk size guy. 6' 7, 255 and athletic. There will also be plenty of free agents available one the rosters start getting cut, so I think Brady will be fine.

Eta - The bolded really needs to stop.

Edited by PatsFanCT

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