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Official Tom Brady - bust alert (in 2013)

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4 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

There’s a difference between having to work with his receivers and being willing to work extra in off hours with people. Brady made it clear that he wasn’t going to work outside of practice with the kids or the new guys. With Harry, he wished him well when he came back and hoped he could get himself up to speed quickly and eventually contribute, but he wasn’t going to sit Harry down and go over plays and he wasn’t going to work with him one on one outside of practice. Brady essentially would work with whichever receivers were in the receiving line for drills and whomever lined up with the offense flto practice plays. How that gets described and what the semantics are will be open to interpretation. But Brady wasn’t exactly gushing to have to work harder to bring them along. Even when Antonio Brown showed up, it was the backup QBs and other coaches that stayed until midnight trying to get Brown up to speed. Does that make Brady a good guy? A bad guy? Neither?

I think you have misrepresented the situation. I’ll just leave it at that and we can move on.

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29 minutes ago, bicycle_seat_sniffer said:

gee yuds.....sounds like the kind of guy you dont want leading your franchise

I am in favor of them moving on. But I would be in the minority. 

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17 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I am in favor of them moving on. But I would be in the minority. 

Sounds like its up to Kraft if he wants to pay him big time, but I would pass if I was the Pats, getting older, poor attitude, not doing extra work....wants a ton of money

Sounds like a Chargers move to sell some seats......

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6 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

In defense of NE . . . they traded for Josh Gordon the year before (but he took another turn for the dark side). They signed Antonio Brown (who made Gordon look like a Boy Scout). They drafted N'Keal Harry with a first round pick (but he got hurt). Brady himself is said to have handpicked Sanu and they went out and got him (and he got hurt and struggled to pick up the offense). They initially brought in Demaryius Thomas (and swapped him out on the roster for AB). They were in on Adam Humphries but he picked the Titans instead. They were in on Jared Cook, but he wouldn't sign if Gronk was still in the picture and Gronk retired too late to sign Cook.

It's unfortunate his boy Jules got beat up and could barely finish the season. But not every move works out and not everyone stays healthy. Not every season has a Disney ending. But Brady refused to show up for anything that wasn't mandatory. (How was your trip to China and India?) He flat out refused to work with any of their younger receivers. And he got at least one day a week off (if not more) from practice for load management, family time, or nagging injuries. News flash Tom . . . things tend to go better when you actually practice with your new teammates. 

So yeah, sure. NE lacked weapons. But it's not like they didn't make an effort to get Brady weapons.  And it's not like he put forth max effort to get everyone on the same page. Brady has done more for the franchise than I could possibly list. But last year he was a certified, 100%, Grade A . . . D-I-V-A. Sure, he's earned the right . . . but he was way too mouthy and needed to man up and just play football.

With all due respect, who are you defending them against?

So to paraphrase your take, NE tried really hard to improve the offense and Brady "hand picked" Sanu (total BS, endorsing is not hand picking) so tuff crappies for him.

Yes "his boy" (many New Englanders think of him more as our boy but to each his own) the one solid weapon he had broke down, but TB needs to just suck it up like he has for the last 18 yrs.

"So yeah, sure. NE lacked weapons. But it's not like they didn't make an effort to get Brady weapons." Well there u go, they let their LT walk and their O-line is the worst its been in years and they allow their receiving core to go back to the Jabar Gaffney, Reche Caldwell level of talent and yet its all Tommy's fault for not "working hard enough".

 

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3 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I have heard / read the quotes about Brady not wanting to work with younger players with my own ears and eyes. Brady said it’s not his job and they need to get up to speed on their time, not his. I just listed multiple moves to try to get Brady help and more weapons. Isn’t adding guys during the season still adding weapons? 

BB has set the bar in recent years that the receivers are going to get swapped out. This isn’t news. But Brady has opted to no longer be the first guy in the door and is no longer in town a week before OTA’s start. That would be great if he still had Gronk and Amendola or Moss and Welker. Guys that know the system and guys who are already on the same page as Brady. But when you start adding pieces like Hogan, Cooks, Patterson, Harry, Sanu, Gordon, etc. there are going to be hurdles and not being there is a problem. Sure, taking a day off of practice once in a while isn’t going to kill anyone. But it sounded like there were weeks Brady barely practiced. 

That’s a different question. Does he get props for hitting it out and playing on Sunday? Or should they have given him a couple games off and would they have been better off in the long run?

Yes, you listed multiple moves where the FO tried to improve the offense but the fact of the matter is they failed miserably multiple times but its all Tommys fault.

 

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2 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

There’s a difference between having to work with his receivers and being willing to work extra in off hours with people. Brady made it clear that he wasn’t going to work outside of practice with the kids or the new guys. With Harry, he wished him well when he came back and hoped he could get himself up to speed quickly and eventually contribute, but he wasn’t going to sit Harry down and go over plays and he wasn’t going to work with him one on one outside of practice. Brady essentially would work with whichever receivers were in the receiving line for drills and whomever lined up with the offense flto practice plays. How that gets described and what the semantics are will be open to interpretation. But Brady wasn’t exactly gushing to have to work harder to bring them along. Even when Antonio Brown showed up, it was the backup QBs and other coaches that stayed until midnight trying to get Brown up to speed. Does that make Brady a good guy? A bad guy? Neither?

Hmmm, even when AB showed up he didn't get to work with the lazy, diva Brady and as youv'e pointed out again and again and again, working with brady and knowing the offense are super duper critical. It is no wonder Brady and Brown looked so lost (4-56-1td) in their 1 game with no practice time and less than 2 weeks to learn the offense. I mean call me crazy but its almost as if having talent/experience matters ........Yeah Tommyboy, its all his fault, he finally couldn't make chicken salad out of chicken crap; what an ### he is.......... Yeah lets move on,,,or damn we should have kept Jimmy G now theres a guy who knows how to work through adversity.............

All in good fun dude, i find some of your recent comments here truly baffling and over the top. NE didn't win the SB this yr but TB is pretty far down on my list of reasons why but I understand people tend to see what they want to see.  

Tell me Yuds, were you a Bledsoe guy? 

Edited by NE_REVIVAL
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5 minutes ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

Hmmm, even when AB showed up he didn't get to work with the lazy, diva Brady and as youv'e pointed out again and again and again, working with brady and knowing the offense are super duper critical. It is no wonder Brady and Brown looked so lost (4-56-1td) in their 1 game with no practice time and less than 2 weeks to learn the offense........Yeah Tommyboy, its all his fault, he couldn't make chicken salad out of chicken crap; what an ### he is.......... Yeah lets move on,,,or damn we should have kept Jimmy G now theres a guy who knows how to work through adversity.............

All in good fun dude, i find some of your recent comments here truly baffling and over the top. NE didn't win the SB this yr but TB is pretty far down on my list of reasons why but I understand people tend to see what they want to see.  

Tell me Yuds, were you a Bledsoe guy? 

Come on, you didn’t notice a radical change in Brady this season? Whether it be the time spent around the team? His press conferences? His comments? His body language? Him having plays with 8 seconds to throw and still getting sacked or having to throw the ball away.

Was he the sole reason the offense sputtered? Of course not. But he did not play as well as in other seasons and sometimes he just plain missed guys that were open. There’s no shame in suggesting his performance slipped some.

My overall point remains. Between last year into this year, NE made a concerted effort to add multiple pieces to the offense. For several reasons, things didn’t work out. But I think a lot of Pats fans are trying to ignore or excuse that Brady may not be an elite QB anymore. 

Getting back to the weapons issue, part of the issue the past few years was having too many moving or replacement parts as receivers. Bringing in and swapping out receivers again this off season will again lead to a big learning curve for the new guys. Back in 2007, Moss and Welker got added in and just clicked with Brady in his prime. Who knows who they could bring in this time around and how things would work out with Brady turning 43.

But if Brady does come back for $30M and adding in his rolled over cap hit, his cap number would be $37.5 million. Call me crazy, but where does the money come from then to start adding better weapons?

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The latest hot take on Brady is that the Niners may move on from Jimmy G. They have a window to release him and they would only have to eat a $4.5 million cap hit. That would allow Brady to move to SF and he would be playing near where he grew up. Then the Pats would bring back Garoppolo. At least that’s the road map. 

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4 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

The latest hot take on Brady is that the Niners may move on from Jimmy G. They have a window to release him and they would only have to eat a $4.5 million cap hit. That would allow Brady to move to SF and he would be playing near where he grew up. Then the Pats would bring back Garoppolo. At least that’s the road map. 

This is one of the silliest ones yet. SF isn’t going to move on from JG. 

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9 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Come on, you didn’t notice a radical change in Brady this season? Whether it be the time spent around the team? His press conferences? His comments? His body language? Him having plays with 8 seconds to throw and still getting sacked or having to throw the ball away.

Was he the sole reason the offense sputtered? Of course not. But he did not play as well as in other seasons and sometimes he just plain missed guys that were open. There’s no shame in suggesting his performance slipped some.

My overall point remains. Between last year into this year, NE made a concerted effort to add multiple pieces to the offense. For several reasons, things didn’t work out. But I think a lot of Pats fans are trying to ignore or excuse that Brady may not be an elite QB anymore. 

Getting back to the weapons issue, part of the issue the past few years was having too many moving or replacement parts as receivers. Bringing in and swapping out receivers again this off season will again lead to a big learning curve for the new guys. Back in 2007, Moss and Welker got added in and just clicked with Brady in his prime. Who knows who they could bring in this time around and how things would work out with Brady turning 43.

But if Brady does come back for $30M and adding in his rolled over cap hit, his cap number would be $37.5 million. Call me crazy, but where does the money come from then to start adding better weapons?

Yeah, i saw some of the things you mentioned and the mans 42 so it is hard to disprove the he is slipping argument even though imo many, particularly many of those from afar have little to no idea what they r talking about. Yep he was much more aloof this yr and did not play as well as other seasons no argument there but there is a lot more to it. With all that he has done for that franchise in his last couple of yrs they put together a 2005-2006 era rec core? How the f would u feel? That might have been understandable\acceptable when he was 27 but he is forty freakin two now; how about you make sure you give the guy some weapons, how about you sign him and let him finish here. He has played and acted selflessly for that tm for 18 yrs and at age 42 with all hes done they give him the shaft again. 

The FO tried really hard to improve the offense as if that exonerates them or changes anything? They tried and failed miserably, but its tbs fault for not working hard enough. It has been said that tb made it clear to anyone who was listening in early summer that they did not have nearly enough on offense. So they don't resign the greatest qb in history and they give him dog #### for weapons and suddenly he is a lazy diva and you are ready to move on.  

I watched brady play this yr and didn't see a huge drop off but i did see defs blitz and get instant pressure like never before, again and again; they did it because they knew ne didn't have the talent at rec to overcome it so it was throw away after throw away.

There is some truth with much of what you say but you are ignoring or leaving out much as well and there is no doubt in my mind the man can still play. The fo could have and should have done so much more to ensure he had what he needed (he earned that) and finished strong his last few years right here.

As for SF, I always felt if tb went anywhere that is where he would go but that was before Jimmah went there and played so well. There was never any doubt in my mind we kept the right qb and hope we can put that nonsense to rest but hard to believe SF would move on from jimmah even though it would probably turn out be a great move imo. 

 

Edited by NE_REVIVAL
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Tom Brady hates young WR's, and so does Belichick.  And it goes back alot more than just the last few seasons.

In the last 15 years, guess how many WR1's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?
In the last 15 years, guess how many WR2's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?
In the last 15 years, guess how many WR3's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?
In the last 15 years, guess how many WR4's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?
In the last 15 years, guess how many WR5's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?

If this helps answer the questions, there have been 304 instances of a WR in one of his first 3 seasons becoming a WR5 or better over the last 15 years.  Also, 22 teams have produced a WR1, 6 teams have done it for a WR2, and 3 other teams have produced WR3's.

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Regarding the possibility of the Pats paying Brady $30M in 2020, consider:

  1. Right now, counting their top 51 contracts, they have $44M in available 2020 cap space. That is accounting for $6.75M for Brady.
  2. They need to reserve ~$4M for practice squad and IR. Down to $40M.
  3. They should have a large number of draft picks and probably need to reserve at least $3M above the amounts of the current contracts they will replace in the top 51 for the rookie class. Down to $37M.

The current top 51 contracts do not include these notable free agents:

  1. 3 starting OL: G Thuney, C Karras, T Newhouse
  2. Key defensive players: ILB Van Noy, OLB Collins, IDL Shelton, FS McCourty

Pay Brady $30M on top of his $6.75M carryover cap hit, and they have just $7M remaining to retain whichever of these internal free agents they feel are important PLUS upgrading their receiving corps with external free agents. I realize they probably have other moves to make to clear some cap space, but that is a low starting point for their free agent budget.

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The overall point remains that NE is up against the cap. But Karras was filling in for David Andrews, who missed the season with a blood clotting issue. And Marcus Cannon is their starting tackle and Newhouse was picked up in season when Isaiah Wynn went on IR. Those two are small pieces compared to everyone else. 

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2 hours ago, Just Win Baby said:

This is one of the silliest ones yet. SF isn’t going to move on from JG. 

And the Pats just get gifted Garrapolo for free :lmao:

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5 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

And the Pats just get gifted Garrapolo for free :lmao:

Here you go guys. Franchise! :lmao:

Edited by rockaction
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3 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

The latest hot take on Brady is that the Niners may move on from Jimmy G. They have a window to release him and they would only have to eat a $4.5 million cap hit. That would allow Brady to move to SF and he would be playing near where he grew up. Then the Pats would bring back Garoppolo. At least that’s the road map. 

yeah....its a hot take alright

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2 hours ago, TheWinz said:

Tom Brady hates young WR's, and so does Belichick.  And it goes back alot more than just the last few seasons.

In the last 15 years, guess how many WR1's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?
In the last 15 years, guess how many WR2's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?
In the last 15 years, guess how many WR3's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?
In the last 15 years, guess how many WR4's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?
In the last 15 years, guess how many WR5's NE has produced in any of a WR's first 3 seasons?

If this helps answer the questions, there have been 304 instances of a WR in one of his first 3 seasons becoming a WR5 or better over the last 15 years.  Also, 22 teams have produced a WR1, 6 teams have done it for a WR2, and 3 other teams have produced WR3's.

Part of reason is they don't draft wr's high and the ones they've taken relatively high have almost all been flops.

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And to set the record straight, I don't think TB was one of the biggest issues with this year's Patriots. But he shared some blame with many others. However, a lot went on that was unfortunate for NE . . . some things happened that could not be avoided and others that may or may not have been avoided.

For example . . . Andrews missed the season. Wynn missed half the season. Gordon could not make strides in Year 2 and found his demons. AB didn't work out. Harry missed half the season and could not catch up. Develin went down. Gronk retired. Dorsett could not take on a bigger role. Edelman played at about 60% over the backend of the season.

In playing the blame game, I call things like I see them. BB hasn't drafted well at the top of the draft the last few years. McDaniels needed to do more with less this year and should have been able to come up with game plans that did a little more . . . especially in big spots. They were certifiably HORRIBLE in the red zone on offense. They overvalued how good the defense was playing tomato cans the first half of the season. They had more placekickers than I can name. They should have known that without a FB and without any blocking TE's that running the football was going to be a chore (and by extension that Michel would struggle). They should have known they needed at least a college level TE. They failed on third and fourth and short so many times I can't remember them all. They had no one to really stretch the field. They had way too many stupid penalties that changed the course of games. They should know by now that with Michel in the game teams play the run and not the pass (or that with White in the game they can play pass and not the run). In summary, there were lots of reasons they didn't win this year that had nothing to do with Brady.

As a generalized, blanket statement, the last 3 times NE did not get to the Super Bowl, injuries played a big part of that in those seasons (losing in the playoffs this year and the twice previously at DEN). It may not be a totally true statement, but the years the Pats are healthy at the end of the year, they seem to make deep playoff runs.

But the writing is on the wall. In season's past, they could get by with some ok pieces on offense or an ok defense. They could get in precarious situations and have Brady bail them out. But I believe we have reached the point where Brady can only be a piece of the puzzle and not the main piece. He might still be able to muster up a big drive once in a while, but I don't think he can be the guy that throws for 400 yards and wins a 38-35 game. 

Can NE still win with Brady? Yes . . . sort of. They can still win if they have a strong defense, special teams, and running game and Brady chips in some but not as the main guy. That's true in NE or anywhere else. I still think where Brady is these days limits what they can do. He's not going to start bombing the ball deep more than once a game (not that they have a true deep threat). He's not going to start running the RPO. He won't take off and run and extend plays with his legs. They need be able to run the football so Brady can carve people up on play action. But with NE forced to pass, they had a hard time. In short, there was no one defenses were scared of on the NE offense.

IMO, the way to improve the weapons on offense is by trade. Drafting a TE or WR will take too long for that player to develop. Signing a top tier free agent is going to cost too much. So they will likely have to go the route of what they did with Brandin Cooks. (Speaking of Cooks, what happened with him this season???)

I saw an article that outlined how the NE offense could be unstoppable again with a few acquisitions. Hot take alert ahead. The answer was signing Hunter Henry, trading for OJ Howard, and bringing back Amendola. I am not sure that would suddenly vault NE back to the head of the class for weapons and productivity. Their WR's would be Edelman, Amendola, Sanu, and Harry. Would that really scare anyone? They may be able to get Henry, Howard, Hooper, or Ebron . . . but I don't see them getting multiple established TE's. They will need to trade for an established, legit WR1 from somewhere. OBJ is the name that has come up several times . . . to which I say how would they be able to pay him?

But that's what keeps football interesting. Teams can change so much from one year to the next and there's 7 months for NE to recalibrate their roster.

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On 1/24/2020 at 4:28 PM, SeniorVBDStudent said:

We know that Cassell, Hoyer and Brissett have limited ceilings (Brissett being better than the other two, but somewhere short of franchise).

We don't know yet what Jimmy is.  If we see 175/1/3 or 375/3/0 in the superbowl that will go part way in figuring out that riddle.  I think he will perform at one of these two extremes.

We have no idea what Stidham is.

Jimmy fared about how I thought he would....219/1/2.

An interesting philosophical question would be is it wrong to only pass 8 times even if you can have 42 successful rushes?  

I feel like this is a lesson that Shanahan needs to learn.

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FTR, brady wasn't at his best this yr and hes not buying into the im all in no matter how badly u screw up the current tm for the sake of the future bs so yes it is fair to point out attitude and commitment were not up to the standards he has established over the last 18yrs. In fairness, this yrs tm looked a lot like 2006 and he knew it; it was bs what they did then and even more bs that they would do it again to this guy now at the very end of his career.

Yes NE had some terrible luck (nobodys fault) and a lot of things went wrong but it was a really weak fo effort imho and they didn't even bother to sign him so I can understand him being a bit fed up with it all.

I honestly didn't see a lot of drop off this yr, he is as smart as ever and can still bring the heat particularly short and intermediate but he has got to have protection and weapons around him. Edelman dropping that ball against ten, one that he catches 99 out of 100 times was a microcosm of their season, their best weapon playing as a shell of himself (because they have NO ONE ELSE) can't make a simple 1st down catch to keep a potential game winning\tying drive going. They just didn't have it this yr for so many of the reasons u listed and its too bad but imo the fo is far more to blame than tb and should have done more at this stage (the end) of the dynasty. I honestly don't see tb as holding them back this yr and if he leaves there gonna get a lot fn worse. Reasonable minds may disagree, its all good.

Edited by NE_REVIVAL

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10 hours ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

I honestly didn't see a lot of drop off this yr, he is as smart as ever and can still bring the heat particularly short and intermediate but he has got to have protection and weapons around him.

I think the problem for Brady and NE is that he's not exactly the only QB in football who fits this description. When you're trying to add water to the soup, you're looking for someone who can make some plays by running for his life. Brady leaving NE seems to call for one of those Manning to Denver type scenarios and those don't happen very often either.

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On 2/4/2020 at 6:02 AM, Anarchy99 said:

The latest hot take on Brady is that the Niners may move on from Jimmy G. They have a window to release him and they would only have to eat a $4.5 million cap hit. That would allow Brady to move to SF and he would be playing near where he grew up. Then the Pats would bring back Garoppolo. At least that’s the road map. 

This is the one I think he should do.  Winning a SB without BB would end any debate on who the greatest was.  49ers are so stacked they could still draft a young QB early and not miss a beat.

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22 minutes ago, LAUNCH said:
On 2/4/2020 at 7:02 AM, Anarchy99 said:

The latest hot take on Brady is that the Niners may move on from Jimmy G. They have a window to release him and they would only have to eat a $4.5 million cap hit. That would allow Brady to move to SF and he would be playing near where he grew up. Then the Pats would bring back Garoppolo. At least that’s the road map. 

This is the one I think he should do.  Winning a SB without BB would end any debate on who the greatest was.  49ers are so stacked they could still draft a young QB early and not miss a beat.

Garoppolo is a young franchise QB in his prime, and the 49ers have a nucleus that could support a consistent contender for many years. There is no chance they give up Garoppolo for a year or two with 42 year old Brady.

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14 minutes ago, Sasgaard said:

Am I the only one who thinks Garoppolo is just an above average QB?

No, I think that's kind of the consensus. 

An above-average QB is better than Tom Brady at this point in his career.

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3 hours ago, CalBear said:

No, I think that's kind of the consensus. 

An above-average QB is better than Tom Brady at this point in his career.

depends how much you pay both

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10 minutes ago, Sasgaard said:

depends how much you pay both

And how long you plan on having either.

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On 2/4/2020 at 9:22 PM, NE_REVIVAL said:

I honestly don't see tb as holding them back this yr and if he leaves there gonna get a lot fn worse. Reasonable minds may disagree, its all good.

Agree. I think everyone saying he's done is just wishful thinking.

The Tom Brady I saw against a tough BUF secondary before they mailed it in against MIA going 26-33-271-1 looked pretty damn good to me.

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1 hour ago, kyoun1e said:

Agree. I think everyone saying he's done is just wishful thinking.

The Tom Brady I saw against a tough BUF secondary before they mailed it in against MIA going 26-33-271-1 looked pretty damn good to me.

No one really said he was "done" - just that he has shown signs of decline and will be another year older in 2020. At 42/43 the cliff can come suddenly.

On the flip side, anyone saying he hasn't shown signs of decline is a serious homer and/or in denial. He is still a good QB and can win games - he's just no longer elite and will need more from his supporting cast than ever.

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2 hours ago, Dr. Octopus said:

No one really said he was "done" - just that he has shown signs of decline and will be another year older in 2020. At 42/43 the cliff can come suddenly.

On the flip side, anyone saying he hasn't shown signs of decline is a serious homer and/or in denial. He is still a good QB and can win games - he's just no longer elite and will need more from his supporting cast than ever.

Which is why I think situation is everything. Money and location are nice, but he needs a team that's going to be good enough to win in the next couple of years. 

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13 minutes ago, Leroy Hoard said:

Which is why I think situation is everything. Money and location are nice, but he needs a team that's going to be good enough to win in the next couple of years. 

Brady needs a team like NE (good D/ST, usually good running attack, strong coaching) . . . just with an offense with more weapons. So if the answer to the riddle is NE with more weapons, then why not NE with more weapons? If NE were to bring back Gronk and Amendola, neither one of those would break the bank. If they wanted to go all in on one last ride, maybe they trade a pick for a receiver on an expiring contract that will be gone after a year (Allen Robinson? Tyler Boyd? Keenan Allen?).

I know, I know, that's not realistically going to happen. Gronk is a pipe dream, but for ha-ha's, that would give NE:

RB: Michel, White, Harris (move on from Burkhead)
WR: One of the 3 guys I mentioned in a trade, Edelman, Sanu, Amendola, Harry
TE: Gronk and either a free agent or a rookie

IMO, that would not cost a ton, would give Brady both familiar faces, more firepower, and veteran players (since that's what NE and Brady prefer). While unlikely to happen, I would think that path would have a much greater chance of success than Brady going elsewhere and having to start all over with a new system, new coaches, and new players. I don't really think Brady wants to leave, but I don't think Brady was very happy with NE last year.

A potential new team would need to be a contender with an offense where Brady would be considered an upgrade. I don't think there are many teams where Brady at his age would be much of an upgrade. I am not sure there are that many top tier teams that would want Brady . . . and I am not sure Brady would want the teams that may want him.

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5 hours ago, kyoun1e said:

Agree. I think everyone saying he's done is just wishful thinking.

The Tom Brady I saw against a tough BUF secondary before they mailed it in against MIA going 26-33-271-1 looked pretty damn good to me.

The leading receiver in that game was Rex Burkhead, and lol at "mailed it in against MIA"- that game was huge for the Pats and Brady flat out didn't get it done.

No one is saying he's "done" as in can't play at all anymore, but his days of being anything close to elite are in the past.

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

Brady needs a team like NE (good D/ST, usually good running attack, strong coaching) . . . just with an offense with more weapons. So if the answer to the riddle is NE with more weapons, then why not NE with more weapons? If NE were to bring back Gronk and Amendola, neither one of those would break the bank. If they wanted to go all in on one last ride, maybe they trade a pick for a receiver on an expiring contract that will be gone after a year (Allen Robinson? Tyler Boyd? Keenan Allen?).

LOL at trading a pick for Allen or Robinson. Some of the hype around what can/will be done for Brady is just silly.

1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

I know, I know, that's not realistically going to happen. Gronk is a pipe dream, but for ha-ha's, that would give NE:

RB: Michel, White, Harris (move on from Burkhead)
WR: One of the 3 guys I mentioned in a trade, Edelman, Sanu, Amendola, Harry
TE: Gronk and either a free agent or a rookie

IMO, that would not cost a ton, would give Brady both familiar faces, more firepower, and veteran players (since that's what NE and Brady prefer). While unlikely to happen, I would think that path would have a much greater chance of success than Brady going elsewhere and having to start all over with a new system, new coaches, and new players. I don't really think Brady wants to leave, but I don't think Brady was very happy with NE last year.

Again, this is not realistic. Define "would not cost a ton". Just exactly how much cap space do you think Gronk + Robinson/Boyd/Allen + Amendola would take? Now, how much does Brady take? Now, which of NE's compelling internal free agents are you expecting they will let walk as a result of all of this? See my post about their cap situation higher up on this page.

Bottom line, NE cannot have all of Brady, the same or better quality OL, improved targets for the passing game, and the same top caliber defense. The cap just doesn't support it. So they have to pick what can be sacrificed from that list.

1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

A potential new team would need to be a contender with an offense where Brady would be considered an upgrade. I don't think there are many teams where Brady at his age would be much of an upgrade. I am not sure there are that many top tier teams that would want Brady . . . and I am not sure Brady would want the teams that may want him.

I don't think there are any such teams. Someone name one team that meets all of these criteria:

  1. 43 year old Brady would be an upgrade over the primary QB the team would otherwise likely use in 2020
  2. The team either has a gap at QB or it is feasible to move on from the incumbent QB to make room for Brady
  3. The team would be a legit Super Bowl contender with Brady
  4. The team has better passing game targets than NE (since ostensibly this could be a reason for him to leave NE)
  5. The team has a strong OL to protect Brady
  6. The team has the cap space to pay Brady 25M to 30M without compromising #3 to #5 above
  7. The team has strong coaching and an offensive scheme that is either already a fit for Brady or would be tailored to fit Brady
  8. The team is based somewhere that would be acceptable to Brady and his family
Edited by Just Win Baby
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24 minutes ago, humpback said:

The leading receiver in that game was Rex Burkhead, and lol at "mailed it in against MIA"- that game was huge for the Pats and Brady flat out didn't get it done.

No one is saying he's "done" as in can't play at all anymore, but his days of being anything close to elite are in the past.

Reviewing the box score of the Dolphins debacle shows . . .

- Elandon Roberts caught a TD pass. For those that are not aware . . . he's a linebacker.
- Julian Edelman, pre-multiple surgeries he's having in the off season, caught 3 of 7 passes for 26 yards.
- Ben Watson and his torn Achilles gutted out 1 catch for 4 yards.
- Philip Dorsett's one 50 yard reception gave him a game with 50 receiving yards for the first time since Week 3.
- Mohamed Sanu had 35 receiving yards in the game . . . only his second time accomplishing that many yards in 9 games with the Patriots.
- N'Keal Harry had 29 receiving yards . . . his HIGHEST output in the entire season for one game.

Brady wasn't great against MIA . . . but the lack of weapons he had by the end of the season was not a made up thing or just an excuse. As I have posted several times, with the same players to throw to, ANY NFL QB would have looked washed up. Mahomes would not have done much better.

That being said, TB12 is smack dab living in Averageville. He's not going to make a run at an MVP season ever again and the more he ages, the more he will be shopping for a house in the suburbs located in Below Averageville. Whether it's for NE or another team, the best he can offer now is game management, limited turnovers, and an occasional clutch scoring drive when needed. He's not going to be able to carry a team anymore.

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1 minute ago, Just Win Baby said:

LOL at trading a pick for Allen or Robinson. Some of the hype around what can/will be done for Brady is just silly.

Again, this is not realistic. Define "would not cost a ton". Just exactly how much cap space do you think Gronk + Robinson/Boyd/Allen + Amendola would take? Now, how much does Brady take? Now, which of NE's compelling internal free agents are you expecting they will let walk as a result of all of this? See my post about their cap situation higher up on this page.

Bottom line, NE cannot have all of Brady, the same or better quality OL, improved targets for the passing game, and the same top caliber defense. The cap just doesn't support it. So they have to pick what can be sacrificed from that list.

I don't think there are any such teams. Someone name one team that meets all of these criteria:

  1. 43 year old Brady would be an upgrade over that team's QB
  2. The team either has a gap at QB or it is feasible to move on from the incumbent QB to make room for Brady
  3. The team would be a legit Super Bowl contender with Brady
  4. The team has the cap space to pay Brady 25M to 30M without compromising #3
  5. The team has strong coaching and an offensive scheme that is either already a fit for Brady or would be tailored to fit Brady
  6. The team is based somewhere that would be acceptable to Brady and his family

NE will do what they always do. Let the guys that will get huge offers walk, and find a suitable replacement somewhere (trade, free agency, or through the draft). I expect Thuney and Van Noy to move on and NE to try to earn compensatory picks for them.

For other free agents (or veteran players), NE has also lived by getting those types of players to play for less. Devin McCourty is coming of a fair market deal, has already said he wants to stay in NE, and is already aware that he will have to take a deep discount. Ditto for Slater and some others.

Both Brady and Gronk may get the itch and come back for a discount. Crazy as it sounds, NE has been in this situation in the past and come through. Maybe their luck will run out, but they have been able to make things work up against the cap. They have gotten people to make concessions or redo contracts. Like I say every year, we won't know what NE will look like until the first day of the season.

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3 minutes ago, Just Win Baby said:

I don't think there are any such teams. Someone name one team that meets all of these criteria:

  1. 43 year old Brady would be an upgrade over that team's QB
  2. The team either has a gap at QB or it is feasible to move on from the incumbent QB to make room for Brady
  3. The team would be a legit Super Bowl contender with Brady
  4. The team has the cap space to pay Brady 25M to 30M without compromising #3
  5. The team has strong coaching and an offensive scheme that is either already a fit for Brady or would be tailored to fit Brady
  6. The team is based somewhere that would be acceptable to Brady and his family

Number 6 does not fit this team but then that's pretty hard to quantify how important that would be to him, especially if 1-5 are met.

I think the Colts meet 1-5. Opinions on if they are a legit contender and have scheme to fit or suit him can be debated, but my opinion is if his play has not fallen off these 5 criteria fit him.

I still find it hard to think he won't be returning to NE and if Colts go veteran QB route my guess is you'll have a big reason to pull for them next year.

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12 minutes ago, menobrown said:

Number 6 does not fit this team but then that's pretty hard to quantify how important that would be to him, especially if 1-5 are met.

I think the Colts meet 1-5. Opinions on if they are a legit contender and have scheme to fit or suit him can be debated, but my opinion is if his play has not fallen off these 5 criteria fit him.

I still find it hard to think he won't be returning to NE and if Colts go veteran QB route my guess is you'll have a big reason to pull for them next year.

I agree the Colts probably come closest to matching. I wonder how Brady would feel about playing for the Colts, and how the Colts would feel about signing Brady, given NE and IND had a strong rivalry for quite some time.

I edited my post a bit after you quoted, so that #1 now reads: 43 year old Brady would be an upgrade over the primary QB the team would otherwise likely use in 2020

Your last sentence kind of gets at that. For the Colts, given past rivalry with Brady and given Reich's presumably strong relationship with Rivers, would they prefer Brady over Rivers? I don't think that is a given by any means. I also think Brady will return to NE, so we'll probably never really know.

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23 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

Reviewing the box score of the Dolphins debacle shows . . .

- Elandon Roberts caught a TD pass. For those that are not aware . . . he's a linebacker.
- Julian Edelman, pre-multiple surgeries he's having in the off season, caught 3 of 7 passes for 26 yards.
- Ben Watson and his torn Achilles gutted out 1 catch for 4 yards.
- Philip Dorsett's one 50 yard reception gave him a game with 50 receiving yards for the first time since Week 3.
- Mohamed Sanu had 35 receiving yards in the game . . . only his second time accomplishing that many yards in 9 games with the Patriots.
- N'Keal Harry had 29 receiving yards . . . his HIGHEST output in the entire season for one game.

Brady wasn't great against MIA . . . but the lack of weapons he had by the end of the season was not a made up thing or just an excuse. As I have posted several times, with the same players to throw to, ANY NFL QB would have looked washed up. Mahomes would not have done much better.

That being said, TB12 is smack dab living in Averageville. He's not going to make a run at an MVP season ever again and the more he ages, the more he will be shopping for a house in the suburbs located in Below Averageville. Whether it's for NE or another team, the best he can offer now is game management, limited turnovers, and an occasional clutch scoring drive when needed. He's not going to be able to carry a team anymore.

I agree with the last paragraph, but your homerism is shining through with the "ANY NFL QB would have looked washed up" stuff. He threw an absolutely awful pick 6 in that game (which you could argue was the difference)- I highly doubt Mahomes (nor many other good starting QBs) make that mistake.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

NE will do what they always do. Let the guys that will get huge offers walk, and find a suitable replacement somewhere (trade, free agency, or through the draft). I expect Thuney and Van Noy to move on and NE to try to earn compensatory picks for them.

For other free agents (or veteran players), NE has also lived by getting those types of players to play for less. Devin McCourty is coming of a fair market deal, has already said he wants to stay in NE, and is already aware that he will have to take a deep discount. Ditto for Slater and some others.

Both Brady and Gronk may get the itch and come back for a discount. Crazy as it sounds, NE has been in this situation in the past and come through. Maybe their luck will run out, but they have been able to make things work up against the cap. They have gotten people to make concessions or redo contracts. Like I say every year, we won't know what NE will look like until the first day of the season.

I know I may be wrong, but this time truly does feel different. The reason NE has gotten so many players to come at a discount is because it's given players the best chance at a title. That is no longer the case, it's a near certainty that they will be behind at least KC and Baltimore in the AFC alone next year almost regardless of what moves they (realistically) make.

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19 minutes ago, humpback said:

I agree with the last paragraph, but your homerism is shining through with the "ANY NFL QB would have looked washed up" stuff. He threw an absolutely awful pick 6 in that game (which you could argue was the difference)- I highly doubt Mahomes (nor many other good starting QBs) make that mistake.

 

 

My point was, no one was going to come into NE this year and make a run at 5,000 passing yards or 40 TD. Sure, there were individual plays that a different QB may have done better than Brady, but overall the receiving options weren't that great. So any other QB would have had depressed numbers and people would have said what's wrong with him . . . he dropped way off.

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

My point was, no one was going to come into NE this year and make a run at 5,000 passing yards or 40 TD. Sure, there were individual plays that a different QB may have done better than Brady, but overall the receiving options weren't that great. So any other QB would have had depressed numbers and people would have said what's wrong with him . . . he dropped way off.

I think Brady is one of the best ever at getting the ball out quickly and accurately.  But he requires a good/great o-line, good/great route running receivers, and smart play-calling.  I am not sure where he could go to find these things.

He doesn't create like some of the other QB's do (Mahomes, Wilson, etc.), so he is exposed when he has an average/poor O-line.  

I am not sure where he could go to find these things.

I think the QB position in the NFL is changing, and teams will start to expect more from their QB's regarding scrambling, keeping plays alive, and running.

I still think Brady can play, but I wouldn't consider him elite anymore.  I put him in the 10-20 range of QB's.

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6 hours ago, Mister CIA said:

I wish that really was Brady just to see all the homers rush in to defend how Brady’s tough upbringing led to him being a tweeker and how every team probably also has a meth head on their roster so it’s no big deal.

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I wish there were fewer people in this world who seem to take so much pleasure in antagonizing and causing others pain. 

To each his own I guess........ 

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6 minutes ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

I wish there were fewer people in this world who seem to take so much pleasure in antagonizing and causing others pain. 

To each his own I guess........ 

How is that?  Who and how are they causing you pain?  The end of anything good is inevitable. They don't last forever.  The pain and grind of life far outweighs the pleasures for most people.  If people are antagonizing you over Brady and it's causing you pain, then you need to not take it so seriously,  Brady's time in the NFL is coming to an end very soon and it happens to all players.  I hated it when Peyton Manning left the Colts but got over it fairly quickly. 

Edited by JohnnyU

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1 hour ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

I wish there were fewer people in this world who seem to take so much pleasure in antagonizing and causing others pain. 

To each his own I guess........ 

Over dramatic much? It was a joke based on how Pat fans feel so persecuted and engage in mental gymnastics to defend all their favorite team's transgressions.

If it really offended you, I am sorry - but I should be even more offended by your mis-characterization of me I suppose (but I'll just chuckle instead).

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18 minutes ago, Dr. Octopus said:

Over dramatic much? It was a joke based on how Pat fans feel so persecuted and engage in mental gymnastics to defend all their favorite team's transgressions.

If it really offended you, I am sorry - but I should be even more offended by your mis-characterization of me I suppose (but I'll just chuckle instead).

Didn't offend me in the slightest Dr. O, you know well enough by now (though I am no better or worse than most) I occasionally come charging in on my high horse. If it hit home for you I'm glad, that was the intent. I have read enough of your posts over the years to know you are really good and very insightful when you want to be but this wasn't one of those times. No big D. its all good and I still love u:)

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