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ZWK

ZWK's Dynasty Rankings (TE, WR, RB updated Jan-Feb 2020)

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On 1/19/2020 at 4:10 AM, -OZ- said:
On 1/5/2020 at 4:27 PM, ZWK said:

6    24    Jonnu Smith    TEN    25.0    (42)

I get that it's partly hometown bias, but Jonnu looks really low. I'd have him up there with the Alabama TEs Irv and Howard (although OJ was a huge disappointment).  What don't you like?  You did move him up, so maybe he's gaining traction?

Jonnu Smith just hasn't been producing very much. He has been in the NFL for 3 years, and has 0 VBD to show for it (even by my formula had 21 TEs with positive VBD this year because it uses ppg and a fuzzy baseline).

Playing behind Delanie Walker could hurt his numbers, but Walker was out for almost all of 2018 and the majority of 2019.

In 2017 & 2018 it wasn't just about lack of volume - Smith's efficiency numbers and PFF grade were also mediocre to bad. In 2019 he finally had pretty good efficiency numbers (YPT, DVOA, PFF grade), but he's still well behind the pace of what good TEs usually show in their first 3 seasons.

The best fantasy TEs since 1997 who had 0 VBD through 3 seasons are Delanie Walker, Martellus Bennett, Chad Lewis, Jermaine Wiggins, Darren Waller, and Gary Barnidge. Pretty rare, especially when you aren't stuck behind a Pro Bowler. And most great fantasy TEs were already putting up big numbers within their first 3 seasons, although it's not uncommon for them to just be low-end fantasy starters at that point (e.g., Kelce, Ertz, Clark, Olsen, V Davis).

My formulaic TE projections have Jonnu unranked, because by year 3 they're looking for fantasy production (whereas through 2 seasons they're also looking for signs of promise like draft pick and good receiving efficiency). My subjective rankings have him at 24 (and up to 23 since I posted), giving him credit for those efficiency numbers and for being a TE2 with some opportunity & some hype (and borderline startable once Walker went out).

I can rerun my TE projections formula with some generous adjustments to give him credit for those things. I just did that, where:

* I credited him with 4.5 VBD for this year rather than 0, which is what he'd get based on the 8.1 ppg over 13 games that he produced weeks 7-20 without Delanie Walker
* I pretended that 2019 was just his 2nd season rather than his 3rd so that my formula would give him credit for his efficiency numbers as well (in other words, I treated him as pick 100 of the 2018 draft instead of the 2017 draft)

With those adjustments, my formula projected him for 62 career VBD, which put him at TE20 between Will Dissly and Foster Moreau.

That's pretty close to where I had him in my subjective rankings.

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1 hour ago, ZWK said:

Jonnu Smith just hasn't been producing very much. He has been in the NFL for 3 years, and has 0 VBD to show for it (even by my formula had 21 TEs with positive VBD this year because it uses ppg and a fuzzy baseline).

Playing behind Delanie Walker could hurt his numbers, but Walker was out for almost all of 2018 and the majority of 2019.

In 2017 & 2018 it wasn't just about lack of volume - Smith's efficiency numbers and PFF grade were also mediocre to bad. In 2019 he finally had pretty good efficiency numbers (YPT, DVOA, PFF grade), but he's still well behind the pace of what good TEs usually show in their first 3 seasons.

The best fantasy TEs since 1997 who had 0 VBD through 3 seasons are Delanie Walker, Martellus Bennett, Chad Lewis, Jermaine Wiggins, Darren Waller, and Gary Barnidge. Pretty rare, especially when you aren't stuck behind a Pro Bowler. And most great fantasy TEs were already putting up big numbers within their first 3 seasons, although it's not uncommon for them to just be low-end fantasy starters at that point (e.g., Kelce, Ertz, Clark, Olsen, V Davis).

My formulaic TE projections have Jonnu unranked, because by year 3 they're looking for fantasy production (whereas through 2 seasons they're also looking for signs of promise like draft pick and good receiving efficiency). My subjective rankings have him at 24 (and up to 23 since I posted), giving him credit for those efficiency numbers and for being a TE2 with some opportunity & some hype (and borderline startable once Walker went out).

I can rerun my TE projections formula with some generous adjustments to give him credit for those things. I just did that, where:

* I credited him with 4.5 VBD for this year rather than 0, which is what he'd get based on the 8.1 ppg over 13 games that he produced weeks 7-20 without Delanie Walker
* I pretended that 2019 was just his 2nd season rather than his 3rd so that my formula would give him credit for his efficiency numbers as well (in other words, I treated him as pick 100 of the 2018 draft instead of the 2017 draft)

With those adjustments, my formula projected him for 62 career VBD, which put him at TE20 between Will Dissly and Foster Moreau.

That's pretty close to where I had him in my subjective rankings.

Thanks. 

I do like your methodology. Just happen to disagree with the result here - but I'll readily admit my bias.

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Offseason RB rankings. PPR, start 2 RB, about 300 position players rostered. Age as of 9/1/20. Prev from 5/2/19.

Tr    Rk    Player    Team    Age    Prev
1    1    Christian McCaffrey    CAR    24.2    (2)
1    2    Saquon Barkley    NYG    23.6    (1)
2    3    Alvin Kamara    NO    25.1    (3)
2    4    Ezekiel Elliott    DAL    25.1    (4)
3    5    Nick Chubb    CLE    24.7    (9)
3    6    Dalvin Cook    MIN    25.1    (11)
3    7    Joe Mixon    CIN    24.1    (7)
4    8    Josh Jacobs    LV    22.6    (15)
4    9    Derrick Henry    FA (TEN)    26.1    (17)
4    10    Aaron Jones    GB    25.7    (18)
5    11    Austin Ekeler    LAC    25.3    (40)
5    12    Chris Carson    SEA    26.0    (21)
5    13    Leonard Fournette    JAX    25.6    (12)
5    14    Miles Sanders    PHI    23.3    (24)
5    15    Melvin Gordon    FA (LAC)    27.4    (5)
5    16    Todd Gurley    RAM    26.1    (6)
5    17    LeVeon Bell    NYJ    28.5    (8)
5    18    Kareem Hunt    CLE    25.1    (16)
6    19    Kenyan Drake    FA (ARI)    26.6    (37)
6    20    Kerryon Johnson    DET    23.2    (13)
6    21    James Conner    PIT    25.3    (14)
6    22    Devin Singletary    BUF    23.0    (49)
6    23    Marlon Mack    IND    24.5    (22)
6    24    Phillip Lindsay    DEN    26.1    (27)
6    25    David Montgomery    CHI    23.2    (25)
7    26    Derrius Guice    WAS    23.2    (23)
7    27    Raheem Mostert    SF    28.4    (98)
7    28    Ronald Jones II    TB    23.1    (39)
7    29    Mark Ingram    BAL    30.7    (33)
7    30    David Johnson    ARI    28.7    (10)
7    31    Darrell Henderson    LAR    23.0    (28)
7    32    Tarik Cohen    CHI    25.1    (30)
7    33    Damien Williams    KC    28.4    (19)
7    34    James White    NE    28.6    (31)
7    35    Rashaad Penny    SEA    24.6    (26)
7    36    Devonta Freeman    ATL    28.5    (29)
7    37    Sony Michel    NE    25.5    (20)
8    38    Damien Harris    NE    23.6    (32)
8    39    Tony Pollard    DAL    23.3    (79)
8    40    Tevin Coleman    SF    27.4    (36)
8    41    Duke Johnson    HOU    26.9    (47)
8    42    Matt Breida    SF    25.5    (41)
8    43    Lamar Miller    FA (HOU)    29.4    (34)
8    44    Royce Freeman    DEN    24.5    (42)
8    45    Jamaal Williams    GB    25.4    (64)
8    46    Alexander Mattison    MIN    22.2    (50)
8    47    Nyheim Hines    IND    23.8    (38)
8    48    Boston Scott    PHI    25.3    (114)
8    49    Bryce Love    WAS    23.2    (44)
8    50    Justice Hill    BAL    22.8    (43)
8    51    Latavius Murray    NO    29.5    (46)
8    52    Benny Snell    PIT    22.5    (65)
8    53    Jordan Howard    FA (PHI)    25.8    (52)
8    54    DeAndre Washington    FA (LV)    27.5    (104)
8    55    Carlos Hyde    FA (HOU)    29.9    (58)
9    56    Jaylen Samuels    PIT    24.1    (60)
9    57    Jerick McKinnon    SF    28.3    (35)
9    58    Chase Edmonds    ARI    24.4    (85)
9    59    Adrian Peterson    WAS    35.4    (77)
9    60    Darwin Thompson    KAN    23.6    (72)
9    61    Chris Thompson    WAS    29.9    (57)
9    62    Jalen Richard    LV    26.9    (48)
9    63    Gus Edwards    BAL    25.4    (63)
9    64    Malcolm Brown    RAM    27.3    (61)
9    65    Ryquell Armstead    JAX    23.8    (66)
9    66    Ito Smith    ATL    25.0    (69)
9    67    Justin Jackson    LAC    25.4    (106)
10    68    Rodney Anderson    CIN    24.0    (111)
10    69    Mike Boone    MIN    25.2    unr
10    70    Jonathan Williams    IND    26.6    (125)
10    71    Rex Burkhead    NE    30.2    (90)
10    72    Reggie Bonnafon    CAR    24.7    unr
10    73    Wayne Gallman    NYG    25.9    (127)
10    74    Peyton Barber    TB    26.5    (45)
10    75    Marshawn Lynch        34.4    (136)
10    76    Bo Scarbrough    DET    23.9    unr
10    77    Darrel Williams    KC    25.4    (76)
10    78    J.D. McKissic    DET    27.0    (122)
10    79    Qadree Ollison    ATL    23.8    (74)
10    80    Jeffery Wilson    SF    24.8    unr
10    81    Jordan Wilkins    IND    26.1    (88)
10    82    Isaiah Crowell    FA (LV)    27.6    (82)
10    83    Mike Davis        27.5    (75)
10    84    Dion Lewis    TEN    29.9    (55)
10    85    Trayveon Williams    CIN    22.9    (109)
10    86    Dare Ogunbowale    TB    26.3    unr
10    87    Giovani Bernard    CIN    28.8    (56)
10    88    Ty Montgomery    NYJ    27.6    (94)
11    89    Corey Clement    PHI    25.8    (83)
11    90    Patrick Laird    MIA    25.0    unr
11    91    LeSean McCoy    KC    32.1    (53)
11    92    Jay Ajayi        27.2    (54)
11    93    Theo Riddick        29.3    (68)
11    94    Frank Gore    FA (BUF)    37.3    (81)
11    95    Travis Homer    SEA    22.1    (134)
11    96    Dontrell Hilliard    CLE    25.5    unr
11    97    Ty Johnson    DET    23.0    (93)
11    98    C.J. Anderson        29.6    (51)
11    99    C.J. Prosise        26.3    (120)
11    100    T.J. Yeldon        26.9    (62)
11    101    Myles Gaskin    MIA    23.5    (108)
11    102    Brian Hill    ATL    24.8    (139)
11    103    Josh Adams    PHI    23.8    (95)
11    104    Wendell Smallwood    PHI    26.6    (80)
11    105    Kalen Ballage    MIA    24.7    (70)
11    106    Dexter Williams    GB    23.7    (110)
11    107    Kerrith Whyte    PIT    23.8    (99)
11    108    Kenneth Dixon        26.6    (67)
11    109    Jordan Scarlett    CAR    24.6    (112)

It feels like I could keep tinkering with these forever, but I'll get something posted now. I keep feeling dissatisfied with my rankings within tiers 5 (RB11-18) and 7 (RB26-37), no matter how I reshuffle them. It might just mean that those guys are bunched pretty close together.

There aren't huge differences between my rankings and others that I've seen. I'm somewhat higher on Chris Carson, Raheem Mostert, Lamar Miller, and Damien Harris. And I'm lower on David Montgomery, Sony Michel, Miles Sanders, Alexander Mattison, Ito Smith, and Justice Hill.

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On 1/21/2020 at 5:58 PM, -OZ- said:

Thanks. 

I do like your methodology. Just happen to disagree with the result here - but I'll readily admit my bias.

I love Jonnu Smith and I am hoping he ends up being more productive for fantasy in years ahead, but the fact remains that he hasn't delivered yet.

For the guys ZWK compares him to as far as being productive after their 1st 3 seasons in the league, Walker seems the closest comparison as he had Vernon Davis ahead of him for his first few seasons and didn't get enough opportunity until he changed teams. 

I could see Jonnu being a 4th year break out I guess. No reason to project him higher than he has been though really.

The main thing I have always liked about Jonnu is his versatility. His blocking ability may be working against him in some ways compared to a TE whos only plus ability is as a receiver.

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Regarding Jonnu.

I own him in an FFPC league, so TE premium, and can't even get a third round rookie pick for him. I even resorted to taking to league message board asking for a third this year or next and still nothing.

He's probably a better NFL player then fantasy player because he can block well. Most TE's who actually get a shot to play, who are not buried behind someone, take significant steps in year two or they usually don't. He's had more then his fair share of chances. As ZWK pointed out Delanie missed all but one game of 2018 and this year played in just 7 games averaging 28 snaps and 4.4 targets a game. So Delanie has barely been an obstacle for the past two seasons.  Over the past two seasons Jonnu has averaged 47.4 snaps a game but is getting a paltry 2.7 targets a game. In order for him to be remotely trustworthy or useful in fantasy this target per game number needs to almost double and I see no reason for that kind of optimism and even if did double he's probably a weak TE1 at best.

Counting playoffs over the last two seasons he's had basically a season and half of games were Delanie did not take a snap. 24 games.  75 targets, 54 catches, 602 yards and 7 TD's.  Again that might be low end TE1 stats for a whole season, that's 1.5 seasons.  You can try and blame it on Mariotta but he's got 12 full games with no Delanie and Tannehill as his QB.  47/35/356/4 in those 12 games and what's worse is he goose egged 1/4th of those games despite getting 50+ snaps. Out of everything I could say negative about the guy in fantasy this is the one thing that bothers me the most.

All in all just seems like a guy who if things go right, might hit around the high 40/low 50 catch mark. Replacement level, low value player to me who it looks like I'll be flat cutting in a TE premium league.

Now if you like him  and want to think positive maybe he's just a slow learner and will continue to improve. Just not seeing it myself,  looks like a solid NFL starting TE to me, a backup fantasy TE with a floor so low he goose egged 25% of his games with his current QB.

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1 hour ago, menobrown said:

Regarding Jonnu.

I own him in an FFPC league, so TE premium, and can't even get a third round rookie pick for him. I even resorted to taking to league message board asking for a third this year or next and still nothing.

He's probably a better NFL player then fantasy player because he can block well. Most TE's who actually get a shot to play, who are not buried behind someone, take significant steps in year two or they usually don't. He's had more then his fair share of chances. As ZWK pointed out Delanie missed all but one game of 2018 and this year played in just 7 games averaging 28 snaps and 4.4 targets a game. So Delanie has barely been an obstacle for the past two seasons.  Over the past two seasons Jonnu has averaged 47.4 snaps a game but is getting a paltry 2.7 targets a game. In order for him to be remotely trustworthy or useful in fantasy this target per game number needs to almost double and I see no reason for that kind of optimism and even if did double he's probably a weak TE1 at best.

Counting playoffs over the last two seasons he's had basically a season and half of games were Delanie did not take a snap. 24 games.  75 targets, 54 catches, 602 yards and 7 TD's.  Again that might be low end TE1 stats for a whole season, that's 1.5 seasons.  You can try and blame it on Mariotta but he's got 12 full games with no Delanie and Tannehill as his QB.  47/35/356/4 in those 12 games and what's worse is he goose egged 1/4th of those games despite getting 50+ snaps. Out of everything I could say negative about the guy in fantasy this is the one thing that bothers me the most.

All in all just seems like a guy who if things go right, might hit around the high 40/low 50 catch mark. Replacement level, low value player to me who it looks like I'll be flat cutting in a TE premium league.

Now if you like him  and want to think positive maybe he's just a slow learner and will continue to improve. Just not seeing it myself,  looks like a solid NFL starting TE to me, a backup fantasy TE with a floor so low he goose egged 25% of his games with his current QB.

I'll agree that he's probably better for the Titans than your FF team. 

Fwiw, in my ongoing dynasty auction he went for just a little less than Ian Thomas and Mostert; a bit more than the 2.02 (16 teams) (not by me)

Edited by -OZ-

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16 minutes ago, -OZ- said:

I'll agree that he's probably better for the Titans than your FF team. 

Fwiw, in my ongoing dynasty auction he went for just a little less than Ian Thomas and Mostert; a bit more than the 2.02 (16 teams) (not by me)

He does have people who like him so can't say I'm surprised. Want to say the one redraft I've done this year, FFPC Best Ball, he went in like round 8 or 9. I had another league, again FFPC, where someone traded Devante Parker for Jonnu and 3.1.  I'm honestly surprised I can't get a third for him but on the other hand I can't say I blame people, as  I described.

But funny to me that the league I referenced I got to cut him if I can't get a decent trade offer I am carrying Ian Thomas and once Olsen left I never gave not keeping Thomas any consideration.

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55 minutes ago, menobrown said:

He does have people who like him so can't say I'm surprised. Want to say the one redraft I've done this year, FFPC Best Ball, he went in like round 8 or 9. I had another league, again FFPC, where someone traded Devante Parker for Jonnu and 3.1.  I'm honestly surprised I can't get a third for him but on the other hand I can't say I blame people, as  I described.

But funny to me that the league I referenced I got to cut him if I can't get a decent trade offer I am carrying Ian Thomas and once Olsen left I never gave not keeping Thomas any consideration.

In my experience it is just plain hard to sell a TE.

The dynamics of cutting to 16 players completely squeezes out guys who have unrealized potential.

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5 hours ago, ZWK said:

Offseason RB rankings. PPR, start 2 RB, about 300 position players rostered. Age as of 9/1/20. Prev from 5/2/19.

Tr    Rk    Player    Team    Age    Prev
1    1    Christian McCaffrey    CAR    24.2    (2)
1    2    Saquon Barkley    NYG    23.6    (1)
2    3    Alvin Kamara    NO    25.1    (3)
2    4    Ezekiel Elliott    DAL    25.1    (4)
3    5    Nick Chubb    CLE    24.7    (9)
3    6    Dalvin Cook    MIN    25.1    (11)
3    7    Joe Mixon    CIN    24.1    (7)
4    8    Josh Jacobs    LV    22.6    (15)
4    9    Derrick Henry    FA (TEN)    26.1    (17)
4    10    Aaron Jones    GB    25.7    (18)
5    11    Austin Ekeler    LAC    25.3    (40)
5    12    Chris Carson    SEA    26.0    (21)

I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me.  I am a redraft guy.  Does your formula allow you to rank for current year only?

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14 minutes ago, TheWinz said:

I haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me.  I am a redraft guy.  Does your formula allow you to rank for current year only?

These are my opinions rather than a formula.

You can get early 2020 redraft rankings from Fantasy Pros here or here.

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1 minute ago, ZWK said:

These are my opinions rather than a formula.

You can get early 2020 redraft rankings from Fantasy Pros here or here.

Yes, i have visited and already done some mocks.  I was simply wondering if you based your rankings on a formula of some sort, and if that formula could be broken down to a year by year rank?

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34 minutes ago, voiceofunreason said:

Ekeler has to drop a lot with Rivers leaving. His receiving numbers could take a nose dive. 

A lot is in play to determine Ekeler's value.  Who will QB the Bolts?  Will Gordon stay?  What about Hunter Henry?

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Last year Ekeler was RB5 in fantasy production, so I already have him discounted pretty far below that. He's ranked about where he would be if you expected his future production to be about halfway in between his 2018 and his 2019.

And his success wasn't just about getting peppered with targets - he has been a really good receiving back, for his whole NFL career. That comes through in all his stats (YPT, receiving DVOA, PFF grade).

There is a lot of uncertainty for him. Who plays QB this year, whether Gordon comes back (or gets replaced by someone who will get a big workload), whether the Chargers find a 3rd WR. And the following year he hits free agency, and then maybe Andy Reid brings him to KC to be the next Westbrook/McCoy or maybe he goes to a team that doesn't know what to do with him. So there's uncertainty both upwards and downwards.

And there's also plenty of uncertainty for other guys in his tier. Does Chris Carson remain the workhorse? Is he the kind of back that can keep it up for a long career or more of a Rudi Johnson type? Does Fournette keep getting heavy usage in the passing game? Is he mainly coasting on draft capital and due for a reality check once his rookie contract runs out? Were the flashes of talent that Miles Sanders showed signs of what's to come, or is his lousy PFF grade and mediocre rushing DVOA more representative of who he is? Is Philly going to keep using a committee backfield?

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7 hours ago, TheWinz said:
8 hours ago, voiceofunreason said:

Ekeler has to drop a lot with Rivers leaving. His receiving numbers could take a nose dive. 

A lot is in play to determine Ekeler's value.  Who will QB the Bolts?  Will Gordon stay?  What about Hunter Henry?

And Ekeler himself is a RFA. I assume the Chargers will retain him for 2020, but it is theoretically possible he could be elsewhere. For example, suppose they offer him a second round tender; could another team be willing to pony up and sign him to a contract the Chargers will not match? Or will the Chargers put a first round tender on him and pay him $4.7M this year?

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Why are you lower on Miles Sanders?  He's basically proved a floor as a rookie as a pass catcher.  I find that an easier projection going forward than Josh Jacobs proving his floor as a rusher, yet pass catches get more points.  Just for comparison's sake between yours and my rankings, we basically have Josh Jacobs and Miles Sanders flipped around.  Miles Sanders went 13.79 PPG while Jacobs went 12.10 PPG.  

I'd also move Mack up by about 10 spots.  Seems awfully low for a 25 year old where the chatter is to bring a vet QB in.  Rivers would be an awesome fit for him, but that's pure speculation.  

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33 minutes ago, Zyphros said:

I'd also move Mack up by about 10 spots.  Seems awfully low for a 25 year old where the chatter is to bring a vet QB in.  Rivers would be an awesome fit for him, but that's pure speculation. 

Agree here for sure.  And he's actually still 23, doesn't turn 24 for a couple weeks.  Imagine if Rivers goes there?  He loves throwing to his running backs more than anybody.  I could see Mack getting up to that 40+ reception mark.

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5 hours ago, Zyphros said:

Why are you lower on Miles Sanders?  He's basically proved a floor as a rookie as a pass catcher.  I find that an easier projection going forward than Josh Jacobs proving his floor as a rusher, yet pass catches get more points.  Just for comparison's sake between yours and my rankings, we basically have Josh Jacobs and Miles Sanders flipped around.  Miles Sanders went 13.79 PPG while Jacobs went 12.10 PPG.  

I'd also move Mack up by about 10 spots.  Seems awfully low for a 25 year old where the chatter is to bring a vet QB in.  Rivers would be an awesome fit for him, but that's pure speculation.  

Interesting to see these criticisms paired.

Mack is as low as he is because he's an awful receiver. He had 14 receptions this year, 1 per game. His career high season through 3 years is 21 receptions, 1.5 per game. He has awful YPT, receiving DVOA, PFF receiving grade. He was a low-end fantasy RB2 this year despite his strong rushing numbers because of his lack of receiving production. He has 75 career VBD so far (by my calculation), basically the same as fellow 2017 4th round pick Tarik Cohen.

With Jacobs, the Raiders brought him in to be the man, drafted him in the first round, gave him a big workload, and he did really well with it. PFF had him as one of the top RBs in the league. It seems like we have a lot of evidence that he's a good RB and that he'll get at least a pretty big role. You're right to point to receiving as the biggest concern, but there's still a fair amount of uncertainty there. He did ok with the targets he got.

With Sanders there's a lot more uncertainty about how good he is on the whole and how big a role he'll have going forward. Drafted a round later, played behind Jordan Howard for much of the year, had unimpressive rushing stats according to DVOA and PFF grade. His receiving is his biggest strength so far and it's why I have him as high as I do (rather than down near Singletary & Montgomery). But one season of good receiving production is not enough to establish a proven floor, he'll have to be good enough to stay on the field and get those targets, and other guys like Boston Scott could eat into his targets.

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37 minutes ago, ZWK said:

Interesting to see these criticisms paired.

Mack is as low as he is because he's an awful receiver. He had 14 receptions this year, 1 per game. His career high season through 3 years is 21 receptions, 1.5 per game. He has awful YPT, receiving DVOA, PFF receiving grade. He was a low-end fantasy RB2 this year despite his strong rushing numbers because of his lack of receiving production. He has 75 career VBD so far (by my calculation), basically the same as fellow 2017 4th round pick Tarik Cohen.

With Jacobs, the Raiders brought him in to be the man, drafted him in the first round, gave him a big workload, and he did really well with it. PFF had him as one of the top RBs in the league. It seems like we have a lot of evidence that he's a good RB and that he'll get at least a pretty big role. You're right to point to receiving as the biggest concern, but there's still a fair amount of uncertainty there. He did ok with the targets he got.

With Sanders there's a lot more uncertainty about how good he is on the whole and how big a role he'll have going forward. Drafted a round later, played behind Jordan Howard for much of the year, had unimpressive rushing stats according to DVOA and PFF grade. His receiving is his biggest strength so far and it's why I have him as high as I do (rather than down near Singletary & Montgomery). But one season of good receiving production is not enough to establish a proven floor, he'll have to be good enough to stay on the field and get those targets, and other guys like Boston Scott could eat into his targets.

Any insight as to whether this improved for Sanders from the beginning to the end of the season? He sure looked good later on. Not sure if the data support that or not.

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1 hour ago, barackdhouse said:

Any insight as to whether this improved for Sanders from the beginning to the end of the season? He sure looked good later on. Not sure if the data support that or not.

I checked Sanders' PFF grades game by game. He was definitely better after the first 7 games, but his rushing grades still weren't good.

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11 hours ago, Zyphros said:

I'd also move Mack up by about 10 spots.  Seems awfully low for a 25 year old where the chatter is to bring a vet QB in.  Rivers would be an awesome fit for him, but that's pure speculation.  

Mack's age isn't that relevant because it's likely that his ability is what will end his fantasy usefulness, not his age.

On top of that these guys that don't catch are such great sells any time you can sell them.  The fantasy community turns on them SO fast.

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Mack was such a good pass catcher in college, I doubt it's because he's not good there and more a play calling/situation type of deal that has limited that ability.  That's just a guess though, but it would be interesting to dive into that and see.  Hines is behind him who is a special pass catcher doesn't exactly help either.  

Guess I'm still hopeful he finds a workhose role instead of just a rusher.  I think his age contributes to that being possible.  FA 2021.  

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I'm surprised that Mack is the guy on that tier that I'm getting pushback on. Conner was a RB1 in 2018 and again through the first half of 2019 before getting injured, missing some games, and struggling in the few games that he played. Kenyan Drake won some championships, going on a tear after he joined Arizona. He may or may not be back in Arizona but at least he won't be back in Miami. David Montgomery was an early first round rookie pick just a year ago and quickly won the lead RB role; he didn't have that great a rookie year but the Bears' offense left something to be desired. Singletary was drafted the pick after Montgomery in the NFL draft, was initially not highly regarded by the fantasy community, but had the second best rookie season by any RB last year and earned a big workload by the end of the season.

All of those guys have more upside than Mack, I think (though some also have more risk or age).

I looked back at some numbers & scouting reports on Mack coming into the league and they weren't exactly glowing about his receiving (although they also didn't suggest that he'd be as awful as he has been). He has now spent as long in Indianapolis as he did in South Florida, so I wouldn't put much weight on his college stuff. And his receiving with the Colts hasn't even risen to the level of his teammates Frank Gore, Jordan Wilkins, and Jonathan Williams (even setting aside Nyheim Hines), so I don't have much optimism for his receiving (beyond a little regression towards the mean).

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I don't even like Mack but I'd likely put him at the end of Tier 5 ahead of everyone you have in Teir 6.

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1 hour ago, tangfoot said:

I don't even like Mack but I'd likely put him at the end of Tier 5 ahead of everyone you have in Teir 6.

Mack strikes me as a guy who wont be around in a couple of years or in the worse half of a RBBC. Could be wrong but not someone I'd own.

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12 hours ago, voiceofunreason said:

Mack strikes me as a guy who wont be around in a couple of years or in the worse half of a RBBC. 

True for most RB.

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Initial reactions on some FA/trade moves.

Moving down

WR3-->WR6 DeAndre Hopkins ARI - everyone's assuming that it's just a BOB blunder, but being traded for a 2nd rounder ought to raise at least a bit of concern about the player

Moving up

RB19-->RB16 Kenyan Drake ARI? - Arizona is a great place to be for him, and his odds of staying put have gone up
TE19-->TE11 Hayden Hurst ATL - I was higher than most on him based on potential talent, and now he gets an ideal opportunity

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21 hours ago, ZWK said:

Initial reactions on some FA/trade moves.

Moving down

WR3-->WR6 DeAndre Hopkins ARI - everyone's assuming that it's just a BOB blunder, but being traded for a 2nd rounder ought to raise at least a bit of concern about the player

Moving up

RB19-->RB16 Kenyan Drake ARI? - Arizona is a great place to be for him, and his odds of staying put have gone up
TE19-->TE11 Hayden Hurst ATL - I was higher than most on him based on potential talent, and now he gets an ideal opportunity

I agree with everything, except the reasoning behind the Hopkins downgrade. We’ve seen Hopkins for a while now, and most experts don’t see many weaknesses in his game. He’s a pure stud of a WR.

I could see downgrading him because of the unknown in AZ, but I don’t agree the trade may mean there’s a problem with him as a WR.

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21 hours ago, ZWK said:

WR3-->WR6 DeAndre Hopkins ARI - everyone's assuming that it's just a BOB blunder

I’ve seen the decisions BOB has made the last few years on and off the field.  I’ll stick with it being a blunder. 

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Well, I guess the good news here is that it shouldn't be too hard to trade Hopkins for those who agree with my take.

I'm pretty confident of this one. Generally it's a bad sign about a player when he gets traded away, less so if there's a really clear reason that's not about his talent (like with Buckner & Hurst), more so if he gets traded for less than he seems to be worth.

Another way to look at this: my best guess about what Hopkins could've fetched in a trade, if the Texans had carefully shopped him around and taken the best draft pick haul, is lower now than it was a week ago. And what he could've fetched in a trade reflects what NFL teams think of him, and they know things that we don't.

And that should weigh down his value, at least a little. Enough for me to prefer Moore, Adams, and Hill.

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21 minutes ago, ZWK said:

Well, I guess the good news here is that it shouldn't be too hard to trade Hopkins for those who agree with my take.

I'm pretty confident of this one. Generally it's a bad sign about a player when he gets traded away, less so if there's a really clear reason that's not about his talent (like with Buckner & Hurst), more so if he gets traded for less than he seems to be worth.

Another way to look at this: my best guess about what Hopkins could've fetched in a trade, if the Texans had carefully shopped him around and taken the best draft pick haul, is lower now than it was a week ago. And what he could've fetched in a trade reflects what NFL teams think of him, and they know things that we don't.

And that should weigh down his value, at least a little. Enough for me to prefer Moore, Adams, and Hill.

BOB has gotten bent over on every trade, so I’m not at all down on Hopkins for only netting a second (or less). Do we really think Diggs is worth triple that of Hopkins?

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