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I am sooo sick of the big hype and expectations over Kelce. He basically sucks!

That's the thing ... I don't think he does suck. But the Chiefs don't use him enough, which is very odd considering the dearth of talent at wideout on that team.

Now that Jordan Reed has a capable QB (did I really just say that about Colt McCoy?), Kelce will be headed to my bench for the fantasy playoffs, though. He's too much of a wild card.

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I am sooo sick of the big hype and expectations over Kelce. He basically sucks!

That's the thing ... I don't think he does suck. But the Chiefs don't use him enough, which is very odd considering the dearth of talent at wideout on that team.

Now that Jordan Reed has a capable QB (did I really just say that about Colt McCoy?), Kelce will be headed to my bench for the fantasy playoffs, though. He's too much of a wild card.

Kelce definitely doesn't suck.

Reid's usage of him does suck.

A lot.

Okay, he's got talent and he is being underutilized. He still sucks for fantasy! He sucks! Like Brady quoted yesterday, "I just wish we won this one," said the Patriots quarterback. "I think we put a lot into this one. This was a great test for us. I think the guys knew how important it was for our season, and you hate to have the ball on the 20-yard line under three minutes with a chance to go ahead -- and not do it. I think that sucked."

Kelce has been a huge disappointment. I thought this one game against DENVER would be his coming out party!

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Kelce has tons of talent, it's Reid that sucks. He doesn't utilize Kelce or Charles. If your QB doesn't throw the ball downfield at all shouldn't the RB and TE be his best friends?

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Kelce was typically going in the 20-25 range among TEs in drafts this year. He's TE11 right now in PPR. When you look at the production compared to ADP I don't think Kelce has been a disappointment at all. He's significantly outperformed his draft spot (at least in PPR; I can't speak to standard).

The problem is he should be featured more due to the level of talent he's shown since Week 1. That's on Reid, not Kelce.

Kelce has caught 77% of his targets, including 76% on third downs (converting 12 of 13 catches into first downs) and 75% in the Red Zone (scoring on 50% of his catches there). All of this data strongly tells everyone that Kelce has been very productive when given an opportunity and his role should be much larger, especially when you consider how dismal the Chiefs' passing game is. The problem is Andy Reid who just refuses to use the guy more.

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We are all aware that this is Kelce's first actual season of playing NFL football, right?

Duh!!! That is why he should be putting up 1k and 10.

Seriously though, is Andy Reid's ego that big where he thinks he can win a Super Bowl in today's NFL without one receiver catching a touchdown pass? I say ego because I refuse to believe that anyone is that dumb.

Maybe it isn't Reid, maybe Smith is scared to throw the ball down field and Reid understands it and just doesn't call anything downfield.

A new qb could be the answer, the Chiefs aren't loaded at skill position talent but they aren't bad either. You have a top 5 talent like Charles, I would say talent wise Bowe is a top 30 receiver, and talent wise Kelce is around the top 5 for tight ends. Either way one or both have to go, the Chiefs will continue to waste early picks on skill guys only to realize it was their coach and/or quarterback holding them back the whole time.

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Remember that other Andy Reid? The one who coached for the Eagles and year after year fielded the most pass-happy, run-averse teams known to the universe? What ever happened to him?

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Remember that other Andy Reid? The one who coached for the Eagles and year after year fielded the most pass-happy, run-averse teams known to the universe? What ever happened to him?

Answer = Alex Smith.

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Remember that other Andy Reid? The one who coached for the Eagles and year after year fielded the most pass-happy, run-averse teams known to the universe? What ever happened to him?

Answer = Alex Smith.

I have a feeling that Reid would have already replaced Alex Smith if KC would allow it. I could be wrong.

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I am sooo sick of the big hype and expectations over Kelce. He basically sucks!

Yes, it must be Kelce that sucks.

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Watched as much of KC last night as I have all year (RZ Channel is the devil). Denver's D is decent - pass rush is a plus unit, but Saint Alex is terrible. I have #####ed and moaned all year about Kelce's usage being part Reid stealing money and part Alex Smith being terrible. I'm shifting away from blaming Andy and really moving all in on Smith just not being a productive NFL QB. Colt McCoy is a better NFL QB. Hell, he'd probably be perfect for Andy's system.

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I don't know. I think if they wanted to play a different type of offense they would have drafted a WR over the last couple years. The only offensive players they've drafted in '13 and '14 are four offensive linemen, a backup QB, backup RB, a fullback, a TE, and a gadget type player in DAT. I think that draft philosophy, along with the trade for Alex Smith, screams what kind of offense they wanted to build. And while it is not pretty at times...who can argue with their success? Considering the lack of talent they have at WR I'm quite amazed that they've won as many games as they have the last two seasons.

Kelce is a fantastic talent and has flashed what he can do, but given what we know about how difficult it is for young TEs to learn the position and what we know about the lack of talent in their WR group which makes it impossible to have a successful high volume passing game, what did you really expect? If you expected him to come in and be a reliable guy you could plug into your lineup and ride him...that's on you - not Kelce or Smith.

Alex Smith is fine. He is what he is. He's an intelligent and accurate passer who doesn't turn the ball over and leads a fairly successful offense, but playing catch-up in the fourth quarter is probably not his game. Nor is he being asked to work the field vertically very often, although I still remember that game against the Colts in the playoffs a few months ago so he can do it to some degree. But what do you expect Smith and Reid to do when there are so few weapons? How difficult is it really for a good defense to game plan for Kelce and Charles? And Bowe is exactly the kind of big WR with no real quickness to his game that good CBs will shut down. So in order to surprise defenses you'll see all these plays with DAT, Cyrus Gray, Fasano, Joe McKnight, Anthony Sherman and other no name players that perform gadget plays in order to move the ball. But I'm pretty sure the offense and Kelce would have a lot more success if they had a stronger WR group. Will they spend a high draft pick or two on a WR? I don't know. I would if I were them. They should have seen by now that while they can have quite a bit of success with their current offense, they have very little options when they fall behind. They'll keep most games close with their defense and ball possession but they're not built to play from behind and if they want to change that they'll have to strengthen their receiver core.

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I would have loved to seen the collective reactions of every Kelce owner once Fasano came down with that TD....

Reid is just hilarious. He gives Fasano the seam routes that Kelce should be running and then u see Kelce run little 5 yard outs to move the chains.

Its bizarro world.

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I would have loved to seen the collective reactions of every Kelce owner once Fasano came down with that TD....

Reid is just hilarious. He gives Fasano the seam routes that Kelce should be running and then u see Kelce run little 5 yard outs to move the chains.

Its bizarro world.

I'm a Kelce owner and want him to do well as much as anybody else, but Fasano catching those passes and making those plays means that it's working. If it's working with Fasano, why would they change it? Of course Kelce is a more dynamic player, but maybe he's receiving tougher coverage because of it.

If Fasano was dropping the passes and they kept going to him then we have every reason to be furious. Unfortunately Fasano is doing everything they ask of him and it's limiting Kelce.

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I would have loved to seen the collective reactions of every Kelce owner once Fasano came down with that TD....

I started watching The Walking Dead. It seemed pretty obvious early on that Kelce was going to be underutilized again so I tuned out rather than suffer through all of it again.

I did laugh when Fasano got the 2-point target as well.

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I would have loved to seen the collective reactions of every Kelce owner once Fasano came down with that TD....

Reid is just hilarious. He gives Fasano the seam routes that Kelce should be running and then u see Kelce run little 5 yard outs to move the chains.

Its bizarro world.

I'm a Kelce owner and want him to do well as much as anybody else, but Fasano catching those passes and making those plays means that it's working. If it's working with Fasano, why would they change it? Of course Kelce is a more dynamic player, but maybe he's receiving tougher coverage because of it.

If Fasano was dropping the passes and they kept going to him then we have every reason to be furious. Unfortunately Fasano is doing everything they ask of him and it's limiting Kelce.

The thing is, though, that a couple weeks ago when Fasano was out Kelce was still limited. So even with Fasano out, Kelce wasn't used more. That tells me Fasano isn't having nearly as much of an impact on Kelce as Reid.

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I would have loved to seen the collective reactions of every Kelce owner once Fasano came down with that TD....

Reid is just hilarious. He gives Fasano the seam routes that Kelce should be running and then u see Kelce run little 5 yard outs to move the chains.

Its bizarro world.

I'm a Kelce owner and want him to do well as much as anybody else, but Fasano catching those passes and making those plays means that it's working. If it's working with Fasano, why would they change it? Of course Kelce is a more dynamic player, but maybe he's receiving tougher coverage because of it.

If Fasano was dropping the passes and they kept going to him then we have every reason to be furious. Unfortunately Fasano is doing everything they ask of him and it's limiting Kelce.

The thing is, though, that a couple weeks ago when Fasano was out Kelce was still limited. So even with Fasano out, Kelce wasn't used more. That tells me Fasano isn't having nearly as much of an impact on Kelce as Reid.

Wasn't that the week where they barely threw the ball at all? If I remember correctly, Kelce had something like 40% of the teams targets. The problem is that they don't pass and when they do it's just Smith looking for the safest option.

I think the main problem is Smith. I think Reid is just making the most out of the tools he has available. Why would he throw a bunch when his QB is Alex Smith and his RB is Jamaal Charles.

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I would have loved to seen the collective reactions of every Kelce owner once Fasano came down with that TD....

Reid is just hilarious. He gives Fasano the seam routes that Kelce should be running and then u see Kelce run little 5 yard outs to move the chains.

Its bizarro world.

I'm a Kelce owner and want him to do well as much as anybody else, but Fasano catching those passes and making those plays means that it's working. If it's working with Fasano, why would they change it? Of course Kelce is a more dynamic player, but maybe he's receiving tougher coverage because of it.

If Fasano was dropping the passes and they kept going to him then we have every reason to be furious. Unfortunately Fasano is doing everything they ask of him and it's limiting Kelce.

You should definitely drop Kelce for Fasano.

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For the people making excuses for Reid and Smith, how is it working? Since their little honeymoon period to start the year last year they are under .500 and the fact is he doesn't even use Charles right half the time.

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It's working if they're behind in the 4th, don't throw a pass longer than 5 yards and have Charles picking up blitzes instead of actually getting into space. If that's not what they are trying to do then they've fooled me.

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yeah I'm confused about the whole "it's working" aspect of this discussion. what exactly is working?

You could make the argument a few weeks ago when they had won 5 in a row or whatever it was but with the offense looking impotent in back-to-back losses (including one against a horrible Raiders team) and their playoff lives on the line it seems pretty clear to me things should be changing and more of a focus should go on the team's best playmakers. In this case, that's clearly Charles and Kelce.

ETA - Also, Smith's limitations shouldn't prevent this from happening. Smith is an intermediate passer. Charles and Kelce both excel on those types of routes. It shouldn't take any major changes at all to make them the focal point of the offense moving forward.

Edited by packersfan

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Let's not

yeah I'm confused about the whole "it's working" aspect of this discussion. what exactly is working?

You could make the argument a few weeks ago when they had won 5 in a row or whatever it was but with the offense looking impotent in back-to-back losses (including one against a horrible Raiders team) and their playoff lives on the line it seems pretty clear to me things should be changing and more of a focus should go on the team's best playmakers. In this case, that's clearly Charles and Kelce.

ETA - Also, Smith's limitations shouldn't prevent this from happening. Smith is an intermediate passer. Charles and Kelce both excel on those types of routes. It shouldn't take any major changes at all to make them the focal point of the offense moving forward.

Completely agree.

To add, I also think the O-Line shouldn't be excused either. Smith was under a crazy amount of pressure all night against DEN. Even intermediate throws are tough in this situation.

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I think it's Alex Smith far more than it is Andy Reid.

Too careful taking sacks when he needs to force it. Take a chance.

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I think it's Alex Smith far more than it is Andy Reid.

Too careful taking sacks when he needs to force it. Take a chance.

He's Bizzaro Cutler

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They're number 15 in points per game. They're scoring more points than Chicago, Detroit, Arizona, Giants, teams with much more aggressive schemes. How can you think Smith forcing more throws vertically is going to give a better result with that receiving core? They're still not going to have an elite high volume passing game by any means. They'll just have more turnovers and bad field position. How does that help them? I agree that they should build and expand the offense, which I'm sure they plan to do, but they currently don't have the personnel to do it and that has little to do with Smith.

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They're number 15 in points per game. They're scoring more points than Chicago, Detroit, Arizona, Giants, teams with much more aggressive schemes. How can you think Smith forcing more throws vertically is going to give a better result with that receiving core? They're still not going to have an elite high volume passing game by any means. They'll just have more turnovers and bad field position. How does that help them? I agree that they should build and expand the offense, which I'm sure they plan to do, but they currently don't have the personnel to do it and that has little to do with Smith.

They don't have a lot of offensive weapons, but you make them sound like the Raiders. Bowe is decent, Kelce is very good, and Charles is a stud. They are doing less with more, not the other way around.

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I think the Raiders have better wide receivers and I don't think it's a particularly controversial opinion. James Jones, Andre Holmes, Brice Butler, Rod Streater, Denarius Moore, Vincent Brown and Kenbrell Thompkins. I'd prefer that over Dwayne Bowe, Donnie Avery, Frankie Hammond, Junior Hemingway, Albert Wilson and Jason Avant.

Bowe is so slow without any explosion. All he does is catch slants with no yac and any decent CB will keep him in check. He'll get his 30-60 yards but he hardly commands any attention. He's no threat. He doesn't exactly demand that you play double coverage to limit his ability to take over a game. Kelce is good but the secret was out 10 weeks ago and DCs have planned accordingly. Jamaal Charles is still Jamaal Charles and that's why they win games, along with all these gadget plays that Reid comes up with. Well that, their defense, and not doing stupid mistakes that causes turnovers. One huge problem for them this season is that their defense doesn't force turnovers. Last season they had the second most takeaways, this season they have the third fewest. So even though they don't turn it over they still don't have a positive turnover differential this year. If Smith on top of that started forcing throws which would lead to interceptions...it would kill them.

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I think it's Alex Smith far more than it is Andy Reid.

Too careful taking sacks when he needs to force it. Take a chance.

Nothing needs to be dramatically changed here. You can still get Kelce much more involved even taking Smith's significant limitations into account.

The Chiefs have begun running bubble screens for Thomas. Why not run them for Kelce who has proven he can get big yardage after the catch and get yards after contact? He's a natural for that type of play but Reid won't do it.

There's no question if the Chiefs had a better QB that would help Kelce a lot. But there are so many things that can be done right now with the scheme the team is currently running that would give Kelce much more production and impact their offense far more greatly than what they are currently doing. It's just astonishing to me how Reid refuses to see any of it.

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I really want to like Kelce, but I agree that for whatever reason, he's just not getting it done for fantasy purposes this year (the RZ targets to Fasano are particularly annoying).

Dwayne Allen was miraculously dropped in my league (for Ray Rice!) If I get him, and if he's healthy, I'll give serious thought to starting him over Kelce.

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Kelce is TE11 in PPR right now. I disagree that he isn't getting it done. He's just not getting it done at the level his talent indicates and as we've been discussing I think that falls on Reid.

I would absolutely start a healthy Allen over him, though. Wouldn't give that a second thought.

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Kelce is TE11 in PPR right now. I disagree that he isn't getting it done. He's just not getting it done at the level his talent indicates and as we've been discussing I think that falls on Reid.

I would absolutely start a healthy Allen over him, though. Wouldn't give that a second thought.

That's a bit misleading. The TE position this year is probably the worst its ever been in fantasy football. There are maybe 5 quality options at the moment. So being the 11th ranked TE isn't saying much. At least this year. Its crappy and less crappy once u get past 5 guys...

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Kelce is TE11 in PPR right now. I disagree that he isn't getting it done. He's just not getting it done at the level his talent indicates and as we've been discussing I think that falls on Reid.

I would absolutely start a healthy Allen over him, though. Wouldn't give that a second thought.

That's a bit misleading. The TE position this year is probably the worst its ever been in fantasy football. There are maybe 5 quality options at the moment. So being the 11th ranked TE isn't saying much. At least this year. Its crappy and less crappy once u get past 5 guys...

I agree. TE is a disaster this year outside of Graham, Gronk, Julius, Olsen and Bennett. All the other ones could easily go off one week or put up an absolute dud. Very hard position to predict this year.

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Kelce is TE11 in PPR right now. I disagree that he isn't getting it done. He's just not getting it done at the level his talent indicates and as we've been discussing I think that falls on Reid.

I would absolutely start a healthy Allen over him, though. Wouldn't give that a second thought.

That's a bit misleading. The TE position this year is probably the worst its ever been in fantasy football. There are maybe 5 quality options at the moment. So being the 11th ranked TE isn't saying much. At least this year. Its crappy and less crappy once u get past 5 guys...

I agree but I still don't think Kelce isn't getting it done. He's among a group of TEs who may not always go off but typically (and yes there are always exceptions) aren't going to destroy you most weeks. And I'm referring only to PPR here. I don't play standard leagues so I don't know how things break down there.

But as a Kelce owner I know I can start him with a floor of 6-7 points most weeks. That may not always be wonderful but like you said given how volatile the position is after the top 3 guys I'll take it.

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According to the stats listed on his page on Yahoo, Kelce is catching 77% of his targets for just over 10 yards per target. How this guy isn't utilized more is beyond me.

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According to the stats listed on his page on Yahoo, Kelce is catching 77% of his targets for just over 10 yards per target. How this guy isn't utilized more is beyond me.

It really is baffling. Especially since it's not like the Chiefs WRs have been anything special this year.

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According to the stats listed on his page on Yahoo, Kelce is catching 77% of his targets for just over 10 yards per target. How this guy isn't utilized more is beyond me.

It really is baffling. Especially since it's not like the Chiefs WRs have been anything special this year.

But it is really not all that baffling. Given Alex Smith's tendency to target RBs and TEs, and combine that with an o-line that is currently not able to even give Smith time to target downfield, opposing defenses have an easy job of figuring out who to stop. Andy Reid is a creative playcaller who has to use deception to get Charles and Kelce open. At times it works, at times it doesn't. When they can get the running game going it works a hell of a lot better than when it doesn't. Getting the ball to Kelce is not as easy as just deciding that he should have more targets. I don't think Reid is an idiot and still hasn't figured out that Kelce can be effective. Reid may run a play for Kelce but if coverage dictates the QB to go in a different direction Kelce's not going to be targeted. Defenses are clearly paying more attention to him and picking up his tendencies to avoid bad matchups now that they have game film on him. Ideally that should create opportunity for other Chiefs' players but when the WRs can't get open and the o-line can't give Smith time to find them then you'll have an offense that looks very rough in some games. Particularly when they aren't able to run the ball and find themselves in third-and-long far too frequently. With a poor o-line and a bad WR group it can look very ugly.

As we saw with Brady in the early part of the season an offense needs to work across the different position groups in other to function properly. It doesn't really work to have a couple good players and let them carry you. The game doesn't work like that.

Edited by Louche

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According to the stats listed on his page on Yahoo, Kelce is catching 77% of his targets for just over 10 yards per target. How this guy isn't utilized more is beyond me.

Look at the third-down stats I posted. Guy is money in clutch, move-the-sticks situations. Every metric available screams out for more usage but Reid just refuses to do the common sense thing.

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Mooch (or maybe Kurt Warner) did a segment on Alex Smith a couple weeks ago. They showed a bunch of examples using the all-22 coaches' tape where the PRIMARY read was WIDE OPEN on either intermediate or deep routes (and this was Kelce several times), and Alex Smith inexplicably refused to throw to him, instead either running or dumping it off to someone short. They were highly critical of Smith. This isn't about Smith refusing to force balls into coverage downfield, this is about Smith simply being afraid to throw the ball further than 10 yards even if receivers are open.

Can't blame that on Andy Reid, I wouldn't think.

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In today's NFL it is so much easier to get open, this isn't about defenses shutting down Kelce or even Bowe. This is either Alex Smith's ability or Andy Reid. I think it is both, but more on Smith.

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In today's NFL it is so much easier to get open, this isn't about defenses shutting down Kelce or even Bowe. This is either Alex Smith's ability or Andy Reid. I think it is both, but more on Smith.

The most ironic part in this is that Andy Reid, while coaching Philly, was notorious for always passing the ball constantly. I think that says way more about Alex Smith than anything else.

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Mooch (or maybe Kurt Warner) did a segment on Alex Smith a couple weeks ago. They showed a bunch of examples using the all-22 coaches' tape where the PRIMARY read was WIDE OPEN on either intermediate or deep routes (and this was Kelce several times), and Alex Smith inexplicably refused to throw to him, instead either running or dumping it off to someone short. They were highly critical of Smith. This isn't about Smith refusing to force balls into coverage downfield, this is about Smith simply being afraid to throw the ball further than 10 yards even if receivers are open.

Can't blame that on Andy Reid, I wouldn't think.

Smith must have a $2M bonus in his contract if he throws less than 7 int's so he'd rather have the offense stall than take a chance.

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Mooch (or maybe Kurt Warner) did a segment on Alex Smith a couple weeks ago. They showed a bunch of examples using the all-22 coaches' tape where the PRIMARY read was WIDE OPEN on either intermediate or deep routes (and this was Kelce several times), and Alex Smith inexplicably refused to throw to him, instead either running or dumping it off to someone short. They were highly critical of Smith. This isn't about Smith refusing to force balls into coverage downfield, this is about Smith simply being afraid to throw the ball further than 10 yards even if receivers are open.

Can't blame that on Andy Reid, I wouldn't think.

Smith is far from perfect. Reid can make the plays and progressions but Smith has to make the reads and use his judgment correctly. I will definitely concede that he is a risk averse decision maker. There's no denying that. But there are TV experts that have made arguments against Smith and there are TV experts that has come out in his support. I haven't seen the one you reference but I can find these evaluations to be a bit sensationalist. And they tend to swing depending on last week's performance. If he's had a good game they'll put on tape to show he is a true franchise QB and if he's had a bad week they'll pull up examples to show why he is awful. Are they looking at his entire body of work or are they digging up certain plays to support their argument? I follow a few KCC beat writers (Covitz, Teicher) and some of them like Terez Paylor study the All-22 every week. None of them have highlighted Smith as the problem of this offense as far as I have seen. The blame primarily falls on the WRs and the OL and the general opinion seems to be that they need to build more offensive talent in order to have a more consistent offense. Or you can turn to play by play grades like PFF or Football Outsiders do. PFF has him as QB14 and FO has him as QB12. He's not a top QB but he's good. He's an above average NFL QB.

Alex Smith has the shortest average depth of target by any QB in the league but KCC still leads the league in drops per target at 6.1%. As in not in the top 10 or top 5 or anything, they are number 1. It pops up when you're watching games as well. They'll play their short game, run into a penalty or a negative play causing third-and-long, and those times where Alex Smith makes the throw the receiver will drop it - way too often. Bowe's drop rate has been between 9-13% every year in the league except for his rookie year, but it's not just Bowe. It's been most of them; Hammond, DAT, Hemingway, Fasano, Davis, Sherman - they all have drop rates over 10%.

There is also a common misconception that Smith takes off and runs at the first sign of pressure. That's simply not true but it's something that people bring up again and again. Even though the o-line is giving up a lot of pressure he spends the 5th most time in the pocket before he starts to scramble. Last year he ranked number 8 and he's never been outside of the top 10 over the last five seasons. His average time from the snap to when he attempts a pass is the 5th fastest this season. So he's getting the ball out fast, which I'm sure is in part because of pressure, but if he doesn't find a throw based off his progression he'll stay in the pocket and look for someone to get open. Some of it is of course also hesitation. You could blame it on his vision and his risk averse decision making, but he stays in the pocket for a long time before he scrambles.

Alex Smith is not the reason that Travis Kelce is not utilized more. Smith has his limitations and tendencies, but one would think that those limitations would play in Kelce's favor, not against him. I have no doubt that Kelce's targets will rise as they build more talent in their WR group. KCC beat writers seem to think that they will go WR-OL-ILB-CB-S in the draft.

In the meantime I'm sure there will be more fuel to the fire this week as KCC takes on one of the most blitz heavy teams in the league. The KCC OL has struggled badly with stunts and blitzes so I expect the Cardinals to chase Smith around. If KCC can't get the running game going they will struggle.

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