Godsbrother
Footballguy
That's great but Mike Wallace's problem was never a lack of speed. It was questionable hands, concentration and desire.
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Avoid Mike Wallace, the Raven? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Shutout
- Start date
Touchdown There
Footballguy
I call bull on the desire. That is your opinion only. As far as questionable hands and concentration, why don't you back it up with some rankings on his drop percentages over the years?
Mike Wallace's only problem has been Tannehill's inability to throw an accurate deep ball.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Looks like pretty good numbers to me when he is healthy and has a good QB:
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr2010
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr2011
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr2010
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr2011
Touchdown There
Footballguy
So here is a nice little recap;
2009 - Rookie, did well for his given playing time
2010 - Fantastic stats in the link above
2011 - Fantastic stats in the link above
2012 - Steeler's decide to screw Wallace because they had cap issues and he was unhappy. Steeler's get what they pay for and go 8-8 to miss the playoffs.
2013 & 2014 - Ended up with decent stats, even with the worst deep ball QB in the league (Tannehill)
Pwingles
Footballguy
Devils advocate here;Touchdown There said:
Re: desire
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/report--mike-wallace-quit-on-dolphins-teammates-014515065.html
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Even his teammates called him to the floor on it.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
A guy offered 50 million dollars when he wanted 60 went in the tank and that's the team's fault. Is Wallace your uncle or something? Keep riding that dead horse, man.Touchdown There said:
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
I don't know why I bother. He's clearly either a staggering idiot or on a long fishing trip. I just can't help myself. I'm surprised he's not in the MOP pizza thread still yelling about how two 10" pizzas is more than one 18".
MikeyTitle
Footballguy
That was when the Steelers took the offer of the table and offered it to Antonio Brown instead. Everybody knows who the better WR is between the two now. Anybody whose played a team sport of any kind from my daughter's 5th grade volleyball to intramural ultimate frisbee that ppl Pay to play knows you have to be a selfish baby to quit on your team like that. Quitting when your getting paid 50 Million to do your JOB is a whole new level of pathetic. "Mom! Ryan threw Charles a touchdown and not me! It's not fair, I called it first!"
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Wallace's drops and weak pass routes were well documented his final season and a half with the Steelers.Touchdown There said:
I don't reall care about the Wallace vs. Brown Steelers talk, doesn't impact this year. That said, I owned him in 2 of 3 leagues last year and he worked out pretty well. 11 out of 15 good or great PPR games and a worst of 7 PPR points. I also watched a few games and saw Tannehill miss him deep with bad throws or just not throwing when he was wide open. If ADP plays and Bridgewater improves, Wallace could be a steal. He'll likely be your WR3.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
You will notice that all the above responses are from Steeler's fans. They still hold a grudge that Wallace was pissy about his poor treatment from the organization. They got what they paid for in 2012 and missed the playoffs.
Additionally, homers think that Brown is the better receiver. He is damn good, but Wallace is the better receiver. If Wallace played for the Steelers and Brown played for the Dolphins the last few years you would see a flip flop in their statistics. A WR can only be as effective as the QB throwing the ball. Wallace's skill set matched up perfectly with Big Ben's ability to avoid the rush "big country" style and extend the play to allow receivers to get deep. He also has cannon arm and accuracy to hit Wallace deep. That is the opposite of Tannehill and Wallace still ended up WR2 in fantasy leagues the last few years.
The issue never was Wallace vs Brown. The issue has always been Wallace vs the Steelers brass and Wallace won with a massive payday and no state taxes. The Steelers have done squat since Wallace left and have nothing to brag about, regardless of how well Brown has been doing.
** insert more Steelers homer's nonsense below **
massraider
Footballguy
What a weird torch to keep carrying. Steelers clearly have no regrets about the move, you can't pay two WRs #1 money, the Dolphins clearly made a mistake investing in Wallace, and it's not 2013,so this is a really boring argument.
Shutout
Footballguy
Just out of curiosity, do all Steelers fans get a text alert or something when something bad is said about the Steelers? LOL. Its uncanny how quick you guys sniff out disturbances in the force.A guy offered 50 million dollars when he wanted 60 went in the tank and that's the team's fault. Is Wallace your uncle or something? Keep riding that dead horse, man.Touchdown There said:
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Yup, just as boring as the Steelers players sitting on their couch watching the playoffs on TV for two years in a row. They don't regret sucking? Every time Wallace is brought up in a thread you see a mass of butt hurt Steelers fan talking smack about him. Mike Wallace won with his paycheck. Steelers didn't win SQUAT. They lost Emmanual Sanders and now have an unhappy Brown with his paycheck plus a lack of other receiving options.
The facts are that Mike Wallace was a perfect fit in that offense and he showed it for years leading up to 2012. What would 2012 and 2013 have been like if they had paid Wallace and found money to keep Brown in 2013? Would that have been enough to get them into the playoffs and fight for a title. I don't think this league is about winning a personal c*ck fight with a single player to prove a point, it is about winning the Super Bowl.
The butt hurt masses on this board only care about blindly supporting the administration of their home team. I don't care about how good Brown is, the discussion has never been about that. It is about assembling a top notch football team and the Steelers brass blew it big time.
Shutout
Footballguy
Agree. I think this is one where the duty to uphold the staunch tradition of not caving in to players, etc, forced them to draw a line in the dirt that bit them on the butt. The steelers and their fans can say they won based on finances, on the production of Wallace, etc, and they are right in that sense but there is no doubt that the marriage of Wallace and Pittsburgh had that team going in one direction that it hasn't been on since he left.
That scenario is what created this thread.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
To get the conversation back somewhere relevant, I'm a buyer on Wallace this year assuming the price is reasonable. Norv Turner loves him some vertical WRs, and Peterson should be back in the fold at the end of the day to pull those safeties up toward the box. If Bridgewater develops and can get the deep ball working (which Tannehill never did), Wallace could be huge again this year. Plus, given the lack of remaining guaranteed $ in his deal moving forward, motivation should be high -- if he craps the bed this year the Vikes can just cut him with no penalty and he'll be hugely unlikely to ever sniff top money again.
FUBAR
Footballguy
you must mean better deep threat. Wouldn't argue there.
We'll see how Wallace does with Teddy, I like the fit and have him in a couple leagues.
but this Steelers hatred is almost comical.
FWIW, Brown would have done well in Miami. His strengths would have worked much better with Tannehill's than Wallace did.
I agree that Norv tends to be good for the vertical threat in his offenses, but Charles Johnson is no slouch in that department. So Wallace isn't guaranteed all the deep targets. I think Wallace is underrated and a more complete WR than people give him credit for, but his situation with the Vikings is pretty murky. He needs to be the primary deep threat, Bridgewater needs to be decent at throwing the deep ball, and his o-line need to be able to block well enough for them to be able to call and execute these plays.
grateful zed
Footballguy
worse that alex smith?Touchdown There said:
massraider
Footballguy
You have to throw it deep to qualify.grateful zed said:
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
Rarely do you get to see someone toss the last shovel of dirt on his own grave, but I'll be damned. You've done it.Touchdown There said:
Biabreakable
Footballguy
This question arose in regards to how the Vikings intend to use Mike Wallace in Norv Turners offense.
To the best of my understanding Mike Wallace was used as an X or split end WR early on in his career with Pittsburgh. They had Hines Ward and then Antonio Brown playing the Z or flanker position.
The Dolphins used Wallace mostly as a Z receiver. So the assumption seems to be that the Vikings would do the same. But as I have said before, I think it is more likely they have Wallace play the X position in Norv Turners offense.
Here is an article that talks about that from earlier today.
To the best of my understanding Mike Wallace was used as an X or split end WR early on in his career with Pittsburgh. They had Hines Ward and then Antonio Brown playing the Z or flanker position.
The Dolphins used Wallace mostly as a Z receiver. So the assumption seems to be that the Vikings would do the same. But as I have said before, I think it is more likely they have Wallace play the X position in Norv Turners offense.
Here is an article that talks about that from earlier today.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Nice lotto ticket.
mikmak8902
Footballguy
I haven't watched alot of Teddy Bridgewater. How is he as a deep ball thrower? With AP back, and an underrated Charles Johnson on the other side, I would have to imagine the opportunity will be there for Wallace to realize whatever potential he possesses if Bridgewater can be somewhat accurate and timely with the deep ball.
mr roboto
Footballguy
He struggled earlier in the season but got a little better. It's not one of his strengths.
Faust
MVP
Mike Wallace more comfortable in Vikings' offense:
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000494480/article/mike-wallace-more-comfortable-in-vikings-offense
http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000494480/article/mike-wallace-more-comfortable-in-vikings-offense
Biabreakable
Footballguy
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ourmanflint
Footballguy
He was better than Tannehill last year. His accuracy was 46.3% on 41 throws over 20 yards. Tannehill's was 37.7%. Tannehill was noticeably worse in 2013.
I remember a couple of beauties for TDs, one to Charles Johnson against the Jets and another at least 40 yards against the Bears.
Faust
MVP
karmarooster
Footballguy
Saw this in the Gut Check:
Any homers have indication as to who is the WR1 here?
- Mike Wallace - Most accounts from local media describe Wallace as the primary option in Minnesota's offense. The fast growth of Charles Johnson and the return of Kyle Rudoph should give Wallace a great environment to have consistent weeks. If Teddy Bridgewater makes the next step, Wallace is in an ideally balanced offense to give him a top-12 ceiling.
- Charles Johnson - One of the best ways I've heard Johnson described is that his athleticism and size is much closer to Josh Gordon than people realize. There are two teams in the NFL that regret cutting this UDFA. Former Browns' offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan has been public about it. Johnson will play the secondary role in Norv Turner's passing game, which generally caps that players' upside. I'm stilling adding Johnson, because I believe that, like John Brown, there's still sizable growth potential for his game. There's also the possibility that Wallace or Rudolph gets hurt and Bridgewater leans more on Johnson.
Any homers have indication as to who is the WR1 here?
Catbird
Footballguy
I'm not a homer and don't have any inside information, but I think it's common for GM's, in particular, to emphasize new players acquired over the off-season to make themselves and the organization look smart and productive. Many an added player gets huge early hype and is named a starter before practices ever begin. I suggest you stick to your guns on Johnson and don't expect anyone to walk in and diminish his role until you see them doing it - particularly someone with the checkered recent production of Wallace who was essentially cut in the last city he rode in on a white hyped horse to save.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Mikey was open a lot in Miami, QB just couldn't get in rhythm with him. I have no doubt both will flourish this season. Teddy has ADP to take the load off and Mikey has some of the best first 3-5 step to gain separation in football. I watched him up close in the stadium a lot and he was open a lot. That's the facts, his numbers with BB were no accident.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I have been saying Mike Wallace will be the #1 target for Teddy Bridgewater since the Vikings traded for him. Nothing since then has caused me to change my mind. In fact most everything (as has already been posted in this thread) points towards that being the case.karmarooster said:
karmarooster
Footballguy
Rotoworld:
This is reasonable but it actually looks like Wallace is on the outside looking in (where he should be, avoiding contact, not going over the middle, and not going after contested balls). But he sure is fast!
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Jack White
Footballguy
That's what she said.Ministry of Pain said:20 inches is more than 18 for goodness sake
But seriously, one 18-inch pizza is considerably more pizza than two 10-inch pizzas.
As for Wallace, I owned him last year and had The Ticket, so I saw most of his snaps.
Based on my observations, I can tell you two things:
One, he improved as a route runner and did a lot more than run go routes. And he became a legitimate red zone weapon.
Two, when they did send him deep, Tanny rarely hit him. Tanny cost him at least four long TDs last year, if not more. Hit, say, just three of those and his PPR average goes up a couple points.
He has his flaws, yes, but he is a quality WR and I would happily select him at his current ADP or later as my 3rd or 4th WR.
Shutout
Footballguy
How do you know it wasn't the other way around? Maybe Tanny put the ball where it was supposed to be and Wallace didn't run the route exactly as he should.That's what she said.Ministry of Pain said:20 inches is more than 18 for goodness sake
But seriously, one 18-inch pizza is considerably more pizza than two 10-inch pizzas.
As for Wallace, I owned him last year and had The Ticket, so I saw most of his snaps.
Based on my observations, I can tell you two things:
One, he improved as a route runner and did a lot more than run go routes. And he became a legitimate red zone weapon.
Two, when they did send him deep, Tanny rarely hit him. Tanny cost him at least four long TDs last year, if not more. Hit, say, just three of those and his PPR average goes up a couple points.
He has his flaws, yes, but he is a quality WR and I would happily select him at his current ADP or later as my 3rd or 4th WR.
These things can go either way. It is obvious when a guy breaks out and the QB throws in or whatnot but we don't know how many times a QB/WR practice a play during the week and then the QB knows "on this play, I drop 3, I toss it just like this and there's my guy 37 yards down field" but then when the game comes around, the WR didn't run fast enough or ran too fast or whatever and didn't run that same route practiced.
I don't know which is likely to be more correct but it seems like there is a LOT of smoke that has followed Wallace everywhere he has been in terms of route running in general.
While it is true "things can go either way," in this case Wallace has proven in the past he can connect with a QB (Big Ben) on deep balls. Tannehill has yet to prove the same with any WR and was 28th in ypa last year. Benefit of the doubt goes to Wallace.How do you know it wasn't the other way around? Maybe Tanny put the ball where it was supposed to be and Wallace didn't run the route exactly as he should.That's what she said.Ministry of Pain said:20 inches is more than 18 for goodness sake
But seriously, one 18-inch pizza is considerably more pizza than two 10-inch pizzas.
As for Wallace, I owned him last year and had The Ticket, so I saw most of his snaps.
Based on my observations, I can tell you two things:
One, he improved as a route runner and did a lot more than run go routes. And he became a legitimate red zone weapon.
Two, when they did send him deep, Tanny rarely hit him. Tanny cost him at least four long TDs last year, if not more. Hit, say, just three of those and his PPR average goes up a couple points.
He has his flaws, yes, but he is a quality WR and I would happily select him at his current ADP or later as my 3rd or 4th WR.
These things can go either way. It is obvious when a guy breaks out and the QB throws in or whatnot but we don't know how many times a QB/WR practice a play during the week and then the QB knows "on this play, I drop 3, I toss it just like this and there's my guy 37 yards down field" but then when the game comes around, the WR didn't run fast enough or ran too fast or whatever and didn't run that same route practiced.
I don't know which is likely to be more correct but it seems like there is a LOT of smoke that has followed Wallace everywhere he has been in terms of route running in general.
karmarooster
Footballguy
I don't think the issue here is whether or not Wallace can run deep routes well. It's all the others.
The difficulty with Wallace is that he's too good to simply be a Terrance Williams / Kenny Stills type WR2, but not complete enough to be a true WR1. He's no better than a DeSean Jackson (although doesn't offer anything close the Desean in the open field on on PR). And he somehow managed to get paid (almost) like a Dez or DT. That was nice work on his and his agent's part. But he's certainly not worth that.
The difficulty with Wallace is that he's too good to simply be a Terrance Williams / Kenny Stills type WR2, but not complete enough to be a true WR1. He's no better than a DeSean Jackson (although doesn't offer anything close the Desean in the open field on on PR). And he somehow managed to get paid (almost) like a Dez or DT. That was nice work on his and his agent's part. But he's certainly not worth that.
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Biabreakable
Footballguy
karmarooster you asked for a 
take on the situation. I offered you my honest opinion yet you prefer to listen to rotoword it seems when what I say isn't what you wanted to hear.
Mike Wallace as you say is more than just a deep threat WR2. I disagree with your opinion that he isn't a complete WR capable of being a true WR1 but our definition of what a WR1 is may also not be the same.
It certainly is possible that Charles Johnson or another WR gets more targets/receptions/yards/TD than Mike Wallace does in 2015 but I think the most likely scenario is that Mike Wallace is the leader in all of these categories by seasons end. That could mean that Johnson is only a few catches behind Wallace or it could mean there is a bigger gap between their production, I think that depends on how much Rudolph, other TE and the RB are targeted, as well as Patterson and Wright.
The amount of money that Wallace makes isn't an issue that concerns me. Rick Spielman and the front office will handle that. It seems unfair to judge him based on how much money he made. It is immaterial to his value in FF.
Wallace has finished as a WR1 for fantasy in two of his six seasons. The worst he has placed in WR performance was 29th overall as a rookie. He has scored 8 or more TD in four out of six seasons.
If Charles Johnson doubled his production from last season we are looking at 62 receptions 950 yards 4TD
Mike Wallace has outperformed those numbers in every one of his six seasons. So I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Wallace to perform at least somewhat better than Johnson or any other Vikings WR does.
take on the situation. I offered you my honest opinion yet you prefer to listen to rotoword it seems when what I say isn't what you wanted to hear.Mike Wallace as you say is more than just a deep threat WR2. I disagree with your opinion that he isn't a complete WR capable of being a true WR1 but our definition of what a WR1 is may also not be the same.
It certainly is possible that Charles Johnson or another WR gets more targets/receptions/yards/TD than Mike Wallace does in 2015 but I think the most likely scenario is that Mike Wallace is the leader in all of these categories by seasons end. That could mean that Johnson is only a few catches behind Wallace or it could mean there is a bigger gap between their production, I think that depends on how much Rudolph, other TE and the RB are targeted, as well as Patterson and Wright.
The amount of money that Wallace makes isn't an issue that concerns me. Rick Spielman and the front office will handle that. It seems unfair to judge him based on how much money he made. It is immaterial to his value in FF.
Wallace has finished as a WR1 for fantasy in two of his six seasons. The worst he has placed in WR performance was 29th overall as a rookie. He has scored 8 or more TD in four out of six seasons.
If Charles Johnson doubled his production from last season we are looking at 62 receptions 950 yards 4TD
Mike Wallace has outperformed those numbers in every one of his six seasons. So I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Wallace to perform at least somewhat better than Johnson or any other Vikings WR does.
Shutout
Footballguy
I'm still avoiding anything near of thinking of him as a WR1. Peterson will be on perma-showcase this year and Johnson and Rudolph are formidable options. Add to that a second-year QB and this thing reeks of feast or famine, inconsistency, and a general recipe for the things you don't like on a FF team.
I'm sure he will have a couple of big play games and remind us of what he brings to the table but he's also going to be the guy that ends up 4/37 some days and I don't like that, for the price.
I'm sure he will have a couple of big play games and remind us of what he brings to the table but he's also going to be the guy that ends up 4/37 some days and I don't like that, for the price.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
How much the Vikings run the ball is certainly an issue to consider.
Numberfire has Wallace projected for 65.7 receptions 868.57 yards 4.67 TD which is WR 34 overall. This is lower than he has ever finished during his six seasons. As I mentioned previously the lowest he has ever finished is at WR 29.
They have Charles Johnson projected for 54.88 receptions 784.62 yards 5.21 TD
Numberfire has Wallace projected for 65.7 receptions 868.57 yards 4.67 TD which is WR 34 overall. This is lower than he has ever finished during his six seasons. As I mentioned previously the lowest he has ever finished is at WR 29.
They have Charles Johnson projected for 54.88 receptions 784.62 yards 5.21 TD
Biabreakable
Footballguy
As a WR1 for fantasy? I don't think anyone is suggesting he will do that. I certainly am not. I am talking about him being the highest performing WR on the Vikings team. Big difference.
I don't see anything suggesting his ADP is such that he is being drafted as a WR 1.
FFcalculatior Mike Wallace is pick 8.01 (85th overall) Charles Johnson is 8.02
MFL ADP Mike Wallace 100th overall Charles Johnson 96th
He is being drafted in the WR 4/5 range.
Evilgrin 72
Distributor of Pain
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