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Manuel has a lot of strides he needs to make to ever be a starting NFL qb. It was clear he has a lot of issues. As a young QB the one thing you look for to predict future success especially in year 2 is a guy who is able to read a defense and he just can't get off his first read.

This actually isn't true. Manuel has made big strides in reading through his progressions this season. His inaccuracy has been the biggest problem by far.

It's all tied together. The inability to reset his eyes and feet have been a problem since college. He may be getting to his second read, but he can't execute because his mechanics are a mess. It isn't like these reads are down field either, although when he tries to go down field he is even worse. It's a horizontal passing game. His completion % numbers should be near the top in the league in this scheme.

This is all stuff he may have been able to work through had he been properly managed from the beginning, but since he was rushed, no chance.

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I've only gone through the 1st half of the Texans game so far but this is what I have:

- two drops by Watkins

- two drops by Williams

- one possible drop by Woods (could have been a good play by the DB)

- two deflected passes at the LOS

- two overthrown passes (one to Watkins, one to Woods)

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I've only gone through the 1st half of the Texans game so far but this is what I have:

- two drops by Watkins

- two drops by Williams

- one possible drop by Woods (could have been a good play by the DB)

- two deflected passes at the LOS

- two overthrown passes (one to Watkins, one to Woods)

The WRs did him no favors in the first half, but keep watching... Manuel was his own worst enemy in the second half.

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I've only gone through the 1st half of the Texans game so far but this is what I have:

- two drops by Watkins

- two drops by Williams

- one possible drop by Woods (could have been a good play by the DB)

- two deflected passes at the LOS

- two overthrown passes (one to Watkins, one to Woods)

IIRC, many of those passes were thrown at the feet or almost out of the reach of the receiver. They may have been marked as drops because the receiver got their hands on it, but they were such ####ty passes that the receiver would have had to have stick-um on their hands to make those catches. One time Watkins was pretty open and Manuel had time to make the throw and threw it right at his ankles.

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IIRC, many of those passes were thrown at the feet or almost out of the reach of the receiver.

All five of those were on target. He was off on a couple of deep passes that I noted, but otherwise he was on target the whole 1st half.

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EJ Manuel isn't an NFL-caliber QB....They made a huge mistake 2 yrs ago. At least they're finally owning up to it.

huge mistake?

they traded down and still got Kiko Alonso in the deal. The Rams traded up for Tavon Austin.

I'd still rather have the Bills side of the trade.

Agreed. Trying to find a franchise QB when you don't have one is never a mistake, even if it doesn't work out ex post.

Manuel wasn't ever a franchise qb, he was an over drafted project. If they didn't like any of the qb's then do what the jags did last year and build depth, look for the franchise qb later.

Drafting Manuel was a crippling mistake, it cost all of these guys their job (eventually). When all is said and done they will have wasted three, maybe four, years because of that pick. That's near the top of the list.

None of this makes any sense. Drafting Manuel only sets you back 3-4 years if you stubbornly stick with the guy even when he doesn't pan out. The Bills demonstrably aren't doing that.

Who is going to be their QB next year?

No idea. Presumably they'll address this position in free agency and/or the draft.

Clearly the Bills whiffed on Manuel -- very few people are disputing that. It doesn't follow that missing on a pick has to set the franchise back 3-4 years. Like many of us have been saying, you should keep picking QBs until you get one that works out, and that's going to mean having some misses.

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IIRC, many of those passes were thrown at the feet or almost out of the reach of the receiver.

All five of those were on target. He was off on a couple of deep passes that I noted, but otherwise he was on target the whole 1st half.

And Trent Richardson was over 4.0 ypc through 5 carries... Look man, I don't care how many passes were on target. Manuel stinks and I'm ecstatic they decided to give him the axe. I don't even want him holding a clipboard at this point. He is dreadful.

Edited by georg013

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IIRC, many of those passes were thrown at the feet or almost out of the reach of the receiver.

All five of those were on target. He was off on a couple of deep passes that I noted, but otherwise he was on target the whole 1st half.

You must have missed the one he threw 6 feet behind Woods, but you're wasting your time anyway- he's not accurate, never has been. Heck, he's not even accurate in practice a lot of the time.

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IIRC, many of those passes were thrown at the feet or almost out of the reach of the receiver.

All five of those were on target. He was off on a couple of deep passes that I noted, but otherwise he was on target the whole 1st half.

You must have missed the one he threw 6 feet behind Woods, but you're wasting your time anyway- he's not accurate, never has been. Heck, he's not even accurate in practice a lot of the time.

That's one of the ones that was tipped at the line.

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Started looking at the 2nd half:

- how do you not block Watt? If Chandler picks him up it's not a pick 6.

- Watkins with another drop

- 80 yard TD to Williams was right on the money

- Chandler had a drop/pass broken up and on another play wasn't even looking for the ball

- Manuel had 4 or 5 poorly thrown passes but it wasn't the disaster I expected. They win the game without the pick 6.

Edited by cstu

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Started looking at the 2nd half:

- how do you not block Watt? If Chandler picks him up it's not a pick 6.

- Watkins with another drop

- 80 yard TD to Williams was right on the money

- Chandler had a drop/pass broken up and on another play wasn't even looking for the ball

- Manuel had 4 or 5 poorly thrown passes but it wasn't the disaster I expected. They win the game without the pick 6.

You and I watched different games. The 80 yarder I saw was NOT right on the money, for example. It was a poor pass but Williams was so incredibly open that EJ's inaccuracy didn't matter.

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Started looking at the 2nd half:

- how do you not block Watt? If Chandler picks him up it's not a pick 6.

- Watkins with another drop

- 80 yard TD to Williams was right on the money

- Chandler had a drop/pass broken up and on another play wasn't even looking for the ball

- Manuel had 4 or 5 poorly thrown passes but it wasn't the disaster I expected. They win the game without the pick 6.

You and I watched different games. The 80 yarder I saw was NOT right on the money, for example. It was a poor pass but Williams was so incredibly open that EJ's inaccuracy didn't matter.

A poor pass? Williams didn't have to break stride to catch it and Manuel throwing on the run.

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Started looking at the 2nd half:

- how do you not block Watt? If Chandler picks him up it's not a pick 6.

- Watkins with another drop

- 80 yard TD to Williams was right on the money

- Chandler had a drop/pass broken up and on another play wasn't even looking for the ball

- Manuel had 4 or 5 poorly thrown passes but it wasn't the disaster I expected. They win the game without the pick 6.

You and I watched different games. The 80 yarder I saw was NOT right on the money, for example. It was a poor pass but Williams was so incredibly open that EJ's inaccuracy didn't matter.

A poor pass? Williams didn't have to break stride to catch it and Manuel throwing on the run.

Yes, and I said so in the game thread at the time. The pass was late in getting to the receiver. If there had been a CB in the same area code as Williams, he would have plenty of time to make a play on it. As it was, it didn't matter.

Honestly, though, this one particular play is just an example. If you're watching Manuel's games and honestly think that his accuracy is just fine, I don't know what to tell you. I just disagree strongly.

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If you're watching Manuel's games and honestly think that his accuracy is just fine, I don't know what to tell you. I just disagree strongly.

I'm not disagreeing that he needs to work on his accuracy, I only disagree about how poor his accuracy is.

The odds are against him but there are other QB's with similar starts to their careers:

        NAME 	        POS 	YRs 	        G 	CMP 	ATT 	PYD 	Y/A 	PTD 	INT 	FANT PT	Michael Vick	qb	2001--2002	23	281	534	3721	6.97	18	11	411.6	Brett Favre	qb	1991--1992	17	302	476	3227	6.78	18	15	244.2	EJ Manuel	qb	2013--2014	14	256	437	2810	6.43	16	12	234.3	Drew Brees	qb	2001--2002	17	335	553	3505	6.34	18	16	252.1	Donovan McNabb	qb	1999--2000	28	436	785	4313	5.49	29	20	441.9

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EJ Manuel isn't an NFL-caliber QB....They made a huge mistake 2 yrs ago. At least they're finally owning up to it.

huge mistake?

they traded down and still got Kiko Alonso in the deal. The Rams traded up for Tavon Austin.

I'd still rather have the Bills side of the trade.

Agreed. Trying to find a franchise QB when you don't have one is never a mistake, even if it doesn't work out ex post.

Manuel wasn't ever a franchise qb, he was an over drafted project. If they didn't like any of the qb's then do what the jags did last year and build depth, look for the franchise qb later.

Drafting Manuel was a crippling mistake, it cost all of these guys their job (eventually). When all is said and done they will have wasted three, maybe four, years because of that pick. That's near the top of the list.

None of this makes any sense. Drafting Manuel only sets you back 3-4 years if you stubbornly stick with the guy even when he doesn't pan out. The Bills demonstrably aren't doing that.

Who is going to be their QB next year?

No idea. Presumably they'll address this position in free agency and/or the draft.

Clearly the Bills whiffed on Manuel -- very few people are disputing that. It doesn't follow that missing on a pick has to set the franchise back 3-4 years. Like many of us have been saying, you should keep picking QBs until you get one that works out, and that's going to mean having some misses.

how are they going to fix it in the draft? What free agent will they pick up?

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I'm amazed anyone would watch that game and come away saying anything other than EJ's decision making, mechanics, and accuracy are terrible.

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how are they going to fix it in the draft? What free agent will they pick up?

I don't know that they will, but it isn't impossible to find a starting QB outside of the first round. it's also not impossible for a team who traded away their 1st to make another trade for a different 1st round pick.

there's some interesting guys on this list outside of the big 2:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2015/QB

maybe they'll grab Mark Sanchez or Brian Hoyer or Jake Locker in free agency. Maybe they'll make a move for Kirk Cousins.

Maybe Orton and Manuel will still be the 1 and 2 next year after this team goes out and wins the division with Orton under center this year.

who knows.

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I'm amazed anyone would watch that game and come away saying anything other than EJ's decision making, mechanics, and accuracy are terrible.

I didn't watch the game live, only Manuel's plays on Rewind.

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If you're watching Manuel's games and honestly think that his accuracy is just fine, I don't know what to tell you. I just disagree strongly.

I'm not disagreeing that he needs to work on his accuracy, I only disagree about how poor his accuracy is.

The odds are against him but there are other QB's with similar starts to their careers:

        NAME 	        POS 	YRs 	        G 	CMP 	ATT 	PYD 	Y/A 	PTD 	INT 	FANT PT	Michael Vick	qb	2001--2002	23	281	534	3721	6.97	18	11	411.6	Brett Favre	qb	1991--1992	17	302	476	3227	6.78	18	15	244.2	EJ Manuel	qb	2013--2014	14	256	437	2810	6.43	16	12	234.3	Drew Brees	qb	2001--2002	17	335	553	3505	6.34	18	16	252.1	Donovan McNabb	qb	1999--2000	28	436	785	4313	5.49	29	20	441.9

You need to look beyond the raw stats. One reason that his completion percentage isn't much worse than it is is because he dinks and dunks so often- he leads the NFL in attempts, completions, and yards thrown to RBs this season, for instance.

Also, it's not just the number of times he's inaccurate, it's by how much- there's a big difference between missing by inches and missing by feet, and many times EJ isn't even close to his target. His touch is very hit or miss on passes as well.

You said that you saw Watkins have 2 drops, Williams have 2 drops, and maybe 1 more drop by Woods in the 1st half last week. Drops aren't an official stat so there's going to be discrepancy, but this site has the Bills with only 3 drops on the entire season, fewer than you saw in just the 1st half of one game. I also saw something that said that Woods is among the league leaders in targets that are uncatchable.

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Wow. Less than a year and a half in, and the experts have his career already over. Because no QB has had a rough start early in his career, other than those who had no career to speak of. Right, experts?

.

Edited by Bronco Billy
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Wow. Less than a year and a half in, and the experts have his career already over. Because no QB has had a rough start early in his career, other than those who had no career to speak of. Right, experts?

.

Name 1 QB in the last 15 years who's looked this bad over his first 2 seasons, then turned into a quality QB....

EJ Manuel is the outlier? Meh.

He's just not good. It happens.

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Wow. Less than a year and a half in, and the experts have his career already over. Because no QB has had a rough start early in his career, other than those who had no career to speak of. Right, experts?

.

His career isn't over. He just never had a chance in Buffalo because of the product that he was when he came in and the way this staff managed him.

I hope they cut him and he goes to Philly in March.

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Wow. Less than a year and a half in, and the experts have his career already over. Because no QB has had a rough start early in his career, other than those who had no career to speak of. Right, experts?

.

Name 1 QB in the last 15 years who's looked this bad over his first 2 seasons, then turned into a quality QB....

EJ Manuel is the outlier? Meh.

He's just not good. It happens.

Drew Brees did all right for himself. Stafford was brutal his first and second seasons.

That said, a lot more wash out.

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Name 1 QB in the last 15 years who's looked this bad over his first 2 seasons, then turned into a quality QB....

Alex Smith comes to mind.

As a rookie, he threw 1 TD and 11 INTs but he started to play better in his second year.

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Name 1 QB in the last 15 years who's looked this bad over his first 2 seasons, then turned into a quality QB....

Alex Smith comes to mind.

As a rookie, he threw 1 TD and 11 INTs but he started to play better in his second year.

He was also the 1st name that came to mind after I posted that. Guess we'll see. But there were a ton of skeptics on Manuel when he got drafted. Not like he has this amazing pedigree either. He was probably more of a 4th/5th rd draft pick/project in the end and became a victim of his own draft stock in a sense.

Edited by Da Gildz

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The guy is a bust simply because he was reached for in the 1st round by a team desperate for a franchise QB. He should never have been picked then. He should have been picked around the 5-7th round, as a backup.

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Wow. Less than a year and a half in, and the experts have his career already over. Because no QB has had a rough start early in his career, other than those who had no career to speak of. Right, experts?

.

Name 1 QB in the last 15 years who's looked this bad over his first 2 seasons, then turned into a quality QB....

EJ Manuel is the outlier? Meh.

He's just not good. It happens.

It doesn't fall under your most recent 15 yr limit for second year players, but check out Elway's first two years. You think the experts on down on Manuel? They were killing Elway back then. He seemed to turn out okay.

Not saying Manuel is Elway. But this early in a QB's career is way too early to make concrete judgments.

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Wow. Less than a year and a half in, and the experts have his career already over. Because no QB has had a rough start early in his career, other than those who had no career to speak of. Right, experts?

.

Name 1 QB in the last 15 years who's looked this bad over his first 2 seasons, then turned into a quality QB....

EJ Manuel is the outlier? Meh.

He's just not good. It happens.

Drew Brees did all right for himself. Stafford was brutal his first and second seasons.

That said, a lot more wash out.

But at least with those two, you saw signs that they "could and should" be. With Manuel, there are no such signs. To answer Bronco Billy's question, yes. I do believe he is done as a starting NFL quarterback. He sucks. Period. We don't need multiple years of failure to reach that conclusion. At least that's what they tell me in the Trent Richardson thread...batta boom!

Edited by georg013

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Wow. Less than a year and a half in, and the experts have his career already over. Because no QB has had a rough start early in his career, other than those who had no career to speak of. Right, experts?

.

Name 1 QB in the last 15 years who's looked this bad over his first 2 seasons, then turned into a quality QB....

EJ Manuel is the outlier? Meh.

He's just not good. It happens.

It doesn't fall under your most recent 15 yr limit for second year players, but check out Elway's first two years. You think the experts on down on Manuel? They were killing Elway back then. He seemed to turn out okay.

Not saying Manuel is Elway. But this early in a QB's career is way too early to make concrete judgments.

People aren't just basing it on what Manuel has done in the NFL. What were the experts saying about Elway while in college and during the draft process?

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Wow. Less than a year and a half in, and the experts have his career already over. Because no QB has had a rough start early in his career, other than those who had no career to speak of. Right, experts?

.

Name 1 QB in the last 15 years who's looked this bad over his first 2 seasons, then turned into a quality QB....

EJ Manuel is the outlier? Meh.

He's just not good. It happens.

Drew Brees did all right for himself. Stafford was brutal his first and second seasons.

That said, a lot more wash out.

But at least with those two, you saw signs that they "could and should" be. With Manuel, there are no such signs. To answer Bronco Billy's question, yes. I do believe he is done as a starting NFL quarterback. He sucks. Period. We don't need multiple years of failure to reach that conclusion. At least that's what they tell me in the Trent Richardson thread...batta boom!

Not true. Manuel has had some quality games in his brief career. And he has shown improvement in reading defenses and working through his progressions this year. Combine that with a good arm, quick release and a decent ability to run, you have some positives to counter-balance the major flaws in his mechanics and accuracy.

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If you're watching Manuel's games and honestly think that his accuracy is just fine, I don't know what to tell you. I just disagree strongly.

I'm not disagreeing that he needs to work on his accuracy, I only disagree about how poor his accuracy is.

The odds are against him but there are other QB's with similar starts to their careers:

        NAME 	        POS 	YRs 	        G 	CMP 	ATT 	PYD 	Y/A 	PTD 	INT 	FANT PT	Michael Vick	qb	2001--2002	23	281	534	3721	6.97	18	11	411.6	Brett Favre	qb	1991--1992	17	302	476	3227	6.78	18	15	244.2	EJ Manuel	qb	2013--2014	14	256	437	2810	6.43	16	12	234.3	Drew Brees	qb	2001--2002	17	335	553	3505	6.34	18	16	252.1	Donovan McNabb	qb	1999--2000	28	436	785	4313	5.49	29	20	441.9

You need to look beyond the raw stats. One reason that his completion percentage isn't much worse than it is is because he dinks and dunks so often- he leads the NFL in attempts, completions, and yards thrown to RBs this season, for instance.

Also, it's not just the number of times he's inaccurate, it's by how much- there's a big difference between missing by inches and missing by feet, and many times EJ isn't even close to his target. His touch is very hit or miss on passes as well.

You said that you saw Watkins have 2 drops, Williams have 2 drops, and maybe 1 more drop by Woods in the 1st half last week. Drops aren't an official stat so there's going to be discrepancy, but this site has the Bills with only 3 drops on the entire season, fewer than you saw in just the 1st half of one game. I also saw something that said that Woods is among the league leaders in targets that are uncatchable.

What you are describing is exactly what people said about McNabb.

Here's an article from week 3 of his 2nd year.

His career numbers through that week:

- 50.6% completion percentage

- 10 TD/10 INT

- 4.6 YPA

McNabb made the Pro Bowl and finished 2nd in MVP voting that year.

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If you're watching Manuel's games and honestly think that his accuracy is just fine, I don't know what to tell you. I just disagree strongly.

I'm not disagreeing that he needs to work on his accuracy, I only disagree about how poor his accuracy is.

The odds are against him but there are other QB's with similar starts to their careers:

        NAME 	        POS 	YRs 	        G 	CMP 	ATT 	PYD 	Y/A 	PTD 	INT 	FANT PT	Michael Vick	qb	2001--2002	23	281	534	3721	6.97	18	11	411.6	Brett Favre	qb	1991--1992	17	302	476	3227	6.78	18	15	244.2	EJ Manuel	qb	2013--2014	14	256	437	2810	6.43	16	12	234.3	Drew Brees	qb	2001--2002	17	335	553	3505	6.34	18	16	252.1	Donovan McNabb	qb	1999--2000	28	436	785	4313	5.49	29	20	441.9

You need to look beyond the raw stats. One reason that his completion percentage isn't much worse than it is is because he dinks and dunks so often- he leads the NFL in attempts, completions, and yards thrown to RBs this season, for instance.

Also, it's not just the number of times he's inaccurate, it's by how much- there's a big difference between missing by inches and missing by feet, and many times EJ isn't even close to his target. His touch is very hit or miss on passes as well.

You said that you saw Watkins have 2 drops, Williams have 2 drops, and maybe 1 more drop by Woods in the 1st half last week. Drops aren't an official stat so there's going to be discrepancy, but this site has the Bills with only 3 drops on the entire season, fewer than you saw in just the 1st half of one game. I also saw something that said that Woods is among the league leaders in targets that are uncatchable.

What you are describing is exactly what people said about McNabb.

Here's an article from week 3 of his 2nd year.

His career numbers through that week:

- 50.6% completion percentage

- 10 TD/10 INT

- 4.6 YPA

McNabb made the Pro Bowl and finished 2nd in MVP voting that year.

Exactly? I'm not seeing where they said he led the NFL in throwing to his RBs which is going to drastically skew his numbers, where he had a ton of drops when he really had among the fewest in the NFL, where he had poor touch on throws, or most importantly, where he's had several of the same serious fundamental flaws in college as he's displayed in the NFL.

Here's the big difference- EJ's poor performance to date wasn't a surprise for a lot of people, where it was for guys like McNabb, Brees, Elway, etc. Those guys basically just had to adapt to the NFL game (which isn't necessarily easy), where EJ had to become a much better QB as well as adapt to the NFL game.

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If you're watching Manuel's games and honestly think that his accuracy is just fine, I don't know what to tell you. I just disagree strongly.

I'm not disagreeing that he needs to work on his accuracy, I only disagree about how poor his accuracy is.

The odds are against him but there are other QB's with similar starts to their careers:

        NAME 	        POS 	YRs 	        G 	CMP 	ATT 	PYD 	Y/A 	PTD 	INT 	FANT PT	Michael Vick	qb	2001--2002	23	281	534	3721	6.97	18	11	411.6	Brett Favre	qb	1991--1992	17	302	476	3227	6.78	18	15	244.2	EJ Manuel	qb	2013--2014	14	256	437	2810	6.43	16	12	234.3	Drew Brees	qb	2001--2002	17	335	553	3505	6.34	18	16	252.1	Donovan McNabb	qb	1999--2000	28	436	785	4313	5.49	29	20	441.9

You need to look beyond the raw stats. One reason that his completion percentage isn't much worse than it is is because he dinks and dunks so often- he leads the NFL in attempts, completions, and yards thrown to RBs this season, for instance.

Also, it's not just the number of times he's inaccurate, it's by how much- there's a big difference between missing by inches and missing by feet, and many times EJ isn't even close to his target. His touch is very hit or miss on passes as well.

You said that you saw Watkins have 2 drops, Williams have 2 drops, and maybe 1 more drop by Woods in the 1st half last week. Drops aren't an official stat so there's going to be discrepancy, but this site has the Bills with only 3 drops on the entire season, fewer than you saw in just the 1st half of one game. I also saw something that said that Woods is among the league leaders in targets that are uncatchable.

What you are describing is exactly what people said about McNabb.

Here's an article from week 3 of his 2nd year.

His career numbers through that week:

- 50.6% completion percentage

- 10 TD/10 INT

- 4.6 YPA

McNabb made the Pro Bowl and finished 2nd in MVP voting that year.

Exactly? I'm not seeing where they said he led the NFL in throwing to his RBs which is going to drastically skew his numbers, where he had a ton of drops when he really had among the fewest in the NFL, where he had poor touch on throws, or most importantly, where he's had several of the same serious fundamental flaws in college as he's displayed in the NFL.

Here's the big difference- EJ's poor performance to date wasn't a surprise for a lot of people, where it was for guys like McNabb, Brees, Elway, etc. Those guys basically just had to adapt to the NFL game (which isn't necessarily easy), where EJ had to become a much better QB as well as adapt to the NFL game.

You don't think a lot of folks were using the benefit of hindsight to say "We aren't surprised McNabb is sucking, he was drafted way too high to being with..."?

Bottom line, folks asked for examples of guys that seriously turned it around, and there are some great ones. No comparison is going to be perfect.

But of course just because there are examples of some guys turning it around, there are a ton more for guys who washed out. So your opinion on HIS game may be (and probably is, just based on historical results) perfectly valid. But you are nitpicking on the examples.

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You don't think a lot of folks were using the benefit of hindsight to say "We aren't surprised McNabb is sucking, he was drafted way too high to being with..."?

Bottom line, folks asked for examples of guys that seriously turned it around, and there are some great ones. No comparison is going to be perfect.

But of course just because there are examples of some guys turning it around, there are a ton more for guys who washed out. So your opinion on HIS game may be (and probably is, just based on historical results) perfectly valid. But you are nitpicking on the examples.

That's precisely the difference- sure, plenty of people come out after the fact saying "I knew it", but I'm talking about before that. Prior to their drafts, people weren't saying that McNabb should be a 3rd-4th round pick, and they weren't saying that Elway was a project who needed to work on throwing the football, like they were with EJ.

This isn't (all) hindsight with EJ- many people have never been a fan and thought he was way over-drafted.

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You don't think a lot of folks were using the benefit of hindsight to say "We aren't surprised McNabb is sucking, he was drafted way too high to being with..."?

Bottom line, folks asked for examples of guys that seriously turned it around, and there are some great ones. No comparison is going to be perfect.

But of course just because there are examples of some guys turning it around, there are a ton more for guys who washed out. So your opinion on HIS game may be (and probably is, just based on historical results) perfectly valid. But you are nitpicking on the examples.

That's precisely the difference- sure, plenty of people come out after the fact saying "I knew it", but I'm talking about before that. Prior to their drafts, people weren't saying that McNabb should be a 3rd-4th round pick, and they weren't saying that Elway was a project who needed to work on throwing the football, like they were with EJ.

This isn't (all) hindsight with EJ- many people have never been a fan and thought he was way over-drafted.

People thought Joe Flacco and Colin Kaepernick were reaches. I don't think Kaepernick had even started a game by this point in his career.

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You don't think a lot of folks were using the benefit of hindsight to say "We aren't surprised McNabb is sucking, he was drafted way too high to being with..."?

Bottom line, folks asked for examples of guys that seriously turned it around, and there are some great ones. No comparison is going to be perfect.

But of course just because there are examples of some guys turning it around, there are a ton more for guys who washed out. So your opinion on HIS game may be (and probably is, just based on historical results) perfectly valid. But you are nitpicking on the examples.

That's precisely the difference- sure, plenty of people come out after the fact saying "I knew it", but I'm talking about before that. Prior to their drafts, people weren't saying that McNabb should be a 3rd-4th round pick, and they weren't saying that Elway was a project who needed to work on throwing the football, like they were with EJ.

This isn't (all) hindsight with EJ- many people have never been a fan and thought he was way over-drafted.

People thought Joe Flacco and Colin Kaepernick were reaches. I don't think Kaepernick had even started a game by this point in his career.

Kaepernick probably won't be starting in a couple years.

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I agree with the "consensus draft status mattering" point at least a little. Even his biggest supporters would've said his throwing needed work. But he's big and can run with a cannon, so just coach him up. Well he is as advertised as a thrower and he doesn't run ever,so ummm, what are we hoping for?

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You don't think a lot of folks were using the benefit of hindsight to say "We aren't surprised McNabb is sucking, he was drafted way too high to being with..."?

Bottom line, folks asked for examples of guys that seriously turned it around, and there are some great ones. No comparison is going to be perfect.

But of course just because there are examples of some guys turning it around, there are a ton more for guys who washed out. So your opinion on HIS game may be (and probably is, just based on historical results) perfectly valid. But you are nitpicking on the examples.

That's precisely the difference- sure, plenty of people come out after the fact saying "I knew it", but I'm talking about before that. Prior to their drafts, people weren't saying that McNabb should be a 3rd-4th round pick, and they weren't saying that Elway was a project who needed to work on throwing the football, like they were with EJ.

This isn't (all) hindsight with EJ- many people have never been a fan and thought he was way over-drafted.

People thought Joe Flacco and Colin Kaepernick were reaches. I don't think Kaepernick had even started a game by this point in his career.

I'm not sure what your point is.

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Wow. Less than a year and a half in, and the experts have his career already over. Because no QB has had a rough start early in his career, other than those who had no career to speak of. Right, experts?

.

Name 1 QB in the last 15 years who's looked this bad over his first 2 seasons, then turned into a quality QB....

Brees, McNabb, and Stafford off the top of my head.

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The training camp reports on Aaron Rodgers in his first two years were less than stellar. I still don't know if he was really bad or just bad in comparison to Favre. At that time Favre couldn't do much wrong in most reporters eyes.

Edited by Donnybrook

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You don't think a lot of folks were using the benefit of hindsight to say "We aren't surprised McNabb is sucking, he was drafted way too high to being with..."?

Bottom line, folks asked for examples of guys that seriously turned it around, and there are some great ones. No comparison is going to be perfect.

But of course just because there are examples of some guys turning it around, there are a ton more for guys who washed out. So your opinion on HIS game may be (and probably is, just based on historical results) perfectly valid. But you are nitpicking on the examples.

That's precisely the difference- sure, plenty of people come out after the fact saying "I knew it", but I'm talking about before that. Prior to their drafts, people weren't saying that McNabb should be a 3rd-4th round pick, and they weren't saying that Elway was a project who needed to work on throwing the football, like they were with EJ.

This isn't (all) hindsight with EJ- many people have never been a fan and thought he was way over-drafted.

Has it been so long that you guys don't remember the McNabb/Kordell Stewart comparisons?

Here is the 1999 draft scouting report on McNabb:

Played in a freeze-option offense, which means he faced mostly man-on-man coverage and did not have to do that much reading of defenses.

Generally, when he did have to read defenses, he just had to read half the field.

Can still be a streaky and erratic passer.

Needs work on his drop-back techniques.

Still must improve timing, touch and anticipation of receiver.

Tends to hold on to the ball too long and must learn when to unload.

Gets sloppy with the ball at times and is very sloppy when he comes up under center to handle the exchange, leading to unnecessary fumbles.

Played in a domed stadium in college and has not had to play in a lot of bad weather.

Needs to work on his deep passing.

May not be tough enough with his teammates and may be too nice of a guy.

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What if Orton completely sucks as well. Do they give Manuel another shot?

Probably. But he likely won't completely suck. Most likely he'll be competent but he's not the future. EJ will probably get the job back by the end of the year if he plays well in practice and the bills aren't making the playoffs.

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You don't think a lot of folks were using the benefit of hindsight to say "We aren't surprised McNabb is sucking, he was drafted way too high to being with..."?

Bottom line, folks asked for examples of guys that seriously turned it around, and there are some great ones. No comparison is going to be perfect.

But of course just because there are examples of some guys turning it around, there are a ton more for guys who washed out. So your opinion on HIS game may be (and probably is, just based on historical results) perfectly valid. But you are nitpicking on the examples.

That's precisely the difference- sure, plenty of people come out after the fact saying "I knew it", but I'm talking about before that. Prior to their drafts, people weren't saying that McNabb should be a 3rd-4th round pick, and they weren't saying that Elway was a project who needed to work on throwing the football, like they were with EJ.

This isn't (all) hindsight with EJ- many people have never been a fan and thought he was way over-drafted.

Has it been so long that you guys don't remember the McNabb/Kordell Stewart comparisons?

Here is the 1999 draft scouting report on McNabb:

Played in a freeze-option offense, which means he faced mostly man-on-man coverage and did not have to do that much reading of defenses.

Generally, when he did have to read defenses, he just had to read half the field.

Can still be a streaky and erratic passer.

Needs work on his drop-back techniques.

Still must improve timing, touch and anticipation of receiver.

Tends to hold on to the ball too long and must learn when to unload.

Gets sloppy with the ball at times and is very sloppy when he comes up under center to handle the exchange, leading to unnecessary fumbles.

Played in a domed stadium in college and has not had to play in a lot of bad weather.

Needs to work on his deep passing.

May not be tough enough with his teammates and may be too nice of a guy.

How does that contradict what I'm saying? I didn't say McNabb didn't have flaws or didn't face criticism, everyone does. Where does it say that he was considered a project QB and should be drafted in the 3rd-4th round? People had Manuel ranked behind Barkley and/or Nassib, who both went in the 4th round. Some even had him ranked behind Dysert, who went in the 7th round. The point is, McNabb was clearly considered the better prospect coming out.

No offense, but you said you re-watched the last game and saw 4 and possibly a 5th drop by Buffalo WRs in the 1st half alone. Considering they have been credited with a grand total of 3 drops for the entire season, it's pretty obvious you aren't seeing the same things that everyone else is.

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No offense, but you said you re-watched the last game and saw 4 and possibly a 5th drop by Buffalo WRs in the 1st half alone. Considering they have been credited with a grand total of 3 drops for the entire season, it's pretty obvious you aren't seeing the same things that everyone else is.

- Q1 14:25 - Watkins drops a pass that hits him right the hands

- Q1 5:41 - Watkins drops another pass right in his hands

- Q2 11:45 - I called this a drop by Williams but the DB did get an arm in to knock it loose

- Q2 3:43 - Ball bounces off Woods' right shoulder

There's zero question about the two Watkins drops in my mind.

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Why are we arguing over EJ Manuel? :shrug:

Anyway, I just thought I'd add this.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000404083/article/watkins-sees-differences-between-orton-and-manuel

Reading between the lines, it seems like the WRs were getting pretty frustrated with Manuel.

Thank you for this. I think it's pretty clear Watkins and Company were fed up with Manuel's poor play. Fred Jackson wasn't. He was on pace for 200 receptions with Manuel in at QB. A rookie like Watkins needs veteran leadership in the huddle. Not a project quarterback with a deer in headlights mentality. I'm hoping Orton keeps the seat warm for two seasons until a real franchise quarterback comes to town.

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No offense, but you said you re-watched the last game and saw 4 and possibly a 5th drop by Buffalo WRs in the 1st half alone. Considering they have been credited with a grand total of 3 drops for the entire season, it's pretty obvious you aren't seeing the same things that everyone else is.

I hate to defend EJ, but I distinctly remember two by Watkins and one by Woods early in the game, so 4 or 5 total might be accurate.

Edited by Grigs Allmoon

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