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QB Marcus Mariota, WAS (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Touchdown Syndrome
Footballguy
Agreed.He's more likely to fall out of the top 5 than to go to TB #1.Capella said:
Todd McShay just brought out that Mariota is asked to make less than half of the NFL-type throws that winston is asked to make. When he does, he makes those throws with far less accuracy.
McShay's basic analysis was Mariota checks every box and is everything you'd want as an NFL prospect....except for the most important box, which is handling and passing from the pocket.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
We already knew all of these things. People keep repeating them.
If he shows off enough of the arm at the combine, in workouts, at his pro day, blows away teams during interviews, measures at 6'4 230, and then runs a 4.5 scouts will forget about the system he played in.
If he shows off enough of the arm at the combine, in workouts, at his pro day, blows away teams during interviews, measures at 6'4 230, and then runs a 4.5 scouts will forget about the system he played in.
ROYALWITCHEESE
Footballguy
Garbage. 3-4th round pick based on last night.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
he needs to go somehwere and sit, unless Chip gets him somehow.
FUBAR
Footballguy
we were wondering how far he falls before Chip convinces his GM to go get him.
Quez
Footballguy
Grahamburn
Footballguy
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
with the way people are talking about him, maybe he slides down into the teens anyway, and Philly can draft him
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
jurb26
Footballguy
I agree they don't matter that much. Sure they matter, but the actual game film matters a lot more.
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bigmarc27
Footballguy
I'm pro Mariota, but I don't think there's anyway he blows them away in the interviews. The guy is an awkward turtle. If he were to get into a huddle with a Dez Bryant or Steve Smith, they would eat his lunch. Watching that interview with Tebow before the game last night was painful.
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mr roboto
Footballguy
Wait so pro days and combines are meaningless? Why wouldn't they use data gathered at both pro day and combine to make their decision?
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
You know how theres that guy who falls every year in the draft? This is him.
massraider
Footballguy
I don't think Mariota's performance at the combine is going to affect anything. They know he can run.
His pro day may actually matter because it might be the only chance some coaches get to see him throw a deep out.
ShaHBucks
Footballguy
I advise him to skip the drills. I don't think he's all that fast/agile in NFL terms. Could be like Johnny Football.
Shutout
Footballguy
Does GM Chip get fired if he doesn't get the player Coach Chip wants?
Does Coach Chip get fired if GM Chip gets him the player and it is a bust?
Does Owner Jeff Leery give the team to CM Chip and Coach Chip if they get the player and win the Super Bowl?
Grahamburn
Footballguy
He's dropping like a stone all of a sudden after two games in the national spotlight. Maybe he'll go back to school?
Both QB's are him. It's a bad year for QB's and a strong year in the trenches. A couple teams are going to make terrible choices on a year when most teams around them are making really easy, safe decisions that improve their chances immediately.The drama will be in waiting to see which ones the bone heads are.
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Snotbubbles
Footballguy
If Mariota is there at 20, I would be ok with Chip taking a shot. I mean, he can't be worse than Marcus Smith. Can he?
Quez
Footballguy
Not for all the players, but I'm sure there are plenty of times where teams boards are unchanged by a pro day. It may be more important for mid-round guys who may not have as much tape.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
lynx4ben
Footballguy
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
2 years ago for Geno
Last year it was Manziel
Marriota needs to go somewhere and sit for at least 1 season IMO
Faust
MVP
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Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Not sure I'm following you. Drafting Mariota at 20 sets the franchise back as much as drafting Marcus Smith last year in about the same spot.
Hang 10
Footballguy
No.
When you draft a QB anywhere in the first, you have to give him time. You have to be patient while he struggles and loses winnable games. You might even do that for 2 to 3 years.
Insein
Footballguy
Exactly. Marcus Smith could be cut this year and no one would put up much of a fuss except to say you f'd that up.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
Chip Kelly doesn't do things that way. Best players play. He's not going to put Mariota out there if he's not the best option for the purpose of developing him.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
?
He is not picking a QB in the first round and with no intentions of playing him. After that pick is made what do you expect Foles to do? At most he stays a year and after that you would have Marriota and maybe Barkley....? QB isn't like other positions
How often has a linebacker won the Superbowl?
Look at the four quarterbacks in the playoffs right now, Luck, Rodgers, Brady and Wilson.
With very few exceptions, you need an elite QB to win the Superbowl.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
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cstu
Footballguy
Dropping by who? Media pundits? Fans?
Mariota lost his big play receiver for the game and his team's defense only made the Buckeyes punt 3 times.
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Lbers win the SB every year
And you do not need an elite QB to win a SB and we're a long ways from Marriota being elite anyway.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Regular Football Guy contributor Cian Fahey just put out a piece evaluating Marcus Mariota's NFL potential.
Go to the link for the full read and photos showcasing some fine points of his game.
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/51587/349/cians-corner-marcus-mariota
Go to the link for the full read and photos showcasing some fine points of his game.
http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/51587/349/cians-corner-marcus-mariota
Cian's Corner: Marcus MariotaTuesday, January 13, 2015
... Respected analyst Greg Cosell chimed in despite acknowledging that he hadn't studied film on Mariota. Cosell suggested that Mariota could be the best of the recent mobile quarterbacks, but also seemed to intimate that he thought Mariota was more of a system quarterback and not someone who should be taken by the Tennessee Titans to displace Zach Mettenberger, a player who has done very little in his short career to this point.
Bleacher Report's Matt Miller recently elevated Jameis Winston above Mariota on his prospect rankings, citing a potentially tough transition to the NFL for Mariota and pointing out that Winston is more pro-ready. ESPN's Trent Dilfer said similarly, “I personally don't think Marcus is a pro-ready quarterback. I don't think he's a guy who's ready to play right away. I think he's a guy who has to sit for a year or two and learn an NFL system.” Dilfer also said that he isn't sure Mariota is a top five pick, saying “I think there's a chance he may slide a little bit as this goes.”
...Before the season, Mariota showed off very impressive pocket presence and the ability to go through his progression sideline-to-sideline from within the pocket. His quick release and velocity to short and intermediate routes also stood out. His physical attributes were less significant, but still very impressive. Mariota's greatest concern was his accuracy because he couldn't consistently hit his receivers in stride when they were in space. He was still accurate, but not exceptionally accurate.
...Unlike Colin Kaepernick, a player who Mariota is regularly compared with, his instinct isn't to run out of clean pockets when he doesn't have an obvious receiving option early in the play.
...Entering the National Championship game, it was Mariota's accuracy that really needed to be put under the microscope.
During the first half of this game, Mariota was exceptionally accurate. He hadn't missed a throw over the first three drives of the game and his first miss of the game was arguably a result of a pass interference penalty that should have been called. Mariota was throwing the ball down the field, not on every play, but he was making difficult throws and fitting the ball into his receivers before defensive backs could close on the ball.
Most significantly, Mariota was showing good pocket presence while consistently finding the open receiver by going through his progressions.
Mariota threw just two passes in the third quarter. One was a huge touchdown pass when he located a wide open receiver down the seam, the other was an accurate pass into the back of the end zone that was well defended by Ohio State. The Oregon quarterback followed that up with an impressive throw over the middle of the field after hanging in the pocket under pressure, but was almost intercepted by a linebacker when he tried to fit the ball past him over the middle of the field on the next play.
Late in the fourth quarter, Mariota missed a receiver from the pocket on 4th-and-10, but had connected on a couple of tighter throws to either sideline before then. One was negated by a holding penalty, while the other was dropped by his receiver. He was intercepted on a hail mary at the end of the game that wasn't included on the above chart.
Drops were a major issue for Oregon throughout this game. Mariota proved to be very accurate while throwing the ball down the field, but his receivers let him down too often. That wasn't a major surprise considering his receiving class was depleted. Those drops don't affect the above charts though, as they only considered accurate versus inaccurate passes.
Mariota is a very talented quarterback prospect. He's not perfect, but no prospect is. In recent weeks, it's become too easy to box him in or become hyper-critical of him because of the offense he plays in.
He may fail in the NFL, but the idea that his scheme has prevented him from managing pockets, from making NFL throws or from reading coverages feels fraudulent. It feels like an easy excuse that doesn't deal with the specifics of what he does on the field.
Terms have taken over the draft process for quarterback prospects.
It's not really a surprise, because terms have taken over the NFL too. Instead of specific analysis and evaluation, NFL quarterbacks are judged by how many wins their team gets in a season or how many Super Bowls they win over their careers. Hence the birth of the 'Winner' term. The 'Winner' term only comes after the first few years of a player's career, because the first few years exist so we can figure out if the player is a 'Franchise Quarterback' or not. You know, a 'Franchise Quarterback' such as Aaron Rodgers and Andy Dalton.
Aaron Rodgers and Andy Dalton. Both are franchise quarterbacks because their teams have invested in them, yet neither shares any similarities in terms of their respective skill sets.
'Franchise Quarterback' is a term that comes up during the draft process, it's something that haunted Teddy Bridgewater's process last year. However, it's also joined by brothers 'System Quarterback' and 'Pro-Ready Quarterback'. Each of these terms are as informative and as valuable as the other. By that I mean none of them carry any value at all.
'System Quarterback' is a term that is applied to quarterbacks who don't play in college offenses that resemble your traditional professional offenses. Although these systems can bloat the statistics of an individual quarterback, they can't alter the individual skill set of that player. They can make the evaluation tougher, but ultimately calling a player a system quarterback is foolish because you can still separate that player from his system.
Furthermore, there is no clear standard for what constitutes an NFL system. NFL offenses are constantly changing and many, many starting quarterbacks in the league don't run their respective systems well. Every starting quarterback in the NFL comes with strengths and weaknesses. Every single player will do better in some systems/situations over others. If you ask Peyton Manning to throw the ball deep down the field or run the ball all the time, he will be a terrible quarterback. Yet, nobody is going to call him a 'System Quarterback'.
'System Quarterback' is a lazy way of suggesting a player can't read NFL defenses while mitigating pressure in the pocket and it implies that he will never be able to. On the other hand 'Pro-Ready Quarterback' is a term given to players who have shown the ability to mitigate pressure in the pocket while playing in a system that is similar to most in the NFL.
Quarterbacks who aren't worthy of the 'Pro-Ready Quarterback' tag are expected to sit for their first year or two in the NFL. This strategy appears to be extinct in today's NFL. The problem with this term is that there is no established standard that a quarterback needs to meet to be considered pro-ready. Take Derek Carr for example. Carr played in a very quarterback-friendly offense as a rookie as his coaching staff did a huge amount to protect him. His statistics reflected this, so does that mean he was pro-ready?
Meanwhile, Peyton Manning threw 28 interceptions as a rookie, so he clearly wasn't pro-ready?
NFL teams shouldn't draft quarterbacks because of what they can do during their first season. They especially shouldn't when they're determining if a player is pro-ready based solely on his mental acumen and ability in the pocket. As Blake Bortles can attest to, sometimes major accuracy issues can be just as big of an anchor for a rookie season than the ability to read NFL coverages from the pocket. Bortles wasn't ready to be a good NFL starter, but that won't matter to the Jaguars if he develops into one over the coming years.
This year's draft class has one obvious candidate for the common quarterback terms.
For a while, Oregon starting quarterback Marcus Mariota was almost untouchable as a top prospect. Before he decided to return to school for the 2014 season, seemingly an overwhelming majority of national draft analysts had Mariota as their top quarterback for the 2014 draft. In college this year, he won the Heisman trophy while continuing to be exceptionally productive and efficient. While those things mean nothing for his evaluation as an NFL prospect, there didn't appear to be obvious differences between Mariota this season and the year before.
Maybe it's just a result of the constant coverage or new analysis from those who primarily focus on the NFL during the regular season, but in recent weeks Mariota's metaphorical stock has taken some hits.
Respected analyst Greg Cosell chimed in despite acknowledging that he hadn't studied film on Mariota. Cosell suggested that Mariota could be the best of the recent mobile quarterbacks, but also seemed to intimate that he thought Mariota was more of a system quarterback and not someone who should be taken by the Tennessee Titans to displace Zach Mettenberger, a player who has done very little in his short career to this point.
Bleacher Report's Matt Miller recently elevated Jameis Winston above Mariota on his prospect rankings, citing a potentially tough transition to the NFL for Mariota and pointing out that Winston is more pro-ready. ESPN's Trent Dilfer said similarly, “I personally don't think Marcus is a pro-ready quarterback. I don't think he's a guy who's ready to play right away. I think he's a guy who has to sit for a year or two and learn an NFL system.” Dilfer also said that he isn't sure Mariota is a top five pick, saying “I think there's a chance he may slide a little bit as this goes.”
While there are some vague comments in there, the overall suggestion appears to indicate that Mariota is a quarterback who won't be able to read NFL defenses early in his career and is somewhat reliant on his legs to be effective. These are being presented as negatives, but if you're selecting a quarterback for the long term, they really shouldn't be.
Mariota and Winston are going to be coupled together forever because of this draft. Winston can avoid the 'System Quarterback' and 'Pro-Ready Quarterback' labels because of the offense he plays in, but he also had significant, recurring issues while trying to run that offense this season. Issues that led to too many turnovers. That's not to suggest that Winston won't be able to improve and run that kind of offense in the NFL, but it does highlight how vague these terms can be.
As with all NFL prospects, the most important evaluation of Mariota is of his specific skill set on the field.
Before the season, Mariota showed off very impressive pocket presence and the ability to go through his progression sideline-to-sideline from within the pocket. His quick release and velocity to short and intermediate routes also stood out. His physical attributes were less significant, but still very impressive. Mariota's greatest concern was his accuracy because he couldn't consistently hit his receivers in stride when they were in space. He was still accurate, but not exceptionally accurate.
Mariota had two nationally televised games to show off his skill set at the end of this season. The first against Florida State and the second against Ohio State.
vs. Florida State
Mariota opened the game with two screen passes that set up a third-and-eight. Predictably, Oregon spread the field and FSU responded with a light defensive front. Importantly, the defense sends a fourth rusher from the second level after the quarterback at the snap and he is followed through the middle of the offensive line by a delayed rusher from the other side of the field.
The blitz doesn't affect Mariota's eye level. He immediately looks to his left where he has two receivers releasing into their routes. One of those receivers is a tight end who releases behind the initial pass rusher, but he is covered by another linebacker who is just outside of the frame of the above image.
Mariota doesn't locate an open receiver to his left. Instead, he is forced to hold onto the football and wait in the pocket before bringing his eyes across to the other side of the field. Mariota's pass protection picks up the blitz and holds it for a moment. While they do that, Mariota subtly bounces backwards slightly so that he gives himself more time in the pocket if his blocking begins to break down. This means by the time he releases the football, he is doing so while untouched.
{C}This play didn't ask Mariota to move within the pocket and heavily adjust to avoid pressure, but it did show off his poise and willingness to hold the football in the pocket. Unlike Colin Kaepernick, a player who Mariota is regularly compared with, his instinct isn't to run out of clean pockets when he doesn't have an obvious receiving option early in the play.
Although he locates a wide open receiver and successfully drops the ball over the underneath coverage to get the football to that area, Mariota's accuracy lets him down. He overthrows his intended target. This was a bad miss from the quarterback and a reminder of his consistently evident accuracy concerns.
However, the poor throw should still be separated from his poise and patience in the pocket. On his very next pass attempt, Mariota was able to complete a pass to a similar area of the field.
On this occasion, the quarterback doesn't have to hold the ball in the pocket for long to find an open receiver down the field. He catches the ball from the shotgun before dropping back two steps. At the top of his drop, he steps forward before releasing the ball in rhythm towards his tight end. Mariota arced the football but he didn't need to drop it over the underneath coverage on this occasion. He hit his target in stride for a first down.
Athleticism can be a polarizing part of a quarterback's skill set. Mariota's athleticism will inevitably be a talking point through the draft process because he is a phenomenal athlete. However, more importantly, he can throw the ball on the run and is willing to consistently keep his eyes downfield while outside of the pocket.
This second-and-eight play afforded Mariota an opportunity to show off his ability to throw the ball on the move. The Oregon offensive line hesitates for a moment before cutting the defensive line. At the same time, Mariota pump fakes a pass while looking at his tight end releasing into the seam. His tight end is well covered, but this appears to be a designed run out to the right side either way. This is evident by the movement of the running back next to Mariota. That running back holds his position for an unnatural length of time before breaking with Mariota into the right flat.
Mariota's mechanics aren't good as he releases the football with both feet in the air. However, he shows off the arm strength and accuracy to locate his receiver running a crossing route for a first down. This was a showcase of Mariota's impressive arm talent on intermediate depth throws. He may not have a huge arm, but he can control the trajectory and accelerate the velocity of his shorter passes to make important plays on a regular basis.
In this game, Mariota showed off various aspects of his skill set both inside and outside of the pocket. However, the lasting concern was once again his accuracy.
Mariota wasn't regularly missing receivers to the point that they had no chance of making a play on the football, but he was slightly off too often. He had one terrible decision in the game when he threw the ball back across his body after running into the flat. That pass should have been intercepted but it was dropped by an FSU defensive back instead. Mariota also made a number of very impressive throws and showed off the value of his athleticism on a regular basis.
Entering the National Championship game, it was Mariota's accuracy that really needed to be put under the microscope.
vs. Ohio State
During the first half of this game, Mariota was exceptionally accurate. He hadn't missed a throw over the first three drives of the game and his first miss of the game was arguably a result of a pass interference penalty that should have been called. Mariota was throwing the ball down the field, not on every play, but he was making difficult throws and fitting the ball into his receivers before defensive backs could close on the ball.
Most significantly, Mariota was showing good pocket presence while consistently finding the open receiver by going through his progressions.
Mariota threw just two passes in the third quarter. One was a huge touchdown pass when he located a wide open receiver down the seam, the other was an accurate pass into the back of the end zone that was well defended by Ohio State. The Oregon quarterback followed that up with an impressive throw over the middle of the field after hanging in the pocket under pressure, but was almost intercepted by a linebacker when he tried to fit the ball past him over the middle of the field on the next play.
Late in the fourth quarter, Mariota missed a receiver from the pocket on 4th-and-10, but had connected on a couple of tighter throws to either sideline before then. One was negated by a holding penalty, while the other was dropped by his receiver. He was intercepted on a hail mary at the end of the game that wasn't included on the above chart.
Drops were a major issue for Oregon throughout this game. Mariota proved to be very accurate while throwing the ball down the field, but his receivers let him down too often. That wasn't a major surprise considering his receiving class was depleted. Those drops don't affect the above charts though, as they only considered accurate versus inaccurate passes.
Mariota is a very talented quarterback prospect. He's not perfect, but no prospect is. In recent weeks, it's become too easy to box him in or become hyper-critical of him because of the offense he plays in.
He may fail in the NFL, but the idea that his scheme has prevented him from managing pockets, from making NFL throws or from reading coverages feels fraudulent. It feels like an easy excuse that doesn't deal with the specifics of what he does on the field.
Clifford
Footballguy
Pro-ready...probably not a more damning term in all of football. Recent pro-ready QBs are Blaine Gabbert, Jimmy Clausen, Brady Quinn, Blake Bortles, Jake Locker, Matt Barkley, etc.
Honestly other than Andrew Luck, what high pick has worked out at the QB position? Looking at rounds 1 and 2 only
Starting in 2013
1. EJ Manuel - Bust
2. Geno Smith - Bust
2012
1. Luck - Stud
1. RG3 - BUst
1. Tannehill - Decent
1. Weeden - Bust
2. Osweiler - Jury out
2011
1.Newton - Decent
1. Locker - Bust
1. Gabbert - Bust
1. Ponder - Bust
2. Dalton - Decent
2. Kaep - Decent
2010
1. Bradford - Decent when healthy
1. Tebow - Bust
2. Clausen - Bust
2009:
1. Stafford - Stud
1. Sanchez - Bust
1. Freeman - Bust
2. Pat White - Bust
Five drafts worth of 1st and 2nd round QBs, and we have only 2 studs (and I'm being a bit charitable with Stafford there), 5 decent QBs, and 12 busts.
Yikes.
Honestly other than Andrew Luck, what high pick has worked out at the QB position? Looking at rounds 1 and 2 only
Starting in 2013
1. EJ Manuel - Bust
2. Geno Smith - Bust
2012
1. Luck - Stud
1. RG3 - BUst
1. Tannehill - Decent
1. Weeden - Bust
2. Osweiler - Jury out
2011
1.Newton - Decent
1. Locker - Bust
1. Gabbert - Bust
1. Ponder - Bust
2. Dalton - Decent
2. Kaep - Decent
2010
1. Bradford - Decent when healthy
1. Tebow - Bust
2. Clausen - Bust
2009:
1. Stafford - Stud
1. Sanchez - Bust
1. Freeman - Bust
2. Pat White - Bust
Five drafts worth of 1st and 2nd round QBs, and we have only 2 studs (and I'm being a bit charitable with Stafford there), 5 decent QBs, and 12 busts.
Yikes.
I think people look too much for the stud qb...in the last decade out of all the qbs you have legitimately what 5-6 qb studs. You have to plan to live with a pretty good qb and build around him (i.e. Flacco)
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Anyway you cut it if your qb isn't actively losing you games you are already better than half the league
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
@caplannfl: How much would it cost Eagles to trade up for Marcus Mariota? Bill Polian sets the price http://t.co/cwcaJrpSJk
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
Quez
Footballguy
I wonder what weight he will come in at the combine. Recently his weight is being reported at 219, but this says 195, but could be old. http://247sports.com/Player/Marcus-Mariota-7219
Most likely he tries to pack on as much weight as he can before his weigh in at the combine. He probably won't run or throw though until he sheds the weight back off before his proday.
Most likely he tries to pack on as much weight as he can before his weigh in at the combine. He probably won't run or throw though until he sheds the weight back off before his proday.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
If the Eagles are trading up to #1 overall the price wouldn't change regardless of how other teams perceive Mariota.fruity pebbles said:
