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Dynasty & Redraft: QB Marcus Mariota, Titans

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On 1/4/2019 at 11:59 AM, Bri said:

Trying my best to relay this, not perfect quoting but...

Jimmy Johnson was on the radio going off about how teams should only develop one QB at a time. He said people don't think about the in-season work that's put in. A young quarterback has to have contributors to the meeting room and to practices and maybe even the game plan. When there is more than one, team's are not discussing the finer points of the game in meetings and he wonders if there even is a capable QB testing the defense during the week.

After a bit, the host brought up Mariota and LaFleur and their struggles

He said, you want to fix that team? Sign two quarterbacks that are 36 37 years old. They will contribute in meetings and help him out (development) and they won't be quiet if the offense isn't performing well. They'll bring ideas.

what about if they have to play?

There's never a bad time to put a real field general on the field. If you think back to the classic QB, he's pointing before the snap, communicating....he's getting everyone in line to do things the right way. They might lose a game but they'll be better off the next week because he's been correcting players all game long. 

Just plan on losing a game?

There isn't a coach in this league that can't gameplan for a savvy old QB. Their problem usually is asking the old guy to do what the young guy does and that won't happen. You got plays in your playbook that suit him, hopefully a running game, you can make it work. 

Many have the Titans drafting a QB plus they had two veterans this year in Davis and Gabbert?

How well do those two know the game? Journeymen aren't always taught. You gotta be careful with them. They could travel team to team and just pick up the basics. I don't know those two but from here it looks like they aren't the type I'm looking for.

Draft?

No. Might as well trade Mariota then. If you're gonna have your QB coach teaching the offense to the rookie that means the coordinator is running around to the other 11 on the field and that's not enough time for Marcus. 

Wow, I bet titans fans won't want to hear that

Ya know one more thing, let me put it another way. Gil Brandt pointed something out to me years ago. Not in drills but 11 on 11, when they're on the field, where are the backup QBs? That will tell you everything. Teams with the veteran QBs have them standing in the backfield discussing, teams with projects have them on the sidelines. Which is better for the starter? It's like a braintrust and it's empowering.

How does Vrabel do it? Do you know?

All the videos I saw had him behind the offense. That tells me he doesn't have that braintrust. I know where he comes from. Ever watch Brady in practice? He turns to the backup and comments on a play, backup is pointing...there's discussion. Why have Jimmy G and Cassel and so many QBs left the Patriots to perform well? They learned. Go to a Patriots practice, Belichick might be back there, McDaniels, there could be 7-8 guys. And another thing, that's the view. That's the look you want. Every coach would be on the field if they could, not on the sideline. See what he's seeing, discuss it.

Did you change things after hearing from Brandt?

Right away. Some of the best advice I ever got. That's even where I go when I want to talk to a team. I'm not standing on the sideline unless they make me. If the network sends me to get a background on a team, I want that view. 

Do they?

Not really. I kind of miss it.

Now Mariota's backups are the excuse?

I admit, this is the first time I have seen this one used.

Edited by matuski

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On 1/5/2019 at 8:32 AM, Bri said:

I thought of that too. Didn't they get rid of Walsh and bring Wade Wilson in?

Deadpool?

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10 hours ago, matuski said:

Now Mariota's backups are the excuse?

I admit, this is the first time I have seen this one used.

I'm not defending Marcus every time you feel the need to bash him. You read what you want and take it as a cue to bash him, not the entire thread or other posts or anything of the sort. I'm not going back and reiterating because you're too lazy to read or just plain don't want to because it's a MB. I can understand the latter method but that doesn't mean I'm replying.

MM8 is a great person with an excellent "yes coach" mindset. There IS a problem with his development so we discuss it. 

There is no way to go back in time and re-develop Sam Bradford but he is, and probably always will be, the prototype for a rookie QB. "What went wrong" made for interesting discussions. Bradford has now fizzled and his career could be over. Mariota is at a mid-point (if comparing to Bradford) of his career and many of us are hopeful that this or that will happen for MM8 to succeed.

Mariota getting 400 yards one week is something. Best ever TD to INT ratio in the red zone is significant. Fourth quarter/comeback wins stats are excellent. Only failing once on "and 1s" is probably best ever. When he outruns a D for 80 yards, how many QBs can do that? Although you criticize his arm, I bet he's one of maybe ten starters that can throw deep across the field from one sideline to the other while running.

His ad-libbing while on the run is as good as all the famous college QBs, but does that work in the NFL? Should they have spent more time thinking "college offense" rather than what he's had? 

What he's had is a 3TE offense and a first year OC offense. No QB is racking up big yardage in a 3 TE offense and most first year OCs probably struggle.

He's had more failed high draft pick WRs than any QB I can think of(Wright, Hunter, DGB). Whether you want speed, size, ups, quickness...those three offered tremendous athletic traits and were lauded by many but they didn't pan out. WR coach was fired, amongst others. What can ya do? That's part of the NFL life too. 

Matthews is treated poorly then quits. Delanie gets hurts. Those were his guys- both of which were top 5 and top 10 on third down recently which does denote some excellent play by Marcus at crucial times. Which NFL QB rocks when they lose their top two targets?

Other than them, the WRs he's had have not reached a point where they're predictably very good or they were just journeymen.

More coaches and OCs than anyone except Bradford and probably right in line with Bradford. Titans GM JRob just likened learning a new offense to learning a new foreign language, so the Titans have spent more time(analogy) teaching Marcus to be a translator than to be a quarterback.

Bradford and Marcus are good soldiers that do whatever the coach asks. There is a different game on the field than just Xs and Os. Marcus has been outstanding at audibling and changing plays at the line of scrimmage but he's also had two OCs that took this ability away from him after he did so well. We assume their ego was hurt. This, however, is part of becoming a star- he must take the Xs and Os, the coaches thoughts, and add his own on the field. Taking audibles away though seems to make him revert to the good soldier mindset and that's not good for him, nor does it suit his athleticism. 

LaFleur was not good with Griffin or Manziel. He (and McVay and Shanny) was not good at teaching when to adlib when to be a good soldier, how to distinguish. It's not surprising that Mariota struggled. To say Griffin was overrated or Manziel never had it would ignore Griffin's rookie year or Manziels preseason and good moments as a rookie. There are garbage QBs in the NFL that come into games and I know the team is about to lose. They offer no hope. Manziel's nerve and feet would be better than so many of those guys. When I saw Griffin play this past summer, he looked like Bledsoe. What did they do to him? He had such legs and the guy was a statue. On the other side, there are guys like Russel Wilson (many QBs) that have the freedom to roll and buy some time. Marcus doesn't usually have that and when he does, he's in good boy mode staying in the pocket. Mularkey used to say things like "we told him he could move around" and Mularkey thought it'd be turning this ability on and off like a switch. Yes this week, no this week. They've completely botched Marcus' athleticism being an advantage.  

Sacks. Conklin changed things and Marcus got time for two years. His rookie year and this past year, he got shellacked like sooo many QBs that haven't panned out. I'll never forget watching David Carr at Giants camp. Beautiful throws, such an arm in drills and non-contact practice. When they went live, he looked like a chick yelling "ahhhh" and running away from something. The Ravens sacked Marcus 12 times in one game this year. How does that affect him? When is the point that too many sacks causes fear in QBs? Robiske had plays where the RB was to pickup a DT or DE. Since that's stupid, Marcus got hit so hard many times. What's it like to call a play knowing a 5-10 200 pound guy is to block a 310 pound beast? 

Mularkey's clever idea was to dust off a 1960s offense and have the Titans run it. The WRs were like splitends in high school, lined up where you'd expect an H-back. Guess who they had to chip/tap before going out for a route? Yep the DEs. Not only would the routes all largely be in the center of the field, but the DE was "free" after this chip. A RB was available to block one of the free DEs. 

Per one site re timing, Marcus threw 27 snap n throws this year. The Rams offense was built to be based off this with Goff throwing immediately, almost exclusively, his first so many games. Why did LaFleur change that? 

Marcus has the least throwaways of any starter this year. The most sacks in losing or tied games. That seems to be on him. Live to play another play. However, he did this his first three years so why isn't he throwing it away with the new staff? What'd they tell this good soldier?  

No one would disagree that Whisenhunt was awful ( Leinart had fascinating things to say after Whis was fired) or that a 3 TE offense or 1960s offense isn't suited to great QB stats. Learn the game from Weeden, Gabbert, Davis, Fitz, Mett...aside from Cassel no one would be like "yes, I'm glad my team added that guy" (maybe Fitz now, but his whole career I mean)and that sentiment matches the Titans coaches he's had. Do you see Whis or Mularkey filling the current openings? Fans clamoring for them to be hired?

There is a definite disconnect between what is Marcus' fault and what isn't.  It would be fantastic to be in here discussing how Mike Shanahan or Mike McCarthy are teaching him XYZ. That hasn't been the case though

There ya go, now I'm done replying to your bashing. Drink it in, or don't. That's where fans are at with MM8. 

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1 hour ago, Bri said:

I'm not defending Marcus every time you feel the need to bash him. You read what you want and take it as a cue to bash him, not the entire thread or other posts or anything of the sort. I'm not going back and reiterating because you're too lazy to read or just plain don't want to because it's a MB. I can understand the latter method but that doesn't mean I'm replying.

MM8 is a great person with an excellent "yes coach" mindset. There IS a problem with his development so we discuss it. 

There is no way to go back in time and re-develop Sam Bradford but he is, and probably always will be, the prototype for a rookie QB. "What went wrong" made for interesting discussions. Bradford has now fizzled and his career could be over. Mariota is at a mid-point (if comparing to Bradford) of his career and many of us are hopeful that this or that will happen for MM8 to succeed.

Mariota getting 400 yards one week is something. Best ever TD to INT ratio in the red zone is significant. Fourth quarter/comeback wins stats are excellent. Only failing once on "and 1s" is probably best ever. When he outruns a D for 80 yards, how many QBs can do that? Although you criticize his arm, I bet he's one of maybe ten starters that can throw deep across the field from one sideline to the other while running.

His ad-libbing while on the run is as good as all the famous college QBs, but does that work in the NFL? Should they have spent more time thinking "college offense" rather than what he's had? 

What he's had is a 3TE offense and a first year OC offense. No QB is racking up big yardage in a 3 TE offense and most first year OCs probably struggle.

He's had more failed high draft pick WRs than any QB I can think of(Wright, Hunter, DGB). Whether you want speed, size, ups, quickness...those three offered tremendous athletic traits and were lauded by many but they didn't pan out. WR coach was fired, amongst others. What can ya do? That's part of the NFL life too. 

Matthews is treated poorly then quits. Delanie gets hurts. Those were his guys- both of which were top 5 and top 10 on third down recently which does denote some excellent play by Marcus at crucial times. Which NFL QB rocks when they lose their top two targets?

Other than them, the WRs he's had have not reached a point where they're predictably very good or they were just journeymen.

More coaches and OCs than anyone except Bradford and probably right in line with Bradford. Titans GM JRob just likened learning a new offense to learning a new foreign language, so the Titans have spent more time(analogy) teaching Marcus to be a translator than to be a quarterback.

Bradford and Marcus are good soldiers that do whatever the coach asks. There is a different game on the field than just Xs and Os. Marcus has been outstanding at audibling and changing plays at the line of scrimmage but he's also had two OCs that took this ability away from him after he did so well. We assume their ego was hurt. This, however, is part of becoming a star- he must take the Xs and Os, the coaches thoughts, and add his own on the field. Taking audibles away though seems to make him revert to the good soldier mindset and that's not good for him, nor does it suit his athleticism. 

LaFleur was not good with Griffin or Manziel. He (and McVay and Shanny) was not good at teaching when to adlib when to be a good soldier, how to distinguish. It's not surprising that Mariota struggled. To say Griffin was overrated or Manziel never had it would ignore Griffin's rookie year or Manziels preseason and good moments as a rookie. There are garbage QBs in the NFL that come into games and I know the team is about to lose. They offer no hope. Manziel's nerve and feet would be better than so many of those guys. When I saw Griffin play this past summer, he looked like Bledsoe. What did they do to him? He had such legs and the guy was a statue. On the other side, there are guys like Russel Wilson (many QBs) that have the freedom to roll and buy some time. Marcus doesn't usually have that and when he does, he's in good boy mode staying in the pocket. Mularkey used to say things like "we told him he could move around" and Mularkey thought it'd be turning this ability on and off like a switch. Yes this week, no this week. They've completely botched Marcus' athleticism being an advantage.  

Sacks. Conklin changed things and Marcus got time for two years. His rookie year and this past year, he got shellacked like sooo many QBs that haven't panned out. I'll never forget watching David Carr at Giants camp. Beautiful throws, such an arm in drills and non-contact practice. When they went live, he looked like a chick yelling "ahhhh" and running away from something. The Ravens sacked Marcus 12 times in one game this year. How does that affect him? When is the point that too many sacks causes fear in QBs? Robiske had plays where the RB was to pickup a DT or DE. Since that's stupid, Marcus got hit so hard many times. What's it like to call a play knowing a 5-10 200 pound guy is to block a 310 pound beast? 

Mularkey's clever idea was to dust off a 1960s offense and have the Titans run it. The WRs were like splitends in high school, lined up where you'd expect an H-back. Guess who they had to chip/tap before going out for a route? Yep the DEs. Not only would the routes all largely be in the center of the field, but the DE was "free" after this chip. A RB was available to block one of the free DEs. 

Per one site re timing, Marcus threw 27 snap n throws this year. The Rams offense was built to be based off this with Goff throwing immediately, almost exclusively, his first so many games. Why did LaFleur change that? 

Marcus has the least throwaways of any starter this year. The most sacks in losing or tied games. That seems to be on him. Live to play another play. However, he did this his first three years so why isn't he throwing it away with the new staff? What'd they tell this good soldier?  

No one would disagree that Whisenhunt was awful ( Leinart had fascinating things to say after Whis was fired) or that a 3 TE offense or 1960s offense isn't suited to great QB stats. Learn the game from Weeden, Gabbert, Davis, Fitz, Mett...aside from Cassel no one would be like "yes, I'm glad my team added that guy" (maybe Fitz now, but his whole career I mean)and that sentiment matches the Titans coaches he's had. Do you see Whis or Mularkey filling the current openings? Fans clamoring for them to be hired?

There is a definite disconnect between what is Marcus' fault and what isn't.  It would be fantastic to be in here discussing how Mike Shanahan or Mike McCarthy are teaching him XYZ. That hasn't been the case though

There ya go, now I'm done replying to your bashing. Drink it in, or don't. That's where fans are at with MM8. 

He ABSOLUTELY seems to be a fine young man.  He ABSOLUTELY did not have several things go his way with coaches and scheme and team.  AND - He is not a good NFL quarterback.

I'm not bashing him.  I just have an opinion on it.  You aren't his guardian angel, please don't feel the need to pour walls of text every time someone notes the obvious... 

4 years in - he is what he is going to be... he hasn't won, he hasn't produced, he hasn't stayed on the field, he hasn't improved (easier to argue he regressed).  Long posts blaming other people for his play (I especially enjoyed how the backup QBs had let him down), cherry picking minutia stats and individual games, arguing he is a nice guy - doesn't change it.  Going into year 5, the team will blow it if they commit big $ to this guy.

 

Edited by matuski

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@Bri

I enjoy your insight and posting. Your insight to the politics, injuries, rumors etc... all great.

Please don't take offense when I don't agree with the messages you relay.  For example - The backup QB not developing Mariota story came from Johnson, not you.  When I tear that down for the ridiculousness it is, I am not attacking you or the player.  I am just amazed at this point how far people are bending over to make excuses.  

I enjoy debating the games and players here.  When I argue a player is not good at his position, that isn't anything personal.  It is what I see when I watch.

Edited by matuski
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Titans coach Mike Vrabel confirmed Marcus Mariota will be the starter.

"Obviously if Marcus is healthy, and he’s available, he’s our starter," Vrabel said. It does not feel like this needed to be confirmed, but both Vrabel and GM Jon Robinson have said Mariota will remain the starter in the wake of the Ryan Tannehill trade. Despite these comments, Mariota's long-term future with the Titans remains up in the air as he enters the final year of his rookie contract.

SOURCE: titansonline.com

Mar 25, 2019, 10:09 AM

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21 minutes ago, Faust said:

Titans coach Mike Vrabel confirmed Marcus Mariota will be the starter.

"Obviously if Marcus is healthy, and he’s available, he’s our starter," Vrabel said. It does not feel like this needed to be confirmed, but both Vrabel and GM Jon Robinson have said Mariota will remain the starter in the wake of the Ryan Tannehill trade. Despite these comments, Mariota's long-term future with the Titans remains up in the air as he enters the final year of his rookie contract.

I didn't think so either.

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Now that Marcus' full list of injuries last year has been released...holy cow. What a trooper!

The other side is this reaffirms his injury prone label and they're going to have to protect him better

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Marcus has developed a friendship with Brady.

The draft logistics people have inquired several times if Marcus is going to be traded.

The Pats have picks they can afford to trade.

I've long been hmmm about Belichick's love for Marcus.

I've been told over n over there is nothing here. So what he made a friend. The draft people inquire every year. So what to the rest. 

My thoughts are but, but, but...but I'm told it's nothing and coincidental

Edited by Bri

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He isn't awful.  That Sophomore season he had 26 TD's and 9 INT's.  

Going into last season, he lost his top pass catcher in Walker.  He can't get through a season healthy.  

I believe he can be a good NFL QB.  I worry he'll always miss a couple of games and keep his fantasy value down.  He just can't keep having the constant nagging injuries that drags his play down.  

With Walker back, Davis in his 3rd year, a nice rookie receiver in Brown AND Humphries--this will be far and away his best pass catching group.  If he can stay healthy, he's a decent value pick.  Again that's a big IF--but one you can afford at where he'll be drafted.  

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15 minutes ago, jm192 said:

He isn't awful.  That Sophomore season he had 26 TD's and 9 INT's.  

Going into last season, he lost his top pass catcher in Walker.  He can't get through a season healthy.  

I believe he can be a good NFL QB.  I worry he'll always miss a couple of games and keep his fantasy value down.  He just can't keep having the constant nagging injuries that drags his play down.  

With Walker back, Davis in his 3rd year, a nice rookie receiver in Brown AND Humphries--this will be far and away his best pass catching group.  If he can stay healthy, he's a decent value pick.  Again that's a big IF--but one you can afford at where he'll be drafted.  

I feel like we can go back a few years and find the same quote, only insert “walker, nice rookie wrs davis and Taylor, Rishard Mathews coming off a solid showing, a nice 2nd year from Tajae sharpe, and he can be a top 12 QB!”

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On 8/24/2017 at 2:32 PM, Mavis said:

I am this guys biggest fan this year.

Man crushing on his soon to be greatness HARD. Silent on him right now, especially with how many weapons he has now. 

Davis

Mathews

Decker

Walker

Sharpe

The RBs

That is a bunch of artillery. 

Here’s one from 2017...

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1 minute ago, Snorkelson said:

I feel like we can go back a few years and find the same quote, only insert “walker, nice rookie wrs davis and Taylor, Rishard Mathews coming off a solid showing, a nice 2nd year from Tajae sharpe, and he can be a top 12 QB!”

No doubt.  

I think 2 years ago, he was a rising star and you had to pay higher.  The world is soured on him at this point, he's virtually free.  

 

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19 hours ago, Snorkelson said:

I feel like we can go back a few years and find the same quote, only insert “walker, nice rookie wrs davis and Taylor, Rishard Mathews coming off a solid showing, a nice 2nd year from Tajae sharpe, and he can be a top 12 QB!”

You're right. And there are multiple variations of this for many players. 

The key with MM is health. Consistency in the offense would be nice too, but that's only if he can stay reasonably healthy. 

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in one of my 16 team leagues he was traded 4 times last year! 16 team deep (53 man rosters) salary cap IDP league

Team 2 gave up Year 2018 Draft Pick 1.05
Team 1 gave up Mariota, Marcus TEN QB; Year 2018 Draft Pick 1.14
Aug 2nd
 

Team 3 gave up Howard, Jordan CHI RB; Jordan, Cameron NOS DE; Marshall, Brandon DEN LB; Reid, Eric CAR S; Year 2018 Draft Pick 3.12; Year 2018 Draft Pick 6.12
Team 2 gave up Mariota, Marcus TEN QB; Year 2018 Draft Pick 1.11; Year 2018 Draft Pick 3.01; Year 2018 Draft Pick 3.02; Year 2019 Round 2 Draft Pick; Year 2020 Round 1 Draft Pick 
Aug 10th
 

Team 3 gave up Mariota, Marcus TEN QB; Anderson, Stephen NEP TE
Team 4 gave up Thompson, Chris WAS RB; Westbrook, Dede JAC WR; Year 2018 Draft Pick 3.06
Aug 10th again
 

Team 5 gave up Meredith, Cameron NOS WR; Dickson, Ed SEA TE; Quinn, Robert MIA DE; Year 2019 Round 2 Draft Pick 
Team 4 gave up Mariota, Marcus TEN QB
Nov 6th
 

 

Edited by JoeSteeler

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19 hours ago, matuski said:

Haven't most of his injuries been non contact related?  Last year was his elbow or wrist right?

nope. It's usually thought of as "who missed a block" and some are no longer with the team. It sounds mafia-esque but it's more that the team is just better now and the offense was awful like Antonio Andrews having to block a DT. Who scripts that?

Right, elbow, shoulder, wrist. Too swollen, pinched a nerve was the expression people said but really they weren't badly swollen. Instead it was like the other kind of carpal tunnel. Around the elbow, the nerve moves over and when healed (or from surgery) it moves back in place. I didn't know this existed. It's called cubital carpal tunnel. So we had Vrabel trying to be Belichickian and update injuries yet say nothing and Marcus having a nerve prob where everything hurt because...it's all going to until that nerve is back in place. It led to junk reporting and confusion because "my wrist hurts" may be true, but the wrist was fine, the nerve wasn't in the right spot

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23 hours ago, JoeSteeler said:

in one of my 16 team leagues he was traded 4 times last year! 16 team deep (53 man rosters) salary cap IDP league

Team 2 gave up Year 2018 Draft Pick 1.05
Team 1 gave up Mariota, Marcus TEN QB; Year 2018 Draft Pick 1.14
Aug 2nd
 

Team 3 gave up Howard, Jordan CHI RB; Jordan, Cameron NOS DE; Marshall, Brandon DEN LB; Reid, Eric CAR S; Year 2018 Draft Pick 3.12; Year 2018 Draft Pick 6.12
Team 2 gave up Mariota, Marcus TEN QB; Year 2018 Draft Pick 1.11; Year 2018 Draft Pick 3.01; Year 2018 Draft Pick 3.02; Year 2019 Round 2 Draft Pick; Year 2020 Round 1 Draft Pick 
Aug 10th
 

Team 3 gave up Mariota, Marcus TEN QB; Anderson, Stephen NEP TE
Team 4 gave up Thompson, Chris WAS RB; Westbrook, Dede JAC WR; Year 2018 Draft Pick 3.06
Aug 10th again
 

Team 5 gave up Meredith, Cameron NOS WR; Dickson, Ed SEA TE; Quinn, Robert MIA DE; Year 2019 Round 2 Draft Pick 
Team 4 gave up Mariota, Marcus TEN QB
Nov 6th
 

 

Team 2 didn’t make out very well. 

Team 3 did well.

Edited by Snorkelson

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