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Obamacare: Obama just straight up lied to you, in your face (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter tommyboy
- Start date
This is a common behavior from pathological liars.Remember that we're talking about two different things here: what the book claims, and what I think. The book claims he hates having his integrity questioned. I personally find that credible, but you'll have to read it and compare it to your previously held opinion of the man and judge for yourself. I've always liked Barack Obama from what I know of him as a person. I disapprove of many of his policies, but like every President, I want him to succeed. I want things to be good. It's like having your favorite sports team coached by somebody you don't think is doing a great job. You'd like to have the coach replaced, but you also don't want your team to lose. I have never understood fans who root for their team to lose in order to get the coach fired. I don't think like that.This is all kinds of awesome....in one breath you say that he doesn't like to have his integrity questioned then immediately turn around and set a bar so incredibly low for comparison that the only thing that would have trouble clearing said bar would be a half squashed slug......pure awesome
matttyl
Footballguy
As I said above, that can not be true. You can not go from an underwritten policy to a guaranteed issue policy and "pay less", it doesn't work that way. Some may (mainly the older and the sick who were still able to obtain costly pre-ACA coverage), but the vast majority will have to pay more to supplement those who previously couldn't obtain it.
And please don't bring up subsidies as a reason "the majority" will pay less. Tens of millions (possibly as high as a hundred million) have already received a cancellation notice or will in the next 12 months, while apparently only 17 million will obtain a subsidy in the first year (which includes many people who previously had no coverage).
Sand
Footballguy
Like all good politicians I used the premise of your question to throw the ancillary facts I wanted out there.
timschochet
Footballguy
Of course it could be true. In the long run, I believe you are correct, because you're just citing math which should be obvious to anyone. In the long run, there will have to be much greater subsidies to make this viable.
But in the short term, who the heck knows? The whole thing is so chaotic right now. I have trouble believing that Obama would say this, on top of his previous comments, if he was not advised beforehand that it was a safe thing for him to say. So we'll have to see.
timschochet
Footballguy
quickhands
Footballguy
it doesn't effect anything. The system that was set up doesn't work for delivery.
it's not working in states that accepted funds any better than states with foot draggers.
matttyl
Footballguy
I'm only talking about the short term. With that in mind, re-read your two underlined statements. The 17M number I gave was for those who will obtain a subsidy this coming year. When upwards of 100m are getting their previously underwritten plans canceled and replaced with guaranteed issued plans THIS YEAR, and only 17m will obtain a subsidy this coming year, his statement has to be false. The majority of people, even after subsidies and new age bands and such, will be paying more in 2014 than they would have if their 2013 plans were allowed to be renewed.
Schlzm
Footballguy
You are saying the President didn't lie on which point? Obviously the majority of people aren't keeping their coverage pre-ACA. As more time passes people will not be able to keep their doctor. You say that we need to look long term for *most* people to see savings them claim additional subsidies will be needed to make those savings happen, who pays for the subsidies? Schlzm
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm not moving the goalposts, nor am I trying to defend Obamacare. I can't answer matttyl's math. If his numbers are correct, then it doesn't make sense to me how it's possible that a majority of those who have their health insurance cancelled would receive a better, cheaper plan. I don't see how they can do it, even short term.
And yet...it doesn't make sense to me that Obama would make this assertion without being confident about the result. His credibility is currently under question. This is clearly the most serious political crisis of his Presidency (and that's saying a lot.) if it turns out that he is wrong again about this, it will likely kill Democratic chances next November, and it will leave a stain on his tenure in the White House over what was supposed to be his greatest triumph. So I have trouble accepting that this is yet another lie. I think there must be something here that I am missing, or that matttyl is missing. Anyhow, I'm hoping there is.
And yet...it doesn't make sense to me that Obama would make this assertion without being confident about the result. His credibility is currently under question. This is clearly the most serious political crisis of his Presidency (and that's saying a lot.) if it turns out that he is wrong again about this, it will likely kill Democratic chances next November, and it will leave a stain on his tenure in the White House over what was supposed to be his greatest triumph. So I have trouble accepting that this is yet another lie. I think there must be something here that I am missing, or that matttyl is missing. Anyhow, I'm hoping there is.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Oh come on.
The federal HC issue has been debated since the 1990's and probably almost every day in the Oval Office since Obama came to power and never did it become apparent that heightening the requirements for coverage would mean that the feds would be forcing insurance companies to drop the old obsoleted coverages???
Look at the attitudes of these guys, it's 'get over it,' 'too bad,' 'GOP conspiracy,' 'this is the future,' and the like.
boots11234
Footballguy
This is the easiest thing to answer. He knew if he told the truth, it would not pass. Period. So he chose to deceive the public.
BeaverCleaver
Footballguy
dhockster
Footballguy
As George Costanza would say, "Jerry, it's not a lie if you believe it". Obama has come too far with this plan to turn back now. If he is wrong about everyone's costs going up, there is really nothing he can do about it now. He is justing riding the ACA train, and hoping everything he promised comes true.
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timschochet
Footballguy
No, I'm talking about his current statement to Chuck Todd this week. ACA has already passed. Obama is in trouble, and yet he doubled down- he said the website would mostly be fixed by the end of the month, and once it was, that the majority of people who had their healthcare canceled will have better and cheaper alternatives. Why would Obama say this now?
Jim11
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
It's kind of humorous seeing the far left actually come to the realization that Obama may, in fact, not be as honest as they had imagined him to be.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
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timschochet
Footballguy
Its certainly possible, I suppose, that Obama is just blindly making statements like an ostrich and hoping for the best. We have had Presidents who, in the wake of disaster, have done this before (LBJ during Vietnam is a great example.) But I'm having trouble believing it. Again, I just don't buy Obama making these assertions without some sort of backup. I guess we'll find out one way or the other.
timschochet
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I think you're giving him way too much credit by suggesting he has his head in the sand.
He's telling Americans to put their head in the sand.
Obama has done it repeatedly throughout his Presidency. Why do you only make note of things that support your worldview instead of building upon previous incidents and evidence in cases like this?
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
timschochet
Footballguy
What can I say? Other than matttyl, (who continues to make very good points) the people here who are laughing at me or disagree with me all have a strong antipathy for Barack Obama that existed long before the problems with Obamacare. Forgive me if I believe that your arguments lack strong credibility.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sometimes you can be funny with your iconoclastic comments. This isn't one of those times, though.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Oh please, you don't need antipathy here.
This is a standard Obama dodge, criticism of him and his policies is borne out of anger.
Pure deflection.
timschochet
Footballguy
TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
dhockster
Footballguy
I buy it completely when I saw the man just try to clarify something he promised that was unclarifiable, i.e. "you can keep you health plan, period". I think the man has no idea what he is doing and is just finding out he is in way over his head, and he is just going to keep telling us everything is okay because he does not want it to look like he has no idea what he is doing. Politics 101: never admit you don't have an answer, or show weakness.
timschochet
Footballguy
Actually, it's constructive criticism. You should heed it once in a while. Or, you could just keep up with the personal insults.
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TheIronSheik
SUPER ELITE UPPER TIER
I kind of agree with this. And I've said this about him on a lot of other things. He never seems to want to make the decision or to take charge or lead the way. I am definitely not anti-Obama by any stretch of the imagination, but I am starting to think that he may not be a great leader.
timschochet
Footballguy
See, this is a myth IMO, largely created by conservative talk show hosts. According to the majority of interviews with people who have worked with Obama, both Democrats and Republicans, they are astonished by Obama's high level of knowledge and skill. Again, the new Mark Halperin book documents this.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
This is what Obama said:
http://www.politico.com/politico44/2011/12/blaming-hawaii-for-laziness-108583.html
matttyl
Footballguy
What else would you want him to say? If he told the truth now, the fallout would likely include impeachment. He knew many/most individual policies would have to be canceled and replaced - that was the only way to make the new "pool" sustainable. When you're replacing "crappy plans" (aka underwritten plans where you pay less if you're healthier) and adding lots of "enhancements" to it, the costs have to go up. The only people who may see a "break" will be the older (though I did quote a 63 year old single woman today and she'd pay about 45% more a month, but she's happy to know that any pregnancies would be covered) or someone paying a lot because they were sick or someone who will receive a subsidy. There are about 30 million people with individual policies, many being canceled and replaced, and the vast majority of small employer plans will be canceled and replaced. Add to that the ~50m currently uninsured....but only ~17m will get a subsidy in 2014. The numbers don't add up and tell you that "most will pay less". That can not be true. My guess - maybe 25% will, and that's assuming subsides work exactly as promised for all who would qualify.
Jim11
Footballguy
Obama's second cousin sez:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/21/we-are-witnessing-the-unmistakable-collapse-of-an-/
We are witnessing the unmistakable collapse of an American presidency. While this may not yet be irreversible, it certainly was predictable and preventable. Chief among its causes has been the unbridled hubris that prompted this president to force Obamacare, the government takeover of the finest health care system in the world, against the clear will of “we the people” while turning his back on the free-market principles that once made us the most prosperous nation on earth.
Obamacare would reduce our deficit. We were to believe that millions of Americans would be added to the insurance rolls, that medical care would not suffer, and somehow, almost magically, costs would go down.
Obamacare would allow you to keep your doctor and your current insurance. How can you keep your doctor if your doctor can’t keep his practice? The New England Journal of Medicine reported a survey that showed nearly half of America’s doctors are being forced to consider leaving their practice if Obamacare is implemented. And businesses already are finding they can no longer provide the same insurance policies to their employees that they had before Obamacare
Obamacare would not jeopardize senior citizens’ care. The continued viability of Medicare Advantage is in serious jeopardy because of Mr. Obama’s Medicare cuts to pay for other parts of his health care overhaul. Companies already are announcing that they can no longer offer this very popular free-market Medicare reform. What’s more, fewer doctors are able to accept Medicare patients with the downward pressure on reimbursement levels, currently stuck at 1980s levels. Too often, physicians’ practices cannot survive being in business with the federal government. Already, 42 percent of doctors do not accept Medicare, and that number is increasing. Your shiny government-issued Medicare card is meaningless without doctors who will accept it.
Obamacare would not ration health care. The president promised time and time again that he would not ration health care, and then promptly, under the cloak of a recess appointment, installed as the head of Medicare a man who would do it for him. Dr. Donald Berwick has announced unambiguously and with glee many times over that he will indeed ration America’s medical care (in addition to his own bizarre promises to redistribute your wealth) but he assures us that he’s our intellectual better, so it will be fine.
Obamacare would not raise taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000 a year.
“I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.” New excise taxes on pharmaceuticals and medical products will, of course, by necessity be passed on to the patients who depend on these lifesaving medicines, pacemakers, MRI machines or even tongue depressors. Even more flagrant, there are new Obamacare taxes on everything from tampons to tanning salons, from gold to the sale of your home.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/oct/21/we-are-witnessing-the-unmistakable-collapse-of-an-/
We are witnessing the unmistakable collapse of an American presidency. While this may not yet be irreversible, it certainly was predictable and preventable. Chief among its causes has been the unbridled hubris that prompted this president to force Obamacare, the government takeover of the finest health care system in the world, against the clear will of “we the people” while turning his back on the free-market principles that once made us the most prosperous nation on earth.
Obamacare would reduce our deficit. We were to believe that millions of Americans would be added to the insurance rolls, that medical care would not suffer, and somehow, almost magically, costs would go down.
Obamacare would allow you to keep your doctor and your current insurance. How can you keep your doctor if your doctor can’t keep his practice? The New England Journal of Medicine reported a survey that showed nearly half of America’s doctors are being forced to consider leaving their practice if Obamacare is implemented. And businesses already are finding they can no longer provide the same insurance policies to their employees that they had before Obamacare
Obamacare would not jeopardize senior citizens’ care. The continued viability of Medicare Advantage is in serious jeopardy because of Mr. Obama’s Medicare cuts to pay for other parts of his health care overhaul. Companies already are announcing that they can no longer offer this very popular free-market Medicare reform. What’s more, fewer doctors are able to accept Medicare patients with the downward pressure on reimbursement levels, currently stuck at 1980s levels. Too often, physicians’ practices cannot survive being in business with the federal government. Already, 42 percent of doctors do not accept Medicare, and that number is increasing. Your shiny government-issued Medicare card is meaningless without doctors who will accept it.
Obamacare would not ration health care. The president promised time and time again that he would not ration health care, and then promptly, under the cloak of a recess appointment, installed as the head of Medicare a man who would do it for him. Dr. Donald Berwick has announced unambiguously and with glee many times over that he will indeed ration America’s medical care (in addition to his own bizarre promises to redistribute your wealth) but he assures us that he’s our intellectual better, so it will be fine.
Obamacare would not raise taxes on anyone earning less than $250,000 a year.
“I can make a firm pledge. Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes.” New excise taxes on pharmaceuticals and medical products will, of course, by necessity be passed on to the patients who depend on these lifesaving medicines, pacemakers, MRI machines or even tongue depressors. Even more flagrant, there are new Obamacare taxes on everything from tampons to tanning salons, from gold to the sale of your home.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
dhockster
Footballguy
I am not saying he doesn't have intellect. But he doesn't seem to know how to govern. That doesn't mean compromising what he believes but everything doesn't have to be an ideological battle. I think Obama is more ethical and probably more intelligent than Clinton, but Clinton was still able to govern somewhat effectively with a republican controlled congress. I don't see this happening with Obama, as he seems to refuse, absolutely, to have anything to do with the republicans.
And my opinion is based on what I am observing not based on conservative talk show hosts. I have not demeaned you in this thread, please try not to demean me or my intelligence. Thanks.
timschochet
Footballguy
That wasn't meant to demean you. I do believe the "over his head" meme originated with those hosts, however. But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt regarding where you came up with it.
Dealing with the Republicans is a two way street. IMO, the Republicans of Bob Dole and Newt Gingrich were much easier to deal with than the Republicans of Mitch McConnell and John Boehner. While some of this is indeed on Obama and the Democrats, most of it is on the Tea Party and hard line conservatives. Suppose Dole and Newt had said, "We're not going to negotiate welfare reform; we simply want to get rid of welfare, and that's our only negotiation".? That would have made it impossible for Clinton to get a deal done. Would you then have criticized Bill for his failure to negotiate with Republicans?
Mark Davis
Footballguy
It's amazing really that simple financial reality is so lost in all this. There's simply no way it can be less. Also, remember someone has to pay for the "subsidy".matttyl said:
The Commish
Footballguy
There's a gap between where medicaid ends and ACA begins. To fix that, the federal government offered monies to the states to bridge that gap for the first three years. Some states rejected the money choosing to "reject Obamacare" over caring for those falling through this huge crack.timschochet said:
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