Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
tommyboy

Obamacare: Obama just straight up lied to you, in your face

Recommended Posts

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

:goodposting: The only reason this turd is a law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

:goodposting: The only reason this turd is a law.

This law is a compromise by Obama bc he wanted single payer but was only able to pass the GOP healthcare law Romneycare.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are buying their spin, it clearly was a design decision and there was no requirement to order the signup process to go through the expensive qualification process prior to viewing the plans (i.e. there was no filter placed on the plans due to qualification).

His company had a hand in parts of the app. I'd take his word on this trainwreck over any of the nonsensical sites out there just guessing what happened and/or making up crazy political angles to feed the fray.
Except there's nothing crazy about the motivation in hiding the increase in premium costs and the plans aren't filtered based on input from the subsidy qualification process negating a reason to qualify prior to showing available plans.

Your transfixing political agendas onto a developer though...what's the point in that? I guarantee they were given a functional design doc or maybe a technical design doc and went by the requirements. As a developer you don't have the luxury of just changing requirements in the interest of app efficiency. You code the fastest solution to the requirement given. You can go off and harp on the politicians for making the requirement such, but that's where it should end.

Ummm, hello? I'm blaming the govt. The contractors have nothing to gain in hiding the increase in premiums particularly when it hurts the performance of the site.

My bad...when one is so focused on the "layout" and "flow" of the application talking in vague terms about the technology I usually assume they are talking about the app itself and not the requirements it was based on. You should be able to see my confusion here. Typically when knocking the application, one's making comments about the application, but when you're making comments about the app you're really talking about the gov't. I have that right?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Edited by The Commish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Only a truely deranged person could twist this into a GOP plan. Take credit for what your party passed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This law is a compromise by Obama bc he wanted single payer but was only able to pass the GOP healthcare law Romneycare.

Stop with this. There was no compromise with the GOP. The "compromise" to get ACA passed was with other Democrats (mostly, the so-called "Blue Dog" Democrats). Make no mistake about it, if every Democrat in both houses of Congress had been willing to vote for single-payer, we'd have single-payer right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This law is a compromise by Obama bc he wanted single payer but was only able to pass the GOP healthcare law Romneycare.

Stop with this. There was no compromise with the GOP. The "compromise" to get ACA passed was with other Democrats (mostly, the so-called "Blue Dog" Democrats). Make no mistake about it, if every Democrat in both houses of Congress had been willing to vote for single-payer, we'd have single-payer right now.

This is pretty much true. Are you counting Joe Lieberman as a Democrat or an independent? He was caucusing with the Dems but wasn't elected as a Dem. Without him, they never had the 60 Senate votes they needed. And I think he was opposed to single-payer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Only a truely deranged person could twist this into a GOP plan. Take credit for what your party passed.

You need to reread what I posted. I didn't say it wasn't the dem plan. It is...they passed it. It just happens to align very closely with what the GOP wanted back in the day. This isn't news....it's not even a question. It's one of the main reasons I can't take either party seriously. It's the definition of bat#### crazy. It's also not news that what Obama wanted was essentially a single payer system and the blue bloods in the Senate weren't having it. Now it is what it is. Don't believe me, go look it up. It's out there in black and white.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Only a truely deranged person could twist this into a GOP plan. Take credit for what your party passed.

You need to reread what I posted. I didn't say it wasn't the dem plan. It is...they passed it. It just happens to align very closely with what the GOP wanted back in the day. This isn't news....it's not even a question. It's one of the main reasons I can't take either party seriously. It's the definition of bat#### crazy. It's also not news that what Obama wanted was essentially a single payer system and the blue bloods in the Senate weren't having it. Now it is what it is. Don't believe me, go look it up. It's out there in black and white.

This is not what "the GOP wanted back in the day". Not even close. There were a few GOP members and one think tank that floated the idea of an individual mandate associated with a very different overall program. And even that never had broad GOP support.

Edit to add:

Your now deleted link makes my point for me..."it had 21 co-sponsors, including two Democrats (Sens. Boren and Kerrey). The bill, which was not debated or voted upon"

Edited by Soonerman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Only a truely deranged person could twist this into a GOP plan. Take credit for what your party passed.

You need to reread what I posted. I didn't say it wasn't the dem plan. It is...they passed it. It just happens to align very closely with what the GOP wanted back in the day. This isn't news....it's not even a question. It's one of the main reasons I can't take either party seriously. It's the definition of bat#### crazy. It's also not news that what Obama wanted was essentially a single payer system and the blue bloods in the Senate weren't having it. Now it is what it is. Don't believe me, go look it up. It's out there in black and white.

This is not what "the GOP wanted back in the day". Not even close. There were a few GOP members and one think tank that floated the idea of an individual mandate associated with a very different overall program. And even that never had broad GOP support.

If you're assertion is that it was just a few people, that'd be misguided. Heritage Foundation was a supporter of a mandate. Romney actually implemented it. Gingrich was for it before he was against it (ala Romney). The bill had 21 co-sponsors to it. It was the primary alternative to Clinton's solution which expanded government. There was no other solution presented in opposition to Clinton's plan.

ETA: Perhaps you'd be more comfortable if I said the MODERATE members of the GOP wanted it?? I'm quite certain none of the self proclaimed CONSERVATIVE members of the GOP wanted it. That better?

Edited by The Commish

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Only a truely deranged person could twist this into a GOP plan. Take credit for what your party passed.

You need to reread what I posted. I didn't say it wasn't the dem plan. It is...they passed it. It just happens to align very closely with what the GOP wanted back in the day. This isn't news....it's not even a question. It's one of the main reasons I can't take either party seriously. It's the definition of bat#### crazy. It's also not news that what Obama wanted was essentially a single payer system and the blue bloods in the Senate weren't having it. Now it is what it is. Don't believe me, go look it up. It's out there in black and white.

This is not what "the GOP wanted back in the day". Not even close. There were a few GOP members and one think tank that floated the idea of an individual mandate associated with a very different overall program. And even that never had broad GOP support.

If you're assertion is that it was just a few people, that'd be misguided. Heritage Foundation was a supporter of a mandate. Romney actually implemented it. Gingrich was for it before he was against it (ala Romney). The bill had 21 co-sponsors to it. It was the primary alternative to Clinton's solution which expanded government. There was no other solution presented in opposition to Clinton's plan.

Like I said, one think tank and a few members supported the individual mandate, but even that was not in the context of the Chafee proposal. The Heritage proposal was otherwise vastly different from Obamacare.

Romney had to work in a deep blue state to fix what the state democrats had previously screwed up. That solution obviously had no national GOP support to speak of.

19 GOP sponsors of a liberal Republicans bill is again a sign of very little support from the party. To imply that any of this means that Obamcare is now what "the GOP" once supported is hilariously wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are buying their spin, it clearly was a design decision and there was no requirement to order the signup process to go through the expensive qualification process prior to viewing the plans (i.e. there was no filter placed on the plans due to qualification).

His company had a hand in parts of the app. I'd take his word on this trainwreck over any of the nonsensical sites out there just guessing what happened and/or making up crazy political angles to feed the fray.
Except there's nothing crazy about the motivation in hiding the increase in premium costs and the plans aren't filtered based on input from the subsidy qualification process negating a reason to qualify prior to showing available plans.
Your transfixing political agendas onto a developer though...what's the point in that? I guarantee they were given a functional design doc or maybe a technical design doc and went by the requirements. As a developer you don't have the luxury of just changing requirements in the interest of app efficiency. You code the fastest solution to the requirement given. You can go off and harp on the politicians for making the requirement such, but that's where it should end.

Ummm, hello? I'm blaming the govt. The contractors have nothing to gain in hiding the increase in premiums particularly when it hurts the performance of the site.

My bad...when one is so focused on the "layout" and "flow" of the application talking in vague terms about the technology I usually assume they are talking about the app itself and not the requirements it was based on. You should be able to see my confusion here. Typically when knocking the application, one's making comments about the application, but when you're making comments about the app you're really talking about the gov't. I have that right?

You need to start paying attention to the #### you reply to.

You see when you quote someone like you did in the first post in the quote above and you leave out the important parts only to later comment on the important parts that you originally deleted in your response you end up looking like a fool.

The important parts:

HHS didn’t want users to see Obamacare’s true costs

“Healthcare.gov was initially going to include an option to browse before registering,” report Christopher Weaver and Louise Radnofsky in the Wall Street Journal. “But that tool was delayed, people familiar with the situation said.” Why was it delayed? “An HHS spokeswoman said the agency wanted to ensure that users were aware of their eligibility for subsidies that could help pay for coverage, before they started seeing the prices of policies. (Emphasis added.)

.

Edited by Jojo the circus boy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that getting people to know their subsidies first seems like a good idea, and I wouldn't describe it as "hiding" anything. You don't want people to go on the site, look at the unsubsidized prices for two seconds, decide it is too expensive, and give up. The objective should be to convey information to consumers about what their actual price would be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that getting people to know their subsidies first seems like a good idea, and I wouldn't describe it as "hiding" anything. You don't want people to go on the site, look at the unsubsidized prices for two seconds, decide it is too expensive, and give up. The objective should be to convey information to consumers about what their actual price would be.

The same argument can be made for someone not wanting to enter all that information and being turned off by the process (i.e. they just wanted to see what plans were available).

It sounds all fine and dandy until you put this complex and expensive (in terms of processing power / time) into the flow of the site, it's the equivalent of having someone fill out their name, billing address, shipping address, and credit card information and then checking their credit before allowing them to shop.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that getting people to know their subsidies first seems like a good idea, and I wouldn't describe it as "hiding" anything. You don't want people to go on the site, look at the unsubsidized prices for two seconds, decide it is too expensive, and give up. The objective should be to convey information to consumers about what their actual price would be.

They could have gone halfway and let people play with numbers with a very simple anonymous questionnaire. The way they've chosen to do it is asinine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that getting people to know their subsidies first seems like a good idea, and I wouldn't describe it as "hiding" anything. You don't want people to go on the site, look at the unsubsidized prices for two seconds, decide it is too expensive, and give up. The objective should be to convey information to consumers about what their actual price would be.

It would be awesome if the site actually did that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This law is a compromise by Obama bc he wanted single payer but was only able to pass the GOP healthcare law Romneycare.

Stop with this. There was no compromise with the GOP. The "compromise" to get ACA passed was with other Democrats (mostly, the so-called "Blue Dog" Democrats). Make no mistake about it, if every Democrat in both houses of Congress had been willing to vote for single-payer, we'd have single-payer right now.

This is pretty much true. Are you counting Joe Lieberman as a Democrat or an independent? He was caucusing with the Dems but wasn't elected as a Dem. Without him, they never had the 60 Senate votes they needed. And I think he was opposed to single-payer.

Meh, call Leiberman whatever you want. Everyone understands he's a moderate Democrat, regardless of his label.

I'm just tired of the "ACA was watered down from what Obama really wanted because of compromises made to the GOP" meme. It's not true. Compromises were made to garner votes, but not to garner GOP votes.

Edited by Rich Conway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Only a truely deranged person could twist this into a GOP plan. Take credit for what your party passed.

You need to reread what I posted. I didn't say it wasn't the dem plan. It is...they passed it. It just happens to align very closely with what the GOP wanted back in the day. This isn't news....it's not even a question. It's one of the main reasons I can't take either party seriously. It's the definition of bat#### crazy. It's also not news that what Obama wanted was essentially a single payer system and the blue bloods in the Senate weren't having it. Now it is what it is. Don't believe me, go look it up. It's out there in black and white.

This is not what "the GOP wanted back in the day". Not even close. There were a few GOP members and one think tank that floated the idea of an individual mandate associated with a very different overall program. And even that never had broad GOP support.

If you're assertion is that it was just a few people, that'd be misguided. Heritage Foundation was a supporter of a mandate. Romney actually implemented it. Gingrich was for it before he was against it (ala Romney). The bill had 21 co-sponsors to it. It was the primary alternative to Clinton's solution which expanded government. There was no other solution presented in opposition to Clinton's plan.

Like I said, one think tank and a few members supported the individual mandate, but even that was not in the context of the Chafee proposal. The Heritage proposal was otherwise vastly different from Obamacare.

Romney had to work in a deep blue state to fix what the state democrats had previously screwed up. That solution obviously had no national GOP support to speak of.

19 GOP sponsors of a liberal Republicans bill is again a sign of very little support from the party. To imply that any of this means that Obamcare is now what "the GOP" once supported is hilariously wrong.

If you dismiss the "status" of those supporting it and look purely at the numbers as a percentage, I'd agree. But the people on board were folks like the Senate minority leader and ranking repubs on Senate committees. At the time that was significant, but I'd understand why you wouldn't want to take that into account. It should be noted that I wasn't attempting to suggest these were equal (my TGunz qualification i have to put in all my posts now). I understand there were differences, but they were differences in how to accomplish the same goal. A goal now that the GOP thinks is absolutely ridiculous, so much so that a lot of their supporters are now against it after being for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that getting people to know their subsidies first seems like a good idea, and I wouldn't describe it as "hiding" anything. You don't want people to go on the site, look at the unsubsidized prices for two seconds, decide it is too expensive, and give up. The objective should be to convey information to consumers about what their actual price would be.

They could have gone halfway and let people play with numbers with a very simple anonymous questionnaire. The way they've chosen to do it is asinine.

:goodposting:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are buying their spin, it clearly was a design decision and there was no requirement to order the signup process to go through the expensive qualification process prior to viewing the plans (i.e. there was no filter placed on the plans due to qualification).

His company had a hand in parts of the app. I'd take his word on this trainwreck over any of the nonsensical sites out there just guessing what happened and/or making up crazy political angles to feed the fray.
Except there's nothing crazy about the motivation in hiding the increase in premium costs and the plans aren't filtered based on input from the subsidy qualification process negating a reason to qualify prior to showing available plans.
Your transfixing political agendas onto a developer though...what's the point in that? I guarantee they were given a functional design doc or maybe a technical design doc and went by the requirements. As a developer you don't have the luxury of just changing requirements in the interest of app efficiency. You code the fastest solution to the requirement given. You can go off and harp on the politicians for making the requirement such, but that's where it should end.

Ummm, hello? I'm blaming the govt. The contractors have nothing to gain in hiding the increase in premiums particularly when it hurts the performance of the site.

My bad...when one is so focused on the "layout" and "flow" of the application talking in vague terms about the technology I usually assume they are talking about the app itself and not the requirements it was based on. You should be able to see my confusion here. Typically when knocking the application, one's making comments about the application, but when you're making comments about the app you're really talking about the gov't. I have that right?

You need to start paying attention to the #### you reply to.

You see when you quote someone like you did in the first post in the quote above and you leave out the important parts only to later comment on the important parts that you originally deleted in your response you end up looking like a fool.

The important parts:

HHS didn’t want users to see Obamacare’s true costs

“Healthcare.gov was initially going to include an option to browse before registering,” report Christopher Weaver and Louise Radnofsky in the Wall Street Journal. “But that tool was delayed, people familiar with the situation said.” Why was it delayed? “An HHS spokeswoman said the agency wanted to ensure that users were aware of their eligibility for subsidies that could help pay for coverage, before they started seeing the prices of policies. (Emphasis added.)

.

I generally don't pay attention to #### period....whether I am replying or not, but I admire the acknowledgment that what you're posting is ####. That's a step in the right direction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This law is a compromise by Obama bc he wanted single payer but was only able to pass the GOP healthcare law Romneycare.

Stop with this. There was no compromise with the GOP. The "compromise" to get ACA passed was with other Democrats (mostly, the so-called "Blue Dog" Democrats). Make no mistake about it, if every Democrat in both houses of Congress had been willing to vote for single-payer, we'd have single-payer right now.

This is pretty much true. Are you counting Joe Lieberman as a Democrat or an independent? He was caucusing with the Dems but wasn't elected as a Dem. Without him, they never had the 60 Senate votes they needed. And I think he was opposed to single-payer.

Meh, either way. I'm just tired of the "ACA was watered down because of compromises made to the GOP" meme. It's not true. Compromises were made to garner votes, but not to garner GOP votes.

Well yeah, because each time Obama compromised, the GOP moved the goalposts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's going to be pretty entertaining in here when this thing is viewed as a colossal failure in 5-10 years with skyrocketing costs and huge breakdowns in service.

I'm sure the supporters will be blaming global warming or secondhand smoke or something. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that getting people to know their subsidies first seems like a good idea, and I wouldn't describe it as "hiding" anything. You don't want people to go on the site, look at the unsubsidized prices for two seconds, decide it is too expensive, and give up. The objective should be to convey information to consumers about what their actual price would be.

They could have gone halfway and let people play with numbers with a very simple anonymous questionnaire. The way they've chosen to do it is asinine.

:goodposting:

Yeah, I'm not saying there wouldn't have been better ways to do it. Just saying that an objective should have been to give consumers a better idea of their subsidized prices.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This law is a compromise by Obama bc he wanted single payer but was only able to pass the GOP healthcare law Romneycare.

Stop with this. There was no compromise with the GOP. The "compromise" to get ACA passed was with other Democrats (mostly, the so-called "Blue Dog" Democrats). Make no mistake about it, if every Democrat in both houses of Congress had been willing to vote for single-payer, we'd have single-payer right now.

This is pretty much true. Are you counting Joe Lieberman as a Democrat or an independent? He was caucusing with the Dems but wasn't elected as a Dem. Without him, they never had the 60 Senate votes they needed. And I think he was opposed to single-payer.

Meh, call Leiberman whatever you want. Everyone understands he's a moderate Democrat, regardless of his label.

I'm just tired of the "ACA was watered down from what Obama really wanted because of compromises made to the GOP" meme. It's not true. Compromises were made to garner votes, but not to garner GOP votes.

Yep, and the problem is after enough time goes by people will distort the facts to fit a different narrative. Like the GOP moving goal posts when Obama was trying to negotiate with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This law is a compromise by Obama bc he wanted single payer but was only able to pass the GOP healthcare law Romneycare.

Stop with this. There was no compromise with the GOP. The "compromise" to get ACA passed was with other Democrats (mostly, the so-called "Blue Dog" Democrats). Make no mistake about it, if every Democrat in both houses of Congress had been willing to vote for single-payer, we'd have single-payer right now.

This is pretty much true. Are you counting Joe Lieberman as a Democrat or an independent? He was caucusing with the Dems but wasn't elected as a Dem. Without him, they never had the 60 Senate votes they needed. And I think he was opposed to single-payer.

Meh, either way. I'm just tired of the "ACA was watered down because of compromises made to the GOP" meme. It's not true. Compromises were made to garner votes, but not to garner GOP votes.

Well yeah, because each time Obama compromised, the GOP moved the goalposts.

You're just wrong about this. Obama had enough Democrat members in both chambers (if you include independents who caucus with Democrats, as fatguy points out) to pass ACA without GOP votes. The fact is, he couldn't get enough votes FROM HIS OWN PARTY without making the "compromises". Those compromises were never about adding GOP votes; they were about adding Democrat votes.

Now, feel free to call the Blue Dogs "GOP-lite" or "DINOs" or whatever you want, but they were the reason for the "compromises", not the actual GOP.

Edited by Rich Conway

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This law is a compromise by Obama bc he wanted single payer but was only able to pass the GOP healthcare law Romneycare.

Stop with this. There was no compromise with the GOP. The "compromise" to get ACA passed was with other Democrats (mostly, the so-called "Blue Dog" Democrats). Make no mistake about it, if every Democrat in both houses of Congress had been willing to vote for single-payer, we'd have single-payer right now.

This is pretty much true. Are you counting Joe Lieberman as a Democrat or an independent? He was caucusing with the Dems but wasn't elected as a Dem. Without him, they never had the 60 Senate votes they needed. And I think he was opposed to single-payer.

Meh, either way. I'm just tired of the "ACA was watered down because of compromises made to the GOP" meme. It's not true. Compromises were made to garner votes, but not to garner GOP votes.

Well yeah, because each time Obama compromised, the GOP moved the goalposts.

They didn't need the GOP to compromise. They had the votes to do this without them and essentially did. It's on the dems that this thing has changed significantly from what Obama originally proposed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Only a truely deranged person could twist this into a GOP plan. Take credit for what your party passed.

Yeah, if that's what Republicans actually wanted you would think they'd have made it some sort of priority when they controlled things. This is how you know Republicans are fake conservatives - they talk a bunch about stuff like SS reform. Bush ran on that platform. When the chips were down he didn't even try and do anything about it. Trying to call a plan that got no Republican votes a Republican plan takes some real brainwashing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Only a truely deranged person could twist this into a GOP plan. Take credit for what your party passed.

Yeah, if that's what Republicans actually wanted you would think they'd have made it some sort of priority when they controlled things. This is how you know Republicans are fake conservatives - they talk a bunch about stuff like SS reform. Bush ran on that platform. When the chips were down he didn't even try and do anything about it. Trying to call a plan that got no Republican votes a Republican plan takes some real brainwashing.

The reason people keep pointing out that the plan was originally created by the Heritage Foundation is because those in your camp (the Tea Party) keep spouting stuff about how this plan is Marxist and will fundamentally change America for the worse. Obamacare is not a good program, IMO, but the vitriol against it is incredibly overblown and based on falsehood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

Some would argue that this has been the plan all along. Drive prices through the roof by adding massive inefficiencies to an already overregulated system, ramp up taxes/fees in the name of propping the system up, then proclaim the entire project a failure and use the new revenue stream as the monetary base for implementing a single-payer system. In the short-term, the tech firms and insurance companies get to line their pockets. What's not to love?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, your statement about Bush is false as well. During the first year of Bush's second term, he tried desperately to reform Social Security, and his efforts got nowhere, thanks to opposition from everyone- not just Democrats, but conservative Republicans as well. To criticize Bush for this failure rather than those who opposed him is the height of hypocrisy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just tired of the "ACA was watered down from what Obama really wanted because of compromises made to the GOP" meme. It's not true. Compromises were made to garner votes, but not to garner GOP votes.

I think you need to go back and look at how it all went down. Obama gets into office preaching a new kind of governing and makes healthcare reform a priority. The Minnesota Senate race was still going through recounts so there were 59 Democratic senators, counting Lieberman. Some of the Dems were squishy. It also seemed at the time like maybe they would be able to get a handful of Republican votes like Olympia Snowe or Susan Collins.

Obama really wanted to stamp this as a somewhat bipartisan achievement. So there definitely was significant engagement with Republicans in the early stages, both because of the possibility that their votes would be needed (if the Minnesota recount went poorly or if a few Democrats voted against), and for the optics of getting at least some Republicans on board. So the general framework started getting worked out under that premise.

It took a while before Al Franken won the recount, and it also took a while before it became evident that that they weren't going to get any Republican votes at all on this. By that time the health care discussions had been ongoing for months and there were already issues with Senator Byrd and Senator Kennedy's health. Scrapping everything that had been discussed and starting from scratch wasn't a very viable option. So they cut some shady deals with the few Democrats still holding out and pushed what they had through the Senate while Kennedy and Byrd were still able to vote. It wasn't obvious that version was going to end up being the law, and the House wasn't happy with it, but then Kennedy died and Scott Brown got elected, so passing a new version in the Senate became impossible and they just went with what they had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

Some would argue that this has been the plan all along. Drive prices through the roof by adding massive inefficiencies to an already overregulated system, ramp up taxes/fees in the name of propping the system up, then proclaim the entire project a failure and use the new revenue stream as the monetary base for implementing a single-payer system. In the short-term, the tech firms and insurance companies get to line their pockets. What's not to love?

I love the "some would argue" line. What, are you afraid to admit that YOU are the some? Don't want people to think that you're incredibly paranoid (as you would truly have to be to believe this)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Only a truely deranged person could twist this into a GOP plan. Take credit for what your party passed.

Yeah, if that's what Republicans actually wanted you would think they'd have made it some sort of priority when they controlled things. This is how you know Republicans are fake conservatives - they talk a bunch about stuff like SS reform. Bush ran on that platform. When the chips were down he didn't even try and do anything about it. Trying to call a plan that got no Republican votes a Republican plan takes some real brainwashing.

The reason people keep pointing out that the plan was originally created by the Heritage Foundation is because those in your camp (the Tea Party) keep spouting stuff about how this plan is Marxist and will fundamentally change America for the worse. Obamacare is not a good program, IMO, but the vitriol against it is incredibly overblown and based on falsehood.

I see, it has nothing to do with all of you guys being lap dogs for these parties. You're just trying to out crazy someone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When Obama said it will cost $900 Billion over ten years the Republicans should have stuck that as the hard cap number that they can't go over. They didn't, because they don't really care about the costs and really only care about looking "good" compared to the democrats.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

If Obamacare fails, this will be the ultimate result.

But at this point, how can anyone judge that it's a failure yet? We're years away from such an evaluation. So far, 90% of the complaints seem to be about computer glitches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

If Obamacare fails, this will be the ultimate result.

But at this point, how can anyone judge that it's a failure yet? We're years away from such an evaluation. So far, 90% of the complaints seem to be about computer glitches.

...and prices

...and choice of plans

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just tired of the "ACA was watered down from what Obama really wanted because of compromises made to the GOP" meme. It's not true. Compromises were made to garner votes, but not to garner GOP votes.

I think you need to go back and look at how it all went down. Obama gets into office preaching a new kind of governing and makes healthcare reform a priority. The Minnesota Senate race was still going through recounts so there were 59 Democratic senators, counting Lieberman. Some of the Dems were squishy. It also seemed at the time like maybe they would be able to get a handful of Republican votes like Olympia Snowe or Susan Collins.

Obama really wanted to stamp this as a somewhat bipartisan achievement. So there definitely was significant engagement with Republicans in the early stages, both because of the possibility that their votes would be needed (if the Minnesota recount went poorly or if a few Democrats voted against), and for the optics of getting at least some Republicans on board. So the general framework started getting worked out under that premise.

It took a while before Al Franken won the recount, and it also took a while before it became evident that that they weren't going to get any Republican votes at all on this. By that time the health care discussions had been ongoing for months and there were already issues with Senator Byrd and Senator Kennedy's health. Scrapping everything that had been discussed and starting from scratch wasn't a very viable option. So they cut some shady deals with the few Democrats still holding out and pushed what they had through the Senate while Kennedy and Byrd were still able to vote. It wasn't obvious that version was going to end up being the law, and the House wasn't happy with it, but then Kennedy died and Scott Brown got elected, so passing a new version in the Senate became impossible and they just went with what they had.

I went back to look and got a few details wrong, but the gist of it was right. Kennedy died before the Senate actually passed what would become the ACA. The interim Massachusetts Senator (between Kennedy and Brown)cast the vote.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

Some would argue that this has been the plan all along. Drive prices through the roof by adding massive inefficiencies to an already overregulated system, ramp up taxes/fees in the name of propping the system up, then proclaim the entire project a failure and use the new revenue stream as the monetary base for implementing a single-payer system. In the short-term, the tech firms and insurance companies get to line their pockets. What's not to love?

I love the "some would argue" line. What, are you afraid to admit that YOU are the some? Don't want people to think that you're incredibly paranoid (as you would truly have to be to believe this)?

It may not have been the plan all along, but there are clearly a lot of Dems that will use any Obamacare failures to push for single payer.

Edited by Soonerman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

Some would argue that this has been the plan all along. Drive prices through the roof by adding massive inefficiencies to an already overregulated system, ramp up taxes/fees in the name of propping the system up, then proclaim the entire project a failure and use the new revenue stream as the monetary base for implementing a single-payer system. In the short-term, the tech firms and insurance companies get to line their pockets. What's not to love?

I love the "some would argue" line. What, are you afraid to admit that YOU are the some? Don't want people to think that you're incredibly paranoid (as you would truly have to be to believe this)?

Forgive me if my manner of speaking/typing doesn't meet with your approval. Perhaps I should start a new thread for each disjointed thought which passes through my mind in order to place them more coherent format for you.

Of course I think this is a possibility. The progressive modus operandi for the past 100 years has been the continuous implementation of one social program after another, each more comprehensive than the ones which preceded them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

If Obamacare fails, this will be the ultimate result.

But at this point, how can anyone judge that it's a failure yet? We're years away from such an evaluation. So far, 90% of the complaints seem to be about computer glitches.

This might even be the Republican plan since they're a bunch of big government hypocrites these days.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

If Obamacare fails, this will be the ultimate result.

But at this point, how can anyone judge that it's a failure yet? We're years away from such an evaluation. So far, 90% of the complaints seem to be about computer glitches.

...and prices

...and choice of plans

In terms of complaints, that's the other 10%- so far. In the long term, of course, it is these issues, and not computer glitches, that will decide the success or failure of Obamacare.

But I am very skeptical that that the majority of the public will discover that the program is not beneficial for them, as you assume right now that they will. I have trouble believing that the people behind this would design a system that would be so devastating to it's creators. My strong hunch is that once all the glitches are fixed, more people will like Obamacare than dislike it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

If Obamacare fails, this will be the ultimate result.

But at this point, how can anyone judge that it's a failure yet? We're years away from such an evaluation. So far, 90% of the complaints seem to be about computer glitches.

...and prices

...and choice of plans

...and mandates

...and waivers

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm just tired of the "ACA was watered down from what Obama really wanted because of compromises made to the GOP" meme. It's not true. Compromises were made to garner votes, but not to garner GOP votes.

I think you need to go back and look at how it all went down. Obama gets into office preaching a new kind of governing and makes healthcare reform a priority. The Minnesota Senate race was still going through recounts so there were 59 Democratic senators, counting Lieberman. Some of the Dems were squishy. It also seemed at the time like maybe they would be able to get a handful of Republican votes like Olympia Snowe or Susan Collins.

Obama really wanted to stamp this as a somewhat bipartisan achievement. So there definitely was significant engagement with Republicans in the early stages, both because of the possibility that their votes would be needed (if the Minnesota recount went poorly or if a few Democrats voted against), and for the optics of getting at least some Republicans on board. So the general framework started getting worked out under that premise.

It took a while before Al Franken won the recount, and it also took a while before it became evident that that they weren't going to get any Republican votes at all on this. By that time the health care discussions had been ongoing for months and there were already issues with Senator Byrd and Senator Kennedy's health. Scrapping everything that had been discussed and starting from scratch wasn't a very viable option. So they cut some shady deals with the few Democrats still holding out and pushed what they had through the Senate while Kennedy and Byrd were still able to vote. It wasn't obvious that version was going to end up being the law, and the House wasn't happy with it, but then Kennedy died and Scott Brown got elected, so passing a new version in the Senate became impossible and they just went with what they had.

So you're saying they attempted to compromise to get GOP votes because they couldn't get enough Democrat votes. It's not the GOP's fault that 60 out of 60 Democrats didn't want single-payer or whatever other stuff Obama wanted. Like I said before, if 60 Democrats (yes, including Leiberman and Sanders) wanted single-payer, we'd have single-payer. It's not the GOP that prevented it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just scrap it and go to single-payer.

Some would argue that this has been the plan all along. Drive prices through the roof by adding massive inefficiencies to an already overregulated system, ramp up taxes/fees in the name of propping the system up, then proclaim the entire project a failure and use the new revenue stream as the monetary base for implementing a single-payer system. In the short-term, the tech firms and insurance companies get to line their pockets. What's not to love?

I love the "some would argue" line. What, are you afraid to admit that YOU are the some? Don't want people to think that you're incredibly paranoid (as you would truly have to be to believe this)?

It may not have been the plan all along, but there are clearly a lot of Dems that will use any Obamacare failures to push for single payer.

Of course. But that's not the same as what's he's claiming.

Personally, I don't think Obamacare will ever be scrapped even if it is a failure. What will happen is a slow sort of metamorphosis to single payer, which nobody will ever acknowledge while it's happening. (Actually, you could say that ever since Medicare was first enacted that's been inevitable anyhow.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Just because some RINO's had some touchy-feely "democrat light" health plan doesn't mean it was "THE" Republican plan. Don't go trying to blame the failures of your party elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then Obama tried to reform healthcare and went for single payer, which was shot down by his political opponents on the right.

You mean back when he had an unbreakable supermajority in both houses? When Democrats ran everything?

Anything Obama wanted passed could get passed. The evidence to that statement is the #### sandwich law we're discussing today.

Just wondering.....if you compared what Obama proposed to what was actually passed? I cursory look will show you that what was passed was a shell of what he proposed. And most of the gutting came from appeasing the "blue bloods". I can only imagine the amount of cliff jumping we'd have by the GOP if Obama got exactly what he proposed. What we have today is essentially what the GOP wanted two decades ago....we'll see how it works.

Just because some RINO's had some touchy-feely "democrat light" health plan doesn't mean it was "THE" Republican plan. Don't go trying to blame the failures of your party elsewhere.

In before your whiny "but no, I'm an independent" bs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...and if we're going to retrace history, it was Obama's petty "elections have consequences, I won" and "Republicans can help, but they need to get on the back of the bus" didn't help swing any Republican votes his way.

If Obama hadn't have been such a complete ### hat... with his popularity combined with Democratic majorities in both houses and several RINO votes that were very gettable, we could have had a really solid healthcare reform bill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you're saying they attempted to compromise to get GOP votes because they couldn't get enough Democrat votes. It's not the GOP's fault that 60 out of 60 Democrats didn't want single-payer or whatever other stuff Obama wanted. Like I said before, if 60 Democrats (yes, including Leiberman and Sanders) wanted single-payer, we'd have single-payer. It's not the GOP that prevented it.

Yes, this is true, as I said before. If all 60 Senate Dems had been solid votes for single-payer, we would have it. With that said, Republicans did have an influence on the process, both because of imperfect information (not knowing how everyone would vote or who would hold all the Senate seats) and due to an attempt to have it be a bipartisan law.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.