ShamrockPride
Footballguy
Dammit. I hope Luck suffers a setback next week, so Matt can keep relying on Fleen.
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Fleener (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter haterade
- Start date
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I had Fleener on my bench last week, and even though he went off, I kind of threw that performance away since it was mainly due to being paired with an offensively challenged QB. Fleener didn't make a blip on the early rankings radar this week. But now knowing that Luck is out, Fleener is looking like a TE1 this week. Amirite?
Who are you starting Fleener over this week and why? I'm considering over Michael Crabtree and Ameer Abdullah. thoughts?
Who are you starting Fleener over this week and why? I'm considering over Michael Crabtree and Ameer Abdullah. thoughts?
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
would rather keep an eye on D.Allen being active, cant throw to him if he's not in the game
Koya
Footballguy
i had rodgers,dropped him for fleener.
Curious if I should go back. Will see how this progresses.
ETA: Still leaning Fleener this week, but year long I like Rodgers by a good amount.
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Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Good observation. And I own Allen as well, but even when healthy, he's been an afterthought in terms of targets, mostly used as a 6th lineman. I won't be afraid to roll with Fleener if Allen is active, though I may temper my expectations.
Kwai Chang Caine
Footballguy
I used Fleener last week in an FFPC over Hill and even though hill had three TDs, Fleener out scored him in that format.
This week I'm considering Fleener over Amari Cooper who will have a stiff test against Denver's D.
The news of Allen being active though is giving me pause...
This week I'm considering Fleener over Amari Cooper who will have a stiff test against Denver's D.
The news of Allen being active though is giving me pause...
FootballGuru
Footballguy
Officially Luck is INACTIVE now.
Koya
Footballguy
This is the issue - though I'm not sure if it is (or isn't) true.
Does someone have something more substantive than the above to discuss on this issue?
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I'm still rolling with Fleener though I'm not nearly as bullish now that Allen is active.
Kwai Chang Caine
Footballguy
Looks like a mistake playing him. Guy had one catch for 4 yards and hasn't been on the field since. All Allen and some guy named Doyle.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
played him over Vereen, both losers
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
FML, played him over Barnidge last minute after seeing Baltimore is ranked toughest D against opposing TEs, stupid, STUPID. Saw Hasselbeck was in again and figured he'd lean on him again.
purestrength
Footballguy
Unless I'm left with zero other choices, I'll never start Fleener when Allen is active again.
Kwai Chang Caine
Footballguy
Well...he did spend a lot of time double teaming clowney and/or Watt so that was obviously game plan. He had one end zone target. Woulda been nice if he hauled it in...
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
If it's any consolation KCC, I rolled a dud with him too in one of the two leagues I own him. 
I'm also encouraged by that red zone look he had. For redraft purposes, there are a number of TE's I like better than Allen/Fleener because when they are on the field together, too often they cancel each other out. But in a startup dynasty I got into earlier this year, I took both Allen/Fleener ahead of some bigger TE names. They are both young and talented and in the right situation. An injury to either makes the other a very startable borderline TE1. And moving forward, if the Colts let Fleener walk, that only increases Allen's long term value and vice versa. Likely one or the other has to go in the offseason as they are up against the salary cap. Moving forward, I think the lesson learned is obvious. Do not start either Indy TE if both Allen/Fleener are active, provided you have no better options.
I'm also encouraged by that red zone look he had. For redraft purposes, there are a number of TE's I like better than Allen/Fleener because when they are on the field together, too often they cancel each other out. But in a startup dynasty I got into earlier this year, I took both Allen/Fleener ahead of some bigger TE names. They are both young and talented and in the right situation. An injury to either makes the other a very startable borderline TE1. And moving forward, if the Colts let Fleener walk, that only increases Allen's long term value and vice versa. Likely one or the other has to go in the offseason as they are up against the salary cap. Moving forward, I think the lesson learned is obvious. Do not start either Indy TE if both Allen/Fleener are active, provided you have no better options.
NeverEnough
Footballguy
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Shutout
Footballguy
Snorkelson
Footballguy
I've been trying to unload fleener as a throw in on deals, bet I get offers now.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Fleener to NO could be huge.
Snorkelson
Footballguy
Meanwhile, yeldon and maxx Williams owners are groaning......
gianmarco
Footballguy
I'm not quite sure I'm understanding the love for him. It's not as if he wasn't already playing with an elite QB for all 4 years of his career, especially a guy who was his QB in college as well.
Despite that, on an offense with plenty of targets to go around, he's maxed out at 54 receptions as a career high and had 4 or less TDs in 3 of his 4 years. D. Allen was absent the 2nd half of 2014 and non existent in 2015. Fleener has had 85-95 targets in the last 3 years. The opportunities were there and he never took advantage of them. Ben Watson only had 110 targets last year but simply did much more with them.
I guess it's possible that he somehow turns into a better TE than he is, but I'd have felt a lot better about the move if he was stuck with a below average QB as a reason for his average production to date. Playing with Luck is hardly an excuse and I'm not sure we should be expecting much more than he's done, especially with an aging Brees.
Despite that, on an offense with plenty of targets to go around, he's maxed out at 54 receptions as a career high and had 4 or less TDs in 3 of his 4 years. D. Allen was absent the 2nd half of 2014 and non existent in 2015. Fleener has had 85-95 targets in the last 3 years. The opportunities were there and he never took advantage of them. Ben Watson only had 110 targets last year but simply did much more with them.
I guess it's possible that he somehow turns into a better TE than he is, but I'd have felt a lot better about the move if he was stuck with a below average QB as a reason for his average production to date. Playing with Luck is hardly an excuse and I'm not sure we should be expecting much more than he's done, especially with an aging Brees.
ZWK
Footballguy
By my count, Fleener has played 21 games without Allen and with Luck: 15 in 2013, 2 2013 playoff games, 3 in 2014, and 1 in 2015. Per 16 games, he has averaged 59/749/6.9 on 98 targets in those games. Those are roughly fantasy TE9 numbers.
Most of those games were in 2013 which was only his second year in the league, which suggests that he has some upside above that. And his full-season numbers in 2014 were better than his 2013 numbers, even though Allen played a bunch in 2014. On the other hand, his 2015 numbers were pretty bad (though they mostly came with Hasselbeck, on an offense that was struggling in many ways).
Most of those games were in 2013 which was only his second year in the league, which suggests that he has some upside above that. And his full-season numbers in 2014 were better than his 2013 numbers, even though Allen played a bunch in 2014. On the other hand, his 2015 numbers were pretty bad (though they mostly came with Hasselbeck, on an offense that was struggling in many ways).
Ben Watson at 34 years old just blew away the best season he ever had as the starter in this offense and he spent the first 6 years of his career with that Brady.
Sounds to me like you were trying to get him at his cheap old price and are now shocked no one bit. Why would anybody take less than a 1st rounder?
The guy is reasonably young, has monster upside as the move-TE in NO with Drew Brees. Most owners rightfully expect at least a mid-first for an Eifert or a Kelce, so if I owned Fleener or Ladarius, I would look for a late 1st rounder - or more.
If you are trying to acquire either of them on the cheap, you've missed the boat by a couple months.
The guy is reasonably young, has monster upside as the move-TE in NO with Drew Brees. Most owners rightfully expect at least a mid-first for an Eifert or a Kelce, so if I owned Fleener or Ladarius, I would look for a late 1st rounder - or more.
If you are trying to acquire either of them on the cheap, you've missed the boat by a couple months.
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psychobillies
Footballguy
Watson blew up in his only full year with Brees. Look what happened to Graham when he left. He was putting up decent numbers, but it wasn't the same. Luck is a great QB, but obviously Payton's offense is friendlier to TE's than most places.
Shutout
Footballguy
Also, the COlts had a bit of a crisis identity going there. They stubbornly emphasized being a two TE team that liked to run, despite having Luck where the Saints have been "out of the closet" for years. They flaunt their willingness for Brees to fall in love with targeting his TE 10 times a game.
massraider
Footballguy
Wish I had him so I could trade him.
Stiff. Imagine if the Tin Man played tight end. Colts didn't keep Allen by accident.
A load of people competing for targets in NO, and he's no Jimmy Graham. Worst athlete they've had at TE in years.
Stiff. Imagine if the Tin Man played tight end. Colts didn't keep Allen by accident.
A load of people competing for targets in NO, and he's no Jimmy Graham. Worst athlete they've had at TE in years.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
Bitter much? Think what you want but he's a very good athlete. It wasn't a fluke that he was a first round pick and he can hardly drop more balls than Jimmy Graham did. I don't love the guy but you have to recognize the great situation and other than Cooks the rest of the players suck pretty badly.
massraider
Footballguy
Why would I be bitter?
I think he's not particularly good.
He was a 1st round pick. It wasn't a fluke that the team that used that 1st rounder on him let him go for a guy that was a 2nd rounder. The Colts said, 'Dang! we drafted this stiff in the 1st, lets keep the better player!'
That was not a fluke. Definitely not a fluke.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
You said he was the worst athlete they have had at T E for years, you need to quit making things up nonstop. I never said Fleener is that good but he's a good athlete and he'll catch plenty of balls in that offence.
massraider
Footballguy
Jimmy Graham. Better athlete.
Ben Watson. Better athlete.
Fleener is a good athlete, I guess. And still the worst they've had in years.
"Making things up non stop"? Are you for real?
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Not really? Cooks and who else exactly? Colston was released and in decline anyway. Snead had a nice year last season, but I don't see him as anything special. I think Fleener should see the most targets he's seen during his career by a substantial margin - assuming he capitalizes on them of course.
matttyl
Footballguy
It took less money to do that. Fleener got 18m guaranteed in New Orleans, Allen only got 16m guaranteed to stay.
Shutout
Footballguy
IMO, Allen fits the Colts better and Fleener fits the Saints better. WIn/win for everyone, all the way around.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Fleener may be a stiff, but he's going to have some monster seasons in NO. Not Jimmy Graham monster, but he's going to put up better numbers than his numbers without allen in the line up. I'm going to go ahead and call 700 and 10.
matttyl
Footballguy
Any reason to think he won't do the 74/825/6 that 34/35 year old Ben Watson had last year? For what it's worth Colston is also gone, so his 67 targets will need to go somewhere.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
A lot of time between now and the season and much to be decided on so I have no idea about catch numbers. Who knows? If WIllie Snead can look viable in that offense then I wouldn't be surprised if Snead caught 90 and Fleener only got 50 OR if Fleener caught 90. But I think if he plays all the games, you almost have to think he can get 8-10 TDs in that offense.
massraider
Footballguy
Shutout
Footballguy
Yeah, don't let it happen again
.In all seriousness, though, since we had a year to see Graham in Seattle, if that were the only thing we had ever seen of Graham, would we be thinking of him and Gronk as these two guys that were clearly in a tier by themselves? Probably not. If all we had to go by was what we saw last year, we'd probably say Gronk, then reed and Kelce. And we would likely say Ben Watson must have been Gronk when he was ten years younger if he is still doing what he did last year at 34.
My point is, I think its a combination of all things that make or break these players and I think that it is because we have seen the equation of "Brees + any TE seems to = TE1" that people can legitimately forecast Fleener pretty highly because we see that in today's NFL, some of these TEs can do some serious damage IF targeted a lot (and we think it is likely Fleener will be now, where he wasn't before).
Before last year, I always thought Jordan Reed was like a cheap version of Aaron Hernandez, except he hadn't ever really done anything. Then he actually gets used and all of a sudden he is justifying the numbers, especially in fantasy. But you know, at the end of the season, he TRULY looked like he had taken another step and he had arrived. And a lot of that is he got in the reps and delivered and one thing fed the other. And that is what you get a lot of in New Orleans.
I don't want to make a case for Fleener being a top 3-5 TE next year or say it is a shoe in but I do think the scenario in Indy held him back, fantasy-wise and now that scenario is much more inviting for him.
Yeah, he should hang in/around the Top 5 TEs this year. He's catching Brees on the wrong side of the hill, but when you run the numbers I'd take Fleener over everyone except Gronk/Reed/Olsen/Kelce/Eifert. He's right in the mix with L Green.
Futz
Footballguy
I agree that Fleener is in no way as fluid of an athlete as Graham but he has enough ability and the opportunity to be top 8 TE this year. Brees started to show some lack of deep ball accuracy(shoulder injury induced or advancing age or both) and I could see him going underneath more in a Phil Rivers sort of way to finish his career.
