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Dynasty: Josh Gordon is not a top tier player...right? (1 Viewer)

Concept Coop

Footballguy
Posted it in the dyansty thread, but figured it's worth it's own conversation:

Is Gordon being overrated a bit, if treated as a top 5 overall player? Or even a top 5 WR? He had a monster year, is a physical freak and is, potentially, a special player. But I think we're overlooking some questions if we expect his 2013 production to continue.

The change in staff is a very concerning variable for Gordon. He played with poor QBs, but his situation was a big plus for him, despite that. Cleveland led the league in passing attempts, and the passes thrown Gordon's way were actually quite catchable. He was put in a situation to play to his strengths, and wasn't pushed to do much outside of them.

A lot of his yardage was racked up in bunches after missed tackles or poor angles, and while he had plenty to do with that and will continue to run away from defenders in the future--see:Cruz, Victor--those plays vary from year to year. Gordon didn't show the ability to dominate in the redzone or beat double coverage. Not to say he can't, but they're two important questions when talking about a top 5 startup pick. Dez Bryant got more redzone attention than anyone outside of Calvin and still finished with 13 TDs - many in the redzone. Could Gordon do the same? In a diffferent offense, and in a season where a couple of his 50+ yard TDs are tipped or otherwise go the other way, he might have to.

I don't think Gordon belongs in the top tier, consisting of Calvin, Dez, Green, Thomas, and Julio. He'd have a valid argument without the off-the-field issues, but not considering them. In fact, I think Alshon Jeffery is a better dynasty own right now. His numbers weren't far behind Gordon's and they came in a more repeatable fashion; he showed that he can beat double teams, dominate in traffic, in the redzone, and his situation is much more stable. We know what to expect. And, most importantly, he's not one strike away from missing a season and putting his career in jeopardy.

Gordon has put his ability to earn money at risk many times in the past, including last season. He got kicked out of two schools and failed multiple tests at Baylor, at least, if not Utah, too. Despite his GM not being a fan of his going into the season, Gordon still got popped for a banned substance. Having a lot to lose hasn't been enough motivation in the past, and past behavior is the best idicator we have for future behavior.

There's plenty of upside with this kid, but I don't see the margin for error needed for a player like him, when spending a first round startup pick. I wouldn't feel comfortable paying that price for Gordon when there are 5 or 6 like prospects with significantly less risk and equal price tags. I think his baseline will prove to be closer to 90/1300/8--very nice numbers. But is that production worth the price paid, considering the risk?

 
I have zero interest in paying top prices for Gordon; there's too much risk involved (as you outlined).

On the other hand, I have zero interest in selling Gordon at a discount based on the risk involved.

 
i think he is a great player but i'm not buying at current prices until i have a sense of what his QB, coach and the playcalling look like. he's a hold, even at a premium.

 
It is likely people who own Gordon didnt pay much for him. So the risk is small in my opinion. I obtained him in a in a supplement draft our league had the year he entered the NFL late for $100 BBID bucks. Didnt waste an early draft pick on him and didnt trade away a top player for him.

I am a fan, but yes there is risk.

 
He is going to command the same price in August that he will now. I have absolutely no concerns about him once training camp starts, but between now and then? Oh yeah. Why bother paying the premium now when you don't know if he'll go dip #### between now and then? Wait it out and if he stays clean pay the same price in August that you will now. Imho, there is no issue with him on the field, regardless of all the changes.

 
Look at his QBs

Look at his numbers.

/discussion
If it was that simple, maybe. But it's really not. At all. If you told me his 2013 situation was going to continue for the next 10 years, I'd be doing backflips as a Gordon owner.
I watch him every. single. sunday.

I egt insta cred right there... watching the Browns. little to nothing to cheer for... so when the O is on the field I watch Gordon CLOSELY.

Believe me when I say, he hasnt scratched the surface of his potential. When he sorts out some of his drops, gets a legit QB - his fantasy value will be top 3 certified.

Just look at how few TDs he scores in the red zone - that's on piss poor QBing.

 
It is likely people who own Gordon didnt pay much for him. So the risk is small in my opinion. I obtained him in a in a supplement draft our league had the year he entered the NFL late for $100 BBID bucks. Didnt waste an early draft pick on him and didnt trade away a top player for him.

I am a fan, but yes there is risk.
The price paid to acquire him is a sunk cost -- it's completely irrelevant to the guy's value. He's currently seen by many as a top tier asset -- but one beer this offseason and that will plummet, and really hurt your team in the process. He's HUGELY risky. I'd be looking to move him for AJG, Julio, DT, Dez -- even if I had to add to him to get the safer stud WR1.

 
Look at his QBs

Look at his numbers.

/discussion
If it was that simple, maybe. But it's really not. At all. If you told me his 2013 situation was going to continue for the next 10 years, I'd be doing backflips as a Gordon owner.
I watch him every. single. sunday.

I egt insta cred right there... watching the Browns. little to nothing to cheer for... so when the O is on the field I watch Gordon CLOSELY.

Believe me when I say, he hasnt scratched the surface of his potential. When he sorts out some of his drops, gets a legit QB - his fantasy value will be top 3 certified.

Just look at how few TDs he scores in the red zone - that's on piss poor QBing.
Absurd hyperbole. It's pretty likely that we just saw his career year. 1600 yard WR seasons don't exactly grow on trees. He's not Jerry Rice man.

 
It is likely people who own Gordon didnt pay much for him. So the risk is small in my opinion. I obtained him in a in a supplement draft our league had the year he entered the NFL late for $100 BBID bucks. Didnt waste an early draft pick on him and didnt trade away a top player for him.

I am a fan, but yes there is risk.
The price paid to acquire him is a sunk cost -- it's completely irrelevant to the guy's value. He's currently seen by many as a top tier asset -- but one beer this offseason and that will plummet, and really hurt your team in the process. He's HUGELY risky. I'd be looking to move him for AJG, Julio, DT, Dez -- even if I had to add to him to get the safer stud WR1.
If he is 21 he can drink a beer, he shouldnt drive though.

 
I watch him every. single. sunday.

I egt insta cred right there... watching the Browns. little to nothing to cheer for... so when the O is on the field I watch Gordon CLOSELY.

Believe me when I say, he hasnt scratched the surface of his potential. When he sorts out some of his drops, gets a legit QB - his fantasy value will be top 3 certified.

Just look at how few TDs he scores in the red zone - that's on piss poor QBing.
Situation is more than the QB throwing the ball. Matt Cassel was a major plus for Dwayne Bowe. John Kitna was a major plus for Dez Bryant.

Gordon got plenty of quality, deep targets in Cleveland. Put him a WCO and his situation is likely worse, even if the QB is much better.

 
It is likely people who own Gordon didnt pay much for him. So the risk is small in my opinion. I obtained him in a in a supplement draft our league had the year he entered the NFL late for $100 BBID bucks. Didnt waste an early draft pick on him and didnt trade away a top player for him.

I am a fan, but yes there is risk.
The price paid to acquire him is a sunk cost -- it's completely irrelevant to the guy's value. He's currently seen by many as a top tier asset -- but one beer this offseason and that will plummet, and really hurt your team in the process. He's HUGELY risky. I'd be looking to move him for AJG, Julio, DT, Dez -- even if I had to add to him to get the safer stud WR1.
If he is 21 he can drink a beer, he shouldnt drive though.
You should probably read up on the NFL's substance abuse policy. Particularly since you own Josh Gordon.

 
Look at his QBs

Look at his numbers.

/discussion
If it was that simple, maybe. But it's really not. At all. If you told me his 2013 situation was going to continue for the next 10 years, I'd be doing backflips as a Gordon owner.
I watch him every. single. sunday.

I egt insta cred right there... watching the Browns. little to nothing to cheer for... so when the O is on the field I watch Gordon CLOSELY.

Believe me when I say, he hasnt scratched the surface of his potential. When he sorts out some of his drops, gets a legit QB - his fantasy value will be top 3 certified.

Just look at how few TDs he scores in the red zone - that's on piss poor QBing.
Absurd hyperbole. It's pretty likely that we just saw his career year. 1600 yard WR seasons don't exactly grow on trees. He's not Jerry Rice man.
you're right... he's not jerry Rice.

Rice averaged 78yds/game over his first 2 years

Gordon is averaging 82yds/game

He's better :tebow:

 
I agree with the others - for top 5 prices, I'm targeting the other guys. I don't have him as a top 5 dynasty WR.

 
As someone who sold on Gordon during his rookie season (in a deal that netted Alfred Morris in a RB-heavy league, so I don't feel TOO terrible about it) I still believe there's value in cashing out, especially if someone is willing to pay that top-5 to top-7 dynasty WR price tag.

He's undeniably talented, but a couple of things about his situation this year that were actually beneficial:

1) Absolute target monster on his team

2) Mad Scientist offensive coach that has historically had tremendous success his first year in a new place (Cleveland as OC, Carolina as OC)

3) Poor team overall, leading to a need to throw the ball

4) No running game to speak of, also leading to a need to throw the ball

I think it's quite likely that all four of those change prior to 2014:

1) The Browns have already talked up the need for more weapons in the passing game, plus a better QB may not lock onto Gordon the way Weeden/Campbell/Hoyer did

2) Chud being replaced by Pettine (if he is, in fact, hired) will have an impact… no one knows exactly what that will be

3) Hardest to quantify, obviously, but the bevy of draft picks and new regime, plus cap space if I am not mistaken all suggest talent level should rise

4) Dion Lewis returning to health alone would improve the running game, plus they're pretty likely to address the position in either FA or the draft

Even if you consider the situation as a net even from 2013 to 2014 and cancel out likely upgrades to the surrounding talent, changes in coaching staff, and likely changes in offensive philosophy, I don't think you can minimize the quite substantial risk presented by his current status in the NFL testing program. Gordon was already on a short leash considering his college background, supplemental draft status, and generally unconventional path to the league...

… and he STILL got busted, resulting in his suspension to start this season.

There's no way I'd pay the prices he's commanding in a start up, and no way I'd buy at the prices he's commanding right now in dynasty trades (at least in my leagues). If I owned him, I'd certainly be looking to cash out if anyone came knocking with a reasonable offer. Just would prefer my risks taken with much less expensive investments.

In a redraft - sign me up.

 
Look at his QBs

Look at his numbers.

/discussion
If it was that simple, maybe. But it's really not. At all. If you told me his 2013 situation was going to continue for the next 10 years, I'd be doing backflips as a Gordon owner.
I watch him every. single. sunday.

I egt insta cred right there... watching the Browns. little to nothing to cheer for... so when the O is on the field I watch Gordon CLOSELY.

Believe me when I say, he hasnt scratched the surface of his potential. When he sorts out some of his drops, gets a legit QB - his fantasy value will be top 3 certified.

Just look at how few TDs he scores in the red zone - that's on piss poor QBing.
Absurd hyperbole. It's pretty likely that we just saw his career year. 1600 yard WR seasons don't exactly grow on trees. He's not Jerry Rice man.
you're right... he's not jerry Rice.

Rice averaged 78yds/game over his first 2 years

Gordon is averaging 82yds/game

He's better :tebow:
You lost all your cred in like 2 post
 
Were his target numbers so out of whack compared to other top wrs? I didn't think so but I didn't follow very closely.

"A lot of his yardage was racked up on missed tackles and poor tackling". -- You just described every WR in the league.

 
You absolutely would not. Campbell and Weeden are awful. Neither are NFL starter worthy.
Bad QBs don't always hinder fantasy production. It's one part of a wide collection of factors. I'd much rather have my WR playing in Philly with Foles than with Brady in the current NE offense. Or Ben. I'd still take Ben and obviously Brady over Foles as NFL QBs. I'd much rather have Cameron and Gordon in Cleveland with Chud, Norm, and Weedon than in Seattle with Wilson playing safe, running the read option, and grinding out the clock.

 
Look at his QBs

Look at his numbers.

/discussion
If it was that simple, maybe. But it's really not. At all. If you told me his 2013 situation was going to continue for the next 10 years, I'd be doing backflips as a Gordon owner.
I watch him every. single. sunday.

I egt insta cred right there... watching the Browns. little to nothing to cheer for... so when the O is on the field I watch Gordon CLOSELY.

Believe me when I say, he hasnt scratched the surface of his potential. When he sorts out some of his drops, gets a legit QB - his fantasy value will be top 3 certified.

Just look at how few TDs he scores in the red zone - that's on piss poor QBing.
Absurd hyperbole. It's pretty likely that we just saw his career year. 1600 yard WR seasons don't exactly grow on trees. He's not Jerry Rice man.
you're right... he's not jerry Rice.

Rice averaged 78yds/game over his first 2 years

Gordon is averaging 82yds/game

He's better :tebow:
You lost all your cred in like 2 post
C'mon man.. use your head a little. I was obviously being sarcastic

But statistically, yes... he's been better than Rice over their first two years.

 
targets:

Player Pos Tm Targets Rec Rec % Utilized Plays Run Att 1 Pierre Garcon WR WAS 182 113 62.1 184.0 2 2 Andre Johnson WR HOU 181 109 60.2 181.0 0 3 A.J. Green WR CIN 178 98 55.1 178.0 0 4 Brandon Marshall WR CHI 164 100 61.0 164.0 0 5 Antonio Brown WR PIT 163 110 67.5 170.0 7 6 Vincent Jackson WR TBB 160 78 48.8 161.0 1 7 Dez Bryant WR DAL 159 93 58.5 160.0 1 8 Josh Gordon WR CLE 159 87 54.7 164.0 5 - See more at: http://www.kffl.com/fantasy-football/targets/#sthash.VFsluMIl.dpuf

not out of whack.. at all

 
C'mon man.. use your head a little. I was obviously being sarcastic

But statistically, yes... he's been better than Rice over their first two years.
Only if you ignore the fact that Rice only started 4 games his rookie season. He had 20 touchdowns and 2,500 yards and he only started 19 games during that span.

 
You absolutely would not. Campbell and Weeden are awful. Neither are NFL starter worthy.
Bad QBs don't always hinder fantasy production. It's one part of a wide collection of factors. I'd much rather have my WR playing in Philly with Foles than with Brady in the current NE offense. Or Ben. I'd still take Ben and obviously Brady over Foles as NFL QBs. I'd much rather have Cameron and Gordon in Cleveland with Chud, Norm, and Weedon than in Seattle with Wilson playing safe, running the read option, and grinding out the clock.
I agree. But you would not be doing backflips if that was his situation for the next ten years. You make it like his situation was perfect and can't get better. In reality, his situation can get ALOT better. Scary.

 
As well as every WR in the league.

If you believe that--cool. What % of Gordons TDs came outside the redzone? Does think that apply to every player in the league? It looks like it applies to Desean Jackson, Mike Wallace and Torrey Smith to me.
 
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I just think we shouldn't forget what Chud put together his first time in Cleveland with Derek Anderson, Braylon Edwards, and Kellen Winslow. Edwards had a career year, and never approached those numbers again. Folks said the same thing - put him with a real QB, his situation was terrible, team was so bad, etc.

Just because the QB situation wasn't ideal this year doesn't mean the situation as a whole wasn't beneficial for Gordon…

 
I agree. But you would not be doing backflips if that was his situation for the next ten years. You make it like his situation was perfect and can't get better. In reality, his situation can get ALOT better. Scary.
I very strongly disagree. I don't see many situations better than this last season for Josh Gordon. He put up 114 YPG in Clevelend. 1,828 yards per 16 games. Where does he go and best that?

 
I just think we shouldn't forget what Chud put together his first time in Cleveland with Derek Anderson, Braylon Edwards, and Kellen Winslow. Edwards had a career year, and never approached those numbers again. Folks said the same thing - put him with a real QB, his situation was terrible, team was so bad, etc.

Just because the QB situation wasn't ideal this year doesn't mean the situation as a whole wasn't beneficial for Gordon…
:goodposting:

 
C'mon man.. use your head a little. I was obviously being sarcastic

But statistically, yes... he's been better than Rice over their first two years.
Only if you ignore the fact that Rice only started 4 games his rookie season. He had 20 touchdowns and 2,500 yards and he only started 19 games during that span.
Wrong.

Very wrong.

I took Rices first two full seasons. 16+16

Gordon has a better yds/game average

 
Ok, so definitely not a target "monster".

So 8th in targets with backup caliber qbs throwing to him. If that's an ideal situation to some of you...well then, ok.

 
Ok, so definitely not a target "monster".

So 8th in targets with backup caliber qbs throwing to him. If that's an ideal situation to some of you...well then, ok.
Braylon Edwards went on to dominate once he got an NFL QB, right? Once he got out of that crumby situation?

 
Ok, so definitely not a target "monster".

So 8th in targets with backup caliber qbs throwing to him. If that's an ideal situation to some of you...well then, ok.
In two less games you add 20+targets to his numbers for the games missed and he is top 3 in targets last year.

 
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Ok, so definitely not a target "monster".

So 8th in targets with backup caliber qbs throwing to him. If that's an ideal situation to some of you...well then, ok.
Braylon Edwards went on to dominate once he got an NFL QB, right? Once he got out of that crumby situation?
Wasn't Edwards notorious for his awful hands? Tons of bad drops, unfocused, some off the field issues as well I think.

 
So last year the big story was Norv Turner was coming to town.

Now he's gone. Of course have to see who comes in but still... That's not a big deal, at all?

 
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Do me a favour - add together Rice's FIRST TWO YEARS... he played in 32 games, not 20 like you're suggesting.
Started. He started 19 games. I stated that, not suggested it.
Wow... so you wanna play that game?

Ok Rice's First Season of "starting every game" (year 2) v Gordon's year 2

Rice - 1570yds / 98.1

Gordon - 1646yds / 117.6

16 games v 14 games

Better?

 
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