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Indefinite New England Patriots Thread

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14 hours ago, Breezy H2O said:

The good news is that you guys get a decade of Trevor Lawrence after this!!!

You really think the Pats can end up with #1? Keep dreaming 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/23/2020 at 12:01 AM, Breezy H2O said:

I just looked at your non-divisional schedule:

@Seahawks

Raiders

@Chiefs

Broncos

49ers

Ravens

@Texans

Cardinals

@Chargers

@Rams

 

I spy 5 winnable games. The winnability of those last two road west coast games will 100% on what your record is at that time.

The Patriots getting Trevor Lawrence will be great for the league.

You really think Pats are going to pick #1?

Edited by ratbast

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44 minutes ago, ratbast said:

You really think Pats are going to pick #1?

I don’t. I think Bellicheck would not tank. And I think Jax has Lawrence all wrapped up.

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I still have a hard time seeing NE go from +195 point scoring differential and +1250 yardage differential last year to god awful this year. Sure, a lot of that came in the cakewalk of the first half of the season.

Across the last 8 games and the playoff loss, without much contribution from the offense and against tougher competition, the Pats held a +188 yardage differential advantage. They had a -5 point scoring differential, but the offense turned the ball over and allowed 3 TDs on a fumble and 2 INTs. The point being, the NE defense over those 9 games only allowed 18 ppg while the offense was banged up and not doing a whole lot. Overall, NE only scored 16 fewer points from the year before (when they won the SB) . . . it was the defensive that allowed 100 fewer points than in 2018. Offensively, the team scored 47 TD in 2018 vs. 42 TD in 2019. Yet for some reason, people made it out like the offense was completely inept (which admittedly at times may have been the case).

NE has endured plenty of personnel losses over the years and didn't miss them too much . . . with the obvious exception being they have not had to restock at the QB position. We will have to see how things play out, but IMO the offense would not do any better with a 43-year-old Brady that clearly was not into the offense and didn't really want to be there anymore than it would with an eager Stidham and the same cast of characters on offense. With better health, I think the 2020 offense should be in line to do about the same as what they did last year (which was rank 15th in net yardage).

The team will go as far as the defense can take them . . . the offense scored 42 TD last year . . . the defense only allowed 20 TD. It's safe to project the defense to allow more points this year . . . but to the point where NE only wins 4-6 games? I don't see it. Plus we all know BB is chomping at the bit to show the universe he can win without Brady. I just don't see NE imploding, even if on the surface it looks like they don't have much talent or big names on the team. But that's why they (hopefully) play the games.

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59 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I still have a hard time seeing NE go from +195 point scoring differential and +1250 yardage differential last year to god awful this year. Sure, a lot of that came in the cakewalk of the first half of the season.

Across the last 8 games and the playoff loss, without much contribution from the offense and against tougher competition, the Pats held a +188 yardage differential advantage. They had a -5 point scoring differential, but the offense turned the ball over and allowed 3 TDs on a fumble and 2 INTs. The point being, the NE defense over those 9 games only allowed 18 ppg while the offense was banged up and not doing a whole lot. Overall, NE only scored 16 fewer points from the year before (when they won the SB) . . . it was the defensive that allowed 100 fewer points than in 2018. Offensively, the team scored 47 TD in 2018 vs. 42 TD in 2019. Yet for some reason, people made it out like the offense was completely inept (which admittedly at times may have been the case).

NE has endured plenty of personnel losses over the years and didn't miss them too much . . . with the obvious exception being they have not had to restock at the QB position. We will have to see how things play out, but IMO the offense would not do any better with a 43-year-old Brady that clearly was not into the offense and didn't really want to be there anymore than it would with an eager Stidham and the same cast of characters on offense. With better health, I think the 2020 offense should be in line to do about the same as what they did last year (which was rank 15th in net yardage).

The team will go as far as the defense can take them . . . the offense scored 42 TD last year . . . the defense only allowed 20 TD. It's safe to project the defense to allow more points this year . . . but to the point where NE only wins 4-6 games? I don't see it. Plus we all know BB is chomping at the bit to show the universe he can win without Brady. I just don't see NE imploding, even if on the surface it looks like they don't have much talent or big names on the team. But that's why they (hopefully) play the games.

This a a solid post! Also, mention that they lost their road grading full back. Brady refused to use rookies. Andrews out for the season. Sony ran weak for some reason. No TE worth a lick. Sanu injured. Brown and Gordon f up their way off the team. Some of it will be remedied. Then some is a big question, mostly Stidham. For me, if we see .500 ball with improvement over the season I would be content with Stidham. Seems like last year was the Super Bowl hangover year for the team. Not that the Patriots are a playoff team this year. But I think they could be competitive at least with replenish of depth and the outstanding secondary and pass rush. 

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5 hours ago, ratbast said:

You really think the Pats can end up with #1? Keep dreaming 

Straight up? Nah. After a trade? Of course.

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Bucky Brooks on NFL.com commented that NE will actually be better this year without Brady and he was holding them back last year. Essentially the offense should have more variety, Stidham will spread the ball around, and Stidham Is way more mobile. (Although he does think BUF has closed the gap.)

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On 6/24/2020 at 7:10 PM, Breezy H2O said:

Straight up? Nah. After a trade? Of course.

I’m thinking only way that could possibly happen is if the team that comes in last already has their franchise QB in place, and that would be odd. No team in need of a QB is going to trade TLawrence for anything. 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/24/2020 at 12:57 PM, Anarchy99 said:

I still have a hard time seeing NE go from +195 point scoring differential and +1250 yardage differential last year to god awful this year. Sure, a lot of that came in the cakewalk of the first half of the season.

 

 

 

Edited by GordonGekko

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14 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Bucky Brooks on NFL.com commented that NE will actually be better this year without Brady and he was holding them back last year. Essentially the offense should have more variety, Stidham will spread the ball around, and Stidham Is way more mobile. (Although he does think BUF has closed the gap.)

Haha, Bucky is a funny guy. Lets see here, my view from 40k feet is that Brady was holding them back, yeah thats it. All that talent on offense and disinterested Brady just held them back, now they are going to put a real qb in there (one who is "interested") and this offense is going to soar; soar i tell ya!   

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Posted (edited)
On 6/27/2020 at 4:52 AM, NE_REVIVAL said:

Haha, Bucky is a funny guy. Lets see here, my view from 40k feet is that Brady was holding them back, yeah thats it. All that talent on offense and disinterested Brady just held them back, now they are going to put a real qb in there (one who is "interested") and this offense is going to soar; soar i tell ya!   

 

 

Edited by GordonGekko

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24 minutes ago, GordonGekko said:

 

Brooks is an analyst.  On major broadcasts, there are staff writers. There is not enough legitimate NFL news, even with  the draft and large roster and FA and all that, to cover a 24/7/365 news cycle. It's just not possible. So broadcasts need to create different takes and different viewpoints to generate ratings/interest/discussion

What this means is just because an NFL analyst says something, it doesn't mean he actually believes it. I think Skip Bayless was interviewed once where he finally said the writers tell him and Stephen A Smith what to say and they just try to stir the pot as much as possible to get ratings.

The Patriots have a stable system in place. Continuity in coaching and developmental process they were able to refine over time. So it won't be a total dogfight all season. QB1's disproportionately impact a team's offense in the modern NFL, so losing Brady is just going to hurt, you can't avoid it.

Go back to basics

1) Can Stidham consistently get his team into the endzone (Classic Parcells)

2) Can the Patriots generate an effective pass rush WITHOUT blitzing in the 4th quarter ( Classic Walsh)

3) Have the Patriots recently had or in the process of being within three consecutive deep and productive drafts in a row ( Classic Walsh)

4) Can the team consistently win the turnover differential battle ( Classic Lombardi)

5) Can the team consistently net positive yardage against the differential on special teams ( i.e. how many yards do you lose or gain on each individual special teams play that ultimately determines your field position? )  ( Classic Parcells)

Andy Reid was able to get some of his Eagles QB1s to put up some impressive numbers. Some of the less than impressive guys put up pretty good numbers if you consider issues relative to their skill set and talent. Did it matter when many of those teams couldn't generate an effective pass rush in the critical 4th quarter?

The general quality of the draft in the two years BEFORE Stidham are going to say more about success than any fringe FA who the press touts as a difference maker.

Losing Brady is going to hurt as a matter of principle, even if he wasn't a QB1 in the same way losing Matthew Slater would hurt. Does closer by committee really work in MLB? People tend to work best with established roles. When you lose a pillar of consistency, you lose benchmarks upon which all others rely.

As a matter of resource management, ANY QB1 who makes close to market value money in the NFL is "holding his team back"  You would have to go back to classic Marino and those old Dolphins to find a QB1 where you could even begin to justify the cost impact/play impact of an individual player against the relative opportunity cost of using the resources elsewhere. Marino back then was that individually dominant for a short time.  Modern NFL QB1s outside their rookie deals brutalize their teams with their contracts relative to the cap. Injury attrition requires depth. Cheap depth that can produce only occurs with elite drafting. To get that kind of drafting defies the pan out rate for nearly all teams.

So yes, as a matter of principle, Brady's contract was holding this team back. But it's true for nearly every veteran QB1 in the NFL, so he's not alone. This is a SYSTEMATIC problem, not just one for the Patriots.

Last season Super Bowl winner was on rookie contract. I wonder what the team looks like when he gets a big contract. 

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7 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

Last season Super Bowl winner was on rookie contract. I wonder what the team looks like when he gets a big contract. 

This has been discussed in several other threads. Here is a list of SB winning QBs and their contracts for as far back as I could find them.

2019 - Mahomes - $4.5M (32nd)
2018 - Brady - $21.5M (12th)
2017 - Wentz $6M (27th)
2016 - Brady $13.8 (18th)
2015 - Peyton $17.5M (6th)
2014 - Brady $14.8M (12th)
2013 - Wilson $680K (53rd)
2012 - Flacco $8M (16th)
2011 - Eli $14.1M (5th)
2010 - Rodgers $6.5M (21st)
2009 - Bres - $10.7M (14th)
2008 - Big Ben - $8M (11th)
2007 - Eli - $10M (4th)
2006 - Peyton - $10.6M (6th)
2005 - Big Ben - $4.2M (14th)
2004 - Brady - $5M (8th)
2003 - Brady - $3.3M (13th)
2002 - Brad Johnson - $6.8M
2001 - Brady - $310K

So far, teams with QBs on big dollar deals haven't been able to secure a title. Other than the Giants with Eli, no other team has won with a Top 5 QB in terms of salary cap value. NE's first title only paying $310K is crazy (but they were paying Bledoe, so not quite the coup it would have been otherwise).

If I had to guess, KC will flame out once they have to start paying Mahomes and a bunch of other star players market value (that as of now are not costing them all that much).

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27 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

This has been discussed in several other threads. Here is a list of SB winning QBs and their contracts for as far back as I could find them.

2019 - Mahomes - $4.5M (32nd)
2018 - Brady - $21.5M (12th)
2017 - Wentz $6M (27th)
2016 - Brady $13.8 (18th)
2015 - Peyton $17.5M (6th)
2014 - Brady $14.8M (12th)
2013 - Wilson $680K (53rd)
2012 - Flacco $8M (16th)
2011 - Eli $14.1M (5th)
2010 - Rodgers $6.5M (21st)
2009 - Bres - $10.7M (14th)
2008 - Big Ben - $8M (11th)
2007 - Eli - $10M (4th)
2006 - Peyton - $10.6M (6th)
2005 - Big Ben - $4.2M (14th)
2004 - Brady - $5M (8th)
2003 - Brady - $3.3M (13th)
2002 - Brad Johnson - $6.8M
2001 - Brady - $310K

So far, teams with QBs on big dollar deals haven't been able to secure a title. Other than the Giants with Eli, no other team has won with a Top 5 QB in terms of salary cap value. NE's first title only paying $310K is crazy (but they were paying Bledoe, so not quite the coup it would have been otherwise).

If I had to guess, KC will flame out once they have to start paying Mahomes and a bunch of other star players market value (that as of now are not costing them all that much).

Foles in 2017 in case you want fix list. But point remains the same. Thanks for this list. Drafting QBs might be the most important aspect of title contenders now.

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4 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

Foles in 2017 in case you want fix list. But point remains the same. Thanks for this list. Drafting QBs might be the most important aspect of title contenders now.

I didn’t forget Foles. I listed Wentz as he played the majority of the season and had the bigger contract. It didn’t really matter either way for PHI . . . they didn’t have a big cap number for QBs that season. 

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7 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I didn’t forget Foles. I listed Wentz as he played the majority of the season and had the bigger contract. It didn’t really matter either way for PHI . . . they didn’t have a big cap number for QBs that season. 

Ok. Foles was 4 million I 2017 according to sportrac. So if you did list him it would strengthen the argument. 

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, Anarchy99 said:

I didn’t forget Foles. I listed Wentz as he played the majority of the season and had the bigger contract. It didn’t really matter either way for PHI . . . they didn’t have a big cap number for QBs that season. 

Another huge difference is the money spent on QB in the AFC vs. NFC for playoff teams. The AFC, with exception of Brady, paid their QBs very little. Lot of young talent on rookie contract in AFC(Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, etc...).

Edited by Blackbear

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1 hour ago, GordonGekko said:

 

Brooks is an analyst.  On major broadcasts, there are staff writers. There is not enough legitimate NFL news, even with  the draft and large roster and FA and all that, to cover a 24/7/365 news cycle. It's just not possible. So broadcasts need to create different takes and different viewpoints to generate ratings/interest/discussion

What this means is just because an NFL analyst says something, it doesn't mean he actually believes it. I think Skip Bayless was interviewed once where he finally said the writers tell him and Stephen A Smith what to say and they just try to stir the pot as much as possible to get ratings.

....

So yes, as a matter of principle, Brady's contract was holding this team back. But it's true for nearly every veteran QB1 in the NFL, so he's not alone. This is a SYSTEMATIC problem, not just one for the Patriots.

I agree with the top portion and much of the other things you said but I found the sound bite and Bucky wasn't referring to Brady's contract he was referring to his ability to play which I think is silly. If NE gets relatively the same amount of crippling injs\bad luck on offense this yr they will be much worse not better. But im on record as saying I doubt that happens and I think 6-10 is worst case scenario and with some solid def and better luck they could win 10 games. People can disagree, time will tell. 

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

This has been discussed in several other threads. Here is a list of SB winning QBs and their contracts for as far back as I could find them.

2019 - Mahomes - $4.5M (32nd)
2018 - Brady - $21.5M (12th)
2017 - Wentz $6M (27th)
2016 - Brady $13.8 (18th)
2015 - Peyton $17.5M (6th)
2014 - Brady $14.8M (12th)
2013 - Wilson $680K (53rd)
2012 - Flacco $8M (16th)
2011 - Eli $14.1M (5th)
2010 - Rodgers $6.5M (21st)
2009 - Bres - $10.7M (14th)
2008 - Big Ben - $8M (11th)
2007 - Eli - $10M (4th)
2006 - Peyton - $10.6M (6th)
2005 - Big Ben - $4.2M (14th)
2004 - Brady - $5M (8th)
2003 - Brady - $3.3M (13th)
2002 - Brad Johnson - $6.8M
2001 - Brady - $310K

So far, teams with QBs on big dollar deals haven't been able to secure a title. Other than the Giants with Eli, no other team has won with a Top 5 QB in terms of salary cap value. NE's first title only paying $310K is crazy (but they were paying Bledoe, so not quite the coup it would have been otherwise).

If I had to guess, KC will flame out once they have to start paying Mahomes and a bunch of other star players market value (that as of now are not costing them all that much).

You won't get an argument from me that large QB contracts are debilitating to their teams chances of winning SBs; I have felt all along that QBs particularly when older are much better served taking a little less. Most teams have no choice but to overpay them.

The list puts the lie to the recently popular narrative that Brady didn't really take significantly less all those years and that the money saved didn't factor all that much into the teams success; when it seems pretty obvious that it did, the only question is to what degree.  

 

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36 minutes ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

You won't get an argument from me that large QB contracts are debilitating to their teams chances of winning SBs; I have felt all along that QBs particularly when older are much better served taking a little less. Most teams have no choice but to overpay them.

The list puts the lie to the recently popular narrative that Brady didn't really take significantly less all those years and that the money saved didn't factor all that much into the teams success; when it seems pretty obvious that it did, the only question is to what degree.  

IMO, "lie" is a bit of a reach in terms of a word choice. It's extremely difficult to evaluate salary cap data and interpret the impact from those numbers.  Unfortunately, salary cap math is not the same as real math.

For starters, Brady's departure from NE this year left the team with a $13.5 million cap charge in dead money. Put another way, DEAD CAP ALLOCATED FOR BRADY would be the 19th highest paid QB for the 2020 season if it were an actual person.

Looking over the last three NE SB winning teams, I just posted that Brady's cap hit ranked 12th, 18th, and 12th. However, if they chose to apply $4.5 million in each of those 3 seasons (to account for the $13.5M), Brady would have ranked 2nd, 13th, and 2nd in terms of salary cap hits for those seasons. If that had been the case, would people still have been saying how little Brady was playing for? Remember, Brady would have been 37, 39, and 41. To be the second highest paid player at those ages may have been considered a lot of money. He may well have been worth it, but a lot of people would have said it's crazy to pay a 41 year old QB that kind of money.

Again, it's really hard to evaluate any of this. A lot depends on when players renew or extend contracts. It's not just as simple as looking up where a player ranked in salary cap charges in a given year,  as players signing new deals typically get paid better and players fulfilling their old deals are usually on the lower side of pay by the end of the contract.

Even if we say Brady took a little less and that benefited the team in some manor and helped them win more, in the long run that would have served to HELP Brady. For example, if he reached the point and said to NE I need to be the highest paid QB or close to it, NE may not have won 3 more SB's and Brady may not have been considered the GOAT. Personally, I think there would be plenty of people who would have said Brady was a good QB, but if he never won after 2004 I doubt he would have the same buzz surrounding him. I would feel confident that by giving back a few million dollars a year to NE, that ultimately allowed Brady to make 10x that amount in endorsements the past few years and allowed him to create the TB12 brand.

Certainly all of the salary cap stuff is debatable, and there can be multiple ways to look at the information and potentially conclude different things.

 

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1 hour ago, Anarchy99 said:

IMO, "lie" is a bit of a reach in terms of a word choice. It's extremely difficult to evaluate salary cap data and interpret the impact from those numbers.  Unfortunately, salary cap math is not the same as real math.

For starters, Brady's departure from NE this year left the team with a $13.5 million cap charge in dead money. Put another way, DEAD CAP ALLOCATED FOR BRADY would be the 19th highest paid QB for the 2020 season if it were an actual person.

Looking over the last three NE SB winning teams, I just posted that Brady's cap hit ranked 12th, 18th, and 12th. However, if they chose to apply $4.5 million in each of those 3 seasons (to account for the $13.5M), Brady would have ranked 2nd, 13th, and 2nd in terms of salary cap hits for those seasons. If that had been the case, would people still have been saying how little Brady was playing for? Remember, Brady would have been 37, 39, and 41. To be the second highest paid player at those ages may have been considered a lot of money. He may well have been worth it, but a lot of people would have said it's crazy to pay a 41 year old QB that kind of money.

Again, it's really hard to evaluate any of this. A lot depends on when players renew or extend contracts. It's not just as simple as looking up where a player ranked in salary cap charges in a given year,  as players signing new deals typically get paid better and players fulfilling their old deals are usually on the lower side of pay by the end of the contract.

Even if we say Brady took a little less and that benefited the team in some manor and helped them win more, in the long run that would have served to HELP Brady. For example, if he reached the point and said to NE I need to be the highest paid QB or close to it, NE may not have won 3 more SB's and Brady may not have been considered the GOAT. Personally, I think there would be plenty of people who would have said Brady was a good QB, but if he never won after 2004 I doubt he would have the same buzz surrounding him. I would feel confident that by giving back a few million dollars a year to NE, that ultimately allowed Brady to make 10x that amount in endorsements the past few years and allowed him to create the TB12 brand.

Certainly all of the salary cap stuff is debatable, and there can be multiple ways to look at the information and potentially conclude different things.

 

Ftr, "puts the lie to" is just an idiom I seldom get to use and couldn't pass it up, i wasn't trying to call anyone a liar but I do believe it is a false narrative that became popular recently when somebody wrote a biased "story".

I don't know what to make of all the cap maneuverings? Its like the aforementioned recent "story" where I believe the guy didn't start counting Bradys contracts until 2005. I was simply using your list of numbers of no big dollar SB winners. If we move cap numbers around and make it top 6 you have eli and peyton and brady all on the list twice. But whatevs u r correct on ten cap stuff being debatable so lets not do that.

Regarding the bolded1, "even if we say Brady took a little less" what do you mean even if we say? IMHO its a fact the only question is how much.

Regarding bolded2, "in the long run (taking a little less) helped Brady" YES! I agree completely it was to Brady's benefit and never meant to imply otherwise if that is what I did.   

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Posted (edited)
On 6/27/2020 at 11:56 AM, Anarchy99 said:

Again, it's really hard to evaluate any of this.

 

 

 

Edited by GordonGekko

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Rex Burkhead reworked his contract, with his salary dropping from $2.5 million to $1.05 million with a $500,000 signing bonus. The move frees up just under $1 million in cap space. Several people had suggested that he would be the odd man out and would be the one released in the NE backfield. That does not appear to be the case. As of now, the crowded backfield still has Michel, White, Burkhead, Harris, Bolden, and Vitale.

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Great news for the patriots 

https://twitter.com/mikereiss/status/1281985567740362753?s=21

With @FieldYates, reporting significant salary-cap news for Patriots: Settlements in compensation grievances with Antonio Brown ($4 million to team) and Aaron Hernandez ($2.55 million to team) have created space for the club. The Patriots' current cap space is $7.79 million.

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Posted (edited)

Jesus Christ Pats stay winning. I had read the consensus was that they'd have to pay all of the initial bonus... trying to see how much Brown officially got.

EDIT:
 

Quote

The Patriots had owed receiver Brown $9 million, and as part of the settlement, he will instead receive $5 million, per sources.

The settlement is notable, as some experts viewed the Patriots' chances of recouping any money as low. The Patriots gave Brown a $9 million signing bonus on Sept. 7, and half of it was to be paid on Sept. 23, three days after they cut him. The other half was to be paid in January.

ESPN

I have no idea how they wrangled this. CBA was clearly in favor of Brown in this case.

Edited by The Frankman

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On 7/10/2020 at 1:42 PM, Anarchy99 said:

Pats Will Go 5-11 . . . and that’s WITH Cam Newton. 

No chance.  5 seems like a floor and 11 a ceiling.  I'd be surprised if they didn't win between 7 and 9 games.

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NE has spoken to Terrelle Pryor. Not sure who would be the more desperate one in that scenario. 

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On 7/10/2020 at 3:42 PM, Anarchy99 said:

Pats Will Go 5-11 . . . and that’s WITH Cam Newton. 

Yikes, this is typical 40k foot view crap from someone who doesn't really know anything about the team.

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On 7/11/2020 at 3:37 PM, The Frankman said:

Jesus Christ Pats stay winning. I had read the consensus was that they'd have to pay all of the initial bonus... trying to see how much Brown officially got.

EDIT:
 

I have no idea how they wrangled this. CBA was clearly in favor of Brown in this case.

I am guessing that NE threatened to drag out the grievance and arbitration process and potentially would have called AB and / or other witnesses that may have put more black marks on Brown's already damaged reputation. Brown ended up getting $5 million of the $9 million bonus. IIRC, he got $1 million guaranteed last year. So if my math is right, he ended up getting $6 million to play in a single game. (I am not sure how much of the $1 million he was paid last year or if the new $5 million settlement includes that or not).

The NE argument was that Brown did not operate in good faith, as the expectation at the time he signed the contract would have been that there would be no outstanding reasons why he would not be able to fulfill the contract. The Pats would obviously argue that Brown and his agent knew the civil case was coming and did not disclose it (along with other complaints) that led to him being released. I am not saying they would have been able to win that argument, only that that would have been the likely road they would have taken.

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21 minutes ago, NE_REVIVAL said:

Yikes, this is typical 40k foot view crap from someone who doesn't really know anything about the team.

I think there are plenty of naysayers who just wish NE would die off already and be dead and buried for the next 20 years. I love all the things people are pulling out as evidence that NE will be horrible (mostly based on how BB has fared without Brady). They say BB was terrible in Cleveland (even though he was the last Browns coach to win a playoff game). They say NE was terrible the first year with BB (when Brady warmed the bench). They point out that BB has coached plenty of other QB that have played in conference title games besides Brady (Jimmy Garoppolo, Drew Bledsoe, Bernie Kosar, Mike Tomczak, Vinny Testaverde, and Mark Rypien). Clearly if BB were the genius people are suggesting he is, he would have won with any of those guys at QB.

What they don't say is that Cleveland was a dumpster fire and BB took them from 3-13 and the worst defense in the league (28.9 ppg allowed) to 11-5 and the #1 defense (12.8 ppg) in a few years. Sure, he had a down year in his first year in NE . . . but they won the SB in Year 2. For some reason, analysts are making the 2019 Patriots out to be a 3-13 team (that somehow Brady did Herculean work to get them to 12 wins).

Hopefully we will get to see how things play out this year . . .

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what does everyone think of the DST this year?  Obviously probably a decline from last year but are they worthy of a higher pick?

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1 hour ago, killface said:

what does everyone think of the DST this year?  Obviously probably a decline from last year but are they worthy of a higher pick?

A reliable #8 defense year over year.  They stay out of the top 5 for the most part because BB hates ball hawks (Asante Samuel, hi!).

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10 minutes ago, SeniorVBDStudent said:

A reliable #8 defense year over year.  They stay out of the top 5 for the most part because BB hates ball hawks (Asante Samuel, hi!).

I sort of disagree on the last part. The defense is all taught to strip the ball and to be in position to bait players for some picks. The defense won't get as many return TDs this year (that was a fluke last year) and probably will have fewer interceptions (they played a lot of bad QBs last season). But they should still be solid in not allowing a ton of yards or points again this year. So fewer forced turnovers and fewer return TD's will put them in the pack with other decent defenses. I would guess in many redraft leagues someone will value the NE DEF/ST as the top unit again and take them way too early. If an entire league thinks NE will be terrible this year, maybe they will drop to the point where they are worth picking up (but somehow I doubt it).

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2 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

I sort of disagree on the last part. The defense is all taught to strip the ball and to be in position to bait players for some picks. The defense won't get as many return TDs this year (that was a fluke last year) and probably will have fewer interceptions (they played a lot of bad QBs last season). But they should still be solid in not allowing a ton of yards or points again this year. So fewer forced turnovers and fewer return TD's will put them in the pack with other decent defenses. I would guess in many redraft leagues someone will value the NE DEF/ST as the top unit again and take them way too early. If an entire league thinks NE will be terrible this year, maybe they will drop to the point where they are worth picking up (but somehow I doubt it).

Thanks for the thoughts

I'm not picking them...going with the bills later on

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33 minutes ago, killface said:

Thanks for the thoughts

I'm not picking them...going with the bills later on

Depending upon geography of individual leagues, the Bills may go before the Patriots will. Buffalo is getting a lot of hype. Based on current ADP at MFL, NE is DEF4 and BUF DEF5 (only 6 picks apart).

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23 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

NE has spoken to Terrelle Pryor. Not sure who would be the more desperate one in that scenario. 

Pryor didn’t even play last year. Was stabbed and arrested for assault instead. Can’t imagine he makes opening day roster.

I am interested to see if they try trade for Njoku. 

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Pats announced their plan to play in front of 20% capacity crowds (up to 13,175 fans) but that would need to be approved by the governor as that would exceed the current allowable limit for gatherings (which I believe is currently limited to 100 people).

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2 hours ago, Anarchy99 said:

Pats announced their plan to play in front of 20% capacity crowds (up to 13,175 fans) but that would need to be approved by the governor as that would exceed the current allowable limit for gatherings (which I believe is currently limited to 100 people).

So it all comes down to how much Kraft has kicked in to Baker and Polito.

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Yikes. Pats with six opt-outs.

Hightower and Chung are tough ones.

Curious if they plug holes with new found cap dollars.

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12 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

Others think Belichick might be conserving to roll money into next season to account for cap drop next season. 
 

Looks like Antonio wants back on the Pats. I doubt it happens since he had talked Kraft. 
https://triblive.com/sports/first-call-is-antonio-brown-leveraging-patriots-opt-outs-penguins-problems-canadiens-lose/

AB trying to go back to the Pats has been suggested for the last month plus. I doubt it happens, as they ended up paying several million dollars last year and this year for one game of Brown. I doubt Kraft would want him back, but IMO unless Brown deducts all the money NE has already paid (essentially to not play football in NE) in the form of a  low dollar new contract, I don't see NE even considering it.

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Just now, Anarchy99 said:

AB trying to go back to the Pats has been suggested for the last month plus. I doubt it happens, as they ended up paying several million dollars last year and this year for one game of Brown. I doubt Kraft would want him back, but IMO unless Brown deducts all the money NE has already paid (essentially to not play football in NE) in the form of a  low dollar new contract, I don't see NE even considering it.

Gotta believe the last thing you want is AB's influence on the youngsters as you try to rebuild this roster.

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Delaney Walker to Pats? https://nesn.com/2020/08/nfl-rumors-patriots-interested-in-free-agent-tight-end-delanie-walker/

 

All Patriots coaches except Belichick: 35, doesn’t know system, coming off injury, better off Investing in oline

Belichick: I do what’s best for the football team

Kraft: I heard a lot of great things about you. Welcome to New England. Can’t wait to meet you. 

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14 minutes ago, Blackbear said:

Delaney Walker to Pats? https://nesn.com/2020/08/nfl-rumors-patriots-interested-in-free-agent-tight-end-delanie-walker/

 

All Patriots coaches except Belichick: 35, doesn’t know system, coming off injury, better off Investing in oline

Belichick: I do what’s best for the football team

Kraft: I heard a lot of great things about you. Welcome to New England. Can’t wait to meet you. 

I saw this movie last year, except it was called BEN WATSON. It's like any other NE signing. It depends on the contract, the health of the player, and for tight ends . . . if he's willing to block.

BB / NE always tries to bring in some older vets. Some have worked out, some have not. Many don't even make the roster. We have no idea what shape Walker is in and how his recovery has gone. It's getting to be a little late in the game to expect that there are many unsigned free agents left that can make an impact. So why not roll the dice? Whomever they sign at this point better be for low dollars, or else Cam will not be a big fan.

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