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Official Ukranian War Thread : Putin stomping around in neighbors yard. Americans more focused on Trump Memes

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You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.

But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.

We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.

Russia is the worlds largest natural gas exporter and largest producer of oil. Which countries do you think they export to and which one of those is willing to give up that energy?

ETA: Fixed for accuracy

Edited by Fennis

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You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.

But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.

We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.

Russia is the worlds largest natural gas exporter and largest producer of oil. Which countries do you think they export to and which one of those is willing to give up that energy?

ETA: Fixed for accuracy

Of course it would hurt. But it would hurt Russia a whole lot more. That's where a true world leader can convince other countries to bite the bullet and accept some short term financial pain to do the right thing.

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You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.

But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.

We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.

Russia is the worlds largest natural gas exporter and largest producer of oil. Which countries do you think they export to and which one of those is willing to give up that energy?

ETA: Fixed for accuracy

Of course it would hurt. But it would hurt Russia a whole lot more. That's where a true world leader can convince other countries to bite the bullet and accept some short term financial pain to do the right thing.

:rolleyes:

If only Obama could walk on water, he'd be a great President!

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You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.

But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.

We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.

Russia is the worlds largest natural gas exporter and largest producer of oil. Which countries do you think they export to and which one of those is willing to give up that energy?

ETA: Fixed for accuracy

Of course it would hurt. But it would hurt Russia a whole lot more. That's where a true world leader can convince other countries to bite the bullet and accept some short term financial pain to do the right thing.

:rolleyes:

If only Obama could walk on water, he'd be a great President!

The end result was a disaster in a lot of ways, but if a dolt like Bush could get dozens of countries to committ billions of dollars and tens of thousands of troops to invade Afghanistan and then Iraq, surely Obama should be able to convince some key countries to create something much simpler in an economic blockade of Russia.

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You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.

But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.

We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.

Russia is the worlds largest natural gas exporter and largest producer of oil. Which countries do you think they export to and which one of those is willing to give up that energy?

ETA: Fixed for accuracy

Of course it would hurt. But it would hurt Russia a whole lot more. That's where a true world leader can convince other countries to bite the bullet and accept some short term financial pain to do the right thing.

:rolleyes:

If only Obama could walk on water, he'd be a great President!

The end result was a disaster in a lot of ways, but if a dolt like Bush could get dozens of countries to committ billions of dollars and tens of thousands of troops to invade Afghanistan and then Iraq, surely Obama should be able to convince some key countries to create something much simpler in an economic blockade of Russia.

I don't think the situations are really comparable. Comparing Russia to Afghanistan or Iraq is not a fair comparison.

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You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.

But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.

We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.

Russia has a major military base inside Ukraine, and to secure that base and their interests with an unstable government is something we would do ourselves in the same situation. HOW THEY DO IT is a different matter and this is obviously in no small part, a show of force in a region that is more than half ethnically Russian.

Crimea has been disputed for decades, even during the Soviet Union. It was an autonomous region even in Soviet times, and pretty much the Sicily of Eastern Europe...everyone has had her. It is ethnically diverse, and the people there can't figure out side they want to be on. It is much like Transnistra in Moldova, belonging to one country but having a majority of the population dedicated to the other. The Ukraine is the place in Europe where battles are fought and it has changed hands a lot during the centuries, that makes it a melting pot and melting pots never have worked well in Europe (the Former Yugoslavia as the best example).

Ukraine is in a bad spot, always have been. They can't completely commit to the west because of the ethnic Russian influence, but more so because they are economically unable to make such a move without a complete bailout by the west. That's not going to happen in a country that pulls from within depending on which way the wind blows. They depend on Russia for energy, because it's too damn expensive to get from Europe and because of recent history.

They were never fully committed to democracy, and never fully committed from moving away from their historic regional partner in Russia. What did Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia do as soon as they could? They got away from Russia, they wanted nothing to do with it (maybe Latvia for a time). Ukraine and Belarus and to a lesser extent Moldova, never have strayed too far. It's for reasons beyond ethnic makeup, it has to do with national security and the specter of an angry Russia. Belarus has quietly created a police state, not really all that different from what they were during the Soviet Union. They treat dissidents like Uzbekistan does, they crush them.

The Ukraine on the other hand has a lot of free thinkers and connections to the west, so they feel a connection to Europe is wise for their future. That may be true but the fact that they are so dependent on Russia for not only energy, but for internal strength and national security. Theoretically they can straddle Europe and Russia for decades upon decades, but there will always exist things from the core that will make it unstable. It is not for the U.S. or Europe or even Russia to save, it has to be something they work out by themselves. To that end the Russians will influence what they can, and a European response will do the same.

Rushing to judgment about cutting off trade ties with Russia or massing troops or whatever is reactionary. Europe needs to stand with us in a calculated and measured way and then we have to see what the Russians are willing to negotiate. The bottom line is Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, we don't. For Europe the interest is along borders as Romania, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary all share borders with the Ukraine and the Black Sea has a ton of Western commerce. Russia is not invading the Ukraine and sacking Kiev, people need to see it for what it is and expect a lot more of this to happen in former Soviet Republics and elsewhere over the next 50 or so years. :2cents:

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Good thing we are not reducing the size of our military.

The Russian military is to our military what the Western Athletic Conference is to the NBA.

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I like to think I make a little sense in this thread.

Dr Detroit makes a lot of sense in this thread. I still think some sort of quid pro quo concerning Syria/Iran would be the best outcome for all involved.

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Plus if you ever saw how much ### is in Sevastopol, you'd rush troops there to protect it too. It's like one big coochie in the summer months. :thumbup:

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You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.

But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.

We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.

The bottom line is Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, we don't.

This

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Good thing we are not reducing the size of our military.

The Russian military is to our military what the Western Athletic Conference is to the NBA.
Why is Obama issuing a warning?

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Good thing we are not reducing the size of our military.

The Russian military is to our military what the Western Athletic Conference is to the NBA.
Why is Obama issuing a warning?

To cover down on our European friends and to be a #### to Russia.

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Oh, and in the debates Mitt Romney pretty much called this too, and the moderator smacked him down hard for it. Can't be true. I mean, that republican doofus also said ObamaCare would implode and look how wrong he was about that! Stupid republicans.

My link

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Not that it adds anything to this thread. But I just have to say that I wish every last human being on this Earth (American, al-Qaeda, jackholes on the African continent, doesn't matter), who would resort to violence to inflict their will on others, would step on a land mine. Or better yet, get incurable rectal cancer and die a slow, agonizing death. Without any pain medications.

That is all.

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Help me out. Is Russia really invading Ukraine or is Russia there "supporting" one side? Has Russia been threatening Ukraine or is Russia there "protecting" their interests and/or policing the situation since the Ukrainian president went AWOL?

Until shots are fired, I'm not sure "invading" is the correct term to be using, no?

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Pretty sure this isn't gonna happen.

I mean, Sarah Palin said Russia would invade the Ukraine, and she was mocked relentlessly for it. So obviously she has to be wrong and this won't go down.

:lmao:

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You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.

But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.

We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.

Russia has a major military base inside Ukraine, and to secure that base and their interests with an unstable government is something we would do ourselves in the same situation. HOW THEY DO IT is a different matter and this is obviously in no small part, a show of force in a region that is more than half ethnically Russian.

Crimea has been disputed for decades, even during the Soviet Union. It was an autonomous region even in Soviet times, and pretty much the Sicily of Eastern Europe...everyone has had her. It is ethnically diverse, and the people there can't figure out side they want to be on. It is much like Transnistra in Moldova, belonging to one country but having a majority of the population dedicated to the other. The Ukraine is the place in Europe where battles are fought and it has changed hands a lot during the centuries, that makes it a melting pot and melting pots never have worked well in Europe (the Former Yugoslavia as the best example).

Ukraine is in a bad spot, always have been. They can't completely commit to the west because of the ethnic Russian influence, but more so because they are economically unable to make such a move without a complete bailout by the west. That's not going to happen in a country that pulls from within depending on which way the wind blows. They depend on Russia for energy, because it's too damn expensive to get from Europe and because of recent history.

They were never fully committed to democracy, and never fully committed from moving away from their historic regional partner in Russia. What did Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia do as soon as they could? They got away from Russia, they wanted nothing to do with it (maybe Latvia for a time). Ukraine and Belarus and to a lesser extent Moldova, never have strayed too far. It's for reasons beyond ethnic makeup, it has to do with national security and the specter of an angry Russia. Belarus has quietly created a police state, not really all that different from what they were during the Soviet Union. They treat dissidents like Uzbekistan does, they crush them.

The Ukraine on the other hand has a lot of free thinkers and connections to the west, so they feel a connection to Europe is wise for their future. That may be true but the fact that they are so dependent on Russia for not only energy, but for internal strength and national security. Theoretically they can straddle Europe and Russia for decades upon decades, but there will always exist things from the core that will make it unstable. It is not for the U.S. or Europe or even Russia to save, it has to be something they work out by themselves. To that end the Russians will influence what they can, and a European response will do the same.

Rushing to judgment about cutting off trade ties with Russia or massing troops or whatever is reactionary. Europe needs to stand with us in a calculated and measured way and then we have to see what the Russians are willing to negotiate. The bottom line is Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, we don't. For Europe the interest is along borders as Romania, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary all share borders with the Ukraine and the Black Sea has a ton of Western commerce. Russia is not invading the Ukraine and sacking Kiev, people need to see it for what it is and expect a lot more of this to happen in former Soviet Republics and elsewhere over the next 50 or so years. :2cents:

:goodposting:

Another thing we need to keep in mind is that this isn't the first time Russia<Putin> has done this in the last ten years. Osetia is still fresh enough, and no one ever feels the need to mention the blockade of Estonia. Russia has already swung its dick in our faces several times and proven we have very little unilateral control over its influence.

However.

The Ukraine is the stopgap to the former territory that the good ol' CCCP had. No other country in the region holds not only the military assets but the strategic positioning that the Ukraine does. Russia's most strategic fleet is based in Sevastopol. It's been using regional airbases as jump-off points since flight. This is more than a pissing contest between classic speakers of Cyrillic and those who hearken back to the post Czarism transition. The outcome of this incursion has very manufactured longterm consequences.

As someone with skin in the game, I say let's put the shutdown on the nonsense. Bring it Putin, you badass piece of ####.

Schlzm

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Not that it adds anything to this thread. But I just have to say that I wish every last human being on this Earth (American, al-Qaeda, jackholes on the African continent, doesn't matter), who would resort to violence to inflict their will on others, would step on a land mine. Or better yet, get incurable rectal cancer and die a slow, agonizing death. Without any pain medications.

That is all.

How are those land mines going to get there? Suicide land mine-layers?

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Time to see if Obama's balls are anywhere near as big as Kennedy's were.

Its this way of thinking that leaves humanity constantly wasting money butchering each other.

:goodposting:

Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.

It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.

Scoresman is an INDEPENDENT!%#@!

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Not that it adds anything to this thread. But I just have to say that I wish every last human being on this Earth (American, al-Qaeda, jackholes on the African continent, doesn't matter), who would resort to violence to inflict their will on others, would step on a land mine. Or better yet, get incurable rectal cancer and die a slow, agonizing death. Without any pain medications.

That is all.

are you really wishing violence to inflict your will on those that would use violence to inflict their will?

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Not that it adds anything to this thread. But I just have to say that I wish every last human being on this Earth (American, al-Qaeda, jackholes on the African continent, doesn't matter), who would resort to violence to inflict their will on others, would step on a land mine. Or better yet, get incurable rectal cancer and die a slow, agonizing death. Without any pain medications.

That is all.

are you really wishing violence to inflict your will on those that would use violence to inflict their will?

It's easy for him to do considering he can levitate over those same landmines.

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Not that it adds anything to this thread. But I just have to say that I wish every last human being on this Earth (American, al-Qaeda, jackholes on the African continent, doesn't matter), who would resort to violence to inflict their will on others, would step on a land mine. Or better yet, get incurable rectal cancer and die a slow, agonizing death. Without any pain medications.

That is all.

I'm not sure you thought this all the way through.

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Armed forces of the Ukraine: 159,000 active personnel

Armed forces of Russia: 766,000 active personnel

Total budget for Ukraine armed forces: 1.9 billion

Total budget for Russia armed forces: 90.4 billion

:oldunsure:

So you're saying...

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Not that it adds anything to this thread. But I just have to say that I wish every last human being on this Earth (American, al-Qaeda, jackholes on the African continent, doesn't matter), who would resort to violence to inflict their will on others, would step on a land mine. Or better yet, get incurable rectal cancer and die a slow, agonizing death. Without any pain medications.

That is all.

are you really wishing violence to inflict your will on those that would use violence to inflict their will?

:goodposting:

I think that's exactly what he's saying - but all in the name of peace.

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Pretty sure this isn't gonna happen.

I mean, Sarah Palin said Russia would invade the Ukraine, and she was mocked relentlessly for it. So obviously she has to be wrong and this won't go down.

Who could know more on the subject, I mean she watched the invasion from Alaska right?

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If Obama and Western Europe really wanted to head this off, they'd offer Ukraine NATO membership tomorrow. The last president turned it down, but the current one wouldn't.

If the US offered Ukraine membership to NATO tomorrow, that would start WWIII.

The last president of Ukraine was not offered NATO membership.

huh?

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It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.

:goodposting:

Yea, the left don't do that at all.. Only the right tries to make the other side look bad. The left are all good, honest, and fair..

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If Obama and Western Europe really wanted to head this off, they'd offer Ukraine NATO membership tomorrow. The last president turned it down, but the current one wouldn't.

If the US offered Ukraine membership to NATO tomorrow, that would start WWIII.

The last president of Ukraine was not offered NATO membership.

huh?
You know being a member of NATO requires you to aid other NaTO nations when attacked. Ukraine is being invaded and if they were a member of NaTO that would be NATO vs invading Nation ( Russia ) Exactly what everyone envisioned WWIII to be the last 8 decades.

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It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.

:goodposting:

:yes:

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Looks like Putin called Obama's bluff and is also recalling their ambassador. Interesting to see what happens now.

Did you read your second link? They are not recalling the ambassador. Some dudes in their congress are going to demand that Putin does it. But I will wager you $500 right now that he doesn't.

This isn't an invasion. It's a lot of hot air.

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You guys know military action isn't the only option, right? If Obama has any actual clout in the world and the guys to do it, he should get the rest of the Western world to immediately halt all trade with Russia until they withdraw all troops from Ukraine. That would actually be a gigantic consequence for Russia that would likely force Putin to back off.

But my bet is that Obama has so little cache or desire to actually pull that off.

We could be a lot more than hot air without committing a single troop.

Russia has a major military base inside Ukraine, and to secure that base and their interests with an unstable government is something we would do ourselves in the same situation. HOW THEY DO IT is a different matter and this is obviously in no small part, a show of force in a region that is more than half ethnically Russian.

Crimea has been disputed for decades, even during the Soviet Union. It was an autonomous region even in Soviet times, and pretty much the Sicily of Eastern Europe...everyone has had her. It is ethnically diverse, and the people there can't figure out side they want to be on. It is much like Transnistra in Moldova, belonging to one country but having a majority of the population dedicated to the other. The Ukraine is the place in Europe where battles are fought and it has changed hands a lot during the centuries, that makes it a melting pot and melting pots never have worked well in Europe (the Former Yugoslavia as the best example).

Ukraine is in a bad spot, always have been. They can't completely commit to the west because of the ethnic Russian influence, but more so because they are economically unable to make such a move without a complete bailout by the west. That's not going to happen in a country that pulls from within depending on which way the wind blows. They depend on Russia for energy, because it's too damn expensive to get from Europe and because of recent history.

They were never fully committed to democracy, and never fully committed from moving away from their historic regional partner in Russia. What did Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia do as soon as they could? They got away from Russia, they wanted nothing to do with it (maybe Latvia for a time). Ukraine and Belarus and to a lesser extent Moldova, never have strayed too far. It's for reasons beyond ethnic makeup, it has to do with national security and the specter of an angry Russia. Belarus has quietly created a police state, not really all that different from what they were during the Soviet Union. They treat dissidents like Uzbekistan does, they crush them.

The Ukraine on the other hand has a lot of free thinkers and connections to the west, so they feel a connection to Europe is wise for their future. That may be true but the fact that they are so dependent on Russia for not only energy, but for internal strength and national security. Theoretically they can straddle Europe and Russia for decades upon decades, but there will always exist things from the core that will make it unstable. It is not for the U.S. or Europe or even Russia to save, it has to be something they work out by themselves. To that end the Russians will influence what they can, and a European response will do the same.

Rushing to judgment about cutting off trade ties with Russia or massing troops or whatever is reactionary. Europe needs to stand with us in a calculated and measured way and then we have to see what the Russians are willing to negotiate. The bottom line is Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, we don't. For Europe the interest is along borders as Romania, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary all share borders with the Ukraine and the Black Sea has a ton of Western commerce. Russia is not invading the Ukraine and sacking Kiev, people need to see it for what it is and expect a lot more of this to happen in former Soviet Republics and elsewhere over the next 50 or so years. :2cents:

Great post but things have already gotten ahead of us.

I will add one more thing in support of what you say here though: a very bad scenario would have been if Russia did not invade and pro-Russian militants took over with guns and violent means, then the Ukraine government would move in and cause bloodshed to take back control - and then Putin would really be on the spot because there would be outrage in Russia over Russian deaths in Crimea or East Ukraine.

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Looks like Putin called Obama's bluff and is also recalling their ambassador. Interesting to see what happens now.

Did you read your second link? They are not recalling the ambassador. Some dudes in their congress are going to demand that Putin does it. But I will wager you $500 right now that he doesn't.

This isn't an invasion. It's a lot of hot air.

You aren't being invaded Ukraine. They are Peacekeepers to protect ethnic Russians from those Tatars!

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Good thing we are not reducing the size of our military.

The Russian military is to our military what the Western Athletic Conference is to the NBA.

I'm going to disagree with you here - they do things differently but the reality is no US/Russia military interface with Russia ends in anything else except horrible disastrous losses and international mayhem.

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If Obama and Western Europe really wanted to head this off, they'd offer Ukraine NATO membership tomorrow. The last president turned it down, but the current one wouldn't.

If the US offered Ukraine membership to NATO tomorrow, that would start WWIII.

The last president of Ukraine was not offered NATO membership.

huh?
You know being a member of NATO requires you to aid other NaTO nations when attacked. Ukraine is being invaded and if they were a member of NaTO that would be NATO vs invading Nation ( Russia ) Exactly what everyone envisioned WWIII to be the last 8 decades.

Ukraine/Nato would deter a Russian invasion..

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I will add that Putin openly expressed his contempt for George Bush as an overly aggressive cowboy buffoon. Bush was criticized here for provoking Putin.

Well it turns out that Putin openly expresses contempt for Obama as a weak, feckless joke. Obama is criticized here for encouraging Putin.

And in the end what's really happening is Putin is jerking us all around like some sociopath - guess what, whatever you do he will seek to make you at fault and he be the victim and he will always always always take advantage. He's just a political opportunist and that's all there is to it.

Edited by SaintsInDome2006

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I will add that Putin openly expressed his contempt for George Bush as an overly aggressive cowboy buffoon. Bush was criticized here for provoking Putin.

Well it turns out that Putin openly expresses contempt for Obama as a weak, feckless joke. Obama is criticized here for encouraging Putin.

And in the end what's really happening is Putin is jerking us all around like some sociopath - guess what, whatever you do he will seek to make you at fault and he be the victim and he will always always always take advantage. He's just a political opportunist and that's all there is to it.

And thus goes global politics...

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Looks like Putin called Obama's bluff and is also recalling their ambassador. Interesting to see what happens now.

Did you read your second link? They are not recalling the ambassador. Some dudes in their congress are going to demand that Putin does it. But I will wager you $500 right now that he doesn't.

This isn't an invasion. It's a lot of hot air.

I think it's pretty wide open what will happen. The Duma is a rubberstamp for Putin, it's run by Russia United.

Putin can keep this in his hip pocket and either do it or not.

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