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The end result was a disaster in a lot of ways, but if a dolt like Bush could get dozens of countries to committ billions of dollars and tens of thousands of troops to invade Afghanistan and then Iraq, surely Obama should be able to convince some key countries to create something much simpler in an economic blockade of Russia.
I don't think the situations are really comparable. Comparing Russia to Afghanistan or Iraq is not a fair comparison.The end result was a disaster in a lot of ways, but if a dolt like Bush could get dozens of countries to committ billions of dollars and tens of thousands of troops to invade Afghanistan and then Iraq, surely Obama should be able to convince some key countries to create something much simpler in an economic blockade of Russia.
Russia has a major military base inside Ukraine, and to secure that base and their interests with an unstable government is something we would do ourselves in the same situation. HOW THEY DO IT is a different matter and this is obviously in no small part, a show of force in a region that is more than half ethnically Russian.
The Russian military is to our military what the Western Athletic Conference is to the NBA.
This
Why is Obama issuing a warning?
Sarnoff said:
Russia has a major military base inside Ukraine, and to secure that base and their interests with an unstable government is something we would do ourselves in the same situation. HOW THEY DO IT is a different matter and this is obviously in no small part, a show of force in a region that is more than half ethnically Russian.
Crimea has been disputed for decades, even during the Soviet Union. It was an autonomous region even in Soviet times, and pretty much the Sicily of Eastern Europe...everyone has had her. It is ethnically diverse, and the people there can't figure out side they want to be on. It is much like Transnistra in Moldova, belonging to one country but having a majority of the population dedicated to the other. The Ukraine is the place in Europe where battles are fought and it has changed hands a lot during the centuries, that makes it a melting pot and melting pots never have worked well in Europe (the Former Yugoslavia as the best example).
Ukraine is in a bad spot, always have been. They can't completely commit to the west because of the ethnic Russian influence, but more so because they are economically unable to make such a move without a complete bailout by the west. That's not going to happen in a country that pulls from within depending on which way the wind blows. They depend on Russia for energy, because it's too damn expensive to get from Europe and because of recent history.
They were never fully committed to democracy, and never fully committed from moving away from their historic regional partner in Russia. What did Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia do as soon as they could? They got away from Russia, they wanted nothing to do with it (maybe Latvia for a time). Ukraine and Belarus and to a lesser extent Moldova, never have strayed too far. It's for reasons beyond ethnic makeup, it has to do with national security and the specter of an angry Russia. Belarus has quietly created a police state, not really all that different from what they were during the Soviet Union. They treat dissidents like Uzbekistan does, they crush them.
The Ukraine on the other hand has a lot of free thinkers and connections to the west, so they feel a connection to Europe is wise for their future. That may be true but the fact that they are so dependent on Russia for not only energy, but for internal strength and national security. Theoretically they can straddle Europe and Russia for decades upon decades, but there will always exist things from the core that will make it unstable. It is not for the U.S. or Europe or even Russia to save, it has to be something they work out by themselves. To that end the Russians will influence what they can, and a European response will do the same.
Rushing to judgment about cutting off trade ties with Russia or massing troops or whatever is reactionary. Europe needs to stand with us in a calculated and measured way and then we have to see what the Russians are willing to negotiate. The bottom line is Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, we don't. For Europe the interest is along borders as Romania, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary all share borders with the Ukraine and the Black Sea has a ton of Western commerce. Russia is not invading the Ukraine and sacking Kiev, people need to see it for what it is and expect a lot more of this to happen in former Soviet Republics and elsewhere over the next 50 or so years.
Another thing we need to keep in mind is that this isn't the first time Russia<Putin> has done this in the last ten years. Osetia is still fresh enough, and no one ever feels the need to mention the blockade of Estonia. Russia has already swung its **** in our faces several times and proven we have very little unilateral control over its influence.
Scoresman is an INDEPENDENT!%#@!It's pointless to even listen to the right anymore while Obama is in there. When he's talking tough they say he's all talk, if he takes military action they'll say he's reckless and arrogant. They're actually waiting to see what he does to figure out how to complain.Bucky86 said:Slapdash said:
Easy for these ####### armchair generals to want to blow #### up.
are you really wishing violence to inflict your will on those that would use violence to inflict their will?
So you're saying...timschochet said:Armed forces of the Ukraine: 159,000 active personnel
Armed forces of Russia: 766,000 active personnel
Total budget for Ukraine armed forces: 1.9 billion
Total budget for Russia armed forces: 90.4 billion
Yea, the left don't do that at all.. Only the right tries to make the other side look bad. The left are all good, honest, and fair..
You know being a member of NATO requires you to aid other NaTO nations when attacked. Ukraine is being invaded and if they were a member of NaTO that would be NATO vs invading Nation ( Russia ) Exactly what everyone envisioned WWIII to be the last 8 decades.
Did you read your second link? They are not recalling the ambassador. Some dudes in their congress are going to demand that Putin does it. But I will wager you $500 right now that he doesn't. This isn't an invasion. It's a lot of hot air.
Great post but things have already gotten ahead of us.Russia has a major military base inside Ukraine, and to secure that base and their interests with an unstable government is something we would do ourselves in the same situation. HOW THEY DO IT is a different matter and this is obviously in no small part, a show of force in a region that is more than half ethnically Russian.
Crimea has been disputed for decades, even during the Soviet Union. It was an autonomous region even in Soviet times, and pretty much the Sicily of Eastern Europe...everyone has had her. It is ethnically diverse, and the people there can't figure out side they want to be on. It is much like Transnistra in Moldova, belonging to one country but having a majority of the population dedicated to the other. The Ukraine is the place in Europe where battles are fought and it has changed hands a lot during the centuries, that makes it a melting pot and melting pots never have worked well in Europe (the Former Yugoslavia as the best example).
Ukraine is in a bad spot, always have been. They can't completely commit to the west because of the ethnic Russian influence, but more so because they are economically unable to make such a move without a complete bailout by the west. That's not going to happen in a country that pulls from within depending on which way the wind blows. They depend on Russia for energy, because it's too damn expensive to get from Europe and because of recent history.
They were never fully committed to democracy, and never fully committed from moving away from their historic regional partner in Russia. What did Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia do as soon as they could? They got away from Russia, they wanted nothing to do with it (maybe Latvia for a time). Ukraine and Belarus and to a lesser extent Moldova, never have strayed too far. It's for reasons beyond ethnic makeup, it has to do with national security and the specter of an angry Russia. Belarus has quietly created a police state, not really all that different from what they were during the Soviet Union. They treat dissidents like Uzbekistan does, they crush them.
The Ukraine on the other hand has a lot of free thinkers and connections to the west, so they feel a connection to Europe is wise for their future. That may be true but the fact that they are so dependent on Russia for not only energy, but for internal strength and national security. Theoretically they can straddle Europe and Russia for decades upon decades, but there will always exist things from the core that will make it unstable. It is not for the U.S. or Europe or even Russia to save, it has to be something they work out by themselves. To that end the Russians will influence what they can, and a European response will do the same.
Rushing to judgment about cutting off trade ties with Russia or massing troops or whatever is reactionary. Europe needs to stand with us in a calculated and measured way and then we have to see what the Russians are willing to negotiate. The bottom line is Russia has a vested interest in the Ukraine, we don't. For Europe the interest is along borders as Romania, Poland, Slovakia and Hungary all share borders with the Ukraine and the Black Sea has a ton of Western commerce. Russia is not invading the Ukraine and sacking Kiev, people need to see it for what it is and expect a lot more of this to happen in former Soviet Republics and elsewhere over the next 50 or so years.
You aren't being invaded Ukraine. They are Peacekeepers to protect ethnic Russians from those Tatars!
I'm going to disagree with you here - they do things differently but the reality is no US/Russia military interface with Russia ends in anything else except horrible disastrous losses and international mayhem.
I think it's pretty wide open what will happen. The Duma is a rubberstamp for Putin, it's run by Russia United.
