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Politics and War in Ukraine (1 Viewer)

Donetsk declares itself a sovereign state.

Up next, Russia annexes more of Ukraine...but then no one really cares anymore.

 
shader said:
Donetsk declares itself a sovereign state.

Up next, Russia annexes more of Ukraine...but then no one really cares anymore.
Click to expand...
Well if it's anything like Crimea that means 15% voted for secession.

Unlike Crimea the Russians do not have bases within the province and they don't have official troops there yet.

A bit trickier.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
shader said:
Donetsk declares itself a sovereign state.

Up next, Russia annexes more of Ukraine...but then no one really cares anymore.
Click to expand...
Well if it's anything like Crimea that means 15% voted for secession.

Unlike Crimea the Russians do not have bases within the province and they don't have official troops there yet.

A bit trickier.
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True, but they are already putting "feelers" out to "help" if things deteriorate:

Russia welcomed the vote.

"Moscow respects the will of the population of the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, and hopes that the practical implementation of the outcome of the referendums will proceed along civilized lines, without repeat outbreaks of violence," the Kremlin said in a statement.
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Basically "If we feel the will of the people is threatened by the Ukraine government and Russians are in danger we will have no choice but to step in and help our citizens." :mellow:

 
Russia targets space projects in response to U.S. high-tech sanctions

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia will bar the United States from using Russian-made rocket engines for military satellite launches, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Tuesday, retaliating for sanctions on high-tech equipment which Washington has imposed over the Ukraine crisis.

He also said Russia would reject a U.S. request to prolong the use of the International Space Station beyond 2020.

Russia pledged to respond in kind when the United States said last month that it would deny export licenses for any high-technology items that could aid Russian military capabilities and would revoke existing licenses.

Moscow's measures would affect MK-33 and RD-180 engines which Russia supplies to the United States, Rogozin told a news conference. "We are ready to deliver these engines but on one condition that they will not be used to launch military satellites," he said.

Washington wants to keep the International Space Station, a $100 billion orbital outpost that is a project of 15 nations and a showcase of Russian-U.S. cooperation, flying until at least 2024, four years beyond the previous target.

In spite of differences on foreign policy and security matters, Washington and Moscow have cooperated extensively on space exploration. Russian Soyuz spacecraft are the only way astronauts can get to the space station, whose crews include both Americans and Russians.

Rogozin also said Russia will suspend the operation of GPS satellite navigation system sites in Russia from June and seek talks with Washington on opening similar sites in the United States for Russia's own system, Glonass.

He threatened the permanent closure of the GPS sites in Russia if that is not agreed by September.

(Reporting by Alissa de Carbonnel, Writing by Gabriela Baczynska,; Editing by Steve Gutterman and David Stamp)

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-rolls-response-u-high-tech-sanctions-134440653.html
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tom22406 said:
Russia targets space projects in response to U.S. high-tech sanctions

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia will bar the United States from using Russian-made rocket engines for military satellite launches, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Tuesday, retaliating for sanctions on high-tech equipment which Washington has imposed over the Ukraine crisis.

He also said Russia would reject a U.S. request to prolong the use of the International Space Station beyond 2020.

Russia pledged to respond in kind when the United States said last month that it would deny export licenses for any high-technology items that could aid Russian military capabilities and would revoke existing licenses.

Moscow's measures would affect MK-33 and RD-180 engines which Russia supplies to the United States, Rogozin told a news conference. "We are ready to deliver these engines but on one condition that they will not be used to launch military satellites," he said.

Washington wants to keep the International Space Station, a $100 billion orbital outpost that is a project of 15 nations and a showcase of Russian-U.S. cooperation, flying until at least 2024, four years beyond the previous target.

In spite of differences on foreign policy and security matters, Washington and Moscow have cooperated extensively on space exploration. Russian Soyuz spacecraft are the only way astronauts can get to the space station, whose crews include both Americans and Russians.

Rogozin also said Russia will suspend the operation of GPS satellite navigation system sites in Russia from June and seek talks with Washington on opening similar sites in the United States for Russia's own system, Glonass.

He threatened the permanent closure of the GPS sites in Russia if that is not agreed by September.

(Reporting by Alissa de Carbonnel, Writing by Gabriela Baczynska,; Editing by Steve Gutterman and David Stamp)

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-rolls-response-u-high-tech-sanctions-134440653.html
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This reminds me of when we talked about retiring the Space Shuttle fleet. People argued that we were relying on Russia to get us there, and that could come back to haunt us. And I remember at the time, people saying things like, "Russia and the US are allies now. We won't have to worry about that."

Oops. :mellow:

 
Interesting little twist just came out.

Vice President Joe Biden's son and a close friend of Secretary of State John Kerry's stepson have joined the board of a Ukrainian gas producer controlled by a former top security and energy official for deposed President Viktor Yanukovych.

The move has attracted attention given Messrs. Biden's and Kerry's public roles in diplomacy toward Ukraine, where the U.S. expressed support for pro-Western demonstrators who toppled Mr. Yanukovych's Kremlin-backed government in February. The uprising provoked a pro-Russia backlash that has plunged the post-Soviet republic into conflict and brought it to the brink of civil war.
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http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303851804579560542284706288?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303851804579560542284706288.html

 
tom22406 said:
Russia targets space projects in response to U.S. high-tech sanctions

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia will bar the United States from using Russian-made rocket engines for military satellite launches, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Tuesday, retaliating for sanctions on high-tech equipment which Washington has imposed over the Ukraine crisis.

He also said Russia would reject a U.S. request to prolong the use of the International Space Station beyond 2020.

Russia pledged to respond in kind when the United States said last month that it would deny export licenses for any high-technology items that could aid Russian military capabilities and would revoke existing licenses.

Moscow's measures would affect MK-33 and RD-180 engines which Russia supplies to the United States, Rogozin told a news conference. "We are ready to deliver these engines but on one condition that they will not be used to launch military satellites," he said.

Washington wants to keep the International Space Station, a $100 billion orbital outpost that is a project of 15 nations and a showcase of Russian-U.S. cooperation, flying until at least 2024, four years beyond the previous target.

In spite of differences on foreign policy and security matters, Washington and Moscow have cooperated extensively on space exploration. Russian Soyuz spacecraft are the only way astronauts can get to the space station, whose crews include both Americans and Russians.

Rogozin also said Russia will suspend the operation of GPS satellite navigation system sites in Russia from June and seek talks with Washington on opening similar sites in the United States for Russia's own system, Glonass.

He threatened the permanent closure of the GPS sites in Russia if that is not agreed by September.

(Reporting by Alissa de Carbonnel, Writing by Gabriela Baczynska,; Editing by Steve Gutterman and David Stamp)

http://news.yahoo.com/russia-rolls-response-u-high-tech-sanctions-134440653.html
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If there's an accident up there, we might have to use our secret military space shuttle. You know, the one that Toby Ziegler got fired for revealing to the press.

 
SacramentoBob said:
It's about time that the gay Nazi agenda has been exposed.
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Russian media also have called the Maidan square, where protests led to the demise of former pro-Russian Ukraine President Viktor Yanukovych, the "Gayeuromaidan," thus tying together Europe and the gay rights movement, writes Yale history professor and author Timothy Snyder in The New York Review of Books.

And even more recently Russian politicians pounced on the opportunity provided by Eurovision Song Contest winner Conchita West. The bearded drag queen "showed supporters of European integration their European future - a bearded girl," tweeted Russia's Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin.
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In other news, George Sterling has been named the new Information Minister for Russia.

 
higgins said:
link

Novorossiya Is Back from the Dead Why Vladimir Putin's casual use of a forgotten geographical term has ominous implications.A few days ago, during my stay in the Ukrainian city of Odessa, I found my way to the modest tent encampment in a park that has now become the spiritual center of the local pro-Russian movement. There, I met 39-year-old Yegor Kvasnyuk, a bespectacled lawyer who is one of the coordinators of what is widely known in Odessa as the "Anti-Maidan." As the name suggests, the Anti-Maidan forces strongly reject the current interim government in Kiev, born as it was from the Euromaidan uprising that toppled former President Viktor Yanukovych in February. (Kvasnyuk hastens to add that he never liked Yanukovych, and claims that he has often run afoul of the ex-president's political party, which remains a big force in Odessa politics.)

Kvasnyuk insists that successive Ukrainian governments have repeatedly failed to take the legitimate desires of the Russian-speaking population into account. Russian is by far the dominant language in Odessa (though many there speak Ukrainian as well). Yet Kvasnyuk says that he and other pro-Russian activists spent years trying to get official recognition for teaching Russian in schools and allowing the use of it on government documentation. The Anti-Maidan activists also cite the deep cultural and political divides between Russian-speaking easterners, many of whom feel considerable nostalgia for the Soviet Union, and the Ukrainian nationalists from the western parts of the country, who regarded Soviet power as their mortal enemy. "There are very few of those people here," says Kvasnyuk. "But there are a lot of them in the West, and they want to rule us."

All of which is why, Kvasnyuk says, that he and his colleagues have joined the push for wide-ranging "federalization," meaning extensive autonomy for Odessa and its surrounding province. If that sounds similar to the primary demand issued by the insurgents who have now taken control of several key government buildings in eastern Ukraine, it's no accident: Kvasnyuk wholeheartedly approves of their actions, which, he says, are simply a "defensive response" to repressive policies pursued by the revolutionary government. He claims, without offering specifics, that the Kiev government violently suppressed pro-Russian demonstrations in the East, prompting the current revolt there.

Kvasnyuk stressed that his movement isn't ready to give up on the idea of Ukraine altogether. "Right now we hope that we can solve our problems ourselves, without help from Moscow," he told me. But what if the government in Kiev doesn't offer quite as much autonomy as the pro-Russians want? "If we don't get federalization," Kvasnyuk told me, "then there won't be any way to preserve the integrity of Ukraine." So, in effect, secession. But what about after that? Would Kvasnyuk want to join Russia?

It was here that our conversation took a rather unexpected turn. No, he explained. It would make more sense for the other Russia-oriented parts of Ukraine to join together to form a new country of their own -- a country he referred to as "Novorossiya." His eyes sparkled. "A population of 20 million, with industry, resources." With advantages like that, who needs to become a part of Russia? "By European standards that's already a good-sized country."

"Novorossiya." I'd heard the term before -- but mainly in history books that described the 18th-century Russian wars against the Ottomans that resulted in the Russian Empire's expansion to the coast of the Black Sea. The newly conquered territories were dubbed "New Russia," a name that was still being applied to southern Ukraine right up until the late 19th century. My conversation with Kvasnyuk, however, was the first time I'd heard the term invoked as a possible state-building scenario in the 21st century.

But it will certainly not be the last. A few days later, on April 17, Russian President Vladimir Putin, no less, suddenly began using the word during his annual televised question-and-answer sessions with the nation. "Under the tsars, this region was called Novorossiya," he said. "These territories were passed on to Ukraine in the 1920s. Why the Soviet government did that, may God judge them."

So how seriously are we take all this? Was Putin's choice of terminology merely a bit of psychological theater on the same day that Ukraine, Russia, the United States, and the European Union were trying to work out an agreement in Geneva to prevent further escalation in Ukraine? Or does Putin regard this as a realistic scenario?


There have long been rumors of maps of a correspondingly divided Ukraine circulating in the Kremlin. Or is that simply clever disinformation, designed to keep the West anxiously guessing?

It's worth noting that Russia has already rehearsed the Novorossiya option on a much smaller scale -- in the breakaway territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia (inside Georgia), and in the separatist enclave of Transnistria (in Moldova), which borders on Ukraine. In each of these places, disgruntled minorities seeking greater control over their own affairs have fought wars against their national governments, with Moscow's encouragement and support.

In the case of Transnistria, Russia ended the 1992 civil war there by introducing troops designated as "peacekeepers." Those troops are still there, ensuring that the territory -- which is inhabited largely by Ukrainians and Russians who have little interest in subjecting themselves to the rule of the Romanian-speaking Moldovans who mostly run the country today -- remains a "frozen conflict." Transnistria claims for itself the status of an independent state, though not even Russia recognizes it as such. (On April 16, the Transnistrian government once again emphatically declared its desire to join Russia, something it has done many times before; so far Moscow has declined to answer in the affirmative.)

That may be because little Transnistria -- despite its population of a mere 350,000 -- remains quite useful to Moscow as it is. The Russians have used the existence of the enclave to cause all sorts of trouble for Moldova, which the Kremlin would like to keep in its orbit. To name but one example, Russia allows the Transnistrians to swipe natural gas from the Russian pipeline that crosses their territory. But Moscow sends the bill for the gas to the Moldovan government, which is left to deal with the debt.

An independent Novorossiya may not need to engage in such tomfoolery, though. Merely by coming into being, this new entity would, at a stroke, reduce Ukraine's population and economic power by around half. Rump Ukraine would lose all access to the sea, as well as much of its heavy industry. Skeptics point out that much of that industry is largely obsolete and starved of investment, while eastern Ukraine's population is rapidly ageing -- all of which are good reasons why Moscow probably wouldn't want to assume the direct burden of dealing with such problems by annexing the territory outright. (The bill for absorbing the much smaller Crimea -- population 2 million or so -- is likely to be quite high already.)

Theoretically speaking, then, one can imagine that Russia might be happy to leave Novorossiya on its own (perhaps under the de facto control of some of the Moscow-friendly oligarchs who already control a disproportionate share of eastern Ukrainian industry). In any case, it's not only the gun-toting "little green men" in eastern Ukraine who seem to be keen on the idea. Earlier this week, pro-Russian activists announced the creation of an "Odessa Republic," potentially a first step toward realizing the Novorossiya idea. So far, though, this new entity remains more a creature of the Internet than a political reality. (As far as that goes, Novorossiya also has its own Twitter feed, as well as the odd website devoted to the idea.)

In any case, says Kvasnyuk, snuggling up too close to Russia isn't desirable: Having Moscow as a good friend is already enough. If the government in Kiev tries to intervene, the government of Novorossiya would need only to ask the Kremlin for help: "And then they'd send in the peacekeepers." And why not? It's been done before.
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Is This Putin's Next Target?

After Sunday’s elections in Ukraine, Vladimir Putin may turn his attention westward toward Moldova, where Russia is sending spies, beaming in propaganda—and threatening economic strangulation. It’s all part of an effort to help the Communists there defeat the Liberal Democratic government.

Russia already has 2,500 troops in Moldova’s breakaway territory Transnistria. But Moscow is also looking to take control of the rest of country by influencing the upcoming November elections, which could topple the current Western-friendly government—and replace it with political parties infiltrated and aligned with Moscow. Ever since the Russian successes in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine, Russian interference has only grown; the flow of Russian intelligence forces into Moldova is going up, according to the recently-departed prime minister, who is in Washington this week to ask for help.

“We have seen increased activity of the intelligence forces of the Russia Federation in the Republic of Moldova,” Vladimir Filat, who served as Moldova’s Prime Minister from 2009 to 2013, told The Daily Beast.

Russian intelligence forces are spread out in Moldova in a variety of ways, according to Filat. They are burrowed into Moldovan political parties, non-governmental organizations, and in pro-Russian media outlets, which barrage Russian-speaking Moldovans with the Kremlin’s talking points 24 hours a day.

“They all have one objective: destabilization in order to ‘prepare’ for the elections in autumn,” he said.

Russia has imposed an embargo on export of Moldovan wine into Russia and Moscow is threatening a new embargo on fruit exports, Filat said. Moscow is also threatening to cut off the flow of natural gas to Moldova, a country nearly wholly dependent on Russia for energy. Filat said Moldova would not be deterred from its Western trajectory.

“The Republic of Moldova is now in the process of full European integration… It is vital for Moldova. We don’t have any other alternative,” he said. “We have many challenges and most of these challenges involve pressure from Russia.”

Transnistria has long been an area of concern for Western intelligence agencies. The largely autonomous region is the location of one of the largest conventional weapons stockpiles in the world. For more than a decade, U.S. diplomats have observed signs that Putin has encouraged Transnistria to embrace more independence from Moldova.

There have been multiple reports that Russia has moved new plainclothes personnel into Transnistra in recent weeks, flown into the Moldovan capital of Chisinau directly from Moscow and then bussed over the Moldova-Transnistria boundary line. Last month, some leaders in Transnistria called on Russia to formally recognize them and incorporate them into the Russian Federation.

Filat said he was aware of but could not confirm reports that Russian intelligence forces have been transiting through the Moldovan capital into Transnistria, but said he was concerned Putin could decide to pursue annexation of Transnistria, which would put Russian territories on Ukraine’s eastern and western borders.

“For this moment, the Russians have said publicly that there is no similarity between Transnistria and Crimea but of course this is a pending one, which has only one purpose, which is permanent, constant pressure,” he said.

Filat stepped down as Prime Minister and handed over the title last year to former Foreign Minister Iurie Leanca. But Filat is still the President of the Liberal Democratic Party, which is fighting for the right to continue Moldova on the path to European integration and away from dependence on Russia.

The current government is trying to make as much irreversible progress as possible toward bonding its economy with the EU before the elections in November, by pursuing a visa agreement, a free trade agreement, and candidate status for membership in the European Union. When asked if Moldova should join NATO, Filat said, “Why not?”

It’s highly unlikely that Moldova ill ever join the alliance—especially with some blaming NATO for provoking Putin by moving eastward. Regardless, Filat said, Putin’s recent actions mandate that all countries opposed to Russian aggression stand together and help each other, whether they are formal defense allies or not.

“It is not just about Moldova. We are not members of NATO, but in this case, it doesn’t matter if you are in NATO. We are in this region and we need security,” he added.

The United States has provided some additional money to the Moldovan government for border security since the Ukraine crisis erupted. Mid-level State Department officials have visited to reassure the government that the U.S. government stands beside them. Senior Senators including Senate Foreign Relations Committee ranking Republican Bob Corker and John McCain have also passed through.

Filat said Moldova was appreciative of U.S. assistance but more help, especially on the security side, would surely be welcomed. But more broadly, he is in Washington to argue for a framework of security assurances that isn’t based on membership in any one alliance or organization.

“After events in Crimea, everything was changed. The international guarantee system based on international rules has fallen,” he said. “If our civilization will be united, then we will all have security.”

 
link

The Battle for UkraineComing May 27, 2014 FRONTLINE reveals the deep-seated hatreds between right-wing Ukrainian nationalists with historic ties to the Nazis, and violent pro-Russian separatists vying for control of the country.
 
TheIronSheik said:
[icon] said:
TheIronSheik said:
Putin bolstering ties with North Korea

Nothing to see here.
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At this point I'm not even sure we'd do anything if Putin came across the Bering strait.

"So you're taking over Alaska? When I get back from Camp David I am going to get with my cabinet... but there WILL be repercussions for this!!1!"
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To be fair, no one is more upset about this than he is.
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It sucks to wake up in the morning and while tying your golf shoes find out that there's a crisis at work you may have to deal with.
 
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[icon] said:
TheIronSheik said:
Putin bolstering ties with North Korea

Nothing to see here.
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At this point I'm not even sure we'd do anything if Putin came across the Bering strait.

"So you're taking over Alaska? When I get back from Camp David I am going to get with my cabinet... but there WILL be repercussions for this!!1!"
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:lol: Thinking of Palin sitting on her back porch, screaming into the phone: The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!! I can see the commies crossing the strait right now....."

 
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I'm not saying Putin is hitler or that he has an idea about genicide and world domination, but this play for Ukraine and other former Russian territories lost when the ussr broke up feels similar to hitler's "rationale" for land grabs prior to ww2. No?

 
Leeroy Jenkins said:
I'm not saying Putin is hitler or that he has an idea about genicide and world domination, but this play for Ukraine and other former Russian territories lost when the ussr broke up feels similar to hitler's "rationale" for land grabs prior to ww2. No?
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A Russian academic actually wrote an article saying just that - but in a good way.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/richard-cohen-a-putin-affiliate-evokes-hitler-the-west-should-be-worried/2014/04/21/ddbd3794-c980-11e3-95f7-7ecdde72d2ea_story.html?tid=pm_pop

The head of a think tank associated with Vladimir Putin wrote the following in response to critics who liken the Russian president to Adolf Hitler and what he did so long ago: “One must distinguish between Hitler before 1939 and Hitler after 1939. The thing is that Hitler collected [German] lands. If he had become famous only for uniting without a drop of blood Germany with Austria, Sudetenland and Memel, in fact completing what Bismarck failed to do, and if he had stopped there, then he would have remained a politician of the highest class.”...
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And someone in the German foreign ministry just said that, in a bad way.

Russia's moves against Ukraine were reminiscent of Adolf Hitler's aggression in 1938 that led to the annexation of German-speaking regions of Czechoslovakia, Germany's conservative finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble said on Monday.
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http://news.yahoo.com/german-minister-compares-putins-ukraine-moves-hitler-1938-124208618--business.html

 
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It is similar also in the respect that the world is exhausted from the war on terror stuff and doesn't seem like they want a conflict with Russia. So Putin can just keep pushing. All this combined with the anti-gay laws and crack downs on speech/assembly in Russia of late, and something is a brewing.

 
The State Department said Friday that Russia had sent tanks and other heavy weapons to separatists in Ukraine, supporting accusations Thursday by the Ukrainian government.

A convoy of three T-64 tanks, several BM-21 multiple rocket launchers and other military vehicles crossed the border near the Ukrainian town of Snizhne, State Department officials said. The Ukrainian Army reported Friday that it had destroyed two of the tanks and several other vehicles in the convoy.

“This is unacceptable,” said Marie Harf, the deputy State Department spokeswoman. “A failure by Russia to de-escalate this situation will lead to additional costs.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/world/europe/ukraine-claims-full-control-of-port-city-of-mariupol.html
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Nothing to see here,move along!

 
CNN) -- Europeans leaders Saturday held telephone talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin after a Ukrainian military plane was shot down by separatists, killing all 49 people on board, officials said.

The Ilyushin-76 military transport plane went down early Saturday while approaching an airport in the eastern Ukrainian city of Luhansk, said military spokesman Vladislav Seleznyov from the anti-terror operation unit.

The attack represents one of the bloodiest single events in that nation's current period of turmoil.

In a statement, Ukraine's defense ministry said the plane, which was transporting military personnel, was shot down by insurgents using anti-aircraft machine guns.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/14/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
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France has really done it this time — the country is apparently going ahead with a plan to sell Russia two Mistral-class amphibious assault ships, a move which is understandably none too popular with NATO and its member states, who understandably wonder if this is the best time for NATO to be arming Russia.

Or to paraphrase Vladimir Lenin, NATO wonders whether it's selling Russia the rope with which Russia will hang it.

The Mistral is a modern, advanced amphibious assault ship capable of carrying up to 900 troops, a tank battalion, and 16 to 35 helicopters. While not the largest amphibious-support ships out there, they're still very serious ships that could play an important role in a very serious amphibious force. Even aside from their utility as combat platforms, their large size and wide range of capabilities — each ship includes an onboard hospital that could serve a city of 25,000 people — gives the vessels enormous potential in a wide range of soft-power roles. Not only are they great ships, they make great gifts!

...
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https://news.vice.com/article/why-is-france-building-warships-for-russia

Ah the French, gotta love `em. Amazing.

Of course Russia was disinvited from the G8/G7 but somehow Putin still showed up in Brussels to dine and meet with Hollande at the event. Way to hold that line Francois!

 
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Slapdash said:
Leeroy Jenkins said:
After this latest episode of Vice, I'm kind of scared of Russia's motives going forward even more
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cliff notes?
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They are claiming areas of the arctic and doing military exercises with 70,000 troops in preparation of an arctic conflict. The US and Norway have like 16,000 doing similar war games. Violating NATO and provoking those northern countries regarding what is theirs. All about oil reserves becoming available due to melting ice.

 
Ukraine says Russia has cut off all gas supplies to Kiev, in a major escalation of a dispute between the two nations.

"Gas supplies to Ukraine have been reduced to zero," Ukrainian Energy Minister Yuri Prodan said.

Russia's state-owned gas giant Gazprom said Ukraine had to pay upfront for its gas supplies, after Kiev failed to settle its huge debt.

Gazprom had sought from Kiev $1.95bn (£1.15bn) - out of $4.5bn it says it is owed - by 06:00 GMT.

The Russian firm said it would continue to supply gas to Europe.

Russia-Ukraine ties remain tense since Moscow annexed Crimea in February.

Kiev says Moscow backs separatists in the east of the country. Russia denies the charge.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27862849
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Meanwhile in Ukraine

KIEV, June 19 (Reuters) - Ukrainian troops and pro-Russian separatists were locked in fierce fighting in the east of Ukraine on Thursday after rebels rejected a call to lay down their arms in line with a peace plan proposed by President Petro Poroshenko, government forces said.

Heavy fighting broke out at around 4 a.m. (0100 gm) near the town of Krasny Liman, which itself has been under government control since early this month.

"We issued an ultimatum to the terrorists overnight to surrender their weapons. We guarantee their safety and investigation in line with Ukrainian law ... They refused," said government forces spokesman Vladyslav Seleznyov.

"Now we are trying to narrow the encirclement. They are trying to break out," Seleznyov said.

No details of the fighting were immediately available from the rebels side.

Poroshenko, installed as a president on June 7, is pushing a peace plan to end the separatist rebellion including an offer of a unilateral ceasefire by government forces and amnesty for the separatists as long as they put down their weapons.

Poroshenko was due later on Thursday to meet regional officials from the Donetsk and Luhansk areas of eastern Ukraine to explain his plan - though he rules out meeting separatists.

Separatist rebellions erupted in eastern Ukraine in early April after street protests in Kiev toppled the Moscow-backed leader Viktor Yanukovich and Russia in turn annexed the Crimean peninsula. Eastern rebels have called for union with Russia.

Kiev has accused Russia of fomenting the unrest in the east and of allowing volunteer fighters from Russia to cross into Ukraine to support the rebels. This is denied by Moscow.


"TRUCE REFUSED"

The violence has cost the lives of 147 Ukrainian soldiers and wounded 267 up to now, the defense ministry said on Wednesday. But many scores of separatist militia, civilians and members of other military bodies such as the national guard have also been killed and the overall death toll is much higher.

Ukrainian forces, which lost 49 servicemen on June 14 when separatists brought down a military helicopter in Luhansk region, have been gradually tightening their encirclement of rebel positions to the south and east of Krasny Liman including the rebel stronghold of Slaviansk.

Up to 4,000 separatist fighters could be involved in Thursday's fighting near Krasny Liman, and armored vehicles and possibly tanks were being used by both sides, the military source said.

The reported use of tanks could not be independently confirmed.

Military sources said the Ukrainian forces had fired leaflets into rebel areas giving them an ultimatum to lay down their weapons in line with the Poroshenko blueprint.

"When they received a refusal, the forces of the anti-terrorist operation went over to active action," Dmytro Tymchuk, a military analyst with good sources in the military said.

"There's a major battle going on which exceeds in terms of force and scale anything there has been up to now," a military source said.

Olesya, a woman in the village of Yampil near Krasny Liman, said Ukrainian forces had entered the village in armored vehicles bearing the Ukrainian flag.

"There's been no shooting. We residents went out into the street to watch the column - and then went back to hide in our houses again," she said by telephone from her house where she was with her husband and five-year-old daughter.

"But there was fighting all night. Mines were flying over our heads. Planes flew over and we could hear heavy weapons. It's awful what is going on here," she said.

"There is an ongoing active phase of the ATO (anti-terrorist operation) in the region of Krasny Liman," said Seleznyov

Asked about the report that 4,000 separatists could be involved, Seleznyov, the government forces spokesman, replied: "Then, there'll be 4,000 coffins".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/19/ukraine-separatists-truce_n_5510376.html
Click to expand...
 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Asked about the report that 4,000 separatists could be involved, Seleznyov, the government forces spokesman, replied: "Then, there'll be 4,000 coffins".
Click to expand...
Well.
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Yeah that was certainly a pretty blunt statement.Was kinda shocked to see it to be honest which was why I pointed it out but I guess with Iraq dominating the headlines this is just old news.

 
tom22406 said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Asked about the report that 4,000 separatists could be involved, Seleznyov, the government forces spokesman, replied: "Then, there'll be 4,000 coffins".
Click to expand...
Well.
Click to expand...
Yeah that was certainly a pretty blunt statement.Was kinda shocked to see it to be honest which was why I pointed it out but I guess with Iraq dominating the headlines this is just old news.
Click to expand...
It does seem like everyone is pushing forward aggressively on the USA all at once.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
tom22406 said:
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Asked about the report that 4,000 separatists could be involved, Seleznyov, the government forces spokesman, replied: "Then, there'll be 4,000 coffins".
Click to expand...
Well.
Click to expand...
Yeah that was certainly a pretty blunt statement.Was kinda shocked to see it to be honest which was why I pointed it out but I guess with Iraq dominating the headlines this is just old news.
Click to expand...
It does seem like everyone is pushing forward aggressively on the USA all at once.
Click to expand...
This may be our last chance to retain world dominance. I say we take Kumchatka.

 
Couple updates, per stuff I've seen on CNN lately.

Russia is actually physically launching weapons from Russian territory over the border into Ukraine now. This is a serious escalation.

Also - Russia has massed about 15,000 soldiers directly on the border. This is also an escalation of things.

It appears that while Ukraine was making big strides militarily with its limited but effective punching out of the separatist whackamoles, and had gotten a big momentum swing in their favor with the big misstep by the Russians in the downing of the airliner, the Russian military and extremist nationalists are now pushing back.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Russia Steps Up Help for Rebels in Ukraine WarKIEV, Ukraine — Rather than backing down after last week’s downing of a civilian passenger jet, Russia appears to be intervening more aggressively in the war in eastern Ukraine in what American and Ukrainian officials call a dangerous escalation that will almost certainly force more robust retaliation from the United States and Europe.

Russia has increased its direct involvement in fighting between the Ukrainian military and separatist insurgents, moving more of its own troops to the border and preparing to arm the rebels with ever more potent weapons, including high-powered Tornado rocket launchers, American and Ukrainian officials said on Friday.

The officials, citing satellite images and other military intelligence, said that Russia had positioned heavy weapons, including tanks and other combat vehicles, at several points along the border where there has been intense fighting. On Thursday, Russia unleashed artillery attacks on eastern Ukraine from Russian territory, officials in Washington and Kiev said. While Russia flatly denied accelerating its intervention on Friday, American and Ukrainian officials said Moscow appeared anxious to stem gains by government forces that have succeeded in retaking some rebel-held territory.

The reported Russian moves raised the prospect of a new and more perilous chapter opening in a conflict that has already inflamed the region and, with the destruction of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 with 298 aboard, stunned the world. American officials blamed a Russian-provided surface-to-air missile for the explosion and hoped the shock of the episode would prompt the Kremlin to rethink its approach, but they are increasingly convinced it has not.

Obama administration officials said Russia’s rising involvement had stiffened the resolve of European leaders who have been reluctant to confront Moscow for fear of damaging their own economies. But there was no appetite for a direct military response, and it remained unclear whether the West could or would take action that may change the calculus of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia as Moscow seems to devote more firepower to the fight.

American and Ukrainian officials said Russia has moved beyond simply helping separatists and is now engaging directly in the war. Multiple Ukrainian military planes have been brought down in recent days by missiles fired from Russian territory, and now artillery batteries are firing from across the border into Ukraine, the officials said.

“We have detected that firing and that does represent an escalation in this conflict,” said Josh Earnest, the White House press secretary. “It only underscores the concerns that the United States and the international community has about Russian behavior and the need for the Putin regime to change their strategy.”

American officials said Russia has moved 15,000 troops near the border. Col. Steve Warren, a Pentagon spokesman, told reporters that Russia had made “imminent” plans to deliver heavier rockets to the separatists. Instead of Mr. Putin de-escalating the conflict after the Malaysia Airlines tragedy, “he’s actually taken a decision to escalate,” Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told a security forum in Aspen, Colo.


Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr. called President Petro O. Poroshenko of Ukraine to express solidarity and pledge to coordinate with allies “about imposing further costs on Russia for its deeply destabilizing and irresponsible actions in Ukraine,” the White House said in a statement.

While the United States has been hesitant to make its intelligence public, Ukrainian officials have provided a daily, running list of Russian incursions, including flights into Ukrainian air space by fighter jets and unmanned surveillance drones, as well as mortar and rocket attacks.

“We have facts of shelling of Ukrainian positions from the territory of Russian Federation,” Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for Ukraine’s National Security and Defense Council, said at a briefing in Kiev on Friday. “We have facts on the violation of air border between Ukraine and Russia.”

Mr. Lysenko said there were active-duty Russian soldiers who had surrendered, as well as volunteer Russian fighters who had been captured. “We have information about weapons and mercenaries who have respective skills for warfare, who have been passing over from the territory of the Russian Federation,” Mr. Lysenko said.

Russia pointedly denied the American allegations on Friday. In a statement, the Russian Foreign Ministry accused the United States of engaging in a “smear campaign.”

“All of this is accompanied by references to some ‘evidence’ allegedly available to the United States,” the ministry said. “Not one of these ‘evidences,’ however, has been shown, which is not surprising. Facts and specifics to support false allegations simply do not exist.”

On Friday, the European Union took another step toward imposing additional economic penalties focused on the financial, energy and military sectors of the Russian economy, but a letter to European leaders from Herman Van Rompuy, the president of the European Council, made clear that officials were still struggling to find a balance.

Mr. Lysenko, the military spokesman, said that Ukrainian troops were coming under increased fire from the Russian side of the border, and that the Ukrainian military had recently shot down three Russian surveillance drones. One was used to target a Ukrainian base near the town of Amvrosiivka, which then quickly came under heavy rocket attack, he said.

Ukrainian officials say their forces have recaptured at least 10 towns, shrinking the amount of territory under rebel control in the embattled regions of Luhansk and Donetsk and gaining substantial advantage, including over some of the main highways in the region.

The recent gains by Ukrainian forces included the recapture of the city of Lysychansk after days of fighting. The city of more than 100,000 had been a rebel stronghold, and it posed a strategic obstacle to government troops pressing through the Luhansk region from the north and west. Ukrainian ground troops needed air support to expel the rebels, but were able to push them south and out of the city.

Officials have said they believed that they could defeat the rebels within three weeks if there were no further intervention by Russia.

By placing forces close to the border, the Russians can provide fire support to the separatists, prevent Ukrainian troops from establishing control over the border and facilitate the delivery of Russian arms to the separatists. The Ukrainian military has expressed frustration that at least two sections of the border remain porous. One goal of the Russian attacks on targets, an American official said, is to keep Ukrainian forces away from the border, making it easier for Russia to transport weapons and cooperate with the insurgents.

“The quantity and sophistication of weaponry being sent by Russia across the border is increasing,” one Western official said on Friday, adding that Russian artillery units have been firing into Ukraine from Russian territory “in direct support of separatists.” Like other officials with access to classified intelligence assessments, he spoke on the condition of anonymity.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/26/world/europe/russian-artillery-fires-into-ukraine-kiev-says.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSum&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

 
Pretty sure Russia started the escalation in Gaza to distract us from what's going on in the Ukraine. Wouldn't be surprised if they had a hand in Iraq either.

 
timschochet said:
Politician Spock said:
http://news.yahoo.com/us-russia-fired-rockets-ukraine-151819521--politics.html
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Once again, I have trouble finding fault in what the Obama administration is doing: condemning Russia's actions publicly, trying to convince Eutope to lay down further sanctions. What else should we do? This is the correct response.
Click to expand...
A little defensive lately towards Obama huh Tim? I just see that link as adding to the thread with information. :shrug:

 
Last edited by a moderator:
snogger said:
timschochet said:
Politician Spock said:
http://news.yahoo.com/us-russia-fired-rockets-ukraine-151819521--politics.html
Click to expand...
Once again, I have trouble finding fault in what the Obama administration is doing: condemning Russia's actions publicly, trying to convince Eutope to lay down further sanctions. What else should we do? This is the correct response.
Click to expand...
A little defensive lately towards Obama huh Tim?I just see that link as adding to the thread with information. :shrug:
Click to expand...
Actually I've been critical of Obama recently. But it's difficult because most of his critics in this country, are IMO, so over the top. A recent poll shows that 57% of Republicans want Obama impeached. 57%!! And people are ripping him for this foreign policy stuff, without offering an alternative.

Your correct that the link is descriptive, not critical. But my response was to the overall criticism.

 
snogger said:
timschochet said:
Politician Spock said:
http://news.yahoo.com/us-russia-fired-rockets-ukraine-151819521--politics.html
Click to expand...
Once again, I have trouble finding fault in what the Obama administration is doing: condemning Russia's actions publicly, trying to convince Eutope to lay down further sanctions. What else should we do? This is the correct response.
Click to expand...
A little defensive lately towards Obama huh Tim?I just see that link as adding to the thread with information. :shrug:
Click to expand...
I have no f'ing idea why he claimed I found fault in Obama. In fact, I have no idea why he says 90% of what he says when he responds to me. I spend more time defending myself from things I never said, than I do defending what I said.

 
Politician Spock said:
snogger said:
timschochet said:
Politician Spock said:
http://news.yahoo.com/us-russia-fired-rockets-ukraine-151819521--politics.html
Click to expand...
Once again, I have trouble finding fault in what the Obama administration is doing: condemning Russia's actions publicly, trying to convince Eutope to lay down further sanctions. What else should we do? This is the correct response.
Click to expand...
A little defensive lately towards Obama huh Tim?I just see that link as adding to the thread with information. :shrug:
Click to expand...
I have no f'ing idea why he claimed I found fault in Obama. In fact, I have no idea why he says 90% of what he says when he responds to me. I spend more time defending myself from things I never said, than I do defending what I said.
Click to expand...
I wasn't responding to you. I was responding to the link you posted- I read it, and thought that Obama was doing a good job, and decided to post that because he had received so much criticism over this. I wasn't trying to argue with YOU.

 
timschochet said:
snogger said:
timschochet said:
Politician Spock said:
http://news.yahoo.com/us-russia-fired-rockets-ukraine-151819521--politics.html
Click to expand...
Once again, I have trouble finding fault in what the Obama administration is doing: condemning Russia's actions publicly, trying to convince Eutope to lay down further sanctions. What else should we do? This is the correct response.
Click to expand...
A little defensive lately towards Obama huh Tim?I just see that link as adding to the thread with information. :shrug:
Click to expand...
Actually I've been critical of Obama recently. But it's difficult because most of his critics in this country, are IMO, so over the top. A recent poll shows that 57% of Republicans want Obama impeached. 57%!! And people are ripping him for this foreign policy stuff, without offering an alternative.

Your correct that the link is descriptive, not critical. But my response was to the overall criticism.
Click to expand...
:lmao:

 
3nOut said:
I don't visit the Free for All very often, but this topic interests me greatly. What did I miss?
Click to expand...
Updates:

  • Russia now firing missiles / artillery from across the Russian border.
  • Russia actively recruiting from within Russia and sending soldiers into Ukraine to fight for/with the separatists.
  • Putin continues to tweak/mock Obama.
  • US ramps up economic sanctions following EU's lead.
  • The airplane crash site is still not cleaned up.
 
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