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Politics and War in Ukraine (2 Viewers)
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
No One
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
On December 15, Ukrainian religious leaders will hold a “unification assembly” to lay the groundwork for the new church and choose its leader.
In what seems like something from several centuries ago apparently the schism between the Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox churches may be used as a pretext for war.
In what seems like something from several centuries ago apparently the schism between the Ukrainian and Russian Orthodox churches may be used as a pretext for war.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Current situation in the village of Pisky.
- Just an occasional reminder that there is an ongoing war in Europe.
- Just an occasional reminder that there is an ongoing war in Europe.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Update: Russian forces attacked along nine towns on the edges of Donbas and Donetsk.
- Pavlopil, Vodyane, Lebedynske, and Shyrokyne are on the outskirts or Mariupol, a city of a half million people.
- Pavlopil, Vodyane, Lebedynske, and Shyrokyne are on the outskirts or Mariupol, a city of a half million people.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I think it's a mix. From what I have read Russian command, regular troops and technical support are basically driving it.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
In Ukraine, the promise of transformative change falls apart
**********
Through three rounds of elections in Ukraine last spring and summer, the people of Ukraine used the power of the ballot box to overwhelmingly support the candidacy of Volodymyr Zelensky, a TV personality who coincidentally rose to fame playing the role of a fictional president.
What was clear from the results in what was generally a fair election is that a broad cross-section of Ukrainians were hoping that Mr. Zelensky would begin reform of an oligarchic, corrupt system of governance and end Russia’s occupation of the Crimea and Donbas region.
The opportunity for transformative change was at hand. There was optimism that with the support of key players in the international community, the reinforcement of independence of a strong, united Ukraine would be a counterpoint to the efforts of Vladimir Putin to control the strategic region of Eastern Europe and would offer an example of a functioning democracy, in contrast to the authoritarianism in Russia.
Alas, that promise is beginning to go astray. The corrupt political agenda of Donald Trump has embroiled Mr. Zelensky in Washington’s political furor. Mr. Zelensky’s reputation has been besmirched by showing him trapped as an accomplice in Mr. Trump’s efforts to investigate Joe Biden and his son.
One can sympathize with the Ukrainian President feeling vulnerable to extortion by a hold-back of needed military support. It doesn’t excuse him from his efforts to whitewash the clear intent of Mr. Trump to betray the constitutional standards on non-interference in the domestic elections of the United States.
This Trumpian imbroglio has been compounded by Mr. Zelensky’s acquiescence to pressures from France and Germany to adopt what’s known as the Steinmeier formula, granting autonomy to Donbas. Many in Ukraine see this as clear capitulation. Russian politicians described the signing of the deal in principle as a victory for Russian diplomacy.
So rather than a co-ordinated, constructive, combined approach from countries favourable to Ukraine that secures the principles set forth in the 2014 revolution, the Zelensky government must contend with the grubby, self-serving calculations of its so-called friends.
To further complicate matters, in Ukraine (a country largely missing an appropriate system of accountability), the Zelensky-dominated Parliament has adopted a judicial-reform law that essentially places the judiciary under the control of the executive.
This resulted in an appeal by the ambassadors of Canada, Britain, Germany and the EU to the Speaker of Ukraine’s Parliament, Dmytro Razumkov, expressing concerns about the suppressive elements of amendments in judicial reform. The American Chamber of Commerce in Ukraine and the European Business Association have called on Mr. Zelensky to veto the law passed by his own party’s majority.
The actions of Mr. Zelensky’s government appear aimed at establishing a regime in Ukraine where the checks and balances necessary for a working democracy do not exist. An attempt to build a state in which the President and his administration control all branches of government, media, business and society is a worrisome development.
And where is Canada in these low-grade manipulations? Ukraine, since its independence, has been a key priority for both Liberal and Conservative governments. Canada made a major investment, including a large contingent of dedicated Canadians who gave of their time to support the integrity of the election process. The importance of Ukraine is clearly recognized.
Discussion of the future relationship between Canada and Ukraine was largely absent during the federal election campaign, however. But bipartisan agreement on active engagement with Ukraine could be a unifying cause in the new House of Commons.
In a recent speech, Prime Minister Mark Rutte of the Netherlands called for a more concerted and creative action by middle powers to fill the gap left by the stalemate of the big powers and the breakdown of multi-lateral co-operation. He said, “We have to respond to the shifting global balance of power. As middle powers, we must act in concert if we want to make sure our voices are heard.”
Mr. Zelensky must hear these voices challenging the meddling of the Americans and some Europeans. Ukraine needs to receive resources and aid that reinforce anti-corruption efforts, economic renewal and the preservation of its independence. Most crucially, Mr. Zelensky must return to the path of democratic reform and defence of Ukraine’s national interest against Russia’s invasion.
Further backsliding will quickly lead to loss of domestic support. Ukraine needs to know that they are important to others – not as a pawn, but as a partner.
**********
**********
Through three rounds of elections in Ukraine last spring and summer, the people of Ukraine used the power of the ballot box to overwhelmingly support the candidacy of Volodymyr Zelensky, a TV personality who coincidentally rose to fame playing the role of a fictional president.
What was clear from the results in what was generally a fair election is that a broad cross-section of Ukrainians were hoping that Mr. Zelensky would begin reform of an oligarchic, corrupt system of governance and end Russia’s occupation of the Crimea and Donbas region.
The opportunity for transformative change was at hand. There was optimism that with the support of key players in the international community, the reinforcement of independence of a strong, united Ukraine would be a counterpoint to the efforts of Vladimir Putin to control the strategic region of Eastern Europe and would offer an example of a functioning democracy, in contrast to the authoritarianism in Russia.
Alas, that promise is beginning to go astray. The corrupt political agenda of Donald Trump has embroiled Mr. Zelensky in Washington’s political furor. Mr. Zelensky’s reputation has been besmirched by showing him trapped as an accomplice in Mr. Trump’s efforts to investigate Joe Biden and his son.
One can sympathize with the Ukrainian President feeling vulnerable to extortion by a hold-back of needed military support. It doesn’t excuse him from his efforts to whitewash the clear intent of Mr. Trump to betray the constitutional standards on non-interference in the domestic elections of the United States.
This Trumpian imbroglio has been compounded by Mr. Zelensky’s acquiescence to pressures from France and Germany to adopt what’s known as the Steinmeier formula, granting autonomy to Donbas. Many in Ukraine see this as clear capitulation. Russian politicians described the signing of the deal in principle as a victory for Russian diplomacy.
So rather than a co-ordinated, constructive, combined approach from countries favourable to Ukraine that secures the principles set forth in the 2014 revolution, the Zelensky government must contend with the grubby, self-serving calculations of its so-called friends.
To further complicate matters, in Ukraine (a country largely missing an appropriate system of accountability), the Zelensky-dominated Parliament has adopted a judicial-reform law that essentially places the judiciary under the control of the executive.
This resulted in an appeal by the ambassadors of Canada, Britain, Germany and the EU to the Speaker of Ukraine’s Parliament, Dmytro Razumkov, expressing concerns about the suppressive elements of amendments in judicial reform. The American Chamber of Commerce in Ukraine and the European Business Association have called on Mr. Zelensky to veto the law passed by his own party’s majority.
The actions of Mr. Zelensky’s government appear aimed at establishing a regime in Ukraine where the checks and balances necessary for a working democracy do not exist. An attempt to build a state in which the President and his administration control all branches of government, media, business and society is a worrisome development.
And where is Canada in these low-grade manipulations? Ukraine, since its independence, has been a key priority for both Liberal and Conservative governments. Canada made a major investment, including a large contingent of dedicated Canadians who gave of their time to support the integrity of the election process. The importance of Ukraine is clearly recognized.
Discussion of the future relationship between Canada and Ukraine was largely absent during the federal election campaign, however. But bipartisan agreement on active engagement with Ukraine could be a unifying cause in the new House of Commons.
In a recent speech, Prime Minister Mark Rutte of the Netherlands called for a more concerted and creative action by middle powers to fill the gap left by the stalemate of the big powers and the breakdown of multi-lateral co-operation. He said, “We have to respond to the shifting global balance of power. As middle powers, we must act in concert if we want to make sure our voices are heard.”
Mr. Zelensky must hear these voices challenging the meddling of the Americans and some Europeans. Ukraine needs to receive resources and aid that reinforce anti-corruption efforts, economic renewal and the preservation of its independence. Most crucially, Mr. Zelensky must return to the path of democratic reform and defence of Ukraine’s national interest against Russia’s invasion.
Further backsliding will quickly lead to loss of domestic support. Ukraine needs to know that they are important to others – not as a pawn, but as a partner.
**********
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HellToupee
Footballguy
What is considered a minor incursion??
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Apparently things are getting worse in Ukraine. And apparently Joe Biden learned NOTHING from Afghanistan:
https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1485415912706613249?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1485415912706613249|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fredstate.com%2Fbonchie%2F2022%2F01%2F23%2Fjoe-biden-just-told-americans-in-ukraine-to-go-jump-in-a-lake-n511568
Abandoning American citizens AGAIN. :(
https://twitter.com/JenGriffinFNC/status/1485415912706613249?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1485415912706613249|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fredstate.com%2Fbonchie%2F2022%2F01%2F23%2Fjoe-biden-just-told-americans-in-ukraine-to-go-jump-in-a-lake-n511568
Abandoning American citizens AGAIN. :(
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TripItUp
Footballguy
dozer
Footballguy
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
jamny
Footballguy
Biden Weighs Deploying Thousands of Troops to Eastern Europe and Baltics
The president is also considering deploying warships and aircraft to NATO allies, in what would be a major shift from its restrained stance on Ukraine.
The president is also considering deploying warships and aircraft to NATO allies, in what would be a major shift from its restrained stance on Ukraine.
quick-hands
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
That sucks man. Just sucks. I don’t know #### but I’ve got a bad feeling about all of this.
Putin isn't going to start a war over the Ukraine. He is not stupid. It's a bluff to get NATO and the US to back off in Eastern Europe and increase his popularity in Russia. If he was going to invade the Ukraine he would have done it already, he wouldn't have lined up his troops and waited for the US and NATO to react.
Note: I am no expert, this is just my uninformed opinion.
Note: I am no expert, this is just my uninformed opinion.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I love reading back the hate comments towards Trump on Ukraine/Russia and watch same posters being silent with Biden and the current situation
Max Power
Footballguy
I hear ya. I honestly don't have a good sense of which way this thing is swaying at the moment. The groundwork is being set, but we're definitely not hard spinning up yet.
Historically once we start building out contingency plans we go all in and plan for worst case scenario. We get teams prepped to be anywhere in the world in a moment's notice. We've moved people to be in the right place as a precaution before and it has turned out to be nothing. Better safe than sorry thinking.
Right now we're on edge, but not doing some of the typical things we'd normally do. Pure hunch is that we don't have any real indications of an event or the plan is to stay out of it.
The Commish
Footballguy
If Putin goes forward with any of this, it likely causes countries like Finland, Sweden and Switzerland to join NATO. He definitely doesn't want that.
I agree this is likely all for show. He controls all the media in Russia so he can say whatever he wants and the people will have no real way to verify it. There's nothing here for him to gain by going into Ukraine and everything to lose. He knows this.
The General
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
what would you like to see?
what I will try NOT to do, is judge Biden differently than I judged Trump which of course, was of course my point
Biden looks very very weak right now
The General
Footballguy
I really don't have any opinion of how Trump was treated versus Biden on this and don't really care TBH. This thread was like 40 pages of Obama in any case.
In my view here there is nothing we can really do except the threat of sanctions, align with our allies in the region, provide aid to Ukraine.
Again, what would you like to see done?
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sho nuff
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
As always, thanks for your service and thanks for the insight. It’s truly appreciated.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
me ?
I would stay the hell out of it to be honest .... if Russia is strong enough to conquer Ukraine and the UN is weak enough to allow it and Ukraine doesn't have any bordering countries/allies to help them ... I don't know, what I DONT want is US troops on the ground, billions in taxdollars being sent to Ukraine, or to a an airport ala Obama/Iran deal or anything like that
let the UN handle it - its their job right ? https://www.un.org/en/our-work/maintain-international-peace-and-security
lets take a seat - just for once - and let the UN do it ... oh, sanctions or trade embargo or something sure but overall ? let the UN deal with it, financially, physically, diplomatically ... however they decide
The General
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Biden is weak- the leaving of Afghanistan like he did, he's physical appearances/weakness, his general inability to be a strong president IMO
Biden IS the face of response ..... and so far, it appears Putin is laughing and holding a lets go Brandon sign
Chaz McNulty
Footballguy
The General
Footballguy
James Daulton
Footballguy
Haha. Biden is weak based on his appearance? His leaving Afghanistan? Trump started the Afghanistan withdrawal, remember? And Biden is showing the opposite of weakness, he's showing strength by talking to Putin directly and not just capitulating to him at every turn like Trump. Biden has rallied our allies and is showing strength.
Weakness? You have got to be kidding me.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
part of how a President is gauged is foreign relations, right ?
Biden has said some very strong words towards Russia / Ukraine ..... has he not ? he toed some lines in the sand and IMO Putin will walk over those lines and kick sand in Biden's face in the process and what will Joe do ?
I'd rather have seen Joe simply step back from it all but instead he's fluffing his old worn out tail feathers IMO
Stealthycat
Footballguy
has Putin / Russia / Afghanistan / any country really done anything other than what they wanted to do in the last year ?
serious question
The General
Footballguy
Don't want us involved, no aid...leave it to the UN...Biden is weak for not getting involved. Hmmm.
Putin wants NATO to abandon Ukraine, so he can install another puppet government. That has not happened. So yes, Putin hasn't done what he wanted to do in the last year.
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