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Henry Ford

The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads

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Any tax lawyers here? I'd love to get a day-to-day rundown of what you actually do.

It's March. You won't hear from tax guys for about 60 more days.

Right. Which is why I want to know what the #### they're doing this time of year.... ;)

Tax lawyers? Seriously? I've never known a tax lawyer to be wed to a time of year, or are you just talking about people who deal in individual income taxes? Aren't those generally...accountants?

I oversaw tax at my last job but was no tax lawyer. In that I'm generally dealing with M&A, our tax lawyers are generally structuring deals. Also I worked a lot with people who helped us with our international tax restructuring, researching and helping us set up structures that eventually comprised Singapore and Luxembourg as our primary vehicles. What kind of day-to-day are you talking about?

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Bah, I got sucked into the lawyer thread (which I think comprises 100% litigation types other than me). I don't want to be here. Backing away slowly...or quickly.

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Any tax lawyers here? I'd love to get a day-to-day rundown of what you actually do.

I do mostly tax planning, some work on deals and controversy. Most time spent writing tax opinions; otherwise, doing research.

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How many users here have law degrees anyway?

Do we have and medical doctors other than jene bramel?

Most of them spend their days actually working.

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Good idea. Only way we'll ever kill all the lawyers is if we get them in the same place.

But Tim is here, so there would be collateral damage. :softball:

Most would call that am added bonus.

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How many users here have law degrees anyway?

Do we have and medical doctors other than jene bramel?

Most of them spend their days actually working.

:goodposting:

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How dare you suggest that my fees are reasonable?

Is it acceptable to post stories and reasons in this thread that lead us to believe the profession causes good people to make horrible decisions?

I'll allow it. And then probably explain why you're wrong, but allow it.

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Bah, I got sucked into the lawyer thread (which I think comprises 100% litigation types other than me). I don't want to be here. Backing away slowly...or quickly.

You don't just get to back out of this thread. You're committed now.

If you want out you need to file a motion with the icourt, supported by declarations.

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Bah, I got sucked into the lawyer thread (which I think comprises 100% litigation types other than me). I don't want to be here. Backing away slowly...or quickly.

You don't just get to back out of this thread. You're committed now.

If you want out you need to file a motion with the icourt, supported by declarations.

If she didn't want to post in here, she shouldn't have appeared. I'm not letting her out until she finds substitute counsel.

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Could you all keep Christo in here?

He's out getting duped and starting threads about said duping.

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Also, non-lawyers posting in here: you should identify yourselves. We can use an acronym so it's easy - something like Am Not A Lawyer.

Wait a second, what about those of us that are lawyers in training/baby sharks?

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Also, non-lawyers posting in here: you should identify yourselves. We can use an acronym so it's easy - something like Am Not A Lawyer.

Wait a second, what about those of us that are lawyers in training/baby sharks?

no difference until you pass the bar.
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Also, non-lawyers posting in here: you should identify yourselves. We can use an acronym so it's easy - something like Am Not A Lawyer.

Wait a second, what about those of us that are lawyers in training/baby sharks?

You're the ones we want in here the least.

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Any tax lawyers here? I'd love to get a day-to-day rundown of what you actually do.

It's March. You won't hear from tax guys for about 60 more days.

Right. Which is why I want to know what the #### they're doing this time of year.... ;)

Tax lawyers? Seriously? I've never known a tax lawyer to be wed to a time of year, or are you just talking about people who deal in individual income taxes? Aren't those generally...accountants?

I oversaw tax at my last job but was no tax lawyer. In that I'm generally dealing with M&A, our tax lawyers are generally structuring deals. Also I worked a lot with people who helped us with our international tax restructuring, researching and helping us set up structures that eventually comprised Singapore and Luxembourg as our primary vehicles. What kind of day-to-day are you talking about?

I'm a CPA (ANAL). We deal with attorneys fairly regularly from all across the spectrum....big law, large local, international, all the way down to the small guys. I kinda just wonder what they do every day. In my younger days I'd thought about going back to law school for tax law, but I don't have any desire to do that anymore.

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Bah, I got sucked into the lawyer thread (which I think comprises 100% litigation types other than me). I don't want to be here. Backing away slowly...or quickly.

You don't just get to back out of this thread. You're committed now.

If you want out you need to file a motion with the icourt, supported by declarations.

If she didn't want to post in here, she shouldn't have appeared. I'm not letting her out until she finds substitute counsel.

:rant:

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Bah, I got sucked into the lawyer thread (which I think comprises 100% litigation types other than me). I don't want to be here. Backing away slowly...or quickly.

You don't just get to back out of this thread. You're committed now.

If you want out you need to file a motion with the icourt, supported by declarations.

If she didn't want to post in here, she shouldn't have appeared. I'm not letting her out until she finds substitute counsel.
:rant:
Don't make me hold you in contempt of Ford

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Two lawyers are walking down the beach, see a beautiful woman lying there in the sand.

"Boy," says the first lawyer, "I'd sure like to screw that one!"

The second lawyer says, "Outta what?"

I'm going to use this post as exhibit a when anyone asks me why I'm ruining another thread with lawyer talk.

I tried to start a thread just for lawyers to talk about that stuff, but people just came in and insulted lawyers. So you can thank Tim.

Actually I have nothing but respect for most lawyers. Going to law school and passing the bar are real accomplishments. I considered it but was too lazy (and probably not smart enough.)

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I think I'm appointing Mr. Roboto as our bailiff. It just sounds right.

Edited by Henry Ford

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Two lawyers are walking down the beach, see a beautiful woman lying there in the sand.

"Boy," says the first lawyer, "I'd sure like to screw that one!"

The second lawyer says, "Outta what?"

I'm going to use this post as exhibit a when anyone asks me why I'm ruining another thread with lawyer talk.

I tried to start a thread just for lawyers to talk about that stuff, but people just came in and insulted lawyers. So you can thank Tim.

Actually I have nothing but respect for most lawyers. Going to law school and passing the bar are real accomplishments. I considered it but was too lazy (and probably not smart enough.)
Mr. Roboto, please remove this person. Edited by Henry Ford

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Two lawyers are walking down the beach, see a beautiful woman lying there in the sand.

"Boy," says the first lawyer, "I'd sure like to screw that one!"

The second lawyer says, "Outta what?"

I'm going to use this post as exhibit a when anyone asks me why I'm ruining another thread with lawyer talk.

I tried to start a thread just for lawyers to talk about that stuff, but people just came in and insulted lawyers. So you can thank Tim.

Actually I have nothing but respect for most lawyers. Going to law school and passing the bar are real accomplishments. I considered it but was too lazy (and probably not smart enough.)

The CPA exam kicked the snot out of the bar exam.

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Any tax lawyers here? I'd love to get a day-to-day rundown of what you actually do.

It's March. You won't hear from tax guys for about 60 more days.

Right. Which is why I want to know what the #### they're doing this time of year.... ;)

Tax lawyers? Seriously? I've never known a tax lawyer to be wed to a time of year, or are you just talking about people who deal in individual income taxes? Aren't those generally...accountants?

I oversaw tax at my last job but was no tax lawyer. In that I'm generally dealing with M&A, our tax lawyers are generally structuring deals. Also I worked a lot with people who helped us with our international tax restructuring, researching and helping us set up structures that eventually comprised Singapore and Luxembourg as our primary vehicles. What kind of day-to-day are you talking about?

I'm a CPA (ANAL). We deal with attorneys fairly regularly from all across the spectrum....big law, large local, international, all the way down to the small guys. I kinda just wonder what they do every day. In my younger days I'd thought about going back to law school for tax law, but I don't have any desire to do that anymore.

Don't want to ask the ones you know as you think it might seem offensive? You're going to get very different answers from the groups you mention (as you know since I'm sure you interact with them in different types of situations). I've tended only to interact with BigLaw or in only one case, in- house (don't see many tax lawyers in-house). My impression was tons of research, plus they write and rewrite the parts of securities documents like prospectuses and M&A documents that none of the rest of us read. In M&A they can end up doing a lot of work getting letter rulings and the like, too. I did a Reverse Morris Trust deal (everyone scurries out of the thread), for instance, that was heavily dependent upon this element.

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I think I'm appointing Mr. Roboto as our bailiff. It just sounds right.

I'm game. Especially if I get to use cuffs. ANAL

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There aren't going to be any additional bar dues in here are there? I'm not sure I can handle any further bar tabs dues.

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There arent any real estate lawyers here though are there? RE lawyers bug the #### out of me. I can't count the number of times I had a deal about to be signed, eagerly waiting for a big fat commission, and some dumb #### RE lawyer jumps in and screws everything up.

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There aren't going to be any additional bar dues in here are there? I'm not sure I can handle any further bar tabs dues.

No, but there will be some bull#### waste of time CLE.

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There arent any real estate lawyers here though are there? RE lawyers bug the #### out of me. I can't count the number of times I had a deal about to be signed, eagerly waiting for a big fat commission, and some dumb #### RE lawyer jumps in and screws everything up.

that's because lawyers despise real estate agents of all kinds, and unlike most of the public, we have the ability to #### with them.

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There arent any real estate lawyers here though are there? RE lawyers bug the #### out of me. I can't count the number of times I had a deal about to be signed, eagerly waiting for a big fat commission, and some dumb #### RE lawyer jumps in and screws everything up.

that's because lawyers despise real estate agents of all kinds, and unlike most of the public, we have the ability to #### with them.

And you exercise that ability every chance you get.

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I don't despise real estate agents, but I don't do real estate law. tim, are you an agent? Commercial, residential, both?

Edited by krista4

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I don't despise real estate agents, but I don't do real estate law. tim, are you an agent? Commercial, residential, both?

Commercial.

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I don't despise real estate agents, but I don't do real estate law. tim, are you an agent? Commercial, residential, both?

Commercial.

Gotcha. I guess I can understand why commercial agents and lawyers hate each other.

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How dare you suggest that my fees are reasonable?

Is it acceptable to post stories and reasons in this thread that lead us to believe the profession causes good people to make horrible decisions?

I'll allow it. And then probably explain why you're wrong, but allow it.

Your assumption is that I'm wrong? Okay. Sounds like you're pre-programmed to be on the defensive. Noted.

I don't wish to generalize to all lawyers. I know there are many types that do many different jobs. I have two experiences with lawyers that have shaped my perceptions. I understand those are anecdotal, but its what I have to go on. In both instances I witnessed lawyers drag out disputes for as long as possible. Neither lawyer wanted to find an amicable solution in either dispute. Neither wished to help either party find a resolution. The lawyers involved had a financial incentive to drag these disputes out as long as possible. All the lawyers involved stoked the fires of mistrust at every turn. When parties on either side expressed interest in negotiation, even peaceful negotiations, the lawyers in all cases encouraged what I can only describe as "hostile" replies. The long term intent was always to extend the dispute seeking a court room, and judge, and more importantly continuances and delays.

The bolded above is my claim. Lawyers have a financial incentive to make sure disputes aren't resolved quickly. Like I said, my perception is possible skewed due to two different experiences, but I doubt this is up for debate.

Are all lawyers evil money hungry villains? Of course not, but this scenario of dragging out cases resulting in a financial gain can lead to good people making horrible decisions. No?

I don't wish to generalize all math teachers, but ####. You're out of your depth again.

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How dare you suggest that my fees are reasonable?

Is it acceptable to post stories and reasons in this thread that lead us to believe the profession causes good people to make horrible decisions?

I'll allow it. And then probably explain why you're wrong, but allow it.

Your assumption is that I'm wrong? Okay. Sounds like you're pre-programmed to be on the defensive. Noted.

I don't wish to generalize to all lawyers. I know there are many types that do many different jobs. I have two experiences with lawyers that have shaped my perceptions. I understand those are anecdotal, but its what I have to go on. In both instances I witnessed lawyers drag out disputes for as long as possible. Neither lawyer wanted to find an amicable solution in either dispute. Neither wished to help either party find a resolution. The lawyers involved had a financial incentive to drag these disputes out as long as possible. All the lawyers involved stoked the fires of mistrust at every turn. When parties on either side expressed interest in negotiation, even peaceful negotiations, the lawyers in all cases encouraged what I can only describe as "hostile" replies. The long term intent was always to extend the dispute seeking a court room, and judge, and more importantly continuances and delays.

The bolded above is my claim. Lawyers have a financial incentive to make sure disputes aren't resolved quickly. Like I said, my perception is possible skewed due to two different experiences, but I doubt this is up for debate.

Are all lawyers evil money hungry villains? Of course not, but this scenario of dragging out cases resulting in a financial gain can lead to good people making horrible decisions. No?

Sounds like the horrible decision may have been the choice in lawyers.

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There arent any real estate lawyers here though are there? RE lawyers bug the #### out of me. I can't count the number of times I had a deal about to be signed, eagerly waiting for a big fat commission, and some dumb #### RE lawyer jumps in and screws everything up.

that's because lawyers despise real estate agents of all kinds, and unlike most of the public, we have the ability to #### with them.

And you exercise that ability every chance you get.

And you often deserve it.

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How dare you suggest that my fees are reasonable?

Is it acceptable to post stories and reasons in this thread that lead us to believe the profession causes good people to make horrible decisions?

I'll allow it. And then probably explain why you're wrong, but allow it.

Your assumption is that I'm wrong? Okay. Sounds like you're pre-programmed to be on the defensive. Noted.

I don't wish to generalize to all lawyers. I know there are many types that do many different jobs. I have two experiences with lawyers that have shaped my perceptions. I understand those are anecdotal, but its what I have to go on. In both instances I witnessed lawyers drag out disputes for as long as possible. Neither lawyer wanted to find an amicable solution in either dispute. Neither wished to help either party find a resolution. The lawyers involved had a financial incentive to drag these disputes out as long as possible. All the lawyers involved stoked the fires of mistrust at every turn. When parties on either side expressed interest in negotiation, even peaceful negotiations, the lawyers in all cases encouraged what I can only describe as "hostile" replies. The long term intent was always to extend the dispute seeking a court room, and judge, and more importantly continuances and delays.

The bolded above is my claim. Lawyers have a financial incentive to make sure disputes aren't resolved quickly. Like I said, my perception is possible skewed due to two different experiences, but I doubt this is up for debate.

Are all lawyers evil money hungry villains? Of course not, but this scenario of dragging out cases resulting in a financial gain can lead to good people making horrible decisions. No?

what you're describing is unethical behavior. An attorney engaging in unethical behavior does not do so because the profession made him.instead, it is far more likely that the attorney was unethical before joining the profession. Edited by Henry Ford

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also, believing that my opinion of my profession after practicing for many years is probably more informed than your opinion of my profession after being involved in two lawsuits does not make me pre programmed.

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Hooper, I am not a lawyer but I work closely with them and I can tell you straight out that most lawyers absolutely prefer to settle rather than go to court. That doesn't mean that either side will capitulate just to avoid trial but if there's a settlement to be had they'll take it with pleasure. Doesn't mean there aren't evil, money hungry, jackholes out there but most are out to help their client more than to aggrandize themselves

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what you're describing is unethical behavior. An attorney engaging in unethical behavior does not do so because the profession made him.instead, it is far more likely that the attorney was unethical before joining the profession.

I subscribe to Philip Zambardo's philosophy with regard to why good people sometimes do bad things. Situations and circumstances can result in slimey behavior. I think those circumstances occur more or less often in various professions. Do you disagree?

There's a spectrum of talents and temperaments and ethics among lawyers just as there is in any other profession and in humanity in general.

As with most people, lawyers are influenced by a variety of factors in how they handle cases. Some see themselves as crusaders (and generally these types are a royal PIA to deal with), while others are pragmatists. Some are indeed milking cases/clients for all the fees they can get; others just suck at evaluating cases and so they, plagued by self-doubt or confusion, default to being "tough litigators" who don't agree to anything.

Your anecdotes are just that, anecdotes, and I have no reason to disbelieve them having seen in my own practice examples of those sorts of cases. Typically, however, it's a combination of the client and the economics of the case that drives this from the lawyer's perspective. If they can recover attorneys fees as part of the recoverable damages, for example, they tend to litigate more aggressively. Ditto for having clients who can pay (big law takes advantage of this all the time and is known for papering the hell out of cases for deep-pocketed clients and doing little to drive the case along.

My experience is that the most efficient litigators tend to be plaintiffs lawyers working on contingency (who won't get paid unless/until they settle or prevail at trial), and (believe it or not) insurance defense counsel who, while getting paid by insurance carriers, also nowadays tend to get hounded about their billing by the ever-more common and aggressive billing auditors. I've worked in both capacities. Good lawyers push cases along to conclusion, and just because a lawyer doesn't agree with you that settling a case makes sense, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're unreasonable.

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what you're describing is unethical behavior. An attorney engaging in unethical behavior does not do so because the profession made him.instead, it is far more likely that the attorney was unethical before joining the profession.

I subscribe to Philip Zambardo's philosophy with regard to why good people sometimes do bad things. Situations and circumstances can result in slimey behavior. I think those circumstances occur more or less often in various professions. Do you disagree?

I disagree with the idiotic and insulting suggestion that lawyers violate an oath they took when joining the profession as a result of working on an hourly basis. Also with your spelling of the word slimy.

Lawyers are, for the most part, the most ethical group of people you will run across. Bar none. A profession filled with people who don't give in to the most obvious of temptations over and over and over again. Are there exceptions? Of course. But let me give you an example.

Right now, today, I am a signatory on an account with more money in it than most people will ever make in their lives. And that their children will ever make in their lives. If I wrote a check on that account, the bank would call one person to verify whether the check was legit: me. The persons who are entitled to that money have no idea how much originally went in, not how much they are entitled to yet.

I could write myself a check for seven figures, and in all likelihood, no one would ever have any idea that it was gone. I could write myself a check for eight figures, get that money in cash, and be in Belize before anyone knew it was gone. That is never, ever going to happen.

Now hand that authority over to your gardener.

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Hooper, I am not a lawyer but I work closely with them and I can tell you straight out that most lawyers absolutely prefer to settle rather than go to court. That doesn't mean that either side will capitulate just to avoid trial but if there's a settlement to be had they'll take it with pleasure. Doesn't mean there aren't evil, money hungry, jackholes out there but most are out to help their client more than to aggrandize themselves

Most "litigators" rarely go to trial...mostly because it's hard, and it cuts into profits.

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Hooper, I am not a lawyer but I work closely with them and I can tell you straight out that most lawyers absolutely prefer to settle rather than go to court. That doesn't mean that either side will capitulate just to avoid trial but if there's a settlement to be had they'll take it with pleasure. Doesn't mean there aren't evil, money hungry, jackholes out there but most are out to help their client more than to aggrandize themselves

Most "litigators" rarely go to trial...mostly because it's hard, and it cuts into profits.

And because juries aren't all that reliable.

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Lawyers are, for the most part, the most ethical group of people you will run across.

Thanks for quickly ending the conversation. Have a nice day.

Sorry to hear your insulting notions about lawyers aren't popular in a thread full of lawyers. Don't let the door hit you too hard.

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Hooper, I am not a lawyer but I work closely with them and I can tell you straight out that most lawyers absolutely prefer to settle rather than go to court. That doesn't mean that either side will capitulate just to avoid trial but if there's a settlement to be had they'll take it with pleasure. Doesn't mean there aren't evil, money hungry, jackholes out there but most are out to help their client more than to aggrandize themselves

Most "litigators" rarely go to trial...mostly because it's hard, and it cuts into profits.

And because juries aren't all that reliable.

Jury unpredictability is something lawyers use to talk clients into settling.

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Hooper, I am not a lawyer but I work closely with them and I can tell you straight out that most lawyers absolutely prefer to settle rather than go to court. That doesn't mean that either side will capitulate just to avoid trial but if there's a settlement to be had they'll take it with pleasure. Doesn't mean there aren't evil, money hungry, jackholes out there but most are out to help their client more than to aggrandize themselves

Most "litigators" rarely go to trial...mostly because it's hard, and it cuts into profits.

And because juries aren't all that reliable.

:lol:

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